OESxcorgi cross
Just curious. |
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| A rather bold statement! What would you be trying to introduce from corgis into OES? And I'm sure as with any breeding, you'd have to make sure the corgi in question possesses whatever it is, that the OES is also a superbly healthy example, but there would be no guarantee it would all work out in the puppies. |
i'm guessing you live somewhere where docking is banned and you're looking to get the natural bobtail so you can live with the breed you remember, yes? I don't know about the welfare implications, but I'm pretty sure at this time no kennel club I can think of is going to accept that 10-15 generations from now the resulting offspring will be considered OES. I know there's some precedence in other breeds, and in the future such "outcrosses" may be necessary to preserve some breeds, but I'm sure you've thought this through and realize this is a huge undertaking. What do you do with 10-15 generations of mixed breed puppies that don't make the grade in the interim?  The incredible expense etc. Daunting. But back to your original question, no, I've never seen this particular mix. Kristine |
| At the 10th generation the dogs would be 99.9% oes, by 15 they're essentially 100%, but I'm not sure of the clubs speficiations, at 5 generations they'd be 97% oes, but the dog would be healthier than any other oes line out there because they have hybrid vigour. And exactly right, I'm looking to see if I can get the natural bobtail from the corgi. As I said it's been successfully done with boxers. Right now I'm just curious about it and if anyone has tried. DEFINITELY no set plans to try. And you're right corgis have they're own set of genetic disorders to consider, however, cross breeding is the magic eraser, as we call it in genetics, for inbreeding= hybrid vigour. I currently live in the UK it's illegal to dock the tails except for certain working breeds. My main problem is that I will be returning to NA, but having personally docked several tails (horrible practice for the animals- so many pain indications) I am completely against the whole practice. Just wanted to see if there was a less painful way to have the bob in the animals. I won't dock tails unless it's for the health of the animal. And yes it's a huge task i wouldn't take it on lightly. Really I'm just curious if it's possible, I most likely won't do it, but it is interesting to think about. I was asking what the pups look like because the pups could still be homed, but just as mutts/designer dogs. The ones that don't turn out good enough to breed back to would still make wonderful pets. Regardless of the genetics they're all living breathing wonderful creatures and I don't see why i couldn't find a home. I wouldn't breed, even pure oes, unless i had homes for the pups before hand. I will not make unnecessary dogs. I'll still be a vet for my day job, but might keep myself busy with this project  Unfortunately, a lot of people in NA want that docked animal- not really sure why. Essentially I'm looking at making a manx cat in the oes line, i would always avoid breeding bobbed to bobbed as it's lethal recessive, at least i assume so. but half the litter (IF it worked) would be bobbed and half normal (but half of those carrying the gene for bobbed). Complex I know, but I understand what needs to be done and what i want to do just wondering if anyone ever thought about it/ tried it before? I still feel the pups would be ugly! But maybe so ugly they'd be cute who knows.Also, Thank-you both for your response I found them helpful and thought provoking  Don't worry i probably won't do the cross haha I'm not going to be breeding anything for years yet anyway. Just poking around right now. ~Victoria |
| I seem to recalla couple years ago you worked for a vet? Maybe he could give you more answers. I'm sure my vet would have TONS to talk about if I brought this up to him. Our breeders here are extremely knowledgable too. Shellie |
| I've only volunteered for vets or did placements at certain clinics, I'm actually finishing my vet med course now, that's where they brought the corgi x boxer up. There was a breeder determined to get bobbed tails in his boxers and successfully did so. The thing is corgi and boxers have very similar coats short haired, oes is quite different, it'd be a toss up if you could get what you want. They never mentioned how many times he had to make the F1 cross prior to finding enough individuals that kept the boxer traits to breed. I worked in research before my vet degree so i have excellent grounding for the genetics of breeding, but practical aspects are very different. I find they really skim things in the vet med courses, but the whole profession relies heavily on self learning I suppose. depends where you want to specialize. I was on placements and they had me doing tail docking. Everyone was less than 24 hours old but man were they showing such clear signs of pain, despite every human claiming that it didn't hurt. I never want to do it again. They really should be getting some form of pain medication for this procedure, but that's not my call- yet. I will ask a vet, but i just thought if anyone had heard or if there were any breeders they might know. Everyones been really knowledgeable and helpful as usual ~Victoria |
