Aggression
We have rescued dogs before and know how important it is to establish Alpha. From the moment we have had Stayley, she has never been allowed on the furniture, and she only eats 2 times a day, when we put her bowl out ( she does not get to free eat). No human food has ever been given to her and she sees us eat before she does. We have also put her in a crate to sleep since we had her at 2 months. I never let her beat me up to the top of the stairs and we are always the first ones in and out of a room before she comes in and leaves ( sometimes I have to make her stay 10 times before she gets it).. Around 4 months old, she became very food aggressive and crate aggressive. She will gladly go in her crate, but as soon as we close the door on her all H E double hockey sticks break loose. We have gone through 3 trainers with her. She went to an intense bootcamp for two weeks. THe bootcampt tactics worked for a bit , but then she just doesn't care anymore and goes back to her old ways. We have to put her in a crate when we leave the house because she has chewed up our house when we are gone if we dont put her in a crate. This past Friday I picked her up from Daycare and she bit my hand out of no where ( did I mention that this is the third time she bit me??) this also drew blood. We called the bootcamp trainer and he took her again for another 2 week intense bootcamp. He may decide to train us on a shock collar with her ( however this is the LAST resort). I want to keep this dog. WE are the type of family that rescues dogs, not give them up, but I am frightened by her. We are a couple in our mid thirties and early forties and are planning on having a child soon. I worry that she will harm my child or someone elses. I dont want to put her down, and I dont want to send her to a shelter. I am sure a rescue will not take her because she bites. I just feel so heartbroken, not too sure if any of you can shed some light on this. perhaps i just need a place to talk and let this all out. If anyone has any suggestions, I would really appreciate it! |
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| Hi, glad you found us too! I do have to say the rescue you got her from handed you a load of, pardon me, horse hookie. She wasn't bred by a show breeder and dumped because she has two different colored eyes - I presume one blue and one brown, that's called wall-eyed and is perfectly acceptable per the standard, and even if it wasn't, she could still have been sold to a pet home - "show" breeders know full well not every puppy in a litter is going to be show quality and the rest are habitually sold as pets, no one breeds strictly for "show dogs", just ain't possible  so something is not right there, but never mind. You have a puppy with a by all accounts rather serious temperament problem. You seem to be addressing it very sensibly. The unprovoked biting that draws blood really concersn me. Please contact the rescue and ask them how she was raised. She sounds like she may have been seperated from mom and litter mates much too young and never learned proper bite inhibition, among other things. It's not an easy thing to instill in an older dog, even an older puppy, but perhaps with a really good behaviorist...? Be careful, please. I hope she's not around children?  Kristine |
| The "breeder" (& I use that term very loosely here) that turned her in to rescue due to the eye color obviously used that as an excuse. 1 blue & 1 brown eye are perfectly acceptable for the show ring. If the breeder actually showed dogs or read the standard he'd have known that. And he could have sold her as a pet/companion also. I'd love to have a litter that I could find show homes for each one. They just aren't out there. I have to say there are other reasons she was turned over to rescue.......like maybe she is an alpha bitch & he didn't want to take a chance on someone sueing him on down the line because they didn't know how to handle an alpha bitch & it was biting them or their kids. Not to say all alpha bitches are biters....just using this as an example. Since you are planning on having children in the future, my suggestion is not one you are going to want to hear, but one that I feel is best for everyone including the dog. Call one of the approved Old English Sheepdog Rescues in your area & explain to them the siutation. If you have already gone thru several personal trainers etc., it is going to be a situation where the dog needs to be placed in a home that has lots of experience with this type of behavior. An OES Rescue will foster the dog for awhile & assess the dog & then find the perfect home for the dog. |
| Welcome to this wonderful forum..I am sorry you are having problems with your furkid~ I am not an expert by any stretch, but I have a few questions. You say you had trainers come into your house for private lessons. Have you ever had a behavourist evaluate her? Has she ever been to regular obedience classes with other dogs? Will the rescue help you to get to the root of her issues? I sounds like you are really trying to get on top of this. And IMO you are doing everything right in your effort to establish you as Alpha. I personally an not a fan of bootcamps just because I feel the dog views the instructor as alpha, but you are not there forming a bond with her. YOU are not involved with the training, so why should she listen to you when she comes home???? Shock collars have been discussed in depth here and most are not in favor of this type of training, but again, you know your dog, so you have the best feelings on whether