Herding Instinct?
However, Bella tends to get very excited when running the course and will start to nip at my pants leg while we are running the course. I mentioned to the instructor I thought that might be a bit of the herding instinct in her...Teacher laughed and said the herding instinct has been long bred out of all these dogs...  What do you make of that comment? |
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| Well, we haven't done a very good job of selecting for herding instinct/ability. Too, there aren't many OES that are successful at the (herding) trial level. There are probably many reasons for that, that's a whole 'nother discussion. Every one of us who does agility has probably heard: "wow! I didn't know an OES could run/jump/move/turn like that..!"  In every day life they look like big, bumbling buffoons. I think the perception is partially based on lack of participation (in all venues). You don't see many so you presume most are duds. Mind you, I don't see the nipping and so on as proof of herding instinct. Yeah, it may be the breeds of the herding persuasion are more apt to vent their frustration that way, but it's not indicative of herding ability. My rescue dog literally follows me around the house, bumping my butt. She's also my prime nipper when she gets overexcited. Yet she failed herding instinct testing. Oh, don't get me wrong - she chased the stock. Nothing wrong with her prey drive. Many other testers might have been "nicer" and passed her anyway - instinct testing is not hard to pass, sustained interest in stock will usually do the trick. But I happen to agree with the tester - it was prey drive, pure and simple. Herding is based on prey drive, but dogs should show certain instincts beyond that and procuring lunch is NOT one of them  The breed gets no respect. We have an uphill battle in front of us if we want to change that, but I think it can be done. In the mean time I pay not attention to the naysayers in agility as many of them have "sports border collies" who are basically bred to be insane and often aren't much in the herding department either. You do get what you select for and will lose things you aren't specifically selecting for. But for all that - the selection process vis-a-vis herding is so incredibly random in our breed - there's still by pure chance some ability lurking there. It just rarely gets developed. Kristine |
 Too often we assume these instincts carry through from generation to generation. Nope, they are lost. Yes, there are retrievers who just don't care about chasing sloppy tennis balls too. Prey instinct is deeper based.......it's called, feeding oneself and the excitement of the chase. I also think some of this nipping is frustration at not being able to communicate ones thoughts with dumb uprights. We'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just say Bella is excited about the chase and your leg/buttocks are in Nipper's reach. |
It appears that how a herding dog goes about hunting down its "prey" differs from the way other dogs do it. Our neighbor has a young Vizsla, a bird dog, that is as fast as lightning. Nelson is a large OES and and several years older than Ziva. He can't outrun her but does out-think her. The chase game they play has her running in tight circles around the yard but the larger swoops that an OES makes are more efficient and effective in keeping order. I've noticed the same thing at sheepdog events such as Sheepiepalooza, Sheepiefest or the Sheep-In this year. They love to chase and to be chased. Going to the dog park can be frustrating for some OES like Nelson. Either the dogs are intimidated by his size or don't understand that he prefers to chase rather than to run for the sake of running, fetch a ball, tug a rope or other dog-stuff. The dogs at the park we go to are usually Labs and they don't like being chased/herded/labeled as lunch or whatever they think Nelson has in mind. There's still something about an OES that looks like herding no matter what you call it. Besides, herding instinct sounds so much more disciplined than prey drive, and a lot less scary. |
| My vet's friend uses OES as working sheep dogs Nik  |
| It's wonderful when they retain their original use.....be it herding, droving.. withour guys, livestock guardians with the Pyrs, Kuvaz and others........sled dogs/draft dogs, etc. With out a chance to demonstrate their heritage and no longer breeding the best workers to continue the "job" but rather form some other ideal.....we get different dogs that what was around multi generations ago. The only true herder I had was Maudie, a little girl from UK. Didn't matter the size of the animal, she wanted them to follow her instructions. Range cattle don't take kindly to such bossy hairy pipsqueaks. Finniest day was when she spotted trout in a stream who needed herding down to where I was fishing. Obviously I caught no fish but did have a hearty laugh. |
| I was a bit upset by the teachers remark....Yes, I know dogs have been bred from their original "job" for hundreds of years...BUT, I still believe, pure bred dogs maintain some fo their original instincts...I'm not saying the reason my dog is nipping at my pants is strictly due to her herding instinct, but for sure, OES have lots and lots of traits they still maintain from their herding ancestors... I sort of thought this teacher was not so well versed when it came down to different breeds and how different breeds react to training, or anything else...I still believe different breeds react to things differently...did I just make any sense? |
| I agree you teacher was tactless. But remember she's seen many other breeds and I'm sure others have been pant nippers as well.....and maybe no herding breed in them. |
| susan, i've gotten in that bad busy habit about fishing again. would maudie's breeder still be at it? i already have fish and don't expect i'll be owning any sheep soon. i would like to start fishin again as it was always so relaxing and i'd like enzo to be a fish herder so it would also become hysterical. i was always catch and release guy anyway and could now fish from a lawn chair.  |
| I agree the teacher was tactless...grain of salt. Simon was a nipper and if you are interested on how to make it stop, I'll tell you what I did. If he started to nip, which can hurt, I made him stop and sit and tell him no bite. Then we would continue on. If he did it again, stop, sit, no bite. The stopping and sitting were killers because he loved the running, jumping and playing. It really didn't take long for him to learn not to nip. |
