National Dog Show Today
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| Elvis looked so great! I paused, rewound (thanks to OnDemand) and made all my house guests come and re-watch him with me!!! |
| One thing that I don't really understand is why, in dog shows, they make the sheepies eyes impossible to see. Sheepdog eyes are one of my favourite things in the world and I wonder if sheepies are at a disadvantage because the personality that shines through those eyes is hidden. Show people enlighten me! |
Mady wrote: One thing that I don't really understand is why, in dog shows, they make the sheepies eyes impossible to see. Sheepdog eyes are one of my favourite things in the world and I wonder if sheepies are at a disadvantage because the personality that shines through those eyes is hidden. Show people enlighten me! Believe me....they let their personalities shine thru in a zillion other ways in the show ring. And that is generally to the awe-struck embarrassment of the handler wondering just who in the heck is on the other end of the lead  . Nope, 1 eye, the right one, teased just enough so they can see me & what I am doing is all they need to see. If they could see everything going on around them I'd hate to see what they'd try to do in the ring |
Ashley wrote: Watched the national Dog Show today as I always do on Thanksgiving after the parade...Jere Mader and Elvis came in 4th for the Herding Group I watched also. It is a Thanksgiving tradition and my dh knows if he wants to watch something else (football) then be better find a different tv  Was so great to see Jere and Elvis, and to know that Millie and I were in the ring with them just two months ago  Good thing I didn't know who they were....it was our first time in the ring and I would have been scared stiff. They looked amazing!!! I believe Elvis came in third in the Herding Group behind the Australian Shepard and the German Shepard. I can't remember who took fourth, I'll have to watch it again. Thank goodness I have it recorded. |
 I watched it too! I know I am completely hooked and in love because...I have to admit...it is the first time I sat and watched a whole dog show  . I guess I never had a "reason", and I watched AND recorded it! Even funnier, I put Pru in my lap and we watched Elvis together.I also wondered about why their eyes were covered. And...I felt better knowing that Elvis' beard had a slight brown discoloration, so I won't stress as much about Pru's cute lil brown beard  . I also laughed at myself because I heard the announcers say to each other..."and it's true they can see through all that hair"...other announcer..."yes, they can, it's a near sighted, far sighted type thing". I was like "huh?" So, now I have to ask, of course - that's not true, right? In my reading here and in the books, isn't it true that they cannot truly "see" through all that hair well? Isn't that the reason most people topknot on a daily basis (not for Shows, I understand, but a normal day)? AND - to show more of my new addiction I also watched a documentary on Netflix about stars and their dogs. It was so good! Sure enough, 1/2 way through, their was the cutest sheepie. The story was awesome too! I am sure I am late to this - so forgive me if you guys have already seen this and it's old news - but the actress that played Pinkie on Grease (DeeDee ?) has an OES that really took to her autistic son and helped him come out of his shell significantly. I loved the bond they have and the whole story...it tugged at my heart strings. Hope everyone in the States had a wonderful Thanksgiving!! |
ChSheepdogs wrote: ...Believe me....they let their personalities shine thru in a zillion other ways in the show ring. And that is generally to the awe-struck embarrassment of the handler... Get I get an Amen?! Anyone know if there will be a rebroadcast and when? Vance |
| vance, watch at your convenience.  amen. http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/33929567/ |
| We watched most of it, by chance, just before the herding group, the NBC commentator mentioned that they weren't able to show all the dogs of course (in fact, they really can only show 3-4 in a group of 12?) and I was saying "better show the sheepdog!!!!", I was very happy when they did. The Polish Lowland Sheepdog is also a big cutie. Mady felt Elvis should have come in first in group, she's especially tired of Aussies trying to claim all the glory (flashback to our herding trial), I concur! I knew the terrier would win BIS, I told Kim he would win as soon as they all paraded out, terriers seem to win these big dog shows most of the time (hey I checked, wikipedia lists terrier group as most successful group at Westminster, 45 BIS out of 103 shows). Why are terriers so successful as a group? |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Believe me....they let their personalities shine thru in a zillion other ways in the show ring. And that is generally to the awe-struck embarrassment of the handler wondering just who in the heck is on the other end of the lead . Nope, 1 eye, the right one, teased just enough so they can see me & what I am doing is all they need to see. If they could see everything going on around them I'd hate to see what they'd try to do in the ring Been there done that!!! In our national specialty in I think it was 2005, Virgil and I were awaiting our turn to be judged and he was in a pretty good and animated mood so out of nowhere he decides he wanted to do a "forced woogey". Well what Virgil wants, Virgil generally gets and when he decides "out of the blue" it is time for a forced woogey and you are not ready then just consider yourself lucky to just remain on your feet. Thanks Virgil! Fortunately the judge didn't see and I had enough time to refluff his coat into shape before it was our turn to be judged. It caused something of a stir amongst the spectators ringside who saw it though and poor Michele almost broke her chin as it hit the floor in amazement that Virgil would do that in the ring. No, don't let them see more than they have to in the ring! And even consider cotton balls in their ears - did that too with one of our family Afghans when I was a teenager showing her! Thanks and Cheers Carl |
Baba wrote: I knew the terrier would win BIS, I told Kim he would win as soon as they all paraded out, terriers seem to win these big dog shows most of the time (hey I checked, wikipedia lists terrier group as most successful group at Westminster, 45 BIS out of 103 shows). Why are terriers so successful as a group? Yes a very unreasonable and blatant preference for terrierists! I've posted that complaint before. I guess the terrier world does a much better job of promoting itself than do the other groups beause I do not believe that terriers are that much closer to their breed standard on average than are breeds of other groups. It has to be a statistical impossiblity so some kind of bias has to be involved!  |
Baba wrote: I knew the terrier would win BIS, I told Kim he would win as soon as they all paraded out, terriers seem to win these big dog shows most of the time (hey I checked, wikipedia lists terrier group as most successful group at Westminster, 45 BIS out of 103 shows). Why are terriers so successful as a group? No idea, it doesn't seem fair.  After reviewing the Westminster list myself I noticed that an OES hasn't won since the 70's! Then I looked up his picture and now I'm wondering why in the heck did we go from grooming our dogs like this:  to this:  |
| I admit, I'm not a big fan of the giant puffball head look of today. Doesn't look "sheepie" to me. |
