Tonks on Prozac: an Update
I thought I'd post an update on how Tonks is doing. As many of you know, my girls have been a bit whacky since day one. We've done tons of training to help keep them and their relationship with one another well balanced. But when my health began to severely decline a couple of years ago, I wasn't able to be as active with the girls, and Tonks' aggression towards Luna and other dogs (but mostly Luna) got more unpredictable and the resulting fights were more severe. What used to be 15 second reprimands from Tonks for going through a door way before her or taking the ball she was running after became fights resulting in trips to the vet. After one particularly scary trip, I asked the vet to start Tonks on Prozac. Well, its been about 6 months now. We've had to adjust her dosage a couple of times. Her appetite is still greatly decreased, and its a chore trying to get her to eat at every meal. But as of our annual trip to the vet least week she's gained 2 pounds back (she went from about 85 pounds to 62) and all her vitals look good. But best of all..... We're going on 4 months without a fight!!!!  My favorite side effect of the Prozac is one that I never anticipated: Luna is a very different dog! Without her sister to beat up on her for the slightest infraction, she's so much more relaxed and happy. She plays much more than she ever used to, often running for and getting the ball when we play fetch, where in the past she'd watch, or run but never challenge Tonks for the ball. And Tonks is happy to let her get it. Even more interestingly, if Luna ever had the ball, she never used to drop it. I think she knew that if she gave it up, Tonks would get it and she wouldn't get it back. We used to play fetch with 2 balls; one in Luna's mouth the whole time, and one that I'd kick for them to chase, but ultimately for Tonks to return to me. We now play with one, each gets it and brings it back, and Luna will gladly drop it so I can kick it for them again!!! Luna now hops up on the bed to cuddle; that used to be something only Tonks would do. I always thought Luna just didn't like being on the bed, or that she was too heavy to get up (she's been on a diet and has lost about 10 pounds). I think the combination of Luna's lost weight and Tonks being more chill has opened up the option of getting on the bed for Luna! And best of all, something I've just noticed in the past couple weeks or so.... the girls have begun cuddling with each other again!  I don't think I'd noticed that they'd stopped doing it, until I saw them sleeping together at Christmas. Ever since I've been watching for it, and see it all the time now. We've been going back to our training classes twice a week; my health has improved enough since my surgery that I can manage it again. I'm hoping to get Tonks accustomed to behaving properly with other dogs. She used to be great at dog parks and doggie day care. We're working towards getting back to that. I know only time will tell, but much of our ability to even try is thanks to the great results we've had with the Prozac! |
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 took awhile but glad it's finally working!! |
SheepieBoss wrote: :excited: took awhile but glad it's finally working!!Its actually been working for quite some time; I was just afraid that if I said anything prematurely, I'd be jinxing us. We've gone without a fight between the girls for over 4 months now. When they would fight, girls didn't do it all that often; sometimes it would be once every 4-6 weeks. So I wanted to wait, and make sure this just wasn't an usually long rest between bouts. But with them snuggling up with each other, I think we're seeing much of that unwanted behavior move behind us! |
That is very good news Allison!  You have worked so hard and been so patient with your girls--you deserve the peace and hopefully you can really enjoy your girls without the worry of a fight! I admire all that you have done and have learned a lot as you have shared the details of your journey. Really good news in this update! |
 Coz was on prozac for his fear issues from about 1 yr. to about 4 yrs. With the vets permission, we took him off, I wanted to see if his fear issues had dimished and they had!!!!! Now he is med-free and although it still takes time for him to warm up to strangers in the house, he is not as bad. I am so glad everything is working out~~~ you guys really deserve a break~~~~  |
| That is a super update! I'm glad it's helping Tonks...and everyone else in the house as a result. |
| Great news! You've been working so hard for this, and I'm glad you're getting positive results. Fingers crossed for more happy days! |
Hooray for Prozac and for your perseverance!! Yay!    |
| great news i know you must be able to take a nice long breath... |
