Third Time Is A Charm
 It is the same sub-species (schleiferi), so it looks as though it is morphing. First time, it was susceptible to Zeniquin, which Oscar was on for six weeks, one week past his "no-growth" culture. Second time, it was susceptible to Zeniquin AND Doxycycline, but we caught it really early, and treated with Zeniquin for three weeks, again, one week past a "no-growth" culture. Now it is no longer susceptible to Zeniquin, but is susceptible to Doxycycline, as well as a topical, Mupirocin. We are trying to treat it topically for now, as it is, again, one tiny, tiny lesion on his flank. If I see any other lesions, or this one doesn't improve in a week or so, then we will start Doxycycline. Environmentally speaking, I am currently mopping floors as directed to kill MRSA, and washing Oscar's beds on the "sanitary wash" setting on my washing machine, which is the highest hot water setting. He is still getting weekly baths, which may be helping to get the bacteria off him before it gets a serious foothold. I also clean Oscar's grooming tools with MRSA killing sprays and washes, including brushes and combs, EVERY TIME I use them. I am currently looking into more immune booster supplements. Other than that, I don't know what else to do, short of putting Oscar in a plastic bubble. Happy Friggin' New Year! Laurie and Oscar |
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Laurie, I'm so sorry for you and Oscar, that's a whole lot going on at your house. I don't have much advice but just a big hug for both of you  mainly. I'm sure you are cleaning everything very well and letting things "soak" for several seconds before wiping dry. That's the only thing I might add and all the disinfectants say that on the label.  I will be interested in hearing about immune boosting supplements too. |
| do people come and visit??? is it possible that it is catching a ride on someone and entering the house that way? I know that when I took my horse to Cornell they had these basins that you had to step in whenever you entered the area to cut down on the bacteria coming into the hospital. It sounds as if you are a cleaning machine but maybe your guests need to "clean their hands and feet/shoes" before coming to visit. They say some people are chronic carriers of MRSA and don't even know it. |
| Laurie's on the right track thinking in terms of boosting his immune system - these pathologies are out there, we're all exposed to them, only an organism with a weakened/supressed/trashed immune system is generally susceptible. The logical "solution", ah, yes, were it that easy, is to strengthen the immune system to reduce susceptibility (you can't bleach your guests or, indeed, put the poor boy in a bubble) Steriods act to surpress an overactive immune system, good for a body in overdrive. Bad for long term use since it can lead to increased susceptibility to opportunisitic infections (as well as, among other things, Cushings, hypothyroidism etc). In other words, a vicious circle. In Oscar's case, if I'm not mistaken <?>, he's been on low doses of steroids (pred?) since he was a puppy with a corresponding immature immune system, meaning his immune system most likely never developed properly to begin with. To try to boost his immune system you'd have to wean him off the steroids whilst working to get his immune system back in balance to correct for the reason you were giving him steroids in the first place - this is the kind of approach a holistic vet would must likely take in any event. I don't know how successful they are, and it seems like it would take a tremendous leap of faith at his age and in his condition, yet I can't begin to imagine the frustration of living like this  I'm so sorry. You both deserve better.Kristine |
| I haven't had experience with MRSA on animals, but Hubby had a very nasty bout several years ago. In addition to his oral antibiotics, I used hot compresses with Slippery Elm, which really drew out the infection. I've used it several times since then (translation: "no health insurance") and can't rave enough about how effective it is. As far as I know, Slippery Elm is fine to use with dogs (I've seen recommendations for taking it internally), but with the topical treatment you're using, I'd check with the vet to see if this might be a good complementary treatment. Good luck, and I hope poor Oscar improves soon! |
| There is a GREAT product on the market called Vetericyn that treats MRSA. My daughter has MRSA and at the start of a spot we treat with this and it is gone. You can get it at a feed or farm supply store. I get the hydro gel spray and it stays right on the spot. I have also used it on and in my dogs ears and it clears the yeast right up! I love it! |