it will work or not. The food issue ::: Have you tried to feed her by hand??? It may work as they will not BITE the hands that FEED them..... The crate issue makes sense to me since that is THEIR 'cave', but again, she should be trusting you enough to let you go into the crate if you want and she should be ok with it. If she is going to day care, she must be behaving or she wouldn't be allowed to go. So you know she is a good girl when she is not home..but biting you??? Maybe she is just excited to see you??? They ARE herding dogs and use their mouth to nip at the heels of the sheep...this may be what she is trying to do ...herd you??? That may be part of the problem? UTI??? Pain inAre you sure she has no medical problems her hips , joints??? I think that would be my first step~~~ a vet exam to make sure she is healthy. Possibly meds to calm her down so you can begin training her.. Then I would find a behaviourist to come into your house to do an evaluation and they will also give you ways to help her get through this..... (a little history about my experience..Coz is my bearded Collie who was a very poorly bred dog. As soon as we took him home, he had fear issues, so bad that I was afraid that my grandkids would be at risk when they came over..I had a behaviourist evalute my boy and he suggested meds to chill him out. Coz went on a type of antianxity meds for a couple of years till he matured. He is 8 years old and although he still has tiny fear issues, he is finally enjoying life.) |
| No children in the home. But my hubby and I are planning to start having a family soon , which is why I am scared. She is fabulous on a leash ( because we worked with her) and she gets along well with people and other dogs. I can even handle her stubborness but the aggression stuff has to go. I just worry that I can never be able to trust her. That is my biggest fear. Being almost a year I know she is still a teenager and I hope she just will eventually learn that this is not acceptable behavior... We got the name of the bootcamp trainer from the OES rescue in our area. But I also worry that we will not have the time to give to her training that she needs. I think training her is a full time job. I am not too sure if we have the time to do so, which is why I worry about giving her up. She has so much potential and is a beautiful dog, but she needs a TON of work...and I do not want to put her down or give her up, which is what I am afraid someone will do. They will see all the work she needs and just give up..I am at a loss.. We have decided to give the 2nd bootcamp one more try and hopefully the food and crate issues wll be no more, but it is in the back of my head that she will bite again which is what I am worried about. WE are just really heartbroken because of all of this.. it makes me so sad.. Thanks again for your support! Erin |
| WOW! Thanks so much for all of the responses! I am in nursing school and I have finals this week so I need to get cracking!! To answer your questions: 1) we have had the vet do a full check up on her, no issues 2) No behaviorist yet, but I am not too sure how they can help me. WHat is the difference between them and a trainer? The trainer we used was recommended by the local OES rescue, she sends dogs who are ready to be put down because of aggression to him and they end up being gentile giants. The first round did not work so much, so hopefully this one will...He thinks she has so much potential too and said that she is better than a lot of OES's that he has worked with. But when she comes home it is going to take a TON of work, like no affection or praise for MONTHS.. Its basically going to be a full time job and I worry that if we give her to rescue, people will not be willing to give that to her and just put her down. we are also very good with making sure she does not get anything for free.... Thanks again! Erin |
| Are you actually sending her away for the bootcamp training? Are you involved with the training at that point? I'm wondering if you'd have more success with having a behaviorist actually come into your home so he/she could watch how you interact with the dog and perhaps pick up on something? I know my dogs act completely different at home than they do when they're at other places. One of my dogs is the most annoying dog ever at home but when he stays elsewhere, they can't stop telling me what a pleasure he was to have around and how perfectly behaved he was. That is definitely not the dog I have at home! What everyone has told you is right, too. The line that you got from the rescue about the breeder and the eyes is a total load. It concerns me that a reputable rescue would even tell you something like that because they should know better. It's something that anyone can easily look up and find out is absolutely acceptable. It makes me wonder if they knew something else about the dog but didn't reveal it. Maybe there's something about the parents' temperament? I suppose none of that matters at this point on your end but I always wonder what the real stories are. Where are you located? Perhaps someone from the forum can help recommend a behaviorist in your area if it's something that you might want to try. |
