Toronto bans the sale of pets from mills
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/ ... ntoNewHome |
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| And they have inspired Ottawa! In the news this week, from the Quebec side of the river, was the bust of a puppy mill (it pisses me off that they use the word breeder to describe these people). Over 500 dogs taken, already 90 puppies born. Then Toronto banned pet sales in pet stores. So there is much talk in Ottawa about this. It is sad that it takes 500 plus dogs to make the news, but I hope that something wonderful comes out of it. No sheepies that I have seen in that bust, seems like mostly toy breeds. So very very sad. I watched an interview with the owner of the farm and she doesn't at all think that she and her family have done anything wrong. When the subject comes up at work, I just remind people that it is the consumer who is ultimately responsible as they provide the market. I know that many people just really were oblivious when they bought their dogs. This media attention should help to educate people, so I hope that things change. |
Willowsprite wrote: Actually - and though I don't in any way defend pet shop puppy sales - they haven't banned puppymill sales, they've just redefined who gets to sell them. Think about it: where do the majority of rescue dogs come from? So the "product" is the same, it's just been recycled and presented in a different package. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But be honest with people: it's not like these dogs were lovingly and appropriately bred by humane societies, eh? One hopes. The biggest humane society in my state tried its hand at a spot of breeding, though I think it was mainly their ignorance that let that happen. Or so I hope.  Kristine |
| The main thing I see is that it builds awareness about the source of the dog and its importance. Because it is the market which ultimately decides this. I think more people would think twice, unlike having puppies sold through Petsmart or something, people would think "it's Petsmart, a big professional outfit which cares about pets right? They wouldn't sell bad puppies right?" And I know aside from sheer ignorance, which can be fought, a big incentive is the low price tag of many puppymill puppies, but educating people that they risk much higher vet costs (not to mention the heartache, behavioural problems etc) might help them think twice about saving a few bucks at the start. Though I've heard stories of poorly bred dogs that are sold at a premium with people thinking "hey, this puppy cost $3000, it has to be great right?". It's sickening to watch this gigantic puppymill's owners on TV. They're in tears crying over the removal of their poor beloved pets, whom they love so much, and they've done nothing wrong. NINETY puppies have already been born in just five days since they were first removed!!!!  Most of the dogs are sick, and who knows what behavioural problems they'll all have being raised in small stalls in a barn. When I think of Amber (sorry Amber, you're just the breeding outfit I know the best ), and the amount of time and money she sinks into every one of her puppies in vet bills, health testing, socialization, play, training, not to mention the support she gives without hesitation after they're gone to homes... seeing this lady on tv cry crocodile tears makes me want to punch her!  |
| True enough.... however most puppymill breeders sell whatever is left to pet stores, and if they no longer have that outlet and are stuck with more puppies my hope is many of them will just stop breeding. I don't like the thought of what happens to the ones they are stuck with either, but again, after a few litters and not selling any I think a lot of them will just bow out. Probably means a high influx of new dogs to rescues for the next few years too though.... but they didn't crop up overnight and they won't go away overnight. Thankfully there really aren't that many puppymills in Canada, most of the ones that do exist are in Quebec. |
| Stacey - yes, some will get out of business, but demand will still be there, so odds are many will just look for other outlets. Then we go after those outlets (online sales? ) and on and on it goes. Mind you, I know what you're saying, and David and Kim, too, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment since I've seen the scenes you're all describing played out on this side of the border: You and I both know that in the aggregate it costs a small fortune to "breed right" by show standards. We accept that. It's a hobby, a passion, an obsession, a labor of love, call it what you want. Never mind that the vast majority of us have real jobs to support our affiliction, so it's time off to take care of litters, which we can't do all that often, and we do lots of other things with our dogs, frequently, so taking time away from that is also an issue and, bottom line, most show breeders: (1) breed very infrequently (2) breed for themselves/the breed first. Between co-breeder and I we've collectively had two litters for a total of 13 puppies in the last 5 1/2 years. Of those, 5 went to pet homes. I'm not saying that's representative of the breed as a whole, but I do know OES registrations/litters are down 50% or so in the past 10 years. Going beyond our own breed we know that (a) people want puppies (b) the few breeders who would qualify as breeding "right" (frequently loosely defined as there being no profit motive) produce only a small number of puppies, fewer still which are available to pet owners. So - and I'm not defending poor breeding practices - my question is: once we successfully shut down most commercial breeders (and the ones under oversight - in the US that means the USDA, and, in some instances, the AKC - are always easier targets, simply because we know who they are) - where are people getting their dogs? Shelters and rescues? That would be nice, but that first means there still needs to be SOMEBODY breeding dogs, even if we have to import them from abroad, bred under god only knows what kind of conditions. Which many US shelters and even some rescues have been doing for a while now. Is that the answer? Have our shelters essentially take on the role as puppy/dog brokers?  For there to be dogs, somebody has to breed them. The question is: who? Like I said, just playing devil's advocate. And I don't know what the answer is either, frankly. I do know I don't miss walking into pet stores and seeing young puppies on display exposed to god only know what diseases people bring in with them  So I don't have a problem with the ban. I'm just not so sure it means what we might think it means.Kristine |