| Great that the girls are getting along so much better and Luna seems happier. |
| You guys really are an inspiration in love and perseverance. |
| You are such a good mom, Allison. Your patience and belief in Tonks triumphed So happy for all of you |
| I'm so glad things are working out with your girls. Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
| Couldn't ask for better news!!! Between the peace between the girls and you feeling better physically, life just keeps getting better and better for you all! Well deserved! And I'm sure that since there's been peace with the girls, they have picked up on your less tense moods as well. Just an all-around win-win situation!! |
| That's great news Allison! Cindy |
| I didn't want to make this post; I was afraid I'd jinx our good luck so far. And... Tonight Luna did the unthinkable; she finished her dinner, and shoved Tonks off her bowl and started to eat Tonks dinner. The whole time she was growling and ready to attack; I've never seen her like this. Tonks stood her ground, and didn't attack. In the past, this would have been a nightmare. I told Tonks to "find Adam" and she went and sat with Adam while I reprimanded Luna and sent her to Place. Luna challenged Tonks and Tonks didn't escalate the situation! She stayed cool and waited to be told what to do! She got a lot of love and treats while Luna watched from her time out. I love my dogs SO MUCH. As much and as hard as we try to make things work, they work just as hard as we do. I adore my girls to bits!!!!  |
| Very good news. Don't forget, some scuffles are normal (just so when they inevitably do it, you won't feel too bad). We had one while I was dishing up food a couple days ago - Harley and Riley went at it. These 2 have never ever before, I guess someone looked at someone wrong! They are both the 2 most likely to get impatient and talk, so looking back, I shouldn't be that surprised  I did intervene, as I wasn't quite sure where this would lead.... as a hound and terrier usually are pretty persistent! |
| Glad its working out And, oh, is the Prozaxz for you or the dogs! (only kidding)!!!  |
| Great news! Hope it continues! |
| What a relief! And Luna is more reaxed. That's wonderful!!! This is really great news! Never heard of Prozac....what is it? I know a couple who has two bitches that fights now and then. Ashley wrote: :cheer: Glad its working out And, oh, is the Prozaxz for you or the dogs! (only kidding)!!! Well - I think I've known some human beings who could benefit on some of that stuff too......  |
| YEAH! That is great news. |
Labbetussa wrote: : This is really great news! Never heard of Prozac....what is it? Prozac is the brand name for the drug Fluoxetine. It's normally prescribed for humans; its a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) antidepressant. Prozac affects chemicals in the brain that may become unbalanced and cause depression, panic, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive symptoms. Prozac is used to treat major depressive disorder, bulimia , Bi-polar disease (manic depression), obsessive-compulsive disorder, panic disorder, and premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD). There's a canine version, but its the exact same thing as the human one, and the human one costs significantly less. |
| Glad things are working out. Your patience has paid off. Just remember any people or animals that live in the same place will have a rare disagreement. As long as it doesn't escalate, which you seemed to have handled wonderfully, all is good. |
| I know that multi-dog households will have fights. The reason we turned to the Prozac was that our normal scuffle every 4-6 weeks had turned into something much more serious. The final straw was a fight where both girls had to go to the vet for sutures. Once upon a time we'd get a small scrape on an ear, and it was no big deal. But a few true punctures close to eyes and arteries made me realize that things were escalating, and I felt that if I didn't escalate my treatment of the situation, if one of the girls was blinded or worse, it would be my fault for not trying every option available to us. |
| Such good news!! |
| Glad the Prozac seems to working well for you. But if you decide for whatever reason to discontinue it, please, please be aware that for many humans, there can be severe withdrawal side effects. Many doctors who prescribe anti-depressants are not even aware of this. I took anti-depressants for three years longer than I needed to simply because I couldn't cope with the withdrawal. I finally picked a time when I didn't have many obligations and could spare two weeks to get through it. Much, much harder than when I quit smoking many years ago. I wouldn't put a dog through it. Just sayin', FWIW. |