| I know very little about such things, but I thought that a naturally bobbed OES was a rare thing. |
| Hey Mady, It is rare, i'm looking at the logistics of introducing the genetic mutation (most breeders would call it a trait) from corgi's for bobbed tails into oes. Or if anyone has already tried it in the oes line before. But i might try talking to the boxer breeder and see how long it took him to get it into his dogs and other such information. The technique is often used in pure bred cattle and sheep to remove horns. the introduction of the genes also gives hybrid vigour (mutts are healthier and more intelligent than either of their pure bred parents) and helps with the already inbred oes' after all breed literally means inbred. inbreeding is a very useful and powerful tool so long as you don't have other hidden disorders in the line, which is rare. Does anyone else known of a breed that might be closer to oes with the bobtail mutation? The trick is really trying to find the mutation in a similar breed. That really does determine the success of this whole endeavor after all. |
Victoria01 wrote: the introduction of the genes also gives hybrid vigour (mutts are healthier and more intelligent than either of their pure bred parents) . Unfortunately practical experience shows us that's a competely bogus, no matter how seductive, claim. Exhibit A (sorry, Heather) - our resident Rude dog. Maybe an OES crossed with who knows what. More likely more of an exotic mix than simply breeding two purebred dogs together, which by your theory should have provided enough genetic variability to lend itself to a super-hybrid vigor dog, not a hypothyroid one who jumps out second story windows and tips over refrigerators  Exhibit B - the many doodle (designer) dogs with the same health problems as the breeds behind them. Cute. But any healthier? Nope. Wish it was that easy. I really do. Somewhere on the web, if you do a search, you can see pictures of some of the early corgi x boxer crosses. My understanding is that this cross wasn't done for health reasons, but rather to circumvent the docking ban, which I fully understand. Based on the many other, typically more incidental, OES crosses we regularly see I'd be willing to wager you'd probably get some long haired gray and white puppies and with enough breeding you could probably develop a start. Kim, you are correct - the rare natural bobtail OES is apparently prone to spinal problems based on the few anecdotal reports I've heard, though that is apparently not the case in corgis. which is one of the reasons it would make sense that the boxer breeder looked to them, despite starting with a square and much larger dog (as is our breed). Apparently the boxer head is the hardest thing to develop properly from this cross and though none of the dogs produced so far, last I heard, are boxer like enough to be shown, some of them can pass for the breed. Though you're not talking 10-15 generations, either, which is in real terms still quite a few years and potentially a lot of dogs. Personally I think we have bigger issues than docking bans, and that if something like this was ever to be attempted, say for instance the gene pool became so small it was deemed unsustainable, or there was a troublesome health problem in the breed that was so widespread you couldn't get away from it if you tried (the low uric acid dalmatians that go back to a pointer cross come to mind as an example) it would have to be a very coordinated and careful effort, and the outcross of choice probably wouldn't be with a corgi. Just my opinion, mind you. Kristine |
| Thank you for that excellent post, Kristine. I learned quite a lot from that. I am no geneticist but when really thinking it through, it seems illogical and to me, impossible that this would only take 15 generations. |
Quote: I'll still be a vet for my day job, but might keep myself busy with this project I guess this is what confused me. I think they may have left out quite a lot more in the "vet med" classes. (I'm not sure what that is) I'm pretty certain, with the docking bans, that there have been others to think of this. And yet we haven't seen any successful outcomes. There is a lot more to this than a knowledge of genetics, I promise. JMHO Shellie |
