Neutering - Let the controversy begin!
My biggest concern is Nanook. He has started humping (we struggle getting him to stop) and occasionally experiments with lifting his leg. I've read about growth (but he might be a mix, so do proportions really matter?) and bone cancer, and I just don't know what to do. I'm looking for advice. Any help? |
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The humping is behavioral (OK, I'm clearly talking to an educated pet owner, so you know that) Take the "sex" part out of the equation and just tell the bugger to knock it off - NOW. It's a dominance thing and even if you remove the testosterone etc, you're still going to have to deal with that. He's at an age where he's testing his boundaries. NOW, especially given his size <g> , would be a really good time to make that one perfectly clear in his mind  The rest - you have to do what's best for your dog. Hopefully you work for an openminded kind of vet who will listen to your concerns and respect you for wanting to do what's best for your dog, whatever that happens to be. Kristine |
Thanks, Kristine.  He knows not to hump mom or dad, our trouble is when someone new walks in the door, that's his first reaction. It only lasts a few seconds, and he's fine, but it's totally unacceptable, especially given his size. We now keep him leashed when someone comes over in order to control him, and he gets to greet people when he's calm. As far as the neutering, I guess my struggle is his unknown origins. Had I spent the money on a purebred OES or Newfie, I would have definitely waited. Does it make a difference if the pup is a possible mix as opposed to purebred? I guess that's what I'm struggling with the most. |
Newfie Mum wrote: As far as the neutering, I guess my struggle is his unknown origins. Had I spent the money on a purebred OES or Newfie, I would have definitely waited. Does it make a difference if the pup is a possible mix as opposed to purebred? I guess that's what I'm struggling with the most. Hm. Good question. I'm not sure if there is a simple answer. If he was a true heinz 57 you'd hope that all that mixing it up in the gene department would buy you a shot at an above average immune system, so you could take the immune system benefits to being intact off the table. Given his size, mix or not, the orthopedic risks of neutering young are probably pretty much the same. To me, him being a mix wouldn't be the deciding factor. The other part of the equation is that we're only talking relative risks. Neutering young doesn't mean he WILL have orthopedic or immune mediated problems or will develop osteosarcoma etc etc. It's just a relative risk and you weigh that with other important factors. If his temperament was at all iffy - and humping people who come in is, as you suggest, puppy rude, but not nasty - then I think that would outweight the health issues in my mind. 5 months is young in any breed. Can you compromise with your conscience etc and tell yourself (and your co-workers)" I would like to wait to neuter him until he is...1 year old?" (Or whatever you decide. "Unless something happens before then that makes me re-evaluate that decision, in which case I'll have him neutered earlier". Some times when I give myself an "out" (option) like that I take the pressure off myself and then the right answer (for me, my dog, etc) usually comes to me. I am not good at making decisions under the kind of stress or duress that makes me feel really conflicted about what's right. Kristine |
| There are reasons to neuter early, late, or not at all, of course! And you are right, people get very passionate, and bring up all sorts of statistics that quickly become confusing. I found this paper on the AKC website that was very helpful in our own decision process about when we will spay Benson: http://www.akcchf.org/canine-health/your-dogs-health/determining-the-best-age-at.html Something to be very conscious of when doing your research is when people say this or that action "doubles/triples/quadruples the risk of" whatever. While that sounds terrifying, I want to know the actual risk. Take this quote, for example: "Prostatic cancer in dogs is uncommon, with a reported incidence of 0.2 to 0.6%. Prostatic adenocarcinoma is a highly malignant tumor that cannot be cured medically or surgically. A 2.4 to 4.3 times increase in incidence in prostatic neoplasia with castration has been demonstrated, with that information verified in multiple studies." (source: AKC paper referenced above) So, when you hear that your dog is 4 times a likely to develop prostatic cancer if you neuter him, you worry. In actual percentages, this means his risk of developing cancer increases to anywhere from 0.48% to 2.58%. While we would all love the risk to be 0, that won't happen with any of your choices. The question then becomes, are you willing to accept these odds? My suggestion is to do your research carefully, and be willing to dig down to the specifics that will help make your decision. And if you can share the research that has helped you to make your decision, that should keep your working relationship on a strong, positive track. And may help your vet as she works through the same decision process with clients. Hope this helps! |
| Diane, that's for the link. Very interesting. I did note I'll probably never have another St.B after reading what all they are prone to.......wow! That breed needs serious intervention. |
| Also see http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longterm ... indogs.pdf http://www.cdoca.org/downloads/files/Ea ... havior.pdf http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html Too, one typically looks at breed. If you truly believe he is an OES/Newf mix, you could research which health problems are more prominent in those breeds. For OES you can familarize yourself with the main health problems of concern for this breed in particular. The latest OES health survey was completed in 2009 http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... rt2009.pdf Root-Kustritz quotes an osteosarcoma rate of 0.2%. In OES it is closer to 2 %, so more like 10 times the rate of the dog population as a whole. I don't have links to any Newf healthy survey's handy, but like OESCA they focus their research $ heavily on research related to oesteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma, suggesting these two cancers are considered major health threats in the breed. So the decision is or can be somewhat breed specific, which few vets seem to grasp <?> But also dog specific. If you knew your dog came from a line with much higher than average risk for <fill in the deadly disease> that would probably change the way you looked at things too. It's not a straight forward equation. Primarily we spay/neuter to prevent unwanted litters. There's really no serious health advantage to neutering a healthy male, but lots of social reasons to do so. We do typically spay the girls in this breed by middle age, give or take, to prevent pyometra (uterine infection that can most certainly kill) We can also spay early to prevent mammary cancer. Then again I have two OES girls, age 14 and 11 respectively, who were spayed later in life, one at age four and one at age seven as I recall, who have both had (small - my vet does not wait around on these things!) cancerous mammary tumors removed within the past 2-3 years and are doing just fine. If I had lost a bitch to mammary cancer at age seven or something like that I'm sure I'd feel very differently about this particular cancer  . So for me, I fear a host of other things more. What that means that on top of the science, the breed, the dog etc, you factor in your personal experiences and make the best decision you can for your dog. That's all any of us can do. You'll do fine. Kristine |