| you have done a wonderful job with your girls!!! I am so happy you have finally had great results!!!! |
| Well, Tonks has been on her Prozac for almost a year now, and they are doing great... or they WERE. This week the girls have had FOUR FIGHTS, two of them fairly serious. What the hell?? We've had no fighting at all, and suddenly this week its all crazy throw downs over and over. I'm at a bit of a loss. I have a few theories, but right now I'm just really angry. I'm angry at the girls because of course with Sheepie Palooza coming up they'd start acting like idiots. But mostly I'm furious because after today's fight Adam suggested that maybe I don't take the girls to training often enough. I haven't taken them to a class in a week and a half. I wanted to say "How about you don't take them to training class EVER". But I bit my tongue. How is this my fault? I do so much, I never get a thank you, but the minute things go south its all my fault???  I'm SUPER cranky right now! And our trainer is away in Italy, so I can't ask for her professional opinion. (But its my fault we haven't gone to class). |
 I am so sorry, I really thought this was history.It's nobodys fault! Maybe your girls need some distance between them for a while? Until you find out what's wrong now: Take care and be nice to yourself. |
| I'm blaming it on the full moon. I hope you are able to work them through this latest set of incidents. Being back at class will help I'm sure - how dare your trainer go on vacation! |
| Oh no!!!! Maybe something has changed that you're not aware of, another dog in the neighbourhood?? I so feel your pain. My Mom is staying as of yesterday, I'm on crutches and Tiggy is being a brat and jumping all over the sofas (and my Mom) and Wayne cracked it last night. He has NEVER taken them to training and he laughs at me when I grumble at him for undermining her training. Now he's in a poopy about the claw marks on the new sofa when he's the one who lets Tiggy get up there in the first place.  Why do they (sheepies) know stuff like the trainer's away and something important is coming up??? Psychic creatures that they are. All the best, sending you calm vibes. For you and the girls. |
| I have a few ideas of what may be causing it. Tonks being so calm these days, Luna has begun to challenge her. The first fight we had happened after Luna slept on the bed in Tonks' spot, and Tonks had to sleep on the floor. Luna has never been into being on the bed, but she now insists on sleeping on it every night. Also, Luna used to get a long walk very day, and Tonks would get a short walk. I've changed that recently. Since they are doing so well, and I'm feeling so much better, I've begun taking them both on the long walk together, making them walk side by side in a heel. I think Luna might be missing her one-on-one time with me, so acting out. I think she's been starting the fights, challenging Tonks. I mean to start doing two walks a day; one in the morning with just Luna, and then one in the afternoon where I expect them both to walk together. I'm hoping this will allow Luna her one-on-one time, will still forcing them to work as a team. I'm just angry that Adam was such a jerk about this. I'm still fuming. |
| Yes adam "Huge Jerk" you an angel. Hoping all is going to go well, you've done everything right for the girls and hopefully harmony soon in the house. As they say one step back, two steps forward and I admire you with what you do with the girls soooooo much |
| The slightest change in routine can be enough can't it? So frustrating when you had them all settled. Wayne has been up in the bedroom most of the afternoon because he gets bored with listening to my Mom and I chat. Three times now I've wondered where Tiggy is and found her up on the bed with Wayne. This is the guy who got snarky over Tiggy jumping on the sofas. I fume with you!! |
| Pretty common. When all is well it is "our" dog(s) but when trouble is brewing it suddenly becomes "your" dog. I think it is part of the reaction of "I have no clue what's happening but you should" syndrome. Since we expect them to be able to read minds this is them telling us of their frustration and fears. Bundle her up and out of the house, together you can let the fuming cool down. Back to the old routine too. |
| We had two females once and I swore I'd never do it again. One was a Chow mix who wasn't particularly fond of other dogs in general, and she and our Sheepie went at each other to the point where the Sheepie had 13 stitches in her throat one time. And, of course, my husband and I always blamed each other when there was a fight! We were both just so freaked out at the visciousness of it. When the Sheepie passed, we got a male puppy, and things settled down considerably. We did learn that we needed to give the Alpha dog her due - let her go first in all things, including feeding, out the door, etc. It was our natural instinct to favor the male because he was younger and more submissive, but it turned out to be the exact wrong thing to do. They grew old together quite nicely and both have passed on. We have kept the male-female thing going, although now we have two females and a male, with the older female again being the dominant one. It's always scary when they mix it up. |
