How many dogs per year do reputable breeders breed?
Since this was brought up in another post. Maybe this can be addressed in an informational capacity and not in a derogatory fashion. Maybe this is personal? I don't know. If it is I would not expect an answer. Anything we can learn that can keep our community in harmony is good. For example you have how many different breeders at Westminster. I wonder what's the average amount of puppies produced by those breeders in a year or two year period. Maybe we'll get some information that can put a perspective on things. |
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| I would think that it really depends on the breeder, their experience, their energy level, the support they have in their home, etc. I know I couldn't do it, one puppy is enough for me but then I am a lazybones at heart. |
| I think it would also depend on how many dogs they keep; how many they share ownership with, and what their overall plan is. But I'm completely unexperienced in this regard, so I think its a good question and I wonder what factors influence the decision! |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I think it would also depend on how many dogs they keep; how many they share ownership with, and what their overall plan is. But I'm completely unexperienced in this regard, so I think its a good question and I wonder what factors influence the decision! Inexperienced maybe, but insightful as always  You're exactly right. It used to be - in our breed as an example - that we had more (good) breeders breeding more frequently. But between legal efforts to eliminate all breeding and the aging out of the serious OES fanciers, at least in the US AKC litter registrations have continued to decrease steadily for some time now (and that include BYBs) In the past decade we've seen a more than 50% decline. If this continues...? Carl hinted in a different thread that one of the hallmarks of a good breeder is that they actually (1) breed (duh, right?  )and (2) learn from their experiences and improve in their decision-making based on what they learn. The problem with breeding so infrequently, and, frankly, it's all most of us can do, is that the learning curve takes a lot longer, even when sharing experiences and learning from other breeders. In the "old days' we had some big breeders, and by this I mean they kept substantial kennels, who bred quite a bit. You'd better believe they knew what was in their lines, eh? That's virtually unheard of now, but it is what it is and I don't see that changing. My co-breeder, and there's a lot more collaborative efforts now, I think, in order to try to keep more lines alive, recently accused me of not being a breeder. I can't really argue with her as a litter every five years barely qualifies. She hasn't bred one in over 4 years herself, with nothing planned that I know of. She's getting older, it's a tremendous amount of work, I do understand, even as it scares me a little. looking down the road. Yet rescue doctrine has us believing that the only good breeder is a (no, not dead one, I hope ) breeder who breeds so sparingly and only for themselves that there are virtually no pet puppies available. And it's sacriledge to actually ever make any money off a litter because we should all be doing this strictly out of our love for the breed and have the deep pockets to back it up, I guess. Hm.  Bottomline is you can't peg breeders (of any kind) by the number of puppies they produce but by the thought that goes into those puppies, the care and the follow-up. Numbers are a much easier measure to go by, but not a realistic one, though this is unfortunately what much of the anti-breeder legislation is aimed at because it's more easily measured. Kristine |
| I've been pondering about a couple of trends that are related to this question. 1) We receive a "Dogs Canada" magazine as part of one of our kennel memberships, generally a light fun read, and with many many ads from breeders (they usually pick 3 breeds to focus on per issue so those 3 breeds tend to predominant the ads for that issue). Some of the most extravagant, 1 or 2 full page breeder ads really try to stress the mystique, the exclusiveness of their grand champion breeding bitch (GCBB). A lot of very florid language and usually something along the lines of "and there may, just possibly, be a litter available from GCBB this year..." I understand the breeder wants to promote their line as the Rolls Royce of whatever breed. Sure. But I don't think this attitude is very helpful for the breed. I can just imagine the average family that is looking for a family dog will look at an ad like this and think "er, we just want a family dog, not a Rolls Royce, obviously this champion dog will be too expensive and not right for us, we just want a dog to play in the yard and slobber on the couch." Then they see an ad in Craiglist "Puppies, great family pets, 500 bucks". And they get that puppy instead who ends up being a puppy mill dog. So I think that kind of attitude could be a turn-off and detrimental to the breed sending people to puppy mills and BYB. If all the respectable breeders make it seem like they sell Rolls Royce when the average family is just looking for a Toyota Corolla. People should be getting the idea that hey, a puppy from this GCBB from this amazing breeder is not too expensive, and not just reserved for