Millielover wrote: Baba wrote: I knew the terrier would win BIS, I told Kim he would win as soon as they all paraded out, terriers seem to win these big dog shows most of the time (hey I checked, wikipedia lists terrier group as most successful group at Westminster, 45 BIS out of 103 shows). Why are terriers so successful as a group? No idea, it doesn't seem fair. After reviewing the Westminster list myself I noticed that an OES hasn't won since the 70's! Then I looked up his picture and now I'm wondering why in the heck did we go from grooming our dogs like this:to this: Ahh Dudley. Met him a few times as a teenager, lucky me Note that he is only the second, and to date last, Bobtail to win Westminster and that was back when Bobtails were still in the working group and it was especially hard to get out of group to even have a whiff of BIS. Now with the Herding Group being about half the number of breeds that the Working Group used to be we are getting a few more chances at BIS but as of yet no more successes. I think that Jerry Marder has been to BIS competition twice in the last 15 years or so and didn't the Bugaboo dog "Colton" get the group win sending him to BIS competition about 6 or 7 years ago? Bit by bit judges began to reward dogs that demonstrated first one extreme feature, then another, then yet more. Since dogs presented in that way were winning then other exhibitors and eventually breeders followed suit. Unfortunately there is a lot of money involved in dog showing - both in terms of expenses to enter and travel to them, breeding your line for entry, etc. and also in terms of the potential to recoup some of those expenses in sales. Remember a breeders advertsing is in large part their show results so to a great extent you have to present what wins. Ask our own Ali about that. She bought a couple of very nice British-bred Bobtails some years ago and tried to campaign them in a more natural presentation and got nowhere. Once they were trimmed up to look like the rest they quickly finished their championships. The dogs' conformation did not change, just their coat presentation. Sometimes, maybe a lot of the time, it is just not worth "p*(%ing in to the wind" even if you are right. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| Well a good thing about the silly puffball, is that it is really transient. These gorgeous sheepies probably revert to a more natural look within 5 minutes of leaving the ring! |
| http://www.oes.org/html/sihuge.html |
I grew up with the wired fox terriers Thay indeed are great little dogs and of course I have a great love for the german shepherd dog!! That said I love an old english sheepdog just groomed nicely with feet trimed up All the teasing and fluff are not what a sheepdog is about (don't shoot me I don't have show dogs  ) I thought the natural coat was not to be touched or something like that?? The sheepdogs are the most show stopping dog around no matter how they are groomed. |
| Back in 1980 when I was showing my first OES Sampson, that was more the norm and the puff ball look was just starting. I hated then and still do. I don't know how far I'll get because of this, but I'm going to try to buck the system and do my best to revert back to that look as much as I can for many reasons. First of all, I'm not that good with the sculpting of the head and all over body. I do pretty well with the rear and the feet but I'm afraid I'll chop off too much elsewhere. But my biggest complaint is that these dogs should look like sheepdogs not Giant Bichons! I will do some of the trimming but I'm not going to do the extreme sculpting and I'm sure we will suffer for that decision on my part but I'm okay with that. I've read the many judge interviews in The Old English Times and they all make comments about the excessive sculpting nowadays. So we'll see what happens. I doubt the old pros will change at this point so I guess I'll send my challenge out to the other newbies in the sport. Come on and join me to help get back to the look of more working dog rather than a poofy giant Bichon!   Cindy |
| Cindy - count me in. Read the Coat section of any of the published Breed Standards. Here is the OESCA's Standards page http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org/breed_info/breed_standard.php. Who is determining the meaning of the term 'artificial means' and how can that get changed to a more accurate meaning? Vance |
I've gone the other way. I hated the trimmed/poofed look when I started, especially since I couldn't trim or poof like that  I still can't trim like that, but now when I see an excessive pile of hair, I can't stand it. If you're actually WORKING your OES, the trimmed up coat we all love to hate works much better. The shorter, the better. Head boofed up - I regret that, but sorry, my dogs do stuff and expect to be able to see in the ring - whatever it takes. If you don't tease it up, you thin it out, both equally wrong, one more obviously so NO WORKING DOG SHOULD BE EXPECTED TO MOVE BLIND. That's ludicrous. (Though I totally sympathize with the trying to keep them under control <vbg> )Bottom-line? Neither look is natural in a working dog. Part of our problem is that we have selected for excessive coat. A true working OES would have that harsh coat sooo rarely seen in north america, at least, and becoming rare elsewhere as well, it seems, unfortunately, Here's a revelation: IT BREAKS. Easily. As you'd want it do on a working OES to keep it a little under control in between them being shaved down, and not dragging half way to the ground. We've also selected for excessive undercoat (and I have a coat factory, don't get me wrong) WRONG. I learned to groom on a friend's (finished) bitch whose pedigree was half (old stuff) European. She had virtually no hair - harsh outer coat that broke easily, minimal undercoat, comparatively speaking. THAT is as close to a working coat as I've seen. I could have taken that bitch herding and into the breed ring on the same day with minimal effort (OK, given decent weather ). How nice would that be?Still waiting for that shaved class. Seriously. Big piles of excessive hair in the ring, except in certain areas as noted by the breed standard, as offensive to me as the sculpting. More functional coats would be nice. Less hair achieved without the offensive excessive grooming. Just my two cents or whatever inflation allows. And congratulations to Jere. Who is very much against the teased up sunflower look from what I understand. She does a very nice compromise job, and I do believe Elvis can actually see. Kristine |
| I hear everyone on the "puffy" head look and I HATE it too! I met Jere and Elvis at this years westminister in NYC. They both looked amazing! However, I think its an out right joke that our OES breed, herding, bred to herd sheep, has to look so "made up" in the confirmation ring...Like one of thoe dogs will be herding sheep anytime soon  My breeder is probably rolling her eyes at me right now...sorry... |
"Giant Bichon" is exactly right. I love my fluffy beautiful Mady, but she is not a toy dog, she goes out there and tangles with sheep and gets them moving! I hate the puffball. I DO love the huge fluffy bum  and the wonderfully thick legs. My ideal sheepdog would be groomed like Elvis BUT with a great top-knot! (Which is how he is I'm sure, 90% of the time). |
4 my OES wrote: I doubt the old pros will change at this point so I guess I'll send my challenge out to the other newbies in the sport. Come on and join me to help get back to the look of more working dog rather than a poofy giant Bichon! Cindy Cindy-----I'm game!!! I agree that they do look like giant bichons and that really bothers me. When we show I poof as little as possible too. So far it's you, me and Vance. We should pick a small show, hopefully be the only three oes, and then they would have to pick an unpoofed winner!  |
Millielover wrote: 4 my OES wrote: I doubt the old pros will change at this point so I guess I'll send my challenge out to the other newbies in the sport. Come on and join me to help get back to the look of more working dog rather than a poofy giant Bichon! Cindy Cindy-----I'm game!!! I agree that they do look like giant bichons and that really bothers me. When we show I poof as little as possible too. So far it's you, me and Vance. We should pick a small show, hopefully be the only three oes, and then they would have to pick an unpoofed winner! You guys are rebels!! |
Millielover wrote: 4 my OES wrote: I doubt the old pros will change at this point so I guess I'll send my challenge out to the other newbies in the sport. Come on and join me to help get back to the look of more working dog rather than a poofy giant Bichon! Cindy Cindy-----I'm game!!! I agree that they do look like giant bichons and that really bothers me. When we show I poof as little as possible too. So far it's you, me and Vance. We should pick a small show, hopefully be the only three oes, and then they would have to pick an unpoofed winner! Ha! Good one Jennifer! I have to tease Teddy's hair a little between his eyes so he can see now. It would be nice if we could put a clip or tie it up like at home in the ring. Here is a photo of me showing Sampson Jan. 28th 1983. I had more poof than the dog!  |
