GOOD NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The second surgery was a complete success!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  The band was found over the espohagus on the right side and they were able to remove it. After removing the band they put a camera down her espohagus as well as a balloon and they were able to pass through it all unlike yesterday when the band was still there. They said she was a bit cold after coming out of anesthesia, but was now starting to move around. She also said to be prepared - she is a bald sheepdog as they had to shave alot of her coat. Anyways, her prognosis is full recovery and a totally normal life with no complications. She has been given life, thanks to all the prayers and generosity of this family. The surgeon said she will go over diet, medications and follow up with me tomorrow. If all goes well tonight she just might be able to come home tomorrow I can't wait to hold her in my arms again  |
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| Oh, that is such wonderful news!!! I bet she's pretty shaved up...oh well, it's just hair and now she will have lots and lots of time to regrow it!  |
Happy tears flowing, YAY and wishing abby a wonderfull life ahead    |
oh this is great news!!! I say shave the rest of her down so she can grow her entire coat back the same length. I bet she'll look adorable in a tiny doggie sweater!  ...now I have to go tell Adam; he was asking all day for an update!  |
| OMG I have been waiting all day for this INCREDIBLY GOOD NEWS!!! HOORAY!! I am absolutely thrilled. Fantastic. I cannot wait to watch the tiny princess grow up knowing she was saved by the incredible group of donors and supporters here. |
| Yay!!!!!! I am so happy for you and little miss Abby!!!!!  Thanks heavens she is doing so well.......spoil that girl rotten for all of us. |
| Tears here too... I'm SO happy this precious little imp had this chance to live. |
| Alright!! That's what I'm talking about!! Here's hoping for a quick recuperation. |
| Good news....NO......GREAT NEWS I'm so happy for everyone. Make sure you give her a hug and kiss from every one of us. Way to go Abby |
Valerie wrote: OMG I have been waiting all day for this INCREDIBLY GOOD NEWS!!! HOORAY!! I am absolutely thrilled. Fantastic. I cannot wait to watch the tiny princess grow up knowing she was saved by the incredible group of donors and supporters here. Absolutely! I feel like she has become "all" of ours |
Thank Goodnes  Honestly I was getting more and more worried as the day went on with no word, but in the end the wait was worth while!  Well she is young and the coat will grow back - not as though she is a long way behnd so that isn't a big concern. Did I mention I'm really glad to hear this news Amber, give the gutsy little tyke a cuddle and kiss from Uncle Carl, Auntie Michele and big cousins Virgil Tiberius and Dawn Eline. The rest of our pack joins in the celebrations as well. And give yourself some time to unwind and enjoy this little girl over the next week or so, just keep us updated every so often, okay? Thanks and Cheers Carl |
 Honestly, I woulda been in pieces if things didn't go well!!!! HUGE THANK YOU TO EVERYONE!!!!!!  |
| This is such wonderful news, I am so pleased. What a team effort-you guys are fantastic. |
| DH has had me checking every 30 minutes on "TinkerBelle." No Abby I say.....nope to him she's Tinkerbelle. Such wonderful news!!! |
| Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been so worried today. I'm so happy that little Abbey is doing good. Give her extra hugs from us tomorrow.. Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
| Today was the worst day ever for me......they told me this morning when they called she was second in line for surgery, so it would be done late morning. 12 o'clock came, 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock.....my stomach was in knots. I called Kim and feared the worst. I thought they were not calling me because something went wrong and they were afraid to call me. Kim assured me she was sure that was not the case and then finally, at 5:39 pm, Dr. Debbie Reynolds finally called me with the news! I promise lots of updates, as well as photos of her when we get home. And for those who donated, I will be posting the bill/receipt from the University as soon as I get the total and pay when I pick her up. |
| this is the perfect way to start the weekend with the best news possible. God was watching over this litte one and gave her a bunch of sheepie angles to look after her. So happy your baby will now grow and be full of life. |
SheepieBoss wrote: DH has had me checking every 30 minutes on "TinkerBelle." No Abby I say.....nope to him she's Tinkerbelle. Such wonderful news!!! Well, a name change may be in order  How about "Blueshire's Little Miss Miracle" ?.?. Let's get our thinking caps on guys, cause a girl this special needs a great name!!! |
 What a little fighter she is!!!!! Great news!!!!!! I agree Jen...perfect 'new name' for OUR little babygirl!!!!! |
Millielover wrote: Well, a name change may be in order How about "Blueshire's Little Miss Miracle" ?.?. Let's get our thinking caps on guys, cause a girl this special needs a great name!!! That's what I was thinking. |
Millielover wrote: SheepieBoss wrote: DH has had me checking every 30 minutes on "TinkerBelle." No Abby I say.....nope to him she's Tinkerbelle. Such wonderful news!!! Well, a name change may be in order How about "Blueshire's Little Miss Miracle" ?.?. Let's get our thinking caps on guys, cause a girl this special needs a great name!!! Love it! |
| Yea Abby!!! Get well soon!!! |
sheepieshake wrote: :clappurple: What a little fighter she is!!!!! Great news!!!!!! I agree Jen...perfect 'new name' for OUR little babygirl!!!!! |
| yeah!!!!!!!! |
| SUCH GOOD NEWS! So happy for you--and so glad to know that Abby is going to have a normal beautiful life! Whew--long day here--so I can only imagine how it must have been a tough day for you! Happy Tears here!! kiss her when you can for us! What a little fighter she is! |
| So happy to read this!!!! Every post about this little girl has left me in tears, sad, proud (of our wonderful forum!) and now happy.   |
| Just want to mention that Abby's name means--"Father's Joy" Some interpretations use 'gift'-- Just sayin... By the way Murphy sends get well kisses to sister Abby! |
| So so Happy!!!! I was so worried that I couldn't sleep last night! I just knew little Abby is a warrior!!!! Can't wait to see her all recovered! I bet she is going to make up for lost time! |
| So happy today was better...will pray she continues to remain strong...checked all day waiting for good news! You can't look at that sweetness and not fall in love..think "Love" should be a second name.. |
| I am just catching up with the first update so glad I saw this now! All I can say is GREAT NEWS! YIPPEE!!!!! |
| Wonderful news! So happy, and sending lots of wishes for a speedy, full recovery. She is a real miracle puppy! |
| Yay! Hurray! What GREAT news! I'm so happy for you and little Miss Miracle!!! |
All I can add is - thank you, Lord, for answering all our prayers!!  This little girl will never realize how much she means to all of us. We're all aunts and uncles, and so very proud to be!! Gentle hugs and kisses being sent to Abby. Can't wait to see pictures of her new 'do!    |
| Yay! Im so glad! Shes so precious. I hope she recovers well and i cant wait to see what a wonderful sheepie she grows into!! |
| This is such wonderful news!! She is truly a miracle girl~ |