royalty, and would make the perfect family dog. 2) As Carl implied in another thread, if all the great breeders only breed rarely, the demand for that breed will end up being filled by puppy mills and irresponsible BYB. Of course I'm not trying to slam someone like Christine who seems to breed very rarely, she's not a slave and any breeding she does do has to fit in with her life. But if ALL the good breeders on the kennel recommended lists bred as infrequently, the gaps would be filled by poorly bred dogs, and negative, harmful genes and conditions would end up dominating, possibly destroying the breed in the long run.3) My final criticism, is a small one, and I hope not to ruffle any feathers, but I've noticed anyone who has approached these boards with the slightest whisper about breeding is slammed down hard. I understand the motivations, we don't need more BYB and poorly bred sheepies ending up in rescue or worse, but we can't freeze out new people getting into the breed honestly and seriously either. There are no resources on this forum I've seen that at least suggest a path to follow if you're seriously thinking about getting into breeding sheepies. There'll have to new responsible breeders coming down the pipes or this breed will end up extinct or left only to the puppy mills. And not every new breeder can instantly be an Amber, or an Ali, or a Marilyn, or a Christine etc, but they all had to start somewhere too. (note I am saying this without ANY desire or interest at all in getting into breeding). So to sum up my thoughts (and this is not OES-specific): too many good breeders don't breed enough, good breeders don't tend to promote their breeding in an accessible way, (at least on these forums) there seems to be a lack of resources for new people to work towards becoming good responsible breeders.  |
| Slightly different question, but also important, I think. How many litters should a single female have in her lifetime? Anyone in the know...what is "normal" and what would you qualify as too many? |
Amanda P wrote: Slightly different question, but also important, I think. How many litters should a single female have in her lifetime? Anyone in the know...what is "normal" and what would you qualify as too many? As in "not married"   We generally like to get 1 litter out of a girl we place in a show home. Keeps our lines going as we felt she was good enough for our breeding program which is why she was shown. And this way the owners can have a puppy out of their girl too. After that they are free to spay them since most generally really wanted them as a companion & don't want to mess with heat cycles every 6 months. For the girls that we keep to live with us, most we breed them is 3 times in their lifetime between the ages of 2 & 6 years. And most of the time we don't even do that many.. |
Amanda P wrote: Slightly different question, but also important, I think. How many litters should a single female have in her lifetime? Anyone in the know...what is "normal" and what would you qualify as too many? Again, a fluid question - there are no hard and fast rules, so, rather, it depends on the bitch. Every season a bitch goes through her uterus is bombarded with progesterone. Ironically, though progesterone is critical for making puppies, it also takes it's toll on the condition of the uterus. Ideally, if you were breeding just to produce puppies - and I'm not making a value judgement - you would breed fairly young (no younger than two to comply with health testing requirements, though you can certainly breed a bitch younger, especially depending on the breed, so mature more quickly than ours) If you only wanted two litters and the condition of the bitch remained good you might want to do a back-to-back breeding and breed her on her next season and then breed no more. Or you could rest her a season and then breed (roughly) a year later. And then re-evaluate and maybe breed her on her next season and be done with it or maybe wait. What repro specialists are now telling us is breed early, don't be afraid to breed on the next season if the situation warrants and the bitch came through in great shape (the first litter will probably be somewhat smaller) because now the uterus is primed and you should get a bigger litter and if you're not breeding her the progesterone is just deteriorating her uterus anyway, then maybe take a break, etc. Over time you would not be breeding back to back because each litter does take it out of them and you'll eventually end up with smaller litters with, possibly, more problems. With time litters will get smaller. There are no hard and fast rules, but I think your average OES bitch who is bred at all has 1-4 litters, with 4 and even 3 being rare these days. I don't know many OES bitches who have had a litter past age 7, and if you haven't bred her by the time she's five, expect fertility issues. Maybe it's different in other breeds. Now, the above breed young etc is what is recommended. What many of us are increasingly doing instead is finishing our bitch's championship - if you're like me you're in no hurry and don't start showing her till she's two and has hair, you'll probably finish her by the time she's three as you only show a little here and there when you have time and there may be majors available, in the mean time she's in training for agility and obedience and so on, though maybe not - scratch