Oh, Laurie... I've been thinking of you and have been meaning to write to ask how Oscar was doing.  Remember when Holly mentioned giving CAS Options to Beau Beau? Kathy had asked her vet about giving to Quinn who was told by a veterinary oncologist that he recommended it. I've got Maggie on it too... I asked our homeopathic vet about it too... below was his reply. Note that Maggie has soft tissue sarcoma... (I don't need to say to run everything I say past a vet first before using it!) Quote: Looking at options that are toxic and/or suppressive of the immune system are probably not in her best interest. The lump that was removed yesterday was the result of her disease, not the cause of it... (removed part about Cushings remedy) ... add in those antioxidants, boost the immune system with medicinal mushrooms or Pau d'arco, and maybe add in Artimesinin. HOT water... it was another thing we did when Bumble's skin was out of control. The hot water here would scald. I'm always careful and keep my hand constantly in the water spray when bathing the dogs just to be safe. I'm sure the temperature would kill just about anything. sheepiegail wrote: They say some people are chronic carriers of MRSA and don't even know it. I had read this a few years ago too. So when Bumble kept getting recurring staph infections, I went to the doctor and had myself tested so I could cross that off my list of things to try in an effort to make him better. I wasn't a carrier but we weren't dealing with MRSA either. I agree with Kristine about the steroids but I know you've tried to get him off them before. Did you mention before that the level was no higher than that normally found in dogs? I think you also mentioned a holistic vet before but just thought I'd share a chart that Dr. Dodds has on the Nutriscan website... it mentions immune balancing herbs... http://nutriscan.org/images/stories/nfc.pdf I know it's a delicate balance with Oscar and I know the anguish and unbelievable number of hours it takes trying to keep his stable. He is SO lucky you love him! Please keep us posted on how he's doing. jonsey wrote: Slippery Elm is fine to use with dogs (I've seen recommendations for taking it internally) Slippery Elm is a nice homeopathic remedy, isn't it! I haven't used it topically but it's said to help heal the gut and help with diarrhea. "Homeopathic Care for Cats & Dogs" by Don Hamilton, DVM. I mix it in a bit of weak broth and they take it willingly. |
| Laurie: I second what Tootsmalone recommended. When Kahlua was infested with mange, I used this Vetricyn to treat the hot spots and the sites where there were secondary infection due to scratching. The cold gel stays put and it is soothing to the itchiness. I also use it for minor burning on myself. It is very handy in the kitchen as I tend to get my lower arm too close to a boiling pot  a lot.On the label, it says it is good for treating or preventing hot spots, rain rot, rashes, post-surgical sites, burns, cinch fungus, ring worm, skin infections, scratches, eye infections, skin ulcers, thrush, insect bites, e.coli, strep and staph. |
Tootsmalone and SaintOES  ... that sounds like it would be GREAT to keep on hand for everyday use!Here's the website, Laurie- http://vetericyn.com EntirelyPets carries that too... http://www.entirelypets.com/vtrcynvfhydglspry8oz.html http://www.entirelypets.com/vtrcynunhydglspry8oz.html Quote: One-step topical water-based Vetericyn VF HydroGel spray that cleans wounds, treats infections and kills bacteria including antibiotic-resistant MRSA. Thanks for mentioning this product. |
| Jaci: I use slippery elms on my cat too. One of my cats have a very bad gas problem with her stomach and she vomits a lot, especially after meals. So once a day an hour before meal time, I feed her slippery elms dissolved in warm water with a syringe. I think the slippery elms helps balance the internal environment of her guts and it helps the food stay down. Sorry for going off topic  Oh and I also got my Vetericyn from Entirelypet too  |
| Aww... I'm glad it helps your kitty. It helped Panda in the past with tummy trouble too. Below's an article on slippery elm. It mentions topical use too. (NOTE: Dosages are for HUMANS... if anyone reads the article, be sure ask a vet about pet dosages.) http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/slip ... 000274.htm SaintOES wrote: Oh and I also got my Vetericyn from Entirelypet too I think we should ask Entirely Pets for an OES.org coupon code.   OOPS! I think the 16oz bottle is only a little more than the 8oz. http://www.entirelypets.com/vtrcynvfhydglspry16oz.html http://www.entirelypets.com/vtrcynunhydglspry16oz.html Is the white bottle twice the strength of the blue bottle or is there another difference? I have to order more shampoo so thought I'd order a bottle too... trying to decide which one... |