| We got Staley at 2 months old. We were her only home. Is it possible to see aggressive behavior in a pup that young?? She was so sweet the first two months we had her. I am located in Illinois... the rescue we got her from was Rescue To Home. Rescue to Home stated she came from a Breeder in Missouri by the name of Amos Schmitz ( I know its Amos S.. we looked all over on line and this is what we could find)... are any of you familar with him? We thought about calling him,but we figured what was the point, considering she is with us now and there is nothing we can do to change the situation then just work with our dog... Worry about how much a behaviorist costs, we have spent almost 3 grand on training with this dog, and I am in school and my husband was out of work for quite some time. He has a new job now though...and I graduate in May... Thanks again |
madamsheepie wrote: The first round did not work so much, so hopefully this one will...He thinks she has so much potential too and said that she is better than a lot of OES's that he has worked with. But when she comes home it is going to take a TON of work, like no affection or praise for MONTHS.. we are also very good with making sure she does not get anything for free.... Thanks again! Erin After reading all your questions, everyones responces, and your answers. I'm starting to think that you may have caused your dogs behavior because it sounds like you have NO idea what you are doing. Really giving a dog no affection or praise for months during training? seriously? Have you ever trained a dog before? You do know praise tells a dog that they are doing good and they generally strive to please you? I really do think you caused this issue in your dog. Not saying anything against you as an owner but from my experiance its generally owners lack of experiance that causes the agression. (even if they've owned a dog before) Very few dogs have I met that actually were truely aggressive, two had a brain tumor, one was my dog and it definitly was genetic (her mom was put down for attacking ppl). All the other dog were aggressive because of owners ignorance, purposfully or accidently training their dog to be that way. |
| Umm yes I have trained dogs before. All of our dogs have been from rescue, all have had separation anxiety.. and we gave them all of the love and affection in the world. Basically the only way we get any respect from our current dog is to be very very alpha with her. This is what the trainer ( who was recommended by the OES rescue may I add) stated we need to do to stop the aggression. He stated no affection for a long time.. If we give her an inch at all she acts aggressive. So NO I DID NOT CAUSE THIS IN MY DOG! The trainer said that we have to be strict with her in order to get her in line.. I cannot believe you would judge me on something you have no clue you have not lived in my home for the past 10 months to see how we take care of our dog. We want to be at the point where we can cuddle with her, we want to be able to pet her on her head and rub behind her ears, but she has bit me in the face when I pet her and sometimes shows her teeth.. I hope you never have to deal with an aggressive dog, because its truly a terrible situation to be afraid that your dog is going to seriously harm someone. I love this dog, I have spent almost 3,000 dollars to try to fix this situation, which is money I do not have but my husband and I refuse to give up on this dog because if she was in any other home she would have been given up or euthanized. Instead of judging me , you should know that I am a very responsible dog owner and refuse to give up on this dog.. |
 people. Sometimes when you ask for help & suggestions, you are going to hear something you don't want to hear. Of course none of us has lived with this dog or seen how your family is with her so all we are doing is trying to give you helpful suggestions & sometimes that means looking at the problem from all different angles. And please remember something. Being a reponsible dog owner also means being able to tell when all routes have been exhausted & sometimes you just can't fix things...whether it be physical or behavioral or temperment. I am saying this not only from a breeder's standpoint but also from an owner's standpoint. I truely hope you find a solution you can live with. |
| I am open to all suggestions, but please don't tell me I caused this in my dog.. that is hurtful.. considering we are trying everything we can. This is the last thing we can do for our dog. It is very heartbreaking. We lost our Wheaten a year and a half ago and I feel like I am loosing a dog all over again. I have seen how hard it is for dogs to be given up, it is awful on the dog and I dont want to do that to Staley. We truly love her. That being said, that is why we are exhausting every option with her, if this does not work this time around, we will give her to rescue. I just hope someone will take her.. I truly appreciate everyone's thoughts, but please do not tell me that I am a bad dog owner. You need consistency and love to train a dog and that is what we have been trying to do for the past 10 months. |