Millielover wrote: So far it's you, me and Vance. We should pick a small show, hopefully be the only three oes, and then they would have to pick an unpoofed winner! Believe it or not most judges know how to judge the breed, and that means getting under the hair. Trimmed, poofed, or not, this is a breed you have to judge with your hands in no small degree. You do use your eyes when they're moving and all the flapping hair on an untrimmed dog can be distracting till you get used to it. But you can certainly show an OES trimmed only butt and feet as prescribed, and the more correct the coat, the easier it is. Sybil's coat - she has a harsh coat (but still too much undercoat), European sire - will "poof" out on its own with no teasing unless it gets too long, I suppose, but it's hard to grow length on her, because it breaks pretty easily. A soft coat wth any length at all on the other hand will tend to lie flat (puppy coat is by definition soft, so horrible to work with), perhaps buoyed a bit if the dog has enough undercoat, but it is what it is, trimmed or not, incorrect, and judges - for the most part smarter than we apparently give them credit for - do know the difference. How you get the hair out of their eyes is your business, but if you're not going to tease head coat, except on a young puppy (naturally shorter coat) you probably do need to learn to use thinning shears. I won't do that because I need to get their hair out of their eyes for agility, and it's easier to put them up in top knots if it's uniform in length. If your dog is the best dog out there, handled well, and the judge is actually judging dogs and not faces . unpoofed or not, it will win. So if you feel that strongly about it, by all means show them "natural". And if you want to show them natural you're better off selecting for proper coats, so that would be a good thing. But then you won't have the big piles of hair most likely. If you look at truly old pictures of the breed they were certainly not trimmed beyond the basics, but they had a fraction of the hair and you can actually imagine they could go out and do an honest day's work. They didn't, for the most part, but at least it seemed feasible I can see how to a newcomer, especially, it would be easy to get hung up on the hair. But do keep in mind that soundness is, or should be, of utmost importance. I wish people would get as worked up about that as they do scissors etc, because, honey, no amount of grooming - or not - is going to fake that, and a working dog is only as good as it is sound. Kristine |
| Jennifer, pick a show that's an equal driving distance for all three of us and it's on!!! Hell, we may get some other rebels to join in. Kim - it seems we may be rebels WITH a cause! And a clue... Vance |
Mad Dog wrote: Millielover wrote: So far it's you, me and Vance. We should pick a small show, hopefully be the only three oes, and then they would have to pick an unpoofed winner! Believe it or not most judges know how to judge the breed, and that means getting under the hair. Trimmed, poofed, or not, this is a breed you have to judge with your hands in no small degree. You do use your eyes when they're moving and all the flapping hair on an untrimmed dog can be distracting till you get used to it. But you can certainly show an OES trimmed only butt and feet as prescribed, and the more correct the coat, the easier it is. Sybil's coat - she has a harsh coat (but still too much undercoat), European sire - will "poof" out on its own with no teasing unless it gets too long, I suppose, but it's hard to grow length on her, because it breaks pretty easily. A soft coat wth any length at all on the other hand will tend to lie flat (puppy coat is by definition soft, so horrible to work with), perhaps buoyed a bit if the dog has enough undercoat, but it is what it is, trimmed or not, incorrect, and judges - for the most part smarter than we apparently give them credit for - do know the difference. How you get the hair out of their eyes is your business, but if you're not going to tease head coat, except on a young puppy (naturally shorter coat) you probably do need to learn to use thinning shears. I won't do that because I need to get their hair out of their eyes for agility, and it's easier to put them up in top knots if it's uniform in length. If your dog is the best dog out there, handled well, and the judge is actually judging dogs and not faces . unpoofed or not, it will win. So if you feel that strongly about it, by all means show them "natural". And if you want to show them natural you're better off selecting for proper coats, so that would be a good thing. But then you won't have the big piles of hair most likely. If you look at truly old pictures of the breed they were certainly not trimmed beyond the basics, but they had a fraction of the hair and you can actually imagine they could go out and do an honest day's work. They didn't, for the most part, but at least it seemed feasible I can see how to a newcomer, especially, it would be easy to get hung up on the hair. But do keep in mind that soundness is, or should be, of utmost importance. I wish people would get as worked up about that as they do scissors etc, because, honey, no amount of grooming - or not - is going to fake that, and a working dog is only as good as it is sound. Kristine Ditto And not because I tease. I do as little of that as possible. Head coat is the main area. And you are correct in the amount of hair old versus new. It's not the length we are talking about so much as the actual volume & quantity of hair on the newer generations. Think hair follicles per square inch. I have 1 boy with very correct coat. He takes forever to grow back in from a shave down to a full coat. Over a year for what I want. Mainly because the length is there but it doesn't look like it because it is so coarse it never, ever lays flat. The only thing I ever had to tease on him was his head so he could see out of his eyes. |
| I am finding this thread fascinating. If judges don't judge based on 'poof' but on correctly judging for the breed standard, why do people poof their dogs up? I have to confess something here. When David said he wanted an Old English Sheepdog more than two years ago, I, of course, started off my research with Google and I was really turned off of the breed by the pictures. I thought OES looked like silly, frou frou dogs and I wanted a 'real' dog. I did more research and determined that sheepies were real dogs, but those initial pictures were really a turn off. Why do the show people choose to show like that, unless they think that is what the judges want? Like David, though, I do like the poofy butts and the legs like pillars, I just also like seeing a bit of face when I look at a sheepie. I am looking forward to the next rebel dog show! |
| I can see how to a newcomer, especially, it would be easy to get hung up on the hair. But do keep in mind that soundness is, or should be, of utmost importance. I wish people would get as worked up about that as they do scissors etc, because, honey, no amount of grooming - or not - is going to fake that, and a working dog is only as good as it is sound. Kristine I totally agree with that Kristine. The judge should be able to feel that and watch the movement and look past the hair. Cindy |
| Guys, Take it one step further. Shave your dogs before showing. They'd still have to judge the dog itself (and not the fur), right? So the hair length SHOULD be irrelevant. Speaking of coats, Zeke's seemed to be different than the other sheepies at Sheepiepalooza. Zeke's seems to be a bit heavier or more course. And not the whole coat, but like each individual strand of fur. Plus his coat lays down more and is kinda wavy. When we got him, he was in a fuller coat and the hair on top of his head had a sharp part in it. I don't think it could ever get the full, poofy look that a lot of sheepies have. |
| Heh, fun idea, but I think coat is part of the standard, just not the specific teasing/grooming of it! |
Baba wrote: Heh, fun idea, but I think coat is part of the standard, just not the specific teasing/grooming of it! The texture is. Though it also dictates that you can't trim beyond X and Y, so it would take some kind of change, which could acknowledge their working origins, because surely no farmer spent 3 hours plus a week brushing a working dog, but shaved/cut them back them periodically. People have played with the notion of permitting them to be shown shaved (there would be certain guidelines, they couldn't be bald, there had to be enough coat to judge coat texture) I once, after four days of endless brushing, brushing, brushing, jokingly told a bunch of fellow OES exhibitors that I was going to circulate a petition to show the breed shaved (since it would take a standard change, I believe, and you really don't want to start messing with that, it truly was but an overtired joke) But in any event a dozen people offered to sign the imaginary petition on the spot That said, a friend judged the breed in Finland some years ago and apparently there they do have a shaved class (maybe just at their specialities?), and she loved judging it. She sent me pictures of her winners and, guess what? Even the shave jobs were "creative"! Guess it's human nature not to be able to resist adding our own touch  Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Baba wrote: Heh, fun idea, but I think coat is part of the standard, just not the specific teasing/grooming of it! The texture is. Though it also dictates that you can't trim beyond X and