| Hi Interesting thread - for what its worth I would stay clear of crossing x dog with y dog. The main reasons would be that each breed sadly has some health concerns - hips, eyes, elbows to name but a few. How would you be improving two breeds of dogs, in this example the OES and the Corgi? I disagree with the doodle dogs - at the end of the day they are still a mongel - there is nothing wrong with mongels after all its the love of the dog thats important. When we had our litter in the 90's the babies were docked and this was completed via a different method than that of the vets. The only reason the Government decided to get involved was due to the vet - Trudi. Now I have heard on the grapevine that the docking ban will be lifted - when, who knows. When the docking ban was passed I thought long and hard do I keep with the OES or do I change my breed. As you've guessed the OES won - I have decided to live with the tail. I would rather live with a tail than live without the OES as I know and love..... I am not sure how the genetics of the cogi and OES would be improved - in England especially there are hardly any OES' around, which is a worry for me as I will be one of the people taking the breed into tomorrow. I have really had to have a look at the pedigees and the knowledge of working out who I should use on Tia - it was not an easy decision and thankfully in July we had two beauitful puppies. Now I am in the process of working out on who to use for her second and last litter - I have a few ideas. I think you need to re-consider your idea - either have a cogi or a OES but do not mix the two. I imagine the puppies would look strange and who in the public would buy them. The Cogi's afterall are a small dog where as the OES are a large breed - the dymanics of that alone would give an indication that this is something we shouldnt be doing. I always remember a friend of mine telling me that if you look at the animal of the cat - so the lion, the cheetah, the tiger - always mate with their own and we never see a lion crosed with a tiger for example. Thats my penny worth..... |
I think in the past. Breeders have tried to change the look of oes with too much inter breeding. I think they knew they had made a few mistakes & they are trying to change this. Going to other countries around the world & to improve the breeding so the generations will improve over the years. But the only problem is that you won't get a perfect dog/bitch as past genes will come back & haunt you. Same as humans. The only way to do this is to try & removes the said gene but that cost lots of money & time. But do you want a perfect dog/bitch. Bit like hitler (Blonde hair & blue eyes)  |
| I saw something, article or documentary maybe about the oes/boxer crosses, and after a few generations they did indeed look like boxers again and were having much fewer born with tails. To do with oes and another breed I think would be more difficult to maintain the breed standard, even if it were allowed. I wouldn't consider it unless you were sure offspring could then continue to be registered at some point. I think corgis are ugly personally (no offense to corgi lovers) and their tails are not quite short enough anyway. Right length for boxers, but oes should be flush with the bum with little to no stub. Genetically speaking re hybrid vigour, it's a crap shoot, you can get the best of the best or the worst of the worst or several of each and everything in between. I think only someone with a very deep understanding of genetics, health issues in both breeds, pedigrees going back as far as you can (1800's for oes, longer for corgis) and also a strong understanding of the anatomy and structure of the dog and it's movement and function of the tail should even attempt this. |
All I can say is why in the hell try  Yes natural bob tail gene is found in OES and not common at all and less in corgis with more in the boxer breed and not much success so far with people trying to use this gene of naturally bobbed. We even have here a bobbed tail cattle dog (called "Stumpy tailed cattle dog) but for every one born most of the litter tails and maybe one or so naturally bobbed. OES with a natural bob tail born, huge problems with as kristine mentioned and also knew of one here where born a natural bob and no anus outlet also. Also when born naturally bobbed usually still requiring a bit of docking as classed as naturally bobbed when even three quarters to half to a quarter long in the tail.If you are going down this path you are just breeding heinz vartiety dogs (Crosses-mongrels) and as far as producing naturally bobbed OES are you willing if you cross and breed on this way, to cull or give away offsring until many generations later you might if lucky produce something that looks like an oes with a natural bob tail for a not for profit prior to all this on the crosses  Yes we have a tail docking ban here, came in, in 2004 and after a lull in the breed with a tail, now opposite with a tailed oes, just not enough here to go around with people wanting the breed. I hope if you do advance whatever oes you are using in your breeding program comes with all the health clearances for the breed, along with the crosses of a another breed well tested and cleared and that follows on in future generations. Do you show your OES , have you had hips, elbows, eyes all done , do you know the breed standard and are you involved in a breed club over there , or is this just a thought without full invovlement in the breed at all levels Otherwise you are just adding to the so called designer crosses aka mongrels and expecting to charge full pedigree prices for puppies with a so called fancy names. Sorry about this post but I am passionate about the breed, with tail or docked why muck around with perfection. Give it time over there, tails will be the norm and accepted and if you are an accredited breeder and involved in the breed at all levels then you wont have any problems placing offspring without crossing the breed and producing mongrels, oes with tails or without there still all oes.  