madamsheepie wrote: Umm yes I have trained dogs before. All of our dogs have been from rescue, all have had separation anxiety.. and we gave them all of the love and affection in the world. Basically the only way we get any respect from our current dog is to be very very alpha with her. This is what the trainer ( who was recommended by the OES rescue may I add) stated we need to do to stop the aggression. He stated no affection for a long time.. If we give her an inch at all she acts aggressive. So NO I DID NOT CAUSE THIS IN MY DOG! The trainer said that we have to be strict with her in order to get her in line.. I cannot believe you would judge me on something you have no clue you have not lived in my home for the past 10 months to see how we take care of our dog. We want to be at the point where we can cuddle with her, we want to be able to pet her on her head and rub behind her ears, but she has bit me in the face when I pet her and sometimes shows her teeth.. I hope you never have to deal with an aggressive dog, because its truly a terrible situation to be afraid that your dog is going to seriously harm someone. I love this dog, I have spent almost 3,000 dollars to try to fix this situation, which is money I do not have but my husband and I refuse to give up on this dog because if she was in any other home she would have been given up or euthanized. Instead of judging me , you should know that I am a very responsible dog owner and refuse to give up on this dog.. AnInnocentEvil wrote: After reading all your questions, everyones responces, and your answers. I'm starting to think that you may have caused your dogs behavior because it sounds like you have NO idea what you are doing. Really giving a dog no affection or praise for months during training? seriously? Have you ever trained a dog before? You do know praise tells a dog that they are doing good and they generally strive to please you? I really do think you caused this issue in your dog. Not saying anything against you as an owner but from my experiance its generally owners lack of experiance that causes the agression. (even if they've owned a dog before) Very few dogs have I met that actually were truely aggressive, two had a brain tumor, one was my dog and it definitly was genetic (her mom was put down for attacking ppl). All the other dog were aggressive because of owners ignorance, purposfully or accidently training their dog to be that way. Did you even read my post? Yes I have owned a truely aggressive dog before (you would have known that if you would have read my post) When you ask for advice, you don't always get the advice your looking for, it's not really constructive to try to pick and choose what advice is given. It's generally the advice you don't like that is the truest. (from personal experiance) No where in my post did I call you a bad dog owner. |
| saying owner ignorance, and stating I had NO clue certainly made me feel attacked. Perhaps you did not say I was a bad dog owner but it sure felt like it... With that being said, I truly feel as we are doing everything we can to fix this situation. We first trained our dog with treats and praise, and the aggression still persisted; as a matter of fact, it got even worse. So we went with another trainer, the obedience training worked very well with the second trainer, but the aggression still would not go away. This new trainer has dealt with aggressive OES's and states that because of the work we have done with her, she is better off than the ones he has worked with, which is why he thinks there is reasons for us to not give up on her. I just am wondering if I can ever trust her.. that is what I am really posting about, being able to trust a dog who was aggressive at one point, can they ever get better? |
| From my experiance, if it is just behavioral, something a dog accidently picked up, you will eventually be able to fully trust her, with training. If its a genetic aggression issue, absolutely not, never ever, not ever. The dog will never be able to be trusted. Never. I take the only knowing 3 truely aggressive dogs before, ive known 4. The last one was a dog that at the end of my friends street. The people that lived there had a meth lab. That dog ended up being put down after the pound conformed that it had prolonged exposure to the chemicals to make meth and meth itself. I'm not sure if that dog would have been aggressive if it wasn't in that enviorment. Theres really no way of telling. |
| First off, no one is judging you. You sound like you really care and want to do whatever needs to be done to help this dog. I can only tell you my experience. When Simon was a pup he had food aggression. The little snot would growl at me if we dared to walk past him when he was eating. I did the hand feeding and fixed that. I recommend it for your dog. I'm not sure what the crate aggression is so I can't comment on it. I do think dogs can be rehabilitated. It takes lots of work and often different trainers. I do think a behaviorist should be brought in. They do exactly what it sounds like, study the dog at home and how you handle the dog and can be really insightful and helpful. Welcome and keep us updated. |
| When she started off with the food aggression, I hand fed her, no aggression with the hand feeding. But all 3 of my trainers discourged it because they felt that this was something that I could not do forever. Her food aggression has gotten better, although not perfect, she just growls as us when she eats, but we stand right next to her when she eats. Before she would circle us and show her teeth, She also knows that she does not come to the bowl until we call her to it. With the first trainer we were told to take the food away a few times while she eats and if she growled when we attempted to take the bowl away we were to get in between the food and the dog. that worked for a bit until she hawlled off and bit me. Needless to say that was the last time we used that trainer.. it has just been an uphill battle with her...thanks for the advice.. we really cant afford a behavorist right now with the money we have already spent on her and I am in nursing school full time. So we are just going to do the best with what we have. |