Thank you for all of the help, everyone! I love this place!  I am checking into the Vetericyn. Entirelypets should start sending us some bonus checks! Yes, we tried to get Oscar off his daily low dose of pred for two years, but every time we so much as tapered off, he would have a pancreatic attack or a severe bout of IBD. When he had his last extremely severe bout of pancreatitis in July, Oscar went completely lame as well, and we came close to losing him. Oscar's internist is convinced that the lameness was a result of not taking his pred for three days, due to the pancreatitis. (My vets did not tell us until afterwards, but they did not think Oscar was going to make it.). Though my vets hate, hate, hate to use pred, and use it only as a last resort, they are convinced that its use has prolonged Oscar's life significantly, and given him a good quality of life as well. But it's a balancing act. While the pred helps with the severe digestive issues, it disrupts his body's ability to ward off these darn infections. Due to the complexity of Oscar's situation, I have to very careful about what I introduce into his environment, or more importantly, into his system. We have seen the downhill domino effect many times with him, and I am ultra-cautious about disturbing the delicate balance unless absolutely necessary. His health is like a house of cards. Hit one card with a tiny bit of wind and the whole thing comes tumbling down. Thanks again for all of the suggestions. I will keep you posted on where the research takes me. Laurie and Oscar |
| Mine is the blue bottle. They didn't carry the white ones back then. While I recommend this Vetericyn, I also want to point out that although my experience with it has been positive, the hot spots were healed, I didn't encounter any wound healing problems or uncontrollable infection problem...we can't ignore that while I used Vetericyn on her, I also was using all our favorite medicated shampoo, and she was also on meds at that time. So I really couldn't isolate which was the real main help...the Vetericyn? the shampoo? or the med? That's why I never recommended this to Jaci or Laurie before even though I have been following Bumble's and Oscar's healing journey. But then again, if you haven't tried it before, it is a new hope and it wouldn't hurt to try  and hopefully this is the one miracle we have been hoping for  |
| Microbiology Vetericyn formulation based on our technology Vetericyn’s technology with preservative demonstrated rapid activity against a broad spectrum of gram-positive, gram-negative and yeast species with the following in vitro time kill method results in solution: These are in solution kill times Name of Organism Time to Kill Percent Reduction MRSA - Staphylococcus aureus 30 seconds 99.9999% VRE - Enterococcus faecalis 30 seconds 99.9999% Staphylococcus aureus 30 seconds 99.9999% Escherichia coli 30 seconds 99.9997% Acinetobacter baumannii 30 seconds 99.9999% Bacteroides fragilis 30 seconds 99.9999% Candida albicans 30 seconds 99.9999% Enterobacter aerogenes 30 seconds 99.9999% Enterococcus faecium 30 seconds 99.9999% MRSA - Staphylococcus aureus 30 seconds 99.9999% Klebsiella oxytoca 30 seconds 99.9999% Klebsiella pneumoniae 30 seconds 99.9999% Micrococcus luteus 30 seconds 99.9999% Proteus mirabilis 30 seconds 99.9999% Pseudomonas aeruginosa 30 seconds 99.9998% Serratia marcescens 30 seconds 99.9999% Staphylococcus epidermidis 30 seconds 99.9999% Staphylococcus haemolyticus 30 seconds 99.9999% Staphylococcus homins 30 seconds 99.9996% Staphylococcus saprophyticus 30 seconds 99.9999% Streptococcus pyogenes 30 seconds 99.9999% Bactericidal and fungicidal activity (suspension tests) The antimicrobial activity of our technology has been demonstrated against a variety of microorganisms in several in-vitro studies. Our technology has been tested against a variety of organisms, including the five most common bacteria found in hospitals (Mangram, 1999): Staphylococcus aureus, Coagulase-negative Staphylococcus spp. (such as Staphylococcus epidermidis), Enterococcus spp. (such as Enterococcus hirae), Escherichia coli, and Pseudomonas aeruginosa. Our technology demonstrated a 106 reduction after 15 seconds of exposure against all five organisms. An in vitro time kill evaluation was performed using our technology versus challenge suspensions of 50 different microorganism strains (25 American Type Culture Collection [ATCC] strains and 25 clinical isolates of those same species) as described in the Tentative Final Monograph. After exposure for 30 seconds, there was a reduction of the bacterial load >5 log10 in the following samples: Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Escherichia coli, Enterococcus hirae, Acinetobacter baumanni, Acinetobacter species, Bacteroides fragilis, Enterobacter aerogenes, Enterococcus faecalis, Vancomycin-resistant Enterococcus (VRE), Haemophilus influenzae, Klebsiella oxytoca, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Micrococcus luteus, Proteus mirabilis, Serratia marcescens, Staphylococcus aureus, Staphylococcus epidermidis, Staphylococcus haemolyticus, Staphylococcus pyogenes, and Candida albicans (BioScience Labs, Bozeman, Mont.). (Gutiérrez 2006). Bactericidal and fungicidal activity (carrier tests) In various tests, the bactericidal and fungicidal properties of our technology have been tested in accordance to EPA DIS/TSS guidelines. Under these conditions, our technology has totally inhibited the growth of the following microorganisms: Mycobacterium bovis (OT #105401) in 5 minutes; P. aeruginosa (ATCC #15442), S. aureus (ATCC #6538), Salmonella choleraesuis (ATCC #10708), Methicillin-resistant S. aureus (MRSA, ATCC #33592); and Trichophyton mentagrophytes (ATCC #9533) in 10 minutes; and