My tailed girl  Another of one of my tailed boys  And there mother a docked OES  Why muck around with a wonderfull breed with or without tails All you are doing is after many years still producing mongrels and therorectically producing another breed altogether. Sorry cant understand what you are trying to do to this wonderfull breed. You dont have my support at all in this way of thinking and trying to produce a dog with a bobbed tail, your just f...... up the breed altogether playing a genetic game with the breed |
| a friend has a Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen named Pocket -- I couldnt get over how much he looks like an OES - well a basset cross OEs, that is. Seeing this post made me think of him. |
lisaoes wrote: My tailed girl Another of one of my tailed boys And there mother a docked OES The judge with your tailed boy looks like Colin Barnes of Macopa - is it? I know Colin and Pauline really well. |
| I've loved and owned this wonderful breed since 1978 we have had 9 sheepies, 5 who were docked and four who had tails , I still would perfer our dogs to be docked but the law of our land and europe is no more docking:-( to put two different breeds together in the hope of a natural docked sheepie is not right think about it corgis are a very small dog and have Queen Ann legs,plus there coat colour is wrong brown/tri an OES is large and the size of a greyhound the two would not be compatable if I am right a corgi tail was docked but is not now ? We now live with 3 sheepies with tails wagging all the time Love Val |
| Moontime that is Colin . I do agree they should leave a breed alone as we have just got our sheepie & would not change her at all tea in china, If you look at the british bulldog has changed over the years. I saw a pic ( painting ) of one is was so diff. So in a way alot of dogs have changed over the years. Some I would say is good & some not. But if there was major issue with a breed would you try & improve it or get it back to what it used to look like |
| Just my opinion, but now that I've thought about it I think they'd be ugly as sin- plus they'd have cankles.  (But I'm not getting into yet another docking argument. ) Shellie |
Parwaz wrote: Moontime that is Colin . I do agree they should leave a breed alone as we have just got our sheepie & would not change her at all tea in china, If you look at the british bulldog has changed over the years. I saw a pic ( painting ) of one is was so diff. So in a way alot of dogs have changed over the years. Some I would say is good & some not. But if there was major issue with a breed would you try & improve it or get it back to what it used to look likeBefore the docking ban came in, us in UK who had docked breeds fought a long and hard battle to to keep docking ,sadly we lost  but we have had to get used to the tails (its just a little bit more to love ) Love Val |
Shellie wrote: Just my opinion, but now that I've thought about it I think they'd be ugly as sin- plus they'd have cankles. (But I'm not getting into yet another docking argument. ) Shellie I wasnt aware we were going to a docking argument. I think the docking issue is close to everyone's hearts - there will always be those that prefer OES' with a tail and those that prefer an OES' docked. There is no right or wrong answer, I believe. My personal view is I prefer them docked, however, I wasnt prepared never to borrow an OES once the docking ban came into force - so for now the tail won. |
Moontime wrote: The judge with your tailed boy looks like Colin Barnes of Macopa - is it? I know Colin and Pauline really well. [/quote]Yes it is judging the specialty in denmark last year and awarding our Aussie-viking man BIS, my boy lives in Norway.  |
lisaoes wrote: Moontime wrote: The judge with your tailed boy looks like Colin Barnes of Macopa - is it? I know Colin and Pauline really well. Yes it is judging the specialty in denmark last year and awarding our Aussie-viking man BIS, my boy lives in Norway. [/quote]He looks stunning your boy not necessary Colin as he always looks daper! |
| Do you in Denmark do alot of cutting of the hair when showing the OESD. I think in the UK they try & go for the natural look |
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