Y, so it would take some kind of change, which could acknowledge their working origins, because surely no farmer spent 3 hours plus a week brushing a working dog, but shaved/cut them back them periodically. People have played with the notion of permitting them to be shown shaved (there would be certain guidelines, they couldn't be bald, there had to be enough coat to judge coat texture) I once, after four days of endless brushing, brushing, brushing, jokingly told a bunch of fellow OES exhibitors that I was going to circulate a petition to show the breed shaved (since it would take a standard change, I believe, and you really don't want to start messing with that, it truly was but an overtired joke) But in any event a dozen people offered to sign the imaginary petition on the spot That said, a friend judged the breed in Finland some years ago and apparently there they do have a shaved class (maybe just at their specialities?), and she loved judging it. She sent me pictures of her winners and, guess what? Even the shave jobs were "creative"! Guess it's human nature not to be able to resist adding our own touch Kristine I guess the shaved class would be something to see! I myself, don't like the shaved look. A longer puppy cut is about as short as I care for. I love OES with coat, just not a Bichon head. I like the top knot to keep the hair out of the eyes not cut off at the eyes. Other than the carting\sledding that Dawn does with Chewie, there should be no reason I couldn't keep Teddy's coat long for other activities like agility or herding right? I would like to try both of these sports with him and even the carting when he's older. He is such an athlete and loves to run so I think it would be fun to give them a go.Cindy |
| I take too long to type and this is really long... Mark, the breed standard calls for a profuse coat. Here is the Coat section of the OESCA standards: Quote: Coat: Profuse, but not so excessive as to give the impression of the dog being overly fat, and of a good hard texture; not straight, but shaggy and free from curl. Quality and texture of coat to be considered above mere profuseness. Softness or flatness of coat to be considered a fault. The undercoat is a waterproof pile when not removed by grooming or season. Ears coated moderately. The whole skull well covered with hair. The neck well coated with hair. The forelegs well coated all around. The hams densely coated with a thick, long jacket in excess of any other part. Neither the natural outline nor the natural texture of the coat may be changed by any artificial means except that the feet and rear may be trimmed for cleanliness. I think that most if not all who have commented so far aren't against having fur, we're just fed up with the overall 'poofyness' and overly sculpted look that so many have migrated towards. That's not what made these dogs what they are. IMO, the dog as it enters a ring should be able to exit and go straight to do what it was originally bred for; in the OES case, chase sheep around a pasture. Now I know someone is gonna be a smart-ass at this point and say something about dogs like the overly trimmed poodles. Those guys are toys. While they were bred for hunting to some degree, their 'sporting' cut was done with reason and purpose. It was after the high-society folks got to take a liking to them did this change and there is still a 'sporting' cut listed in their breed standard. Read their history and this all makes sense and I don't even like poodles, but I get it. I for one say judge the dog for what it should be; not what some crazy person with a pair of expensive scissors, a comb that is great for teasing, a bad haircut on their own head and WAY too much time thinks in their own whacked-out world thinks they should look like. As for judges; Don't they have to be certified to judge specific breeds? Are they required to maintain their certifications like any other occupation or en devour that requires a cert to do it? I know I must re-certify my IT knowledge every three years. I've seen some of these judges who got their cert way back in the eighties; have they had that knowledge checked or tested by an impartial panel or exam since? Or does the AKC or whoever think that the ring time for the judges is good enough? I'm only going down this road because recently I saw one OES show against one other who quite frankly looked like Ray Charles AND Helen Keller groomed after an all night bender and lost. The same dog at another show went up against four others who were of exceptional quality making for one tough decision and won. This must clearly be a 'judge' thing. I've heard many people say things like a judge doesn't like bitches, or goes for the larger dog or doesn't like the smaller ones. I've heard this from folks with different breeds, so I'm not speaking about just our Sheepies. I think that the judges need to be held to a higher standard of knowing the bread and judging to that standard and leaving their own personal preference outside the ring. Integrity is what this is all about. Fair and honest. I don't like the idea of looking at a show and deciding not to go because the judge will knowingly overlook one feature about a dog because he/she doesn't 'like' it. It's not their call. It's the breed standard. I know you can't completely remove the human element from anything, but we can get closer than we are. Judges need to be able to see things as the standard calls for and point out where they see things wrong. Maybe not throw people out of the ring, (although that may be fun to watch in some cases!) but maybe like they do at puppy matches, quietly and respectfully. After all, you do want folks to come back. Now, I know I'm new to the whole show thing. Hell I'm relativity new to Sheepies compared to many here. But when I decide to do something, I look at as many angles to determine if I have a fighting chance of succeeding. I pay attention to far more that most and I remember a lot of what others consider useless information. But this makes me a little sharper on many things that matter. At least I think so. When Jen and I decided to show Caitlyn, I looked at a lot of those different angles. I listened to the few key folks who we spoke to about it all and decided we did in fact have a fighting chance. Mostly because we got a REALLY good dog from a couple of better dogs who came from other better dogs. More importantly, I'm not doing this for the money, (anyone will tell you there's none in it), we're not doing it to end up on TV, (I've done my time on TV and that was enough); we're doing it to have fun and a chance for something for Jen and I to do together that we both like. I took the same attitude towards my pinstriping work. Early on, I decided that when it becomes more work than fun, or more aggravation from things outside of my control, then I was out. I striped for over fours years. I made dozens of good friends and made a LOT of money doing it. But there came a time when it was more of a job then a hobby. I was out and it was immediate. With this I can walk away form the show side, but I'll always have Caitlyn and the fun she brings to having a Sheepie. So whether the judges change or not; whether what enters the ring changes or not, we're showing. We may try to change things a little on our own, but we're showing. So long as it's fun. And doesn't send us to the poor house. Whose next on the soap box? Vance |
Mady wrote: I have to confess something here. When David said he wanted an Old English Sheepdog more than two years ago, I, of course, started off my research with Google and I was really turned off of the breed by the pictures. I thought OES looked like silly, frou frou dogs and I wanted a 'real' dog. That was Adam to a T! He didn't know that the big poof wasn't natural!!! He could not believe I wanted such a ridiculous looking dog, and then when he saw that the dogs at the breeders didn't look like that, he was SO relieved!!! |
| I've only had my dogs professionally groomed once and I insisted it not be the poofy show dog look that is currently in vogue. [img]  [/img]This would never have flown in a show ring, but to me, this is more appealing. |