our heads and other body parts trying to figure out who to breed her to, in the mean time her biological clock is ticking, don't get around to breeding till she's maybe 5 or 6 and since you can't keep many dogs and the purpose of the breeding is to get one or two nice bitches (hopefull) you can continue on with, you just breed her once, and now YOU'RE exhausted and don't have the energy for another litter for at least a few years and so you cross your fingers. I cringe every time I read something that suggest breeding a bitch is abusive (not suggesting you hinted at that in any way, it just struck me as I was writing this) SOME bitches do not enjoy motherhood and should not, IMO, be bred again. But I have three bitches at my house ranging from 9 1/2 to 14 who each had a litter, and who love puppies so much they all but kicked poor Macy out of the whelping box to enjoy hers...They are biologically designed to reproduce (as are we) and though some, like some of us, would rather not, others truly love it and are never happier than when they have a litter to raise. Even if they have to steal one  Kristine |
| I wish I'd gotten back in too sheepdogs 10 or 20 years ago, instead of waiting so long. I'd LOVE, love, love to show, and to eventually breed as well. I'd love to try my hand at having a kennel, and breeding to improve the dogs toward a closer to the standard specimen. But at 40, I feel like I'm joining the game very late, and there just don't seem to be any really reputable breeders near me I could mentor with. I get especially sad when I read how the number of good breeders for our breed is in decline; I'd have loved to have been a "good breeder". |
| OMG if you feel past it at 40 we're ALL in deep doodoo. I'm in my 40s and still considered one of the "kids"  Some days I wonder though... Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: OMG if you feel past it at 40 we're ALL in deep doodoo. I'm in my 40s and still considered one of the "kids" Some days I wonder though... Kristine LOL....and I'm in the next decade and I think I'm still considered one of the kids too.  Allison, you are in the right group to feel forever young!!  |
| To me, this is a question that has no definitive answer as so many factors are involved, whether you have 1 litter per year, or two or ten. Here is my definition of a reputable breeder. 1) Health - All health testing is done, no excuses, no "my vet said they look ok". Certifications. Period. We are very lucky to have these tests available, so what would be someone's excuse to not do them? 2) Breeding dogs that conform as closely as possible to the Standard - while this point may be criticized by some, as most families are strictly looking for a good family pet, the fact of the matter is that the dogs conformation can absolutely affect the health. 3) Breeding dogs that only have the most stable temperaments in every way. Self explanitory and something I have to say is not important to some breeders out there....so sad for our breed. 4) All of the breeders dogs are well taken care of, groomed, vetted, fed quality dog food. Socialized, loved, part of the family. 5) The breeder has the extremely necessary time that is required to care for all of their dogs and the puppies. This includes taking care of, raising, proper socialization of every single puppy. Trust me, anyone who has properly raised a litter knows the amount of time and work it takes to have pups when you are doing it right! I have always said I will never own more dogs than I can properly give care and my utmost attention to....it just would not be fair to the dogs or myself. 6) The breeder cares where the puppies go and provides every single one of them with a properly screened loving home. The new owner is properly educated about the responsibilities of owning a dog are all about, and given a true lifetime of support from the breeder. For life. 7) The breeder is truly breeding for the betterment of the breed - not out to make a buck. And in my opinion if the breeder is doing everything I have mentioned above, there truly is no money in it and if they were set up as a business, would not have much of anything but a negative amount to show for in the end. If you calculated all of the time a reputable breeder puts into their litters, they would be making pennies/hour if that. Food, vet bills, registration, tattoos and microchips, deworming meds,stud fees,progesterone testing,c-sections,....the list goes on and on....all expenses. Health certifications for the parents, thyroid, annual CERF, OFA hips....show entry fees, gas to the shows, equipment, potions and grooming tools......purchasing and importing new blood to continue breed diversity (tens of thousands for those who are wondering, and I have imported 3 in the past 6 years) oh I could be here all day listing all of the expenses vs money brought in. Right now, I am young, ambitious, love showing, and truly enjoy having pups. Whether it be 1, 2 or 3 litters per year, a litter NEVER happens here unless I can put 100% of my time and effort into it and put every single pup into only the best homes and commit myself to that family for a lifetime of support. I am lucky to have a husband who supports me and helps, three wonderful children who are very actively involved in everything about the dogs (they are even now showing) If I were on my own there is no way I could do what I do