| i know how tuff this must be i have no clue but sending you a hug!! take a deep breath! the only 2 times my past girls dolly and daytona has a fight was both times a full moon my vet told me she gets dogs in more during that time .. try and hang in there |
| Wow, Allison, that is exciting news. Congratulations on having found a solution to the problem. Linda Zimmerman & Hudson, Chloe & Kristy |
oes wrote: Wow, Allison, that is exciting news. Congratulations on having found a solution to the problem. Linda Zimmerman & Hudson, Chloe & Kristy the problem is not solved  |
no, but I felt like we were really, really close. I'm hoping that the moon is our culprit. What with it being a Supermoon and all, it makes the most sense for why all of a sudden the girls began to fight again.  I hope. |
| I also think the moon had something to do with it. Oscar is the first dog I've ever had that was affected by a full moon. I'll notice a gradual ramping up of anxiety, tummy issues, etc., with no known origin, until I look in the night sky and notice that the moon is waxing. Sure enough, when the moon starts waning, he goes back to "normal", whatever that is. In the beginning, I thought I might be wrong, by my vet friends all say that they always get busier with emergencies during a full moon, so there is something to it.I love my little, furry lunatic!!!  Hope things settle down soon. Laurie and Oscar |
| Let's blame all the bad behavior (Adam's too!) on the moon. Hoping it will pass as the full moon wanes. You've worked so hard and the effort has paid off. This is just a slight hiccup. Trust your instincts and do what you know to do until your trainer gets back. |
| Well, I'm back again with another progress update. It seems after that last slip, things really did go back to normal. And now, 5 months later, the girls are mis-behaving again. It seems as though Tonks' medicine has stopped working, and quite suddenly too. Has anyone using Prozac on their dogs ever heard of this happening? My first indicator that something was wrong was that Tonks regained her appetite about a week ago. One of the side effects of the Prozac that I have never liked is that it reduces Tonks' appetite. She's down to bare-bones minimum weight, and I'm always changing her food up to see if I can lure her into eating more. And that's what I thought had happened the first few days she cleaned her bowl out in minutes; I thought she must like the latest new food I was trying. When it continued, I thought maybe the cool weather was increasing their activity level (it always does) and maybe that was increasing her appetite. But it was a first warning sign for me that something was up with Tonks' Prozac. Then yesterday, after training class at the park, Tonks tried to attack Luna. She saw a little dog on a leash, she and Luna lunged after it, and when I hauled back on their leashes Tonks deflected that attack to Luna. They stopped when I told them to, but I'm very unhappy that they started at all. Then Tonks got growly at Luna twice in the house yesterday, and this morning when I took them out to pee she picked a fight. This has degenerated really, really quickly. Adam's first instinct (again) is to tell me that I don't train enough. But we average 1-2 classes a week. I think a concern I have is that our advanced level class has become more walks and social time than they really are putting them through drills; which is something I can and sometimes do at home anyway. I had feared the new kitten would stimulate fights; I thought the dogs would try and guard him, or chase him; but he's been here 2 months now and the dogs have been fine with him. So... anyone have any similar experiences? |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Well, I'm back again with another progress update. It seems after that last slip, things really did go back to normal. And now, 5 months later, the girls are mis-behaving again. It seems as though Tonks' medicine has stopped working, and quite suddenly too. Has anyone using Prozac on their dogs ever heard of this happening? My first indicator that something was wrong was that Tonks regained her appetite about a week ago. One of the side effects of the Prozac that I have never liked is that it reduces Tonks' appetite. She's down to bare-bones minimum weight, and I'm always changing her food