Vance wrote: I've heard many people say things like a judge doesn't like bitches, or goes for the larger dog or doesn't like the smaller ones. I've heard this from folks with different breeds, so I'm not speaking about just our Sheepies. I think that the judges need to be held to a higher standard of knowing the bread and judging to that standard and leaving their own personal preference outside the ring. Integrity is what this is all about. Fair and honest. I don't like the idea of looking at a show and deciding not to go because the judge will knowingly overlook one feature about a dog because he/she doesn't 'like' it. It's not their call. It's the breed standard. So whether the judges change or not; whether what enters the ring changes or not, we're showing. We may try to change things a little on our own, but we're showing. So long as it's fun. And doesn't send us to the poor house. Whose next on the soap box? Vance I guess it's my turn on the soap baox I have also heard judges (of oes) make comments about their personal preferences....."some of them were just too tall" was one comment that really rubbed me the wrong way. There is no "too tall" in our breed standard!!!! There is "too short". I guess when you are involved in a judged sport you just have to accept that there is no "fair and honest" because a human is deciding. And even though our standard only calls for trimming of bum and feet, people will continue to "sculpt" their oes. One can chose to join in or not. I am not a breeder, so I have the luxury of showing my dog in a way that I like and not caring about wins or loses. Winning is still a good feeling, but if Millie and I have fun and I've made just one person think about how our dogs naturally look, then it's been a good show.I'll start looking for a show. |
tgir wrote: I've only had my dogs professionally groomed once and I insisted it not be the poofy show dog look that is currently in vogue. [img] [/img]This would never have flown in a show ring, but to me, this is more appealing. Love it!!!! Very beautiful sheepie   |
4 my OES wrote: Other than the carting\sledding that Dawn does with Chewie, there should be no reason I couldn't keep Teddy's coat long for other activities like agility or herding right? I would like to try both of these sports with him and even the carting when he's older. He is such an athlete and loves to run so I think it would be fun to give them a go. Cindy Mady does herding and agility in full coat just fine. It does mean extra work grooming and cleaing though of course! |
Millielover wrote: tgir wrote: I've only had my dogs professionally groomed once and I insisted it not be the poofy show dog look that is currently in vogue. [img] [/img]This would never have flown in a show ring, but to me, this is more appealing. Love it!!!! Very beautiful sheepie I concur! This is the look of the sheepie I love! Beautiful!Cindy |
Baba wrote: 4 my OES wrote: Other than the carting\sledding that Dawn does with Chewie, there should be no reason I couldn't keep Teddy's coat long for other activities like agility or herding right? I would like to try both of these sports with him and even the carting when he's older. He is such an athlete and loves to run so I think it would be fun to give them a go. Cindy Mady does herding and agility in full coat just fine. It does mean extra work grooming and cleaing though of course! Thanks David! I've had OES since 1980 so to me it's no extra work, just part of the package deal! Cindy |
Let me just say I'm enjoying all the posts about this subject. I had no idea the can of worms I was opening!  Very interesting!   Cindy |
Baba wrote: Mady does herding and agility in full coat just fine. It does mean extra work grooming and cleaing though of course! And that's just it. You have one dog. (Still??? )When I had one dog I could spend oodles of time keeping Belle in coat making her look beautiful. To this day at almost 14 she has never been shaved, ever, though I have scissored her back many, many times. Start working multiple dogs and the excesive coat is a pain in the butt and seriously cuts into training and conditioning time, which is a much a factor in making the breed look like it's ripe for the non-sporting group as however they are presented in the ring. Real dogs are much more wash and wear. That said, Cindy - absolutely Teddy can do agility and herding and you can show him at the same time. The one thing that you have to watch in agility is when the leg and belly coat gets too long, because it will knock bars, OR the dog will learn to overjump to compensate. Also, watch his toes, depending on what surface you're doing herding on. It can get a bit torn up. You probably don't want to be doing herding with him in specials coat, if, once you get that far, you want to go that route. For one thing you risk him overheating - the same is true seasonally in agility - and for another it's just too much work and puts the coat at too much risk. Finish specialing him and then go back to doing stuff. That's what Sunny did with Luca. He's in a puppy cut now and having the time of his life. Kristine |
What's that? An excuse to post pictures? Sure here you go!      |
| Those are awesome pictures David! Cindy |
| That said, Cindy - absolutely Teddy can do agility and herding and you can show him at the same time. The one thing that you have to watch in agility is when the leg and belly coat gets too long, because it will knock bars, OR the dog will learn to overjump to compensate. Also, watch his toes, depending on what surface you're doing herding on. It can get a bit torn up. You probably don't want to be doing herding with him in specials coat, if, once you get that far, you want to go that route. For one thing you risk him overheating - the same is true seasonally in agility - and for another it's just too much work and puts the coat at too much risk. Finish specialing him and then go back to doing stuff. That's what Sunny did with Luca. He's in a puppy cut now and having the time of his life. Kristine Thanks Kristine for the info. I doubt I'll do any specialing. First he has to finish! We've only had one agility class so we have a long way ahead for anything like competing. I can see where the long coat could knock bars off. I guess we have lots work and fun ahead of us. Now I'm tired just thinking about all this!....lolCindy |
Not sure if you can make out Zeke's coat type in this pic. If you click on this link, you can see the pic supersized: http://photos.oes.org/displayimage.php? ... fullsize=1 |
| [quote="CamVal1"]Guys, Take it one step further. Shave your dogs before showing. They'd still have to judge the dog itself (and not the fur), right? So the hair length SHOULD be irrelevant. quote]  Wrong! Look guys the current coat presentation is in many ways "out of hand" but the coat, both in terms of texture and quantity, is part of the standard. From the AKC standard "he is profusely, but not excessively coated " . That is pretty clear and most of not all other Bobtail standards worldwide have an equivalent phrase. This is an outdoor herding breed that was developed in a miserable winter climate so coat was important to the dog's health. While I would support any exhibitor who wanted to "buck the trend" and present the coat as it was shown in the 60s and 70s to say clip them down before a show is not only against the wording and the intent of the standard it is in fact quite irresponsible and dangerous. It could have wide ranging effects that you are not even beginning to contemplate right now, especially in the current political climate of extremist AR rights activists such as PETA and HSUS. If they were to see a shaved OES in the ring, and God forbid that it were to win, they would undoubtedly seize on it saying that the long coat is not necessary - even OES owners aren't following the standard, they are winning and so then those dogs left in full coat are being abused by both being forced to be too hot and enduring unnecessary grooming "torture". Thus no long coated breeds should be allowed. PETA, HSUS and other AR extremists attend shows to both disrupt them and gather "intel" against the dog fancy. This could easily be a direct consequence of trying to show a shaved Bobtail. Other than simply not liking the term the AR movement is in fact the biggest single reasons I never refer to Bobtails as Sheepies, especially in public forums and discussions. Believe me AR activists are keeping this in their docket to use against us as they continue to press the anti-docking/cropping campaign. If the Bobtail community itself does not hold onto and use the traditional nickname they will claim that we ourselves don't really care about docking them so why not legistate against it. Lets remember to be responsible in what we say on this forum and in public rather than getting carried away by the moment. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