| Happy feelings here!!! God bless little miracle sheepie Abby . Hoping she gets stronger by the minute and all works out well. Greatful thoughts out to all those who were able and kind enough to offer financial support as well. |
| So glad to see the good news. I was really worried...so was dh. Go miteymite!! |
Valerie wrote: OMG I have been waiting all day for this INCREDIBLY GOOD NEWS!!! HOORAY!! I am absolutely thrilled. Fantastic. I cannot wait to watch the tiny princess grow up knowing she was saved by the incredible group of donors and supporters here. Ive been checking in everytime i could connect! Prayers ARE ANSWERED!!!!! Ali |
| From the UK I would like to say I am so so pleased to hear your good news. I kept waiting last night until I was just to tired to wait any longer. I knew Amber was on line but hadnt posted so I went to bed with a heavy heart. But I am now crying tears of joy... bless everyone for donating, bless the vets for performing the operation, bless our departed beloved sheepdogs I believe in angels and Abby has one, or lots for certain. I kept thinking of Darcy's Panda and how we all loved her but lost her, and I am so pleased we didnt lose this little fighter. OK am waffling now so will go and start the day xxxx |
KTB wrote: :yay: From the UK I would like to say I am so so pleased to hear your good news. I kept waiting last night until I was just to tired to wait any longer. I knew Amber was on line but hadnt posted so I went to bed with a heavy heart. But I am now crying tears of joy... bless everyone for donating, bless the vets for performing the operation, bless our departed beloved sheepdogs I believe in angels and Abby has one, or lots for certain. I kept thinking of Darcy's Panda and how we all loved her but lost her, and I am so pleased we didnt lose this little fighter. OK am waffling now so will go and start the day xxxx Same here in the Isle of Man. Great news to wake up to. I am so happy for Amber, Princess OES.ORG (AKA Abbey) and everyone. Hope she is back with you very soon. Much love Debs |
| What a way to start the day with such wonderful news. Now healing prayers and positive thoughts out to sweet little Abby /Amber Yes, sometimes is does take a village to raise up a sick pup and it's upright. |
Valerie wrote: OMG I have been waiting all day for this INCREDIBLY GOOD NEWS!!! HOORAY!! I am absolutely thrilled. Fantastic. I cannot wait to watch the tiny princess grow up knowing she was saved by the incredible group of donors and supporters here. you said it the best |
| Best news ever, now get some rest so you can give this precious baby lots of hugs and kisses. |
| I have a thought...since Abbey is the miracle baby....And Darcy did mention she was beginning to think about a new puppy.... |
| i am soooooo happy to hear that little abby came thru with flying colors!!!! i keep thinking of the name that susan's husband came up with...Tinkerbell....i think that is just the cutest name....tinker for short.... i like Blueshires littlest Tinkerbell.... give the munchkin a kiss from me!! |
| Did you get an update today? Just wondering how the wee babe is doing... when she might come home. I hope you're resting easy baby girl. |
| She is doing very well. We will be picking her up tomorrow morning. Will have a complete update for everyone after we see her and talk in detail with the surgeon when we pick her up. |
| Thanks Amber! |
| Thanks for the update So glad it's good news again. |
| Super news! |
| Thanks for the update...Ive been thinking of her all day! |
| Thanks for the update amber, be so interested also to hear what the follow up care is. Dont forget to post photos of her as we are all waiting anxiously to see "petite miam". Never heard of what she was born with but so interesting to hear about and also follow up on her life ahead and to also watch this little fairy floss bloom as well. Definately a fighter she is and god bless this special baby.  |
| Good to know you will have her in your arms tomorrow- |
lisaoes wrote: Thanks for the update amber, be so interested also to hear what the follow up care is. Dont forget to post photos of her as we are all waiting anxiously to see "petite miam". Never heard of what she was born with but so interesting to hear about and also follow up on her life ahead and to also watch this little fairy floss bloom as well. Definately a fighter she is and god bless this special baby. I am so happy for Abby and you!Good to know that the surgery went well and that she will recover completly. |
just sittin here waiting on lil ms ABBYcadabra  |
| This is very good news. Can't wait to see pictures of her. |
| So happy for you and Abby! |
| don't really understand why you are collecting money for this surgery from the caring people on this board when you have just put nineteen puppies on the ground @$2000/piece plus the upcoming litter you will have? Sounds a little bit unethical???????????? That is a A LOT of puppies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Guest wrote: don't really understand why you are collecting money for this surgery from the caring people on this board when you have just put nineteen puppies on the ground @$2000/piece plus the upcoming litter you will have? Sounds a little bit unethical???????????? That is a A LOT of puppies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Amber did not collect money for this surgery. The caring people on this board (myself included) offered money for this surgery to save the life of this sweet puppy. I do not see how any of this should be the concern of a coward who hides behind internet anonymity. It is a sad statement on humanity that no matter how good and selfless the human endeavor by so many good and noble people, there will always be some malignant negative person, spurred on by private pain, envy, or simply malice, who will try and poison the goodwill. Amber's horrible choice was between risking destitution for her family to try and save this puppy's life, or to let the puppy go without giving it a chance at life. The staggeringly wonderful, generous, compassionate people on this board stepped in and removed that horrible decision from Amber. I am endlessly grateful we did, I know Amber is even more. Go away troll, you are not wanted here. |
I agree with you David. This so called "guest" is neither kind, caring or compasionate. So, GUTLESS GUEST, stay off of our forum!!.  Pester some other site!!! |
| The troll is someone close enough to know how many puppies have been whelped recently. And while that sounds like a lot, cost of breeding from breeding fees to prewhelp testing, post whelping fees to say nothing of income taxes pretty much bottoms out any profit in dog breeding......when done by a responsible breeder. BYBs might make a profit but at what cost to the breed? Amber did not ask, it was the kindness and generosity of others. So troll, if you didnt approve or have a problem with Amber or for whatever reason you need to be mean, keep it private. |
| Well said David |
| Maybe the troll was turned down for a pup! I certainly hope so. |
Baba wrote: Amber did not collect money for this surgery. The caring people on this board (myself included) offered money for this surgery to save the life of this sweet puppy. I do not see how any of this should be the concern of a coward who hides behind internet anonymity. It is a sad statement on humanity that no matter how good and selfless the human endeavor by so many good and noble people, there will always be some malignant negative person, spurred on by private pain, envy, or simply malice, who will try and poison the goodwill. Go away troll, you are not wanted here. Yet another illustration of why I have frequently petitioned Ron to remove the guest posting permission feature of this site. But it is clearly an arguement he is not willing to consider so we have to put up with this sort of malice and tripe. For what it is worth Ron, I am again prompting you to disable this permission. YMMV Carl |