| In a past response, you state that she will be going back to boot camp for the second or third time??? Please reconsider and spend the money on a behaviorist instead. Again, if the camp didn't work the first time, why do it again? A behaviorist will work with YOU and your hubby, in your home and since most of the problems are when she is home, doesn't it make sense to make sure the training is in that setting?? I know what you mean about the money. Coz, my DWI dog (Dog With Issues) has been my Staley. I bought her for $400.00 from an awful BYB and in the last 8 years, I have spent about 5K..between meds, her skin issues and her fear issues. But, like you, I will never give up on him!!! And he is doing very well~~~finally~~~ Good luck and update us please... ( and we love to see pics of your girl!!!) |
| Just my opinion and I don't know your dog but... I wonder if you're possibly dealing with a rising stress level and a lack of trust. Quote: With the first trainer we were told to take the food away a few times while she eats and if she growled when we attempted to take the bowl away we were to get in between the food and the dog. that worked for a bit until she hawlled off and bit me I'm of the opinion that dogs deserve to eat in peace. I believe when a dog's food dish is set down, a couple of quick pats are fine but the dog should be left alone. I think when food is given, then taken away, given again, taken away, etc. it's viewed as teasing and it only serves to weaken the bond/trust. So the next time you go to take it away, the dog is remembering the game you played previously that wasn't any fun. I would definitely work up to being able to touch the dish but I'd do so by tossing good treats in her direction with the hope that over time I'd eventually be able to put good things directly in her dish. Trying hard all the while not to elicit any negative reaction from the dog... backing off if it happens. Being observant of body posture... learning to read the dog. Food is a #1 thing to dogs and being able to do this in my opinion is all about trust. I've taken crates down because dogs have coveted them. I have one dog that did and she now sleeps out of the way beside our bed during he day and in the kitchen on a Kuranda bed at night. She's a great little 40 pound dog that's just a bit quirky. I never pet her when she's lying down. She's never bitten me, never even tried, but she does give a warning growl so I no longer even go there. In my situation, I don't need to. If I want to pet her or move her and she's lying down, I call her to me. That's my work around with her. I see absolutely nothing wrong with bribing a dog to do what I want him/her to do. Nothing. The dog is happy and I'm happy... zero stress to either of us. Still, a dog that is demonstrating aggression is not a dog I would ever trust 100% around children. Hoping you'll be able to work through this. |
| Of course you have your dog's best intentions at heart. If you didn't, you wouldn't be making training efforts and reaching out to people on forums for advice. You're not a bad dog owner and I'm sorry that anyone made you feel that way. There are definitely more diplomatic ways to get across that he or she disagreed with your training methods but it also doesn't mean you're at fault for the original problem, either. That being said, I agree with Val above. If you've tried one method with limited success, it may be wise to give something else a try and put your money and effort into something new. I definitely understand that you don't want to just keep hemorrhaging money. I'm also not a big fan of the send-away boot camps but that's not to say that a lot of dogs don't come back better for their time there, depending on what the issues were. However, and you know this, not ALL dogs will. Different dogs respond to different types of training and it could be that, despite your and your trainer's efforts, those methods just aren't clicking for your dog so no amount of repetition will give you new results. If the problems are centered around Staley's behavior in the home and around you, it could be a good idea to try to bring the training to where you need it-- in the home. Good luck in no matter what you choose, though. Quote: I'm of the opinion that dogs deserve to eat in peace. I believe when a dog's food dish is set down, a couple of quick pats are fine but the dog should be left alone. I think when food is given, then taken away, given again, taken away, etc. it's viewed as teasing and it only serves to weaken the bond/trust. So the next time you go to take it away, the dog is remembering the game you played previously that wasn't any fun. That was my thought exactly, too, Jaci. |
| Very good post Jaci. Lots of good advice has been given. Hopefully a solution will be found. |
| Thank you for the excellent advice... I really appreciate it. I haven't tried to take Staley's food from her since she bit me at 5 months old ( She just turned a year). We tried leaving her alone to eat for a bit and she decided to come away from her bowl and up to me and my husband ( we were sitting on the couch) and growled and showed her teeth. The new thing is that we stand right next to her. She still growls, but does not show teeth or circle us. To me this is a huge improvement... The trainer will come to our house a few times to work with us, he is doing some different things. Ultimately I agree with just about all of you on the board, if we have exhausted everything and no improvement, the responsible thing is to send her to rescue. I just don't want her to be euthanized.. she has so much potential!! This is basically our last hope for her. Do you think medication will work? Perhaps its just her wiring... my first trainer said that her wiring could be off... |