Carl Lindon wrote: CamVal1 wrote: Guys, Take it one step further. Shave your dogs before showing. They'd still have to judge the dog itself (and not the fur), right? So the hair length SHOULD be irrelevant. quote] Wrong! Look guys the current coat presentation is in many ways "out of hand" but the coat, both in terms of texture and quantity, is part of the standard. From the AKC standard "he is profusely, but not excessively coated " . That is pretty clear and most of not all other Bobtail standards worldwide have an equivalent phrase. This is an outdoor herding breed that was developed in a miserable winter climate so coat was important to the dog's health. While I would support any exhibitor who wanted to "buck the trend" and present the coat as it was shown in the 60s and 70s to say clip them down before a show is not only against the wording and the intent of the standard it is in fact quite irresponsible and dangerous. It could have wide ranging effects that you are not even beginning to contemplate right now, especially in the current political climate of extremist AR rights activists such as PETA and HSUS. If they were to see a shaved OES in the ring, and God forbid that it were to win, they would undoubtedly seize on it saying that the long coat is not necessary - even OES owners aren't following the standard, they are winning and so then those dogs left in full coat are being abused by both being forced to be too hot and enduring unnecessary grooming "torture". Thus no long coated breeds should be allowed. PETA, HSUS and other AR extremists attend shows to both disrupt them and gather "intel" against the dog fancy. This could easily be a direct consequence of trying to show a shaved Bobtail. Other than simply not liking the term the AR movement is in fact the biggest single reasons I never refer to Bobtails as Sheepies, especially in public forums and discussions. Believe me AR activists are keeping this in their docket to use against us as they continue to press the anti-docking/cropping campaign. If the Bobtail community itself does not hold onto and use the traditional nickname they will claim that we ourselves don't really care about docking them so why not legistate against it. Lets remember to be responsible in what we say on this forum and in public rather than getting carried away by the moment. Thanks and Cheers Carl I totally agree and I am not for showing shaved bobtails. I am merely making an observation that if the standard says our dogs should be "profusely, but not excessively coated" and "not to give the impression of the dog being overly fat" then I think most dogs shown are excessively coated. The akc standard also says..."Neither the natural outline nor the natural texture of the coat may be changed by any artificial means except that the feet and rear may be trimmed for cleanliness" and the bobtails we see in the show ring are sculpted into something other than their natural outline. I only want to conform to the standard, to not trim or tease my dog into looking like something no natural sheepdog looks like. I repeat, I only want to conform to the standard. I wish many others did too. Thanks for reminding us to chose our words carefully, we can all get carried away when we are so passionate about something. In this case it would be a shame for us not to stay focused on the real issue because we have such a valid point. Thanks for your wisdom, your words are greatly appreciated. |
| See, this "he is profusely, but not excessively coated " is too vague, too subjective to me. What one person finds profuse, another may not. If the AKC wants to see sheepie fur a certain length, then they should call it out in numbers (ie, "coat shall be between 3 inches long and 5 inches long"). A statement like that would remove all ambiguity about a sheepie's coat length. So I agree that a shaved sheepie couldn't enter the ring, but there should be no reason why one in a puppy cut couldn't. And no reason why one in a puppy cut couldn't win. |
| Carl - since I'm the one who brought this up: I never said anyone should show their dogs shaved, I said I'd like to see a shaved (AKA working) class. But that it would take a standard change, and it ain't worth going there. I did say people can certainly show without the stripping and trimming we see today, AKA what was more typical in the early 70s. Current day bobtails are indeed excessively coated for the most part (from a working point of view; but as Mark points out the terms is subjective and vague) And, Mark - since we're not supposed to trim our dogs, we can't say coat should be a certain length. Plus, it's not for the AKC to determine - in the US, the breed standard is determined by OESCA and no breed standard allows for the trimming, beyond head and butt for cleanliness/neatness (also safety, frankly, big slippered feet are not only ugly, but unsafe) and stripping that you see in most rings and on most dogs. Mind you, it's not just the length of coat that is excessive from a working point of view, but the amount and quality of undercoat (massive and often cottony, matting at the drop of a hat). Yes, they needed coat to be protected, depending on the season, but they are adequately protected, with a proper coat, with a lot less hair than what we typically see today. it is what it is and has been for a long time, so I doubt we'll ever turn back the clock on that one, but I do think it helps explain why the stripping and trimming we see today is en vogue - it's that or show a mobile haystack. Mark - having said all that, a shaved dog won the American (OESCA) national specialty in 2007. He was permitted to be shown shaved/scissored (he had a couple of inches or so of hair as I recall) because he was a veteran. I showed against him with a veteran bitch in 06 (he beat us for best veteran, deservedly so) and she, too, was shown with just minimal coat. It was - sorry, Carl - very liberating. One of the (many) reasons I love showing veterans. but I digress.Kristine |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Ditto And not because I tease. I do as little of that as possible. Head coat is the main area. And you are correct in the amount of hair old versus new. It's not the length we are talking about so much as the actual volume & quantity of hair on the newer generations. Think hair follicles per square inch. I have 1 boy with very correct coat. He takes forever to grow back in from a shave down to a full coat. Over a year for what I want. Mainly because the length is there but it doesn't look like it because it is so coarse it never, ever lays flat. The only thing I ever had to tease on him was his head so he could see out of his eyes.Yes, there are still some dogs out there like that on this side of the pond as well. He's a really nice boy Kristine |
CamVal1 wrote: See, this "he is profusely, but not excessively coated " is too vague, too subjective to me. What one person finds profuse, another may not. If the AKC wants to see sheepie fur a certain length, then they should call it out in numbers (ie, "coat shall be between 3 inches long and 5 inches long"). A statement like that would remove all ambiguity about a sheepie's coat length. So I agree that a shaved sheepie couldn't enter the ring, but there should be no reason why one in a puppy cut couldn't. And no reason why one in a puppy cut couldn't win. One thing to remember is that no matter how "clear" the standard is written, the judge's interpretation of the wording is what is being used in the ring that day. And that varies from judge to judge no matter how much training they have & no matter how many OES they go over. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: One thing to remember is that no matter how "clear" the standard is written, the judge's interpretation of the wording is what is being used in the ring that day. And that varies from judge to judge no matter how much training they have & no matter how many OES they go over. True. But remember also that judges will have different priorities and no dog is perfect. One judge may be able to overlook a less than stellar head, or excessive grooming, in favor of an incredibly moving dog who is also...[fill in the blanks], while another may be a head or coat or...? fanatic and put up a dog who to my eye can barely put one foot in front of another. NEITHER IS STRICTLY SPEAKING WRONG. Unless it's YOUR dog that didn't get put up, in which case the judge is clearly blind as a bat and couldn't tell an OES from a wombat! (we all tend to go a little "kennel blind" from time to time )In fact, we each have our own priorities: co-breeder and I see the same things when evaluating a litter, but almost without fail pick different puppies as our picks. We have different priorities. The key is to know your own dog's strengths and weaknesses and be able to evaluate those of the dogs in the ring with you and then judging USUALLY won't seem so arbitrary. Depending on the judge, I've beaten dogs that overall in my opinion were better than the dog I was showing, and lost to same. I've also been dumped to dogs you couldn't pay me to own, but who were nonethless clearly much stronger than my dog in some way, and if the judge was consistent, I have no problem with that. If you truly feel a judge is incompetent/biased, it's your perogative to never show to that judge again (called "giving the judge an entry"). Judges are hired to some extent, perhaps especially now, on their ability to draw an entry, so it is in their best interest to judge in such a way that gives the highest number of potential exhibitors confidence that they will be judged competently and fairly. So before you assume a judge is incompetent because s/he didn't put up your dog on a given day, make sure you truly understand your dog and your competitors' dogs as well. And, remember, it's just a dog show. You still always, always, go home with the best dog there; yours. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: ...And, remember, it's just a dog show. You still always, always, go home with the best dog there; yours. Kristine And therein lies the fun part. Thank you Kristine. I agree with Carl and hope that his backing to buck the trend is an invite for some 'old school grooming' techniques... Vance |