| Thanks for the info/advice, everyone. After talking to my fiancé, I decided that I was just feeling too pressured about the whole situation, so I'm going to put off making the decision until the right one becomes blatantly clear. The only thing that's concerning me now, and I wanted to ask for advice here because you're all so helpful, is something that a co-worker brought up. She had a mastiff who she just euthanized at 13 years old. She was working for a different vet when she got him as a pup, and said vet told her to wait til he was two to neuter. She did, and he eventually was euthanized due to old age, with few health problems. When talking to her, however, something that I hadn't thought of was brought up. She said that her opinion is obviously biased because her dog didn't get bone cancer, but she wishes that she had neutered him earlier just because he had a tough surgery/recovery due to his size and age. So I wanted to get a few more opinions. For those of you who neutered later, are there any differences in surgery risks/recovery as opposed to neutering younger? Anything I should know before making my final decision? I know it will be more expensive, but that's totally not an issue. I just was curious as to differences health-wise. Thank for listening to me babble. I don't know what I would do without you all!!!!  |
| I adopted Bella when she was two and had to wait a little for her to finish a heat. I have always adopted and therefore my pups are therefore a year or more when they get spayed. Bella is my largest but she had no problems and recovered just as easy as my smaller dogs 30-40 lbs) Don't let size influence your decision. |
| I had my male OES neutered between 6 and 8 months. Mostly because they told me it was an easier surgery and easier recovery than when he got bigger. He is now going on 5 and okay. My first OES was neutered at about the same age and he lived to be almost 15 with absoultely no major health problems. I think you have to make the decision that is best for you and for your dog. I might add...my male still does the humping the air type thing once in a while  |
| I work with rescue (OES and basset hounds) and we get in quite a few adult males (and females) of both breeds who get neuter/spay surgery while at my house. The recovery is maybe very slightly longer, but in no way would I consider it enough of a factor to make me spay/neuter earlier based on that. In fact, older dogs are calmer than puppies, so easier to keep them calm for recovery. So maybe even BETTER to have them older??  All have done super well, no complications - none even have needed to wear a cone or anything. Pretty much a non event - just a little slow down and taking it easy, then back to normal. |
| Kristine provided some great links, print them out and discuss it with your vet, My personal opinion is Why Neuter the boys at all, yep scare tactics by vets only focus on Ooooh they could get testicular cancer but they never promote the benefits of leaving the boys entire they just scare the hell of of owners with one side of the coin as they say. Unless there is a retained testie or testicals, aggression or the dog is humping everything in sight then really no need to do it at all. Again JMO. At your boys young age at the moment again what Kristine said nothing to do with sex, just a dominance reaction or overexcited reaction. I had that with my boy who still has his dangles at 6 months old, corrected that behaviour straight away and he is now a 42 Kg male and never tried it on me again. My girl humped at that silly teenage stage too her brother  Yes lots of controversy to de-sex the males, but they never let on about the health benefits of leaving them entire either so an owner can make an informative choice as to let them dangle or not  |
| Thank you for the responses, everyone. They're really helpful! We've decided to wait, as he isn't causing in issues. He doesn't really have a dominance problem, hasn't started marking, and I truly feel that the humping is just puppy behavior. He's currently in puppy classes, so I'll talk to the trainer about ways to discourage that behavior. But I really want to thank all of you for helping me work through all this. I was feeling super pressured and stressed, and I feel like I just wasn't in a good place to make that decision. So we'll just wait for the decision to become clear. Maybe I'll just let Nanook make that decision, although I don't know if it will ever happen then. |
lisaoes wrote: Kristine provided some great links, print them out and discuss it with your vet, My personal opinion is Why Neuter the boys at all, yep scare tactics by vets only focus on Ooooh they could get testicular cancer but they never promote the benefits of leaving the boys entire they just scare the hell of of owners with one side of the coin as they say. Unless there is a retained testie or testicals, aggression or the dog is humping everything in sight then really no need to do it at all. Again JMO. At your boys young age at the moment again what Kristine said nothing to do with sex, just a dominance reaction or overexcited reaction. I had that with my boy who still has his dangles at 6 months old, corrected that behaviour straight away and he is now a 42 Kg male and never tried it on me again. My girl humped at that silly teenage stage too her brother Yes lots of controversy to de-sex the males, but they never let on about the health benefits of leaving them entire either so an owner can make an informative choice as to let them dangle or not I agree, and here's the thing, there is a higher rate of testicular cancer in male humans than dogs (or maybe equal, I can't remember but either way it's rare in both species) and you don't see us neutering people prophylactically.... the risk is so low. |
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