| okay.... so here are my thoughts.... I LOVE dogs, but people and ESP. kids before pets. so... definitely a behaviorist.... they can figure out WHY the issues and deal with them instead of just training to DO something differently. It does sound like you know a good bit more than most dog owners, so it's probably even more frustrating that things don't seem to be working. I'm thinking its not you.... it's the dog. Having said that.... maybe give yourself a set amount of time to work with.... like until you become pregnant. Know what you will and won't accept from the dog at that point and be willing to follow through with contacting rescue at that point if the dog is not where you feel comfortable. It's a little scary to me that it's aggressive and protective, and that's before you bring a child into the house, Things could go really wrong.... I know great dogs that went loopy when their parents had their first human child. I know the more invested and more time I spend with a dog, the harder it is to admit defeat. I'd sit down with pencil and paper. Write the good, bad, and ugly out and look at it as if it wasn't your dog. What would you tell someone else in your situation to do?  lots to think about. hope you get answers... best of luck! |
| Medication might be an option to work with and keep the training up till you can modify her behaviour. Unfortunately if it is in her as an hereditry component, yes years ago there were OES born with temperament issues and been addressed by reputable breeders and also included in part of the standard on "Temperament". If it is the personality she was born with then you are in for a tough time, more worrying is bringing a baby into the house with an un-predictable personality in her. Never to be trusted unfortunately around young kids or babies or in fact any young people. Agree with Jaci, even put her away from you guys with her food and leave her to it, bowl taken up well after you let her out of a specified eating area. Dog boot camps you really dont know what goes on unless you are there with them, someone coming to your home to see how she is in her enviroment and advice on modifying that is the way to go. With the crate, I would not have her in that as your having problems there, get a baby gate and either have her confined to a bathroom, a room, a laundry or where ever she cant get into mischief while you are not there, pop her water bowl in there, a few treats, a kong stuffed with stuff and a toy if she likes toys while you are out. No fuss on putting her away while you go and no fuss on your return when you let her out till later on. Make an area rather then the crate "Her Place" and a joy for her to go to when needed. Hard situation, would also say who ever bred her is not a reputable breeder to say dog surrendered because of one blue and one brown eye (Wall) is not showable is a joke, walls are just as common in the breed as two browns and plenty in the showring with walls. Another thing, whatever decision you take, know we all feel for you and admire your dedication to her, I would even though she has been checked from your vet as having no health issues, take her and get her eyes tested properly, to see and make sure that is not a problem, hearing done by BAER testing, they can be lateral and bi-lateral in deafness and also she seems to bite you when trying to pat the head area, so make doubly sure no ear infections, rule those things out 100% firstly before making a decision as to wether you continue on or surrender her to a recognised OES rescue breed specific group, and there is a lot on here in rescue that can help put you in touch with the correct people if you go down that track. A normal vet cant assume the eyes and hearing are normal. If not temperament inherited, might explain the behaviour a bit more. Feel for you enormously and yes if this cant be modified or corrected in what she is displaying then you do really need to think about surrendering her to an appropriate OES Breed rescue before bringing a baby home or around kids full stop. Best wishes, not your fault if it is ingrained in her, can be hard to resolve and not knowing the full history as to how mum or dad were, you are behind the eight ball as they say with the unknown. |
| I see you have put tons of work into trying to help your baby be the best she can and I commend you for that, it is tough alot of times(most times) Has anybody checked her hearing? If she is deaf the methods of training would be addng to her confusion and aggression.. Of course not by her being walleyed but, she is not responding to conventional training, so to speak... Some of the things you are referring to reminds me of my first deaf dog Kissy She was the sweetest wonderful dog but at the vets office(where I worked) somebody opened her crate startled her and got bit. Do you think this is a possibility? Deafness is not an awful thing in a dog...I would look into it. It is sometimes very hard to tell iff they are because, they are so resposnsive. Please, let me know if you have any questions! You can email me at carolinasoes@gmail.com |
| Just an update.. Staley is doing perfect at the trainers (of course she is..she is perfect with everyone but when she as home ... Forget about it!) dog trainer is bringing her back Saturday. We are going to do home training with her with this trainer. I want to see what he does that gets her in line .. Perhaps it's our body language.. Will also get her hearing checked too.. Will keep you all posted! Thanks for all of the advice and support.. |