| After a show, is there an opportunity to speak with judges to see why your dog did not win? I think of folks new to showing, for example, and wonder how do they learn why their dogs didn't win? |
Mady wrote: After a show, is there an opportunity to speak with judges to see why your dog did not win? I think of folks new to showing, for example, and wonder how do they learn why their dogs didn't win? Hm. Marilyn? I think if you want to go that route, it has to be done very carefully so as to not seem like you're arguing with the judge's decision (I know you're not, but judge may be used to less-than-constrained exhibitors who feel compelled to argue with their decision, not always nicely - I think it's rare, but I've seen/heard it happen, sometimes weeks after a show, and judges very much frown upon this) For another thing, judges are typically very busy, expected to judge so-so many dogs an hour, so there isn't a lot of time built in for that kind of thing. In obedience, in contrast, at least in the US, you can always take your score sheet and ask the judge why you lost points and if s/he can remember (which tends to be the case when you're trialing an OES ) they will usually go over it with you. I know that's the kind of feed-back you're looking for, but it's much harder in the breed ring, and, too, a couple of long time judges I've spoken to (casually - they're friends, so I don't show to them) note that though exhibitors SAY they want honest feedback, they can tell they really don't, and don't enjoy hurting someone's feelings for no good reason. So even though YOU may truly want an honest opinion, judge may be conditioned to say as little as possible, or gloss over the important things so as to not risk hurting your feelings.Probably better to get to know a number of different long-time breeder/exhibitors, ideally with some degree of objectivity of their own, and have them review things with you. Or at least that's been my experience. Kristine |
| I have to think that in a normal dog show setting, asking a judge something as honest and non-confrontational as what can I do to make my dog better might easily as coming off as questioning their knowledge/ability/experience and so on. The very last thing you want to to is anger one of these judges as you WILL see them again and they WILL be judging your dog - this is a small world... And as much as we'd like to think this won't come up in the back of their minds, I'll bet it will from time to time. That's a chance not worth taking. Because I know in my case, it will happen when I'm looking a a majors event where I may have a shot at winning. This is one reason why Marilyn suggested me get as many puppy matches in as we can. We're able to briefly talk to the judges. The judge that I had for the class judging in Delaware was pretty good. The Group judge was, well down right cold. She didn't seem to want to look at any other dog then one Sheltie. However, the judge in Columbus two weeks ago was awesome. She was very patient and willing to work with me and my little rebel to give her the best possible chance. Caitlyn simply had other ideas about what was gonna happen that night. And whose to blame her; she was a single girl out late on the town on a Friday night and there was a certain young man in the ring with her that she did fancy... Vance |
| I emailed my breeder about a month ago telling her about the upcoming shows I was entering and I thought this was some very good advice she shared with me; "(FYI - I VERY RARELY ask the judge what they thought of my dog after judging. The proof is in the pudding and they usually don't tell the truth anyway because it's usually the loser who is asking and are upset with the results..Just a word of advise for the future.) simply enjoy the experience and don't take it personal- it's only one person's opinion of your dog." That's pretty much what you said also Kristine and I have to agree. Take your loss, congratulate the winner and move on. When it stops being fun then it's time to stop. This is an expensive hobby when you figure in all the entry fees, travel expenses, etc, so if you aren't having fun, what's the point? Well, that's my opinion of it anyway. Cindy |
4 my OES wrote: Take your loss, congratulate the winner and move on. When it stops being fun then it's time to stop. This is an expensive hobby when you figure in all the entry fees, travel expenses, etc, so if you aren't having fun, what's the point? Well, that's my opinion of it anyway. Cindy Bingo, Cindy! And, was thinking as I was out spending more money buying assorted containment related items aimed at puppy proofing house - six weeks old and I think the only thing they haven't mastered yet is countersurfing - some judges are very nice about giving you handling tips in the ring. I had one long-time judge bend over Macy and put his ear next to her muzzle  - I thought: what on earth is he doing???? - straighten up, look me straight in the eye and state very seriously: "I have a message for you from your bitch: she says to tell you she is a very square bitch with a nice top line and she would prefer you not stretch her out like that". Then he reset her rear for me Believe me, this is not a lesson you quickly forget. This is the same judge who some years earlier once told co-breeder, when she was showing Mace's grandma as a special, that Coco needed a girdle (and he was right about that too )Thinking about it, over the years a number of judges have taken the time to help me in some way, just typically not so dramatically as above So, yes, some times you are in essense being told what you can do better without having to ask. I really value that kind of feedback.Kristine |
| I hadn't even thought about the handling aspect of it all. I am sure there is a trick to it, but so far to me it just looks like running in a circle with your dog. I need to go to more shows! I missed a big one held in Ottawa last weekend. Time to start looking at the Canadian Kennel Club website! |
| Kim, I can tell you there is WAY more than just walking around a square! I've learned that the hard way. To do this right, there must be amillion things running through you head at once and that's with a seasoned, well behaved dog. It's ten million things with a puppy!!! And all this WHILE trying to see what the judge wants you to do and where they want you. It's very nerve-wracking for me, a beginner but I'll bet it's not much different for a veteran. Maybe Marilyn or Carl can chime in on this one... I LOVE it but then again I'm the kind of freak who likes speaking from of crowds  I smoked my public speaking class in college without really trying. I was just up there having fun and aced it.Vance |
Vance wrote: Kim, I can tell you there is WAY more than just walking around a square! I've learned that the hard way. To do this right, there must be amillion things running through you head at once and that's with a seasoned, well behaved dog. It's ten million things with a puppy!!! And all this WHILE trying to see what the judge wants you to do and where they want you. It's very nerve-wracking for me, a beginner but I'll bet it's not much different for a veteran. Maybe Marilyn or Carl can chime in on this one... I LOVE it but then again I'm the kind of freak who likes speaking from of crowds I smoked my public speaking class in college without really trying. I was just up there having fun and aced it.Vance I have enjoyed reading about the 'noobies' adventures in showing. And I think that it is wonderful and necessary for new folks to join in the fun. Maybe one day in the future I will get brave enough to try that, although not with Mady of course. |