Vancomycin-resistant Enterococcus faecalis (VRE, ATCC#51299) in 15 minutes (ATS Labs, Eagan, MN). Virucidal Our technology was tested to determine the virucidal characteristics against the Human Immunodeficiency Virus type 1 (HIV-1), Strain HTLV-IIIB, in accordance with the U.S. EPA DIS/TSS-07 guidelines. The virus was applied as a dried film on sterile, glass Petri dishes, followed by exposure to MCN for 10 minutes. Subsequently the virus was separated from the test substance by gel filtration and titrated by serial dilutions for infectivity assay. Conclusion: per dilution groups (7 groups: 101 through 107), 8 samples were observed and in no sample infective activity was detected. The reduction in viral titer was ≥ 3.75 log10 for all samples. Under the conditions of this investigation, our technology demonstrated complete inactivation of HIV-1 following a 10-minute exposure time, in accordance with virucidal requirements as defined by the EPA. [ATS labs, U.S.] Other viral inactivation studies have shown that our technology reduces ≥ 3 log the load of Influenza A virus (A/HK68), Rhinovirus type 37 (ATCC VR1147 ) and Human coronavirus (ATCC 740) after 30 seconds of exposure (APPTEC – ATS labs, U.S.). Sporicidal Our technology was tested to determine sporicidal characteristics against spores of Bacillus subtilis (ATCC #6633). The test was conducted in accordance with the BS EN 14347:2002 ‘draft’ standard. A spore solution with a concentration of 108 – 109 spores/mL was prepared from a purchased spore suspension. Test samples contained 1 mL of the spore solution, 1 mL water and 8 mL of our technology. The spore solution was exposed for 15 minutes to our technology, after exposure the samples were plated and incubated for four days at 36 ± 1 °C. Conclusion: Under the conditions of this experiment our technology was sporicidal against Bacillus subtilis spores. The reduction in spores was 6.5 log on average, thus completing the requirements of the applied test method. [Micromed Laboratories Inc., U.S.] Our technology does not kill spores by inactivation of some component of the spore’s germination apparatus, but by damaging the spore’s inner membrane such that our technology treated spores lyse rapidly upon spore germination. Our technology also appeared to inactivate at least one enzyme, CwlJ, located in the spore’s outer layers. Our technology killing of spores was not accompanied by the release of the spore’s large pool of dipicolinic acid (DPA). (Rose et al, 2006; Paul M et al, 2006). The preceding data is based upon testing done on the Microcyn® Technology platform and does not necessarily infer that similar data would be generated in testing on various Microcyn-based products or formulas under development. |
| Just sent you a pm...You know my dog had MRSA too.. Call me anytime to discuss treatment, to talk, to rant, whatever...we've been there...call me anytime...I am always home... Sending you healing prayers and sheepie hugs |
| Totally off the cuff idea, what about gamma globulin? do they use it in dogs? Another thought is to keep the antibiotics going longer. I've known instances where the antibiotics continues for 3-4 months... |
| Thank you for all of the replies. Unfortunately for Oscar, long-term antibiotic use comes with unintended consequences. The longer he is on an antibiotic, the harder it is on his digestive system, causing IBD, which we try really hard to avoid, as that means a higher dose of pred......which means he's more susceptible to infection, which means more antibiotics.....and the cycle continues. We've discovered that long term antibiotic use also kills off good bacteria that is trying to keep the pathogens in check, causing different cooties to flourish. In addition, for the cooties it doesn't kill, it creates resistance in bugs that would not have been resistant to that particular antibiotic before. It's my understanding that gamma globulin therapy is rarely used in dogs, and when it is, it is used mostly to treat a critical crisis of Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia that is not responding to other treatment. I would be hesitant to try this with Oscar, unless it was a treatment of last resort. Laurie and Oscar |
| Will he eat yogurt? That seems to preserve some of the good bacteria when on long term antibiotics-- just a thought |
| Thanks for the yogurt idea, but Oscar cannot have dairy products, neither cow, nor goat. (Which is so sad as Oscar's favorite thing in the world is imported feta - Greek of course. Anytime the hubby breaks out feta, Oscar will come flying out of a dead sleep and just droooooooooool.) Currently, I am looking into other probiotics and immune boosting supplements that help with inflammation in the gut. (I had to stop Oscar's last type of probiotics as they were actually giving him loose stool!) A new vet just started at Oscar's practice, who happens to be versed in alternative medicine. Looks like we will be doing a consultation in the New Year! In addition to all of the wonderful advice I've been receiving on this thread, I have also been PMed by two very kind souls on this forum who have offered other ideas and solutions, for which I am very grateful. You folks on here are the best!!!(And it looks as though the topical Mupirocin is working.  )Laurie and Oscar |