| Really tactless, Diane, but just let it go. I doubt she really meant the comment to be hurtful. Our breed is a bit misunderstood to say the least. The farm closest to us that has herding lessons thinks that only Border Collies, German Shepherds and Shelties can herd. Everyone has their own favorite breed (don't we?) and they're always going to be partial to that. OES are fairly rare as a breed and seeing them in herding is even less common. It's up to us to prove that they can do it. |
I have let it go but I must say, I think this was one of the reasons I changed obedience instructors.  Anyway, it is a great place for agility and with the cold weather, we won't be practicing on the front lawn for long so this works for us... And, that is how I am handling the nipping...We immediately stop, I make Bella sit and then heel her in a small circle to get her attention back and off we go again...She is such a tiger!!! |
| Kenzie herds my 4 grand children all the time! Nik |
| Apache, our first oes, did herd. Every morning when I was leaving for work and I went over to kiss Carl goodbye, he had me by the front door faster than I knew what was happening, it as a combination of little nips and using his body to push me forward. |
| Just catching up on this now. Herding instinct, from what I understand from our herding trainer, is more than prey drive or interest in chasing sheep. It is about your dog using his/her body and eyes to move sheep, and to find that magical balance needed to move the sheep in a controlled way. I know that Amber, our breeded, did not breed for herding instinct but it has been neat lately to find out that some of her dogs are showing real talent in this area (our Mady included). Our trainer is a border collie breeder but she LOVES working with Mady. An OES has a very different style than a border collie. Some of the other sheep herding folks on this forum advised us to try to find an instructor who was not a breed snob regarding herding and we listened to that advice and it has worked out well for us. We used that advice with agility too and found a club that delights in working with different breeds. Being a first time dog owner, I was very very VERY surprised by some of the meanness and snobbery that exists in the dog world. But luckily there are more dog folks that are kind and helpful. Bring your dog herding, just once even, just for fun. It would be neat to see a herding person assess whether the instinct had been bred out of your dog! |
| The 2011 World Sheep Dog Trials were held just down the road from me earlier this year - truely amazing to watch - pretty much all Border Collies. OES have an entirely different style to Collies. Totally agree with your comments Mady. Nik |
| Well our first OES that we lost last Christmas was an amazing herder. When we would host our annual Christmas party with about 125 people. She would manage to casually walk up to guests and lean on them until they took a step or two in the direction she chose. Then she would go lean on someone else until before you knew it, she had everyone in one room and she could sit back and relax. We could never take her to our kids soccer games because it would stress her out to see everyone running about. She had to get in there and herd them. It was never taught to her it just came naturally. Now my other two are not so much that way. Haven't seen any herding instincts from them other than going upstairs and sitting on the landing overlooking the family room once my kids go to bed. They can keep an eye on everyone from there!! I guess that is sort of herding. |
| We did bring both of our dogs to a herding instinct testing and my female did well...my male, not so much BUT...it is the female in the agility class... I should update this post....The instructor must ahve been talking about us or talking to the other instructors...Our next class she went into a big speech about how OES are herding dogs and they heard from behind or something, some herding breeds herd from the front  Anyway, she took a three hundred degree turn around and now says Bella has a strong herding instinct...Whatever...I don't know all that much about training in my opinion...Although I trained my frst OES to CDX...and have been to instructor school given by the Volhards every year...There is much I still need to learn BUT...I expect my instructors to know more than me about what each breed is bred for and the way those traits effect how they train and methods of training....whatever...Bella is doing FANTASTIC in the class and we will complete it...Interesting that us as the OES was possibly a topic of discussion with the instructors! |
| Our 7 month old OES Monty herds our 2 1/2 year old newfy. If I am waking ahead and call the dogs to follow, Monty will look to Buster to check he is coming. If he is not he will crouch down and then run at Buster. Buster will see it coming and turn side on and stand still. Monty will grab Buster by the scruff of the neck growling and barking and pull buster towards me, running as he goes. If he lets go he will trott towards me and continuously check over his shoulder to see if Buster is following. It has been quite useful as Buster does like to lag behind sniffing, but it also can be quite rough and I have to get Monty to release him. I definately think the herding instinct is in the breed but I don't know how well he would do in sheep herding. Does anyone have a release word or action/training they use to get their dog to instantly release the other dog. |
Quote: Monty will look to Buster to check he is coming. If he is not he will crouch down and then run at Buster. Buster will see it coming and turn side on and stand still. Monty will grab Buster by the scruff of the neck growling and barking and pull buster towards me, Wow Remember my Maudie mentioned earlier? That's exactly what she'd to to Basil St. Bernard! If we were talking and Basil was wandering, Maud would go get him and drag him back. Not exactly herding technique, but the right idea. When it was play time she let him run ahead and the come up and bull-dog him to the ground, grab his scuff and pull him down (tho often he'd flip himself) then she proceed to "tear his head off" shaking his scruff. He'd just roll his eyes back and let his tongue flap to the side, loving every shake. |
| Pooh Bear was more of a feet nipper to get people to do what he wanted. Angus is a major HERDER! Have to put him in another room when the little grandkids are all together. He is herding them all over and constantly watching over them. Wish we had somewhere close by to assess him for herding talents. |
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