| I see your point definitely.... If there is a demand there must be a supply and vice versa, and unfortunately many puppy buyers are still not educated at all about what they're really doing when they buy a puppy. In Canada oes registrations have hit all time lows in the last few years. Last year was up somewhat I believe ( I don't remember offhand and can't find it in my emails but I *think* the number for 2010 was 139?) There are a couple of new "breeders" in Ontario who are breeding dogs they obtained from unreputable breeders in the states, selling them for less than a third of what a reputable breeder sells for. They're still not selling them very quickly though, it appears to take them 5 or 6 months to sell the last puppy. What's even stranger for me is that I have ten people on a waiting list for next year and yet still have 11 week old pups not in new homes yet. Never had that happen and I've heard it's happening a lot right now so I wonder what that's about? |
| Kristine, I see your point. And it touches on something else I've thought about. I've seen the general response on this forum (and I'm sure on a lot of other respectable forums for other breeds are similiar), to anyone who's come on with questions that even hinted at interest in breeding, have been extremely negative. (and before anyone gets the wrong Idea, I have zero, zero, ZERO interest in ever breeding any dog), someone potentially interested in breeding dogs should not automatically be disavowed of the idea, new, responsible breeders have to come from somewhere, and they should have a place where they can come to to be taught and mentored, as much as warned about the challenges. Just my 2 cents. |
Baba wrote: Kristine, I see your point. And it touches on something else I've thought about. I've seen the general response on this forum (and I'm sure on a lot of other respectable forums for other breeds are similiar), to anyone who's come on with questions that even hinted at interest in breeding, have been extremely negative. (and before anyone gets the wrong Idea, I have zero, zero, ZERO interest in ever breeding any dog), someone potentially interested in breeding dogs should not automatically be disavowed of the idea, new, responsible breeders have to come from somewhere, and they should have a place where they can come to to be taught and mentored, as much as warned about the challenges. Just my 2 cents. BINGO!  Very insightful.Kristine |
| We got our poor Tripper from a pet store. We knew at the time it wasn't the right thing to do but having lost Apache our 1st oes and being in such mysery we went in to look. Having had bassets before my husband's eyes went to Tripper and he saw nothing else. We went home with him, kennel cough and a tail that had been either broken or damaged somehow. We figured no one else would want him and what would happen to him. (He never was grateful that we rescued him) He was our third basset and he was different, found out he came from Kansas where I guess there are lots of puppy mills which we didn't know at the time either. He didn't have the sweet disposition that Tiny or Dudley had, he was a lover but it was on his terms and he could hold a grudge like no one else except my mother. He was very much loved but you could see that whatever conditions he came from had left a mark. |
| [quote="ICH"]He didn't have the sweet disposition that Tiny or Dudley had, he was a lover but it was on his terms and he could hold a grudge like no one else except my mother. quote] I have nothing to add to the conversation, but that has me wiping tea off my monitor.  |
ICH wrote: We got our poor Tripper from a pet store. <snip> We figured no one else would want him and what would happen to him. (He never was grateful that we rescued him) <snip>He didn't have the sweet disposition that Tiny or Dudley had, he was a lover but it was on his terms and he could hold a grudge like no one else except my mother. ROFLMAO! I'm sorry - I shouldn't laugh, but your description left me wishing I'd met him. He sounds like he was quite the character My rescue dog - or, as I'm referring to her this week, "Psycho Bitch"; is there a full moon or something? - is sort of like that I suspect: too much "character" for her own good, more fun to admire from afar than live with. She has her own little fan club in agility class.   One of the problems with pet shops is the age thing. Even if they are genetically reasonably sound, to get them to the public at prime puppy breath age they leave their dam and litter mates too early more often than not, they tend to be over vaccinated, and then, once there, undersocialized. It's just not a good scenario. Kristine |
| I think the key is that pet stores can still sell dogs, and fill the demand, but they can only sell dog's from licensed rescues/shelters. We have a few stores in the area here that have gone that route and it's been very successful and I've seen first hand the positive impact it's had on the municipal shelter overpopulation problem. People that go to pet stores are either lazy or ignorant, and I have a feeling the lazy and the ignorant are going to be quite pleased that their new puppy from the pet store costs $200 as opposed to $2000, and they won't be going online or searching for somewhere else to buy a mill pup. |
| Maybe, Heather, but where did the $200 puppy come from, and how is any more responsible, regardless of price or who's doing the selling? Young puppies do not belong in settings like that, period. A better use of that store space is specially scheduled adoption fairs, especially for the harder to place dogs. Get them out and in front of people. Kristine |
| I'm assuming that Toronto has similar laws as Chicago and that puppies younger than 8 weeks are not allowed to be sold. I understand your point that puppies