| I'm in the middle of peeling potatoes... Jim's or my quiet time to think. I got thinking about what a previous vet of ours said when we had BB in for digital x-rays last month. He mentioned he was able to end the drug resistant MRSA cycle topically by having the owner bathe the dog daily with a chlorhexidine product... I think he said it was for 2 months? I can't remember... we'll have to see him in a couple of weeks to repeat x-rays so I can ask again. Dr. Rosser, Bumble's dermatologist at MSU, has had me bathe Bumble 2x per week since February. Maybe a month before the chylothorax thing, we had gotten him down to 1x per week. We're back to 2x per week because I'm still trying to get him stable after that post-surgery staph infection... he's off antibiotics but he still has some sores on the inside of his ear flaps. Baths here take 1-2 hours each time depending on the length of his coat. I wet him down, lather him up. If there are any sores, I start soaping those areas first. Maybe not the right way to do this but I don't set the timer until I've gotten him completely soaped up. Then I let him set... he lies down in the tub and dozes and I go change his bedding, cover it with a quilt and get a heat regulated crate dryer set up ( https://www.ryanspet.com/double-k-chall ... BL560.html ). I usually have little time left so I do something else. After 10 minutes, I rinse him off, gently towel dry him and put him in front of the dryer for a while. I come back, brush him a bit and move the dryer so it dries him more evenly. When his body and head are almost dry, I put him on the grooming table and hand dry him the rest of the way. It just frees up a little of my time this way because his frequent baths are now part of our lives. This explains why I have to keep Bumble in a short coat. He is SO handsome in a longer coat!I know it can be difficult to find time and you'll probably want to stuff a bar of soap in my mouth for even asking this but I was wondering if more frequent bathing might help to keep Oscar's staph at bay. I can only base this on my experience with Bumble and we are not dealing with MRSA so I don't know if maybe the shampoo is too drying for Oscar, too potent to do it more often or if it might leave his skin more susceptible to infection. I've just found that more frequent bathing tends to work rather than using sprays, wipes, etc. (I use those too but in between the bathes when needed.) Also, have you used the DermPet TrizCHLOR 4 wipes or spray? It's a 4% chlorhexidine product. Just throwing what I do out there in case something might help your GORGEOUS boy... Laurie, he is so handsome. I know how scary it is making even the smallest of changes... whether it will bring that house of cards down and cause Oscar serious problems.I wish I could think of something that might help... Back to edit  I'm glad the topical appears to be working! Wishing dear Oscar a bright new year and hoping this new doctor will be blessed with insight on how to help him. Please keep us posted! |
| Jaci, thanks for the detailed reply. Your process with Bumble sounds remarkably similar to mine with Oscar, except that I dry him completely by hand. Oscar just falls asleep, so I have to wake him when it is time to flip him over and dry the other side. Oscar's skin definitely benefits from frequent bathing in the chlorhexidine shampoo. I was bathing him twice a week, and my vets thought it was beginning to irritate the lesions. They had me back off to once a week, so I don't keep washing off the Mupirocin. I am torn. Our dermatologist recommended using Malaseb pledgets daily, before one of the applications of Mupirocin, which I started this week. This current lesion seems to be resolving without antibiotics but we're going to give it another week before we decide.Also, Oscar does not like to be bathed, so his tummy gets a little riled up when we do it. The more frequent the baths, the more we risk getting his digestive system in an uproar. It just adds to the fun.  My little buddy is so high maintenance! Beautiful, but high maintenance! Thanks again for your suggestions. If we continue to struggle, I will definitely revisit the frequency of bathing and see if it gives us positive results. I don't know how you keep up.  I just have Oscar to contend with. You have a whole pack of trouble! A lovely pack at at that.I really appreciate all of your support. Laurie and Oscar |
| Today is our consultation with the new holistic vet who started recently at Oscar's practice. Hoping we can get a handle on some supplements to support Oscar's immune system, as well as his digestion. Wish us luck! Laurie and Oscar |
| Good luck at your appointment today!! Hoping this doctor will be gifted in his knowledge and ability to help Oscar. Please let us know how it goes! PS... I also sent you a note. |
| I hope you got some good help and fresh perspectives! |
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