right now. Every persons situation is different. Yes, I have recently had two litters and have another due the end of this month, however I am young, and am actively breeding right now because I am young and have the support. Will I be able to breed and show like this forever? The answer is I wish I could but realistically the older I get the less litters I will have but I plan on showing forever, or until I am forced to use a walker  Now back to the question of how many litters does a reputable breeder have per year.......in my opinion it can be 1 - ? Now I ask this.....is a breeder who breeds 1 litter per year who does not do what I have mentioned above (health certs, etc) qualify as a reputable breeder because they only breed once a year? Are they really better than the breeder who has, say 3 litters that year and who has done everything right in every way like the examples I mentioned above? Something to ponder.... |
| ^^^ BAM and there you have it! I just gotta say I respect and appreciate SO much Amber's and Christine's responses to all these sort of questions.  |
| I always wonder where the names come from: Blueshire, HUGS, .... Is it from an area you live in or family names?? Some champions have some very different names. just curious... |
Ryleigh wrote: I always wonder where the names come from: Blueshire, HUGS, .... Is it from an area you live in or family names?? Some champions have some very different names. just curious... I know HUGS comes from them being so huggable. I remember Paula saying that one time. In our case, Ken-Bear's comes from a combination of Cathy's 1st 2 sheepdogs' names. |
Ryleigh wrote: I always wonder where the names come from: Blueshire, HUGS, .... Is it from an area you live in or family names?? Some champions have some very different names. just curious... It's like a brand name that a breeder uses for their dogs..so they are easily identifiable. My family's Brittany's were Nor-Star...we are in Minnesota, and my dad was a huge hockey fan and also a hockey coach. In that day, we were the Minnesota North Stars for NFL Hockey. But, someone already had used North Star, so my dad changed it to Nor-Star. My good friend and TFT breeder has her kennel name as Icefox. Being Toy Fox Terriers she used the fox part, and she had moved here to MN from CA...the ice part was appropriate! |
| Problem is if you breed alot you may be classsed as a puppy farmer. Even if you make a effort into breeding. So if people don't like you they could but bad press about that person. I would say 1. Trying to improve the breed. a. Finding old lines & bringing them back b. Going around they world to find stud dogs to improve your line 2. Good & happy home for the dogs 3. Medical checks a. hip & eye scores b. DNA testing of your breed line c. Medical certs of your dogs 3. Good webstite about your animals 4. Have contract right on the puppies you sell ( Breeding & taking the dogs to another part of the world ). Also the ownership of the dog. They cannot just give the dog/bitch to another home after a fews years 5. Home work on the new owners 6. trying to improve your line |
| Nothing to add. I just wanted to thank everybody for such a fascinating thread. As always with this forum I have learned so much. Cloud's breeders are top notch and the kindest people I have ever met. Thanks guys I love this place! Debs x |
got sheep wrote: Ryleigh wrote: I always wonder where the names come from: Blueshire, HUGS, .... Is it from an area you live in or family names?? Some champions have some very different names. just curious... It's like a brand name that a breeder uses for their dogs..so they are easily identifiable. My family's Brittany's were Nor-Star...we are in Minnesota, and my dad was a huge hockey fan and also a hockey coach. In that day, we were the Minnesota North Stars for NFL Hockey. But, someone already had used North Star, so my dad changed it to Nor-Star. My good friend and TFT breeder has her kennel name as Icefox. Being Toy Fox Terriers she used the fox part, and she had moved here to MN from CA...the ice part was appropriate! and the North Stars are now the Dallas Stars- thats my yellow labs name- Dallas Star. lol and my chocolate is Mocha but we call her Mighty Mo after - yep Modano. lol Thanks for the info on names and such, really do learn a lot on here. |
Ryleigh wrote: got sheep wrote: Ryleigh wrote: I always wonder where the names come from: Blueshire, HUGS, .... Is it from an area you live in or family names?? Some champions have some very different names. just curious... It's like a brand name that a breeder uses for their dogs..so they are easily identifiable. My family's Brittany's were Nor-Star...we are in Minnesota, and my dad was a huge hockey fan and also a hockey coach. In that day, we were the Minnesota North Stars for NFL Hockey. But, someone already had used North Star, so my dad changed it to Nor-Star. My good friend and TFT breeder has her kennel name as Icefox. Being Toy Fox Terriers she used the fox part, and she had moved here to MN from CA...the ice part was appropriate! and the North Stars are now the Dallas Stars- thats my yellow labs name- Dallas Star. lol and my chocolate is Mocha but we call her Mighty Mo after - yep Modano. lol Thanks for the info on names and such, really do learn a lot on here. So the hockey names come full circle! |
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