Mad Dog wrote: Mady wrote: After a show, is there an opportunity to speak with judges to see why your dog did not win? I think of folks new to showing, for example, and wonder how do they learn why their dogs didn't win? Hm. Marilyn? Kristine Ah What???? I get the impression you want me to chime in here? Sorry, I was away at dog shows again this weekend Actually, the answer is staring you in the face. The judge liked the other dog better. For whatever reason. If the decision is really close, you will know it. The judge will be debating back & forth. And most of the time they will take the time to let you know they liked all, both or whatever & it was a tough decision. Or it could be like last weekend. Two old ladies with matching right knee braces in the same class with 2 nice bitches. Seasoned judge. Actually this is "his" breed (meaning he had bred & shown & won with this breed). Has judged either these 2 bitches before or dogs from their lines before. (They generally run you around the ring, go over your dog, send you down & back & around the ring again. Do the same for the others in the class. And maybe send you all around together again & choose the class winner). Well, after the 4th time around the ring, the 2nd time down & back & then going over each bitch again thoroughly for the 3rd time, he finally made his decision. After awarding the point (read SINGLE point), he took the time to tell us how close the decision was & what he made it on. That's nice. Especially since both handlers were about to pass out from running so much (We actually made a pact this weekend to both get back on the treadmill & keep a record. The one who loses the most & is most regular about "walking" gets treated to dinner by the other!). Hopefully, the judge is consistent is his selection (given there is enough of an entry). If you have a more petite bitch & Winner's dog, Winner's bitch & BOB are all on the larger end of the scale for their sex, you know that judge prefers the larger sized dogs. If you notice eveything that is put up moved extremely "easy" & got those front feet out past their nose then you know movement may be their deciding factor. If you have to ask a judge what they didn't like about your dog, you probably either aren't going to like the answer or will get something so vague that you might as well have not asked. It's your job to watch what they put up & figure it out. It can be tricky...alot depends what what is entered on a given day. And Cindy, your breeder was right on with her advice....it is just 1 person's opinion of your dog on that particular day. |
Vance wrote: Kim, I can tell you there is WAY more than just walking around a square! I've learned that the hard way. To do this right, there must be amillion things running through you head at once and that's with a seasoned, well behaved dog. It's ten million things with a puppy!!! And all this WHILE trying to see what the judge wants you to do and where they want you. It's very nerve-wracking for me, a beginner but I'll bet it's not much different for a veteran. Maybe Marilyn or Carl can chime in on this one... I LOVE it but then again I'm the kind of freak who likes speaking from of crowds I smoked my public speaking class in college without really trying. I was just up there having fun and aced it.Vance Well for various reasons I haven't shown for quite a few years but okay I'll offer a few personal opinions for whatever they may be worth. If it looks like it is just running in circles then the handlers you have seen have done their job well! But as Vance has said that is certainly not the reality of showing. There is a lot to it, a lot happens at the same time and much of it is actually quite subtle and requires time and experience to develop as well as being cognisant of how each dog you handle reacts to the ring environment as well as being able to focus them on the showing. What works with one dog will not necessarily work another one! (How many excellent show jumping horses flounder when ridden by an inexperienced novice?) While you can learn through a mentor and lots of practise it is too expensive of a sport to just "wing it" and those who "wing it" rarely win even with a proven dog. If someone really wants to show it is well worth the cost of taking a handling class course and even if you are well prepared take your dog through the course to prepare them for the many new experiences that are a dog show, especially their first show. I was fortunate because when we got our first Afghan Hound in my teenage years the local kennel club was just building up it's show section and offered handling classes into which Mom and Dad enrolled me. And we were also very fortunate to have several very good instructors so I was well gounded in the fundamentals "early in life" so to speak. Because I was interested in it and enjoyed both the classes and showing itself I learned it well and I've never forgotten any of it. When I came to show Virgil Tiberius after many years of being away from showing it came back almost naturally with little thought or effort. The only difficulty was learning what each individual judge wanted. That is just a matter of experience and where your mentor (often your breeder or show partner) really comes into play. Having a mentor is really important to help you gain "experience" more quickly and a show partner (even from another breed) helps to defray the costs and provides good mutual support with physical and resource help when needed. I can't say say that I ever found showing to be nerve-wracking. But then again it is like pretty much any other public activity, if I know what I am doing then nerves don't come into play. And I won't pretend to know something I don't and won't enter something for which I am ill-prepared. I know that is not necessarily the case for everyone but once you know the subject matter well (in this case the show fundamentals) any public activity becomes much easier. Learn ahead of time, practise at every opportunity, repeat and repeat until you and your dog(s) become a smooth and effective team. Puppies and their handlers are generally "cut some slack" by almost all judges. Most judges are "dog people" and understand that like young 2-footer kids, puppy attention spans are short and energy levels are high. Junior puppy misbehaviour is expected and as long as it is not "over the top" you will generally be given a fair shake. But once you get to senior puppy, then you need to have a well trained and predominantly well behaved dog to win and proceed beyond this class. Finally, I laud the attitude of a number of posters on this thread that they are just in it for the fun and once it stops being fun they will stop. Try to keep that up but also be pragmatic. This IS an expensive sport, period! It also requires a lot of work and effort so be realistic about your dog, don't enter a low conformation quality dog "just for fun". If you want to show make sure your breeder knows this so you do actually get a show potential puppy. To do anything else is unfair to both yourself and your breeder. Please don't campaign and unsuitable dog, that is just wrong to everyone involved. You because you are wasting your effort, time and money, your breeder because you will be doing a lot of damage to the reputation of his/her kennel, their previous success and the value of their line - not only monitarily but perhaps more so in the desirabilty of that line as a breeding partner to other kennels. Remember a kennel's show success is their advertising and hence is in many ways their lifeblood. While no "quality breeder" I know makes money on their breeding hobby they do need to minimize their losses and damaging their kennel reputation will affect just how much they can breed - nobody wants to breed to a reputed "loser line". Hence the future of their own line is directly compromsied and the amount that they can contribute to the future strength and genetic diversity of an already small breed population can be substantially harmed. And it can be unfair to your dog. Dog shows can be stressful to dogs, like two-footed children they get tired and moody, they have to endure extra grooming and put up with being exposed to a lot of new people, other dogs and what are initially strange and even personally invasive situations. If he/she does not have sufficient conformation quality to really be a potential winner or does not have a strong personality to enjoy this environment it is completley unfair to put them through this. And finally in this vien, showing without winning at least your class on occassion quickly looses it's lustre and fun. Honestly, in my never humble opinion, in the end showing cannot be justified just "because it is fun" if you are not getting a few class wins and an occassional breed win and group placement. Well that is probably more than enough rambling for now but I was invited to offer an opinion or two! Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it! Thanks and Cheers Carl |
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