up to see if I can lure her into eating more. And that's what I thought had happened the first few days she cleaned her bowl out in minutes; I thought she must like the latest new food I was trying. When it continued, I thought maybe the cool weather was increasing their activity level (it always does) and maybe that was increasing her appetite. But it was a first warning sign for me that something was up with Tonks' Prozac. Is there a way the dr can check her/his level of Prozac in bloodwork like they do to people? Maybe it dropped for some reason, bad batch or need to change. Then yesterday, after training class at the park, Tonks tried to attack Luna. She saw a little dog on a leash, she and Luna lunged after it, and when I hauled back on their leashes Tonks deflected that attack to Luna. They stopped when I told them to, but I'm very unhappy that they started at all. Then Tonks got growly at Luna twice in the house yesterday, and this morning when I took them out to pee she picked a fight. This has degenerated really, really quickly. Adam's first instinct (again) is to tell me that I don't train enough. But we average 1-2 classes a week. I think a concern I have is that our advanced level class has become more walks and social time than they really are putting them through drills; which is something I can and sometimes do at home anyway. I had feared the new kitten would stimulate fights; I thought the dogs would try and guard him, or chase him; but he's been here 2 months now and the dogs have been fine with him. So... anyone have any similar experiences? |
| I have no experience to add in about if it's normal for the Prozac to suddenly change - sounds like on a metabolic level too. Sorry it's happening though  |
| Hm, I have no advice for you, but I hope everything gets back to normal soon! They had Jacob on Prozac, after six days he had serious side effects. |
| Hey Alison I'm sorry to hear that there's been a glitch. I have no experience in regard to dogs and prozac but I can offer you some info regarding humans and Prozac. First a definition. Antidepressant tachyphylaxis describes the return of apathetic depressive symptoms, such as fatigue and decreased motivation, despite continued use of a previously effective treatment. Second tachyphylaxis is known to occur in humans using Prozac, so I'd guess it would also occur in canines. Therefore whatever symptoms were being controlled by the Prozac would be expected to reoccur if tachyphylaxis occurred in regard to your use of Prozac. That being said I would not initially assume tachyphylaxis but would look closely at environmental factors, which I know you are already very aware of and sensitive to. Less exercise, change in weather, change in food, change in one on one time etc could all play a role. It's so hard to figure out what has changed. The change in appetite has me suspicious though. I'd want to talk to my vet about possible causes and the need to increase the dose or change the meds if this turns out not to be an isolated incident. All the best Mim |
| Check her thyroid? Full panel. Kristine |
Mim wrote: That being said I would not initially assume tachyphylaxis but would look closely at environmental factors, which I know you are already very aware of and sensitive to. Less exercise, change in weather, change in food, change in one on one time etc could all play a role. It's so hard to figure out what has changed. You're SO right! I injured myself working out, and haven't been able to give the girls their walks; something they were really enjoying. It's been almost 2 weeks; so I'm sure Tonks is getting a little stir-crazy! Mim wrote: The change in appetite has me suspicious though. I'd want to talk to my vet about possible causes and the need to increase the dose or change the meds if this turns out not to be an isolated incident. All the best Mim The appetite thing is what bothered me too; but yesterday a friend had a really good point. She was over, and observed that the new kitten eats hi s food in a bowl on the floor right next to Tonks. She commented about how she can't feed her cats and dogs together, as the cats bully the dogs out of the bowls. She wondered if Tonks was suddenly eating all her food to protect it from the kitten eating it. As an experiment, I fed the kitten an hour earlier, and in another room last night. Sure enough, Tonks wasn't interested in her dinner! I brought the kitten into the kitchen, where Tonks eats, and gave him a tablespoon of wet-food in a bowl on the floor, and suddenly Tonks devoured her dinner. It sure would be wonderful if lack of exercise and the new kitten are the explanations to our relapse in behavior! |
| Good work detective Alison. Hope things are settling back to normal. |
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