| I think the guest has a legitimate question, even if it isn't worded in a particularly sensitive way. I myself wondered about the ethics, and asked a friend that does breeding about it. For example: If you are a breeder that is interested in the betterment of the breed and not just a high-end puppy mill or BYB, is it ethical to allow a puppy born with a defect to live? I didn't know, so asked "was this a true genetic shortcoming, that needed to be eliminated from the breeding line, or was it a fluke birth defect?" I also wondered, now that the community paid for the puppy to be hospitalized, what would happen to the puppy? Would the puppy be sold, and under what conditions? I noticed that Abby wasn't listed on Ambers website as available; did she already have a family lined up, prior to the surgery? I had all of these questions, but still donated towards the puppy's care. I think its okay to be both compassionate and still inquisitive; my questions stem from an actual desire for knowledge about breeding ethics. I think what should be addressed is what is behind the Guest's questions; do they really want to understand the situation, or are they simply trying to make Amber look bad as a breeder? |
| Curious questions. I dont know about the condition, that's something for the vets to speak to. Personally: I'm not speaking for anyone else: If a transmittable genetic defect, I'd remove it from the breeding pool...and pray it doesn't show up again in the line. If money would not be available or the chance of recovery good enough, I'd have the euthanize the dog. As for the pup's future, IF it can't be shipped to each person who dontated money for a prolong visit any contract between the buyer and seller, if in place before, might need modification. I'm not sure if Abby could be in the show ring after this.......nothing was really modified.....or was it? No matter where Abby ends up, she has a whole bunch of aunts and uncles who want updates! |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I think the guest has a legitimate question, even if it isn't worded in a particularly sensitive way. I myself wondered about the ethics, and asked a friend that does breeding about it. For example: If you are a breeder that is interested in the betterment of the breed and not just a high-end puppy mill or BYB, is it ethical to allow a puppy born with a defect to live? I didn't know, so asked "was this a true genetic shortcoming, that needed to be eliminated from the breeding line, or was it a fluke birth defect?" I also wondered, now that the community paid for the puppy to be hospitalized, what would happen to the puppy? Would the puppy be sold, and under what conditions? I noticed that Abby wasn't listed on Ambers website as available; did she already have a family lined up, prior to the surgery? I had all of these questions, but still donated towards the puppy's care. I think its okay to be both compassionate and still inquisitive; my questions stem from an actual desire for knowledge about breeding ethics. I think what should be addressed is what is behind the Guest's questions; do they really want to understand the situation, or are they simply trying to make Amber look bad as a breeder? I think your questions are fair Allison. But I sincerely doubt the troll's intentions were reasonable and innocent as yours. I hesitate to jump in and speak for Amber, but a deliberately malicious misreading of the situation may spread quickly (what is the saying? Nothing is faster than the speed of light with the exception of malicious gossip?) so I think I should stomp on such possibilities quickly. So with what I know: 1) The first question she asked the various vets: is it genetic? The answer was no, it is not. 2) Amber isn't sure what to do with Abby, she is focusing on recovery and getting her healthy, the care she still requires is pretty intensive and will be for several weeks. However, the few options I have heard her express have been: "Allison and Adam can have her!"  (and we know you nixed that option already); keeping her for her family as a pet (not for showing or breeding); giving her to the vet tech who fell in love with her, wants her and spent both nights at the hospital with her. I think she is leaning towards keeping her, and I actually hope she does (if we can't have her! ) |
| Good for you David standing by Amber! |
| I knew this would happen... even said it would be someone who never even donated who would want to cause a problem. This is the way I see it... Amber's friends helped out... those that wanted this puppy to at least have a chance at life. And yes, she definitely would have died without corrective surgery based on her slow growth. No one forced a single donator to part with money. And there's no doubt that this puppy will have a home... no matter the outcome... as long as her life will be one of quality. When we did Bumble's surgery, I specifically asked the doctor if I was being fair putting him through it all. Honestly, it's easier financially and time wise to just humanely euthanize. But he was given encouraging odds that he would run, play and enjoy life again. Poor Amber... not only did I write her about the stuffies last night, I also shared someone's experience from over a decade ago. This pup was left with regurgitation issues despite surgery. Thinking she still went on to enjoy her life... http://www.intergate.com/~adamas/angel.html Quote: ADAMAS Enchanted Host MX, MXJ, WAC, CGC "Angel" 2002 DPCA Top Twenty Agility Finalist-#10 2003 DPCA Top Twenty Agility Finalist- #10 2004 DPCA Top Twenty Agility Finalist- #19 After a long and active life, Angel passed away one week shy of her 12th birthday. She is greatly missed. There are varying degrees of medical conditions so each case will be unique. I found another article where the surgery had been greatly delayed and that dog still did well- http://www.jaaha.org/content/44/5/258.abstract But it's case was not as dire. The moderators surely know the location the post originated from. I've said it for years, if you can't say it using your own name, don't be saying it at all. I've never hidden behind an anonymous post and poked someone with a stick... |
| I believe Amber also said her husband was out of work (please correct if Im wrong) But if this is the case then any money she is getting from breeding is not enough to live on much less pay for a 4,000+ surgery when things are tight. And again I dont remember HER asking anyone for anything, it was offered. |
 How pointless.Was it really necessary to pour so much poison into this lovely thread. Asking interesting questions is relevant and approptiate. However; What the guest does here is to pour "malurt" (a bitter plant) into a cup.  (That's what we say in Norwegian.) And yes, David the stupid Trolls use websides as their personal garbage can.  |
| Well said David and everyone else. I didn't want to say anything to this person it just feeds there spiteful needs. But I cannot help myself! So I will just say I knew what I was getting into by donating as well as we all did. Amber never asked for money just our feedback and help emotionally. I am not a breeder don't know much about the logistics but I am well aware they are not in it for the money but for the love of the breed. So please Amber don't even give this person a second thought it is just one of those hurtful people who try to get others riled up. We all cared about this puppy and wanted to help. Just keep positive and take care of yourself and lil Abby. |