| Have you had her eyes checked? Possibly for juvenile cataracts? This could make her snap when movement is near as they can not see things as sharply. Sort of like shadows moving around them. They wouldn't necessarily be bumping or running into things when moving but periferal movement would catch them off guard. You would need to go to a vet that is an opthomologist for this. Aa regular vet can steer you in the right direction but probably does not have the equipment nor training to diagnose this problem. |
| Sounds to me like this dog came from a puppy mill Maybe the rescue knew maybe they did not Sometimes bad traits are bred into dogs under these circumstances , as everyone said wall eye is completely normal in the breed standard I do not breed nor show but I di rescue. If the things you have tried have not worked then change it a bit. You have gotten some good advice here and I can see you are trying to save this dog. Many would have given up long ago. One thing that I want to state is some dogs are just not wired right (I rescue GSD and OES mostly) I had one OES that bit the owner bit the adopter and tried to bite me 3 times I took him to a trainer and he bit her unprovoked. He had some other issues too. In good conscious I could not place this dog. Your dog would be most likely dangerous around children. I would get in contact with your local OES rescue and let them help too. I hope these issues can be resolved . I would be very careful. |
| As Kathy and Marilyn both mentioned, losses or lowered senses in vision or hearing can result in a startle reflex. I'm glad the trainer is coming in to help you train her.  Building respect for you along with trust won't happen if someone else is handling her... if there's any hope of getting past this, you need to be the one doing it. I just don't believe that trust/respect easily transfer from one handler to another... it's something learned/earned. We can't realistically expect things to change if we aren't there working through the problems. One other thing that you can do if you are ever able to handle her food dish safely with her present... When I pick up a food dish and a dog is standing there or still licking the dish, I extend it to the dog so they can continue to lick it clean for a bit if they want. I see it as a trust/respect thing... not sure if the dog sees it this way but I'm trying to convey that I'm not taking something away from them that they can't or haven't already finished. And only allow humane training. Since she's shown human aggression, I would never use any electric shock devices on her. Please keep us posted on how you all are doing. |
| I apologize if I'm overlapping, but I didn't have time to read all the posts, just wanted to share my story and advice. My dog Walter, who is 8 now, had similar issues and they were REALLY bad from about 8 months to 2 years old. He has since calmed down a lot, but he is not trustworthy around children, still bites me sometimes, and literally cannot be out in public (he walks in the neighborhood and that's it). Having an aggressive dog is an immense commitment, and in many ways a burden. I wouldn't trade my experience with Walter for the world, but I understand that it is not for everyone. We worked with police dog trainers and sent him to bootcamp too. When I tried to use their dominance tactics at home, I got bit very badly. From then on we only did positive reinforcement, and it is the only way to this day I am able to control him. A veterinary behaviorist is different than a "Behaviorist" and a "certified trainer" because they require certifications that the others do not. They are able to prescribe medications, and made judgments on behavior based on their veterinary trainer. In Illinois there are very few veterinary behaviorists, but when my dog rescue gets dogs with unpredictable aggression we always shell out the big bucks to get a professional opinion from one. I don't recommend a shock collar, and it scares me to think of what her reactions would be... but I also know that every dog is different and responds to different training methods differently. Good luck, I hope very much that you are successful. |
| Oh I meant to ask you guys about getting her one of those weighted shirts.. Maybe she needs something that makes her feel like she's working.. Have any of you used one ? |
| Like a backpack? I haven't used one, but I have heard fabulous success stories of dogs that have started using them on walks to help with leash reactivity issues. |
| I have to say I am no expert but I do watch a lot of Victoria Stillwell and she is a big advocate of hand feeding them if they are food aggressive. She was in our area recently for a seminar but I couldn't make it. Although you can't expect to hand feed forever, there is no reason that they can't work for their food. I always make Bella "wait" before I allow her to eat. It may only be a few seconds but other times I make her wait 15 seconds. She knows that if her butt comes off that floor before I say OK I take the food back up and try again. It not only reinforces that I am in control but the wait command is great for agility and herding. The more I make Bella work the happier she is, she is more tired and content to know that she can come to me when things get a little scary like lighting. You didn't mention if your pup is in any other kind of training ie obedience, agility etc. The discipline that they learn with those activities would help to reinforce that you are in charge. |
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