| Interesting read Jaci, thanks for posting it. One paragraph popped out: Quote: The following five weeks were the hardest on us. During this phase, Angel had to be fed orally, by syringe, in an upright position. She then had to continue to be held in an upright position for another 20-30 minutes so gravity could help the food go down her esophagus properly. Because of the small amount of food she could be given at a time and the lower caloric value of the food, this had to be repeated every four hours around the clock. This is what Amber is doing right now. No matter what Amber eventually does decide to do with Abby, she will not profit financially, she will almost certainly end up costing Amber. I'm sure a lot of dog breeders in her situation would have simply euthanized the puppy, it's the most sound decision financially and time-wise. Amber couldn't do that, and obviously most of us here agree with her decision because we helped out to ensure she wouldn't have to. We all felt very strongly Abby should have a fighting chance at life, and that's what Amber is currently focusing on, helping her fight for it. |
| I wonder if one of those baby snuggie things would work. Then Abby could be in an upright position and Amber would have her hands free. (for those that dont know what Im talking about its kinda like a back pack that you put your baby in but you wear it on the front of your chest) She could probably get a used one cheap at a second hand baby store. just a thought...... |
| I understand all too well Amber's position; as a breeder she will post the available puppies online, and even answer people's questions about how much they cost. So anyone thinks they can do the math, and figure out how much money she makes a year, and then judge them accordingly. Adam and I are in the same position. In our industry, people know what artwork he produces, they know I sell all of it, and they can often see the prices online. They do the math, and assume we make X amount of money a year, and that we must be wealthy. They don't stop and think that we have had to pay for our own health insurance. Or when we didn't have it, for 10's of thousands of dollars of medical issues thanks to me. They don't know how much money we've paid on vets or dog training, or that we have employees we pay, and that we donate heavily to Vets, Police, Fire, Heart Assoc, Cancer research, children's hospitals and animal rescues. It's easy to sit outside and judge, thinking you have all the information on which to base your judgement. Amber shouldn't have to make public how she makes her income, what she spends it on, how they budget or anything else financial. That's HER private life. If a person doesn't like what they see, then don't get a dog from Amber, or don't donate towards Abby's care. Amber didn't ask for money; she came on here upset and at her wit's end about what to do, and voiced her concerns to us. I've been there; I'll bet a lot of us have. Hard decisions that have to be based on money, and not on what you would WANT to do. So some of us helped take the money out of the equation. I'm sure that those of us that chose to do so did it because we wanted that puppy to be well, regardless of how much money Amber and her family does or does not make from breeding. The Guest or troll can voice their thoughts; it shouldn't make a difference. We aren't stupid; I'm sure that everyone that donated took these thoughts into consideration and gave money anyway. And maybe some people allowed these thoughts to guide them FROM giving money; and that's okay too. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. What people shouldn't be entitled to is bullying; questions asked politely and without venomous implications deserve answers. Haven't respected breeders always been about educating people about their breed? But that shouldn't be taken as permission to abuse them due to situational factors. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I think the guest has a legitimate question, even if it isn't worded in a particularly sensitive way. I myself wondered about the ethics, and asked a friend that does breeding about it. For example: If you are a breeder that is interested in the betterment of the breed and not just a high-end puppy mill or BYB, is it ethical to allow a puppy born with a defect to live? I didn't know, so asked "was this a true genetic shortcoming, that needed to be eliminated from the breeding line, or was it a fluke birth defect?" I also wondered, now that the community paid for the puppy to be hospitalized, what would happen to the puppy? Would the puppy be sold, and under what conditions? I noticed that Abby wasn't listed on Ambers website as available; did she already have a family lined up, prior to the surgery? I had all of these questions, but still donated towards the puppy's care. I think its okay to be both compassionate and still inquisitive; my questions stem from an actual desire for knowledge about breeding ethics. I think what should be addressed is what is behind the Guest's questions; do they really want to understand the situation, or are they simply trying to make Amber look bad as a breeder? These are all good questions Allison and are legitimate to ask at the right time and in the right forum. What is so "disgusting" to me, and I suspect many others who have railed against this "guest post" is that it was done under the anonimity of a "guest" and in such an inflamatory manner. There is no responsibility or ownership of these comments in the way they have been made and they seem to be submitted for no reason other than to create hard feelings and a backlash against Amber. As such in my never humble opinion they do not deserve a reply, rather abject dismissal. Ask them with ownership and without allegations, then that is another story. Michele and I actually discussed some of these issues over the phone when Abby's case was first raised about a week ago so clearly many have similar if not the same questions. While I may have some "discomfort" with certain aspects of how this has all developed I see no ethical problems with treating Abby. Physical ailments happen even in the best of researched and conducted breeding programmes and not all of them are hereditary conditions that will be passed along. Sometimes a puppy is just ill, has an unusual condition or minor deformity and that is where it stops. And sometimes they just develop a serious health condition later in life. My Martin Zephram died far too early from congestive heart failure and while this can frequently be a hereditary condition I don't for a second think that was the case with Martin. (If I had in any way even suspected that to have been the case you can be well and truly assured that I'd have been all over his breeder for recompense and more importantly disclosure to all parents of related puppers!) If there is any risk of a condition being passed on then spaying or neutering the afflicted puppy fully protects the breed from associated health problems which is further served by appropriately removing the dam or sire (whichever is carrying the gene) from the respective breeding programmes. But remember that this is a small population breed and genetic diversity is limited at best, especially on a continental basis as it is very hard and expensive to bring in a sire or dam from "offshore". Sometimes breeders cannot realistically eliminate risk but instead have to manage it by being careful which dam is bred to which sire. Eg if all Bobtails not having "excelent" OFA hip x-ray ratings were removed from all breeding programmes the breed could most probably not survive here in North America if not the world as a whole. Instead bad, and poor rated dogs are not bred and often neither are average rated dogs. Whenever possible a breeder will "breed up", say my good dam to your excellent sire. But is it essential to remove my otherwise excellent conformation sire whose hips are average rated from all breeding programs? It is not always quite so simple as one first imagines. Some may think that these consitiute unethical choices and it certainly could be argued as such. But there are no absolutes when dealing with innocent lives - especailly when millers and poor BYB are ready to jump in and fill the void left when good breeders have a period of inactivity while they rebuild their breeding programme. And I submit that to summarily euthanize an afflicted puppy is far more unethical than risk management and giving the breeding scum more of a foothold to wreak more health concerns in our already too problematic breed. Just a few apparently discordant thoughts and an example to mull over. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
I think I forgot to share the actual link with Amber but did share that particular paragraph along with the one how they keep the pup upright in a bag and were able to use their hands to do other things. Trying to find ways to make it a little easier for her and her family... without being too obnoxious.  As I said... the easy way out for a breeder is to simply euthanize. Amber didn't make the easy choice. It's why I strongly believe in sharing experiences of medical issues because some day someone else will be feeling scared like you were and you may offer them hope... |
| I am very grateful that Amber has decided to try and save Abby. I gave a donation that was not asked for. I do not, nor do I want to know anything about Amber's finances. She is a friend in need and I am glad to help. I am not a vet or a breeder and know nothing about what is appropriate for Abby's future. I think we have all thought about it though...and I also had questions similar to Allison. Baba wrote: I think your questions are fair Allison. But I sincerely doubt the troll's intentions were reasonable and innocent as yours. I hesitate to jump in and speak for Amber, but a deliberately malicious misreading of the situation may spread quickly (what is the saying? Nothing is faster than the speed of light with the exception of malicious gossip?) so I think I should stomp on such possibilities quickly. So with what I know: 1) The first question she asked the various vets: is it genetic? The answer was no, it is not. Again.....I am no vet, but when I google Abby's condition the first few sites all say that there may be a genetic component and that affected dogs and their parents should not be bred?????? Not sure why the conflict in opinion with Amber's vet...... Maybe something that needs more research????? I googled vascular ring anomaly in dogs....maybe that's not the right name for it???? Anyway, here is a link to one of the pages that comes up: http://www.vetstreet.com/care/persistent-right-aortic-arch-vascular-ring-anomaly-in-dogs-and-cats |
| I would love to see little Abbey carried in one of those infant bags. Pictures? |
Millielover wrote: Again.....I am no vet, but when I google Abby's condition the first few sites all say that there may be a genetic component and that affected dogs and their parents should not be bred?????? Not sure why the conflict in opinion with Amber's vet...... Maybe something that needs more research????? I googled vascular ring anomaly in dogs....maybe that's not the right name for it???? Anyway, here is a link to one of the pages that comes up: http://www.vetstreet.com/care/persistent-right-aortic-arch-vascular-ring-anomaly-in-dogs-and-cats Refer back to what Carl wrote and then put what you've read in the context of "there may be a hereditary component". This is a very rare condition, with a suspected familial element in some breeds, ours not among them. Could it some day be? Possibly. But as it stands now, and if I'm not mistaken this is a repeat litter, you have one puppy with the issue out of how many puppies? (I'm not counting, just saying) In other words, we can't go crazy eliminating everything related to this puppy from the genepool based on suspicions of a possible genetic component, almost unknown in our breed and with not the slightest clue regarding mode of inheritance, if there is one. You watch, and if it shows up AGAIN somewhere down the line, now you have to strongly consider there's a probably a problem. Odds are it won't and heaven knows the little girl herself won't be bred, so though it's certainly a legitimate question, it's probably an exaggerated concern. Now go back and read what Carl wrote one more time about the potential impact on our breed if we go crazy culling from the genepool every time there's a hint of a problem because he makes a really important point. There's no such thing as the perfect dog, not even the perfect OES Just like us humans, they all, each and every one, mutts too, carry some lethal genes. And in this case there really is no way to know if it wasn't just some kind of developmental fluke. If you listen when breeders talk about litters you may hear "she had 9 puppies, but one was still born" or "she had 13 but only 11 lived" (usually the ones who don't make it are gone within hours or maybe days, some times minutes) Those early casualties may very well have had something wrong with them, and I often think it's a blessing when nature takes care of its own mistakes, but it's not so heartbreaking at that age. Sad, but not as personal. Kristine |
| Stick some towels down the sides to keep her in the upright position. Small is for up to 10 pounds... Medium up to 20  http://www.amazon.com/Kyjen-Outward-Hou ... -1-catcorr |
| First I would like to address our "Guest" (I know who you are ) I am flattered at how much you talk about me.....truly! I am extremely proud of myself for what I have done and what I will continue to do with this breed. I take breeding very seriously since my first litter 23 years ago. My litters are carefully planned. The parents are Champions, have all of their health clearances and only the best temperaments. I am actively involved in the Old English Sheepdog & Owners Club of Canada as well as my Seaway Kennel Club. I am actually going to stop now as I truly just wasted 30 seconds of my life addressing you as anyone who knows me can attest that these guys are my passion, not my business! Now, to my friends here on oes.org......I will answer every question that has been raised by some of you. Anyone who knows me knows I am truly a lover of this breed, and it has been my passion since I was a little girl. I have always been 100% truthful about my dogs and will never be anything but that. The vet told me what Abby has is congenital - which means it is specific to her and her development. Her littermates are not affected or at risk. Should Abby be used in a breeding program? Absolutely not! Same as my Bella from a few years back. When I had her CERF done, she had retinal dysplasia in the folds of one eye and geographically in the other. She had CERF clear parents. Would I want to breed her? No, as while her eyesight would be unaffected from this, there would have been a chance she would produce blind pups. A chance I will never take so she was spayed. As for Abby, the last thing I am thinking about right now is finding her a home. Honestly, other than others bringing it up, it has not even crossed my mind. I am totally thankful to all of you for your emotional and financial support you have given me and without you she would not have had a chance (which by the way makes me feel like a bit of a failure not being able to do this financially on my own due to Steve baing laid off work the last 6 months) Right now my energy is being used to nurse this one back to 100% health and to continue my journey with Abby with the support of all of my friends here on this forum. If anyone ever has any questions or concerns, never, ever hesitate to just ask! |
| I for one am too old to worry about all these threads I am just so so so so pleased that Abby is well......xxxxxx |
| I, like Susan, believe that the "guest" is actually a registered member who is cowarding behind the anonymous guest posting. I'm sure Ron has the IP address of this "guest" and I believe Ron should out the "guest". And then get rid of the guest posting capability. With that said, I see no problem with helping a fellow forum member. I was happy & proud to be a part of what we accomplished. As I've said before, I would hope that others would step up & help me if, God forbid, I ever needed it. I see no issue with saving little Abby. If there is a chance that her condition is genetic, then she should be fixed. Simple answer. But first & foremost, she is a living being and deserves every chance to have & enjoy a life. That's what we gave her. For me, her situation needed to be divorced from the "breeding stock" aspect. It's not about if she'll turn out healthy pups. It's about saving the life of a dog who can go on to live a long, healthy, happy life. And as the "guest" rants about the cost of Amber's pups and so on, I'm sure the "guest" didn't know that Amber's husband is out of work now. So the money they make from the sale of a pup has to pay the mortgage, buy food, gasoline, insurances, car payments, etc, etc, etc. The profit she's getting is allowing them to keep their heads above water. Not making a killing as the "guest" suggests. Amber, Don't let this "guest" get to you. We support you 100% and would do so again. |
CamVal1 wrote: I, like Susan, believe that the "guest" is actually a registered member who is cowarding behind the anonymous guest posting. I'm sure Ron has the IP address of this "guest" and I believe Ron should out the "guest". And then get rid of the guest posting capability. One thing, if Amber's suspicions are correct, then it is a specific person she knows, but I don't think is a registered user of the board, or if they are, possibly with no posts, definitely not any current poster of the past 2 years. So we don't have to harbour any suspicions towards each other here...(unlike my personal issues with, let's call her "Blenda", who somehow, impossibly, stole my Charm at Sheepiepalooza last year!  ) |
| Amber please dont feel like "a failure" because you needed help. Sometimes we all need someone to lean on, money wise or just a shoulder, it doesnt make you a failure at all. Your baby needed help and your friends where able to help you, not a darn thing wrong with that. I know as a mom we hurt when our kids hurt, 2 or 4 legged, and we want to take all the pain on ourselves. It doesnt make you a failure but a very fortunate person to have friends who can and will help you in a time of need. Perhaps something the "guest" doesnt have. |
| It is said that every cloud has a silver lining and the silver lining for me is that I learned more about my beloved OES through Abby's experience. The other silver lining is that I was reminded yet again how many wonderful people there are on this forum! |
KTB wrote: I for one am too old to worry about all these threads I am just so so so so pleased that Abby is well......xxxxxx Well said!!! So very happy that "our" little girl is on the road to recovery! |
| I think everyone else has said it all...but...to add my small 2 cents ... I read about Abby's illness late, the balance had been paid by that point and was over what was "expected" and I still wanted, and did, donate...why? 1. Because I could totally relate to what Amber was going through with being in a situation monetarily that you don't plan for but happens just the same 2. Because I, like most everyone on this site, fell in love with that lil "runt" (...sorry...old Charlotte's Web fanatic from waaaayyy back...  ) from the moment her sweet little face was on this siteBut most of all...because I would not have the love of my life if it were not for Amber and the love and time she takes with her breeding program (and I recently paid that amount for her and would pay double now...she was worth every penny!!!). Had she not called me back, talked me through my questions, and instantly felt like someone I knew I could count on to call as I traveled through this new life of OES ownership, I may not have Pru today. I read her original post and not once...not once..felt like she was requesting money. I remember the instant smile and love that I felt when I scrolled down to see the reaction everyone had on this site. I truly donated hoping she would have some $$ left over to use for herself after taking care of her other pets, her sweet children, her home, AND, nursing that sweet helpless puppy. And Amber, keep your head up and keep doing what you do! I only hope one day I can get to Canada and you guys can show me around up there . Meanwhile, if you (and the family ) want to come see what pearly white sandy beaches are like, load up the pups and come on down!! Sounds like after Steve's misfortune and now this (among things that I am sure none of know regarding day-to-day life...lol)...you could use a Florida vacation....just sayin'! |
Mad Dog wrote: In other words, we can't go crazy eliminating everything related to this puppy from the genepool based on suspicions of a possible genetic component, almost unknown in our breed and with not the slightest clue regarding mode of inheritance, if there is one. You watch, and if it shows up AGAIN somewhere down the line, now you have to strongly consider there's a probably a problem. Odds are it won't and heaven knows the little girl herself won't be bred, so though it's certainly a legitimate question, it's probably an exaggerated concern. Kristine Thanks for explaining the situation. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my questions.....I am new to the breed and there is much I do not understand. Millie is my first OES and I would like to add another in a few years. With that in mind I really want to learn what to look for in a breeder and a puppy. I got lucky with Millie as I did not know anything about conformation or proper breeding. I know Amber is a well respected breeder and is genuinely concerned about the health of her puppies. I am a researcher by nature and when what I had read about Abby's condition did not match what I read here, I decided to ask. Thanks again for the clarification. I truly believe that donating money to help Amber and Abby was the right choice, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. Every life is precious. |
Millielover wrote: Thanks for explaining the situation. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my questions.....I am new to the breed and there is much I do not understand. Millie is my first OES and I would like to add another in a few years. With that in mind I really want to learn what to look for in a breeder and a puppy. I got lucky with Millie as I did not know anything about conformation or proper breeding. Jennifer, I don't think anyone was offended by your question, I most certainly was not. You asked a question and a number of people answered it. Between all of us I think it was reasonably well covered. Unfortunately many simple-to-ask questions are not so simple to answer. It would be nice if good breeding practises were as easy to define and follow as are good engineering practises but of course they are not. Dealing with living animals, each of which is truly unique, requires a large degree of not only knowledge but interpretation, and most of all, wisdom that can only be gained with experience. That is one of the biggest reasons a good breeder is so valuable, few have the humilty to admit they have will always have more to learn and the determination to stick with it long enough to get there Keep asking your questions. It is almost a certainty that at least one person will be able to answer, often several and between those answers hopefully you will get both information and understanding. We were all "newbies" to the breed once - some for a longer period than others - before we started to really understand this breed and in the end every one of us is still learning. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| This forum is an open platform. People can ask questions that they are too embarrassed to ask publicly without concern for that, or fear of their identity being exposed by a moderator. Just look at what that post added to us as a community. I didn't like the tone of the question, but I had some of the same questions that were posed in subsequent posts and I'm very glad to read the responses of others and of Amber. The "guest" added quite a bit to our understanding of the situation, the very difficult choices being made and the reasons others donated. Don't let a negative post change your own frame of mind. TRY not to be angry or annoyed. People -registered or not- who abuse others on the forum on a regular or consistent basis or otherwise violate our "Cup of Tea" mantra are managed as needed and as gently as possible to preserve harmony in the community. Every day I try to think and act out certain attitudes and behaviors such as: Don't let others run your outlook in life. Let insults roll off your back. Have a thicker skin. Embody our Cup of Tea Mantra; assume others meant no insult. Learn from people with whom you disagree. Love the world. Don't eat those carbs. I try every day. I don't succeed every day, but I try. Try with me? |
Ron wrote: Every day I try to think and act out certain attitudes and behaviors such as: Don't let others run your outlook in life. Let insults roll off your back. Have a thicker skin. Embody our Cup of Tea Mantra; assume others meant no insult. Learn from people with whom you disagree. Love the world. Don't eat those carbs. I try every day. I don't succeed every day, but I try. Try with me? Sounds good to me.  With all the hub-bub back and forth about the negative stuff I am still happy the sweet little girl was given a chance based on what the vet's opinion of her prognosis was. I know from recent experience how tough it is to decide which way to go ( I know also that it feels like you are taking a chance but for a positive outcome). I'm keeping Abby and her owner in my thoughts and hope for a wonderful, happy and healthy recovery for the little one. p.s. I continue to learn new things by following this forum community. Thanks. |
| Ron, I'm with Carl, sorry. I've learned to ignore most of the bitchy guest posts, but it's been clear there's at least one gutless/poisonous troll at work. I have no respect for people who have to hide their venom behind anonymity, it detracts from the forum. At least this last snarky "contribution" finally made me realize who one of them may be. Unfortunately this person/these people make me disinclined to answer any guest posts, even though I imagine there are more genuine people who use this option at times. But I've learned to tune most of them out as the word guest immediately gets my back up now. Do you really think people won't ask questions if forced to stand behind them and ask them in a civilized manner? Most of the people on this forum are better than that. This would never fly on an e-mail list. Kristine |
| First, Amber,How are YOU doing? Have you had any rest/sleep at all? How Abbey is doing? Is she giving you a hard time because she wants to play? In your spare time,(yah right ) Maybe some pictures? Take care.........Still keeping good thoughts and saying prayers. |
| The world is full of negative things and negative people; how we choose to deal with them is what makes us better. To be honest, I'm glad the Guest posted. I had similar questions, but didn't know how to ask them in a way that didn't seem rude. So I lucked out; an anonymous poster gets to take the heat for being rude, and I get a little more educated in the process! I call it a Win-Win!!! I'm looking forward to an update on Abby. When Amber posted that the poor girl had to be shaved on both sides for her surgery and her second surgery, I broke out my sewing machine, some scraps of fabric and a pattern I'd used last year for a rescue fund raiser. I made some dog coats in a couple of sizes for tiny little Abby. They aren't amazing, but at the rate Abby should start growing now, I don't think they need to be- the just need to keep her warm, and I figure its one less thing for Amber to have to spend money on. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: To be honest, I'm glad the Guest posted. I had similar questions, but didn't know how to ask them in a way that didn't seem rude. So I lucked out; an anonymous poster gets to take the heat for being rude, and I get a little more educated in the process! I call it a Win-Win!!! .Seriously? I never would have mistaken you for the wilting wall flower sort who can't ask a straightforward question in an intelligent and non-accusatory way?  Live and learn. Poor puppy. Shaved, stitched up and now faced with wearing a coat? At least tell me you're staying away from pink, and for god's sake don't let Val near her with bling... Very thoughtful of you. Kristine |
| ...um... all four coats are lined with TWO different shades of pink. As for wilting flower; certainly not. But its tough to know how to ask people about money situations; it's intensely personal and the situation with Abby has the added bonus of emotional complications. I may be brazen and bold, and I usually don't give a damned what people think of me, but I'm not a complete @$$. |
| I was out of pocket most all of yesterday when this discussion took place. It was late last night when I read through the post and I was too tired to post thoughts. But I do want to comment here-- When I read Amber's first post about little Abby's situation and the circumstances surrounding her care--I immediately thought that I would like to do something to help this little girl. I was more than happy to make a financial donation unconditionally. It did not occur to me in that moment--or since- to question anyone's ethics. This was a living puppy who had a chance at a full and happy life if the surgery in question was performed and the odds that the surgery would be successful were great. So I happily made a donation to help save a life. I don't care who we are or what our financial circumstances might be--an unexpected expense with the cap unknown is usually a life curve--for anyone--so I was glad to do for someone else what might make a tough situation a little easier--(that old 'Golden Rule' thing) that to me is an important rule... In the following days I did have some of the same questions that some of you have expressed--they crossed my mind. BUT I trusted that Amber as an experienced breeder who has a passion for what she does and clearly loves and cares for each puppy--would make the right decisions for this little girl. There were no unclear motives here--she was facing a very difficult decision as a person--not just as a breeder. As I had also just purchased a littermate of this little puppy--I trusted that if there was any concern at all-- that Amber would let me know what those concerns might be. Happily there are NO concerns that I need to worry about with my own little guy--and at this point due to kindness and generous hearts-- Abby has a chance at a full joyous life! Amber did not ASK for any help--and this was a puppy in a litter that she intended to place in loving homes--not one of her own dogs who suddenly developed a problem. Many people on this board made an offer to help--and to me kindness and generosity are never wrong. I too think it is very sad when someone attacks someone's reputation publicly and anonymously--if you have a problem with someone go to them privately and address the problem--don't be a coward and hide behind a post on the internet As long as I am blessed and can help when I chose too- I will continue to make the choices that I feel are right for me--whether it be a donation to a specific situation--a donation to a rescue group--or a helping hand to a friend or person I don't even know- who might be in need. I trust that EVERY reputable breeder has only the best intentions for the dogs that they produce and will make the right decisions to the best of their ability in each individual situation. In this situation--I am so happy that I could 'make a small difference' for little Abby! |
| I knew someone who purposely would egg people on to get them really pissed, on a CB radio. I was with him once when he started doing this and when I questioned why, he told me it was fun. If this is the case it certainly worked. |
| So happy for you. |
| I say we get back to the good news; any updates on Abby? How's she doing with her new feedings? |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I say we get back to the good news; any updates on Abby? How's she doing with her new feedings? Agreed! Abby is doing so good. She has not regurgitated once since her surgery, which is amazing. Feedings have increased to every few hours....she is one hungry girl and she is gaining weight nicely. Her yellow bandage will come off Friday, and I then will need to put warm compresses on her incisions as much as possible to promote healing. We have a follow-up appointment set up for February 22nd. Time to feed Miss Abby! |
| I read the guest's post too....whatever... Yippe on Abbey's continued improvement Continuing to send our healing prayers for that sweet angel I was liking that yellow bandage. She actually looked kind of cozy in it But if its an improvement to get her off it, then great news!Amber, you must be exhausted...hope you can get some much needed rest... |
| Great news!! More pics! More pics! (when you get a chance. no pressure ) |
| Whoo Hoo--go Abby girl! |
| Such good news! I'm glad to hear she is doing so wonderfully better! |
| Keep getting better precious Abby! Amber hope you're getting some rest and that the major stress is behind you! |
| I am so glad that Abby is doing good...and I am glad that Amber is doing better because Abby is doing good!! NOW I have to put my 2 cents I trust everyone on this forum...I may not have met everyone, but I know the members of this forum are honest, kind and the breeders here are doing the right things for the betterment of the breed. We all help each other in our own way, some of us help with donating funds....and ...some of us donate love and support....Both are equally important. Personally, my mantra has always been 'pay it forward'..I give freely and without strings. To be honest, if I did have questions about Abby, I wouldn't post publically, but I would PM Amber and ask my questions...I would sign my name of course, and by doing this , my questions would be more tactful and sensitive...I hate guests posting tactless, accusations without the responsibility of owning it... so there!!!! that is my opinion..... NOW one more thing.... MADDOG posted::: Quote: Poor puppy. Shaved, stitched up and now faced with wearing a coat? At least tell me you're staying away from pink, and for god's sake don't let Val near her with bling... Just so you know....there are official studies that have been conducted to substantiate BLING aid in healing, and recuperation whether it is human or pupper....so ....there....  |
sheepieshake wrote: ..... NOW one more thing.... MADDOG posted::: Quote: Poor puppy. Shaved, stitched up and now faced with wearing a coat? At least tell me you're staying away from pink, and for god's sake don't let Val near her with bling... Just so you know....there are official studies that have been conducted to substantiate BLING aid in healing, and recuperation whether it is human or pupper....so ....there.... Totally agree Val, Bling and abby being a pretty little girl, PINK PINK PINK to aid in recovery. !!!!!!!!!!! Lovely to hear Amber your special poppet is gaining weight and thriving since the Op. Sending lots of love to you and your family and of course abby. Is there special food you have to give her.... or a special way to feed her...... if so for how long does that have to be done...... An amazing outcome and I love this forum for all the special folks on it. Go abby bloom now and blossom as you are one special sheepie baby girl |
| Amber, How is Abbey today? Hope all is well |
| I just spoke with Amber, she says Abby is plumping up! : |
| |
| so glad Abby is doing so well. Soon she will be boss of the house because no one will ever be able to say no to her. Keep up the great work Abby and Amber!! |
| Yay Abby! Amber hope you can get some rest. |
| Great news little Abby |
| GO ABBY GO |
| Get Fat sweet little Abby!! Can't wait to see pics of her roly-poly tummy! |
| I know its only been a few more days; but I'd love an update on how Abby is faring! And of course, I'd love to hear that things have settled down for you Amber, and that all is well! (any new photos...?) |
| Updates will be posted this morning, along with new photos. Today is the big reveal, as her bandages are to be removed today in order for me to apply warm compresses to her incisions. She will also be sporting her new outfits courtesy of Allison today. As soon as I get everyone fed, both two and four legged, I will post Abbys 1 week update with photos. |
| Yippee!! |
| yay! |
Mad Dog wrote: [quote=" At least tell me you're staying away from pink, and for god's sake don't let Val near her with bling... Very thoughtful of you. Kristine OMDOG Kristine!! i had a mouth of chocolate milk which is now all over my laptop keyboard!!! I had no idea any of this was going on until tonight........ ANYONE who would question AMBER'S INTEGRETY as a breeder is someone with no brains. And I do agree, it is someone that is on this list but still logs on as guest to make low life statements. Yes, we've all learned about poor Abby's condition but let me tell you, the day we quit learning is the day breeders need to get out of breeding dogs! I certainly learned! I am proud that I am and have Amber for a friend and a co breeder! I am proud that I have Abby's sister Lucy! I've known Amber now for around 10 years and there isn't anyone else that i can say is as honest and outward as she is. I rarely come on OES.ORG anymore BECAUSE of the nasty trolls that have done numbers on me. I agree with Carl 100% that the 'guest' option should be eliminated. I don't have to deal with that on the 'other' site. I do miss a lot of you and hearing about your pups. but I don't have to allow myself to be kicked from someone hiding behind 'guest' either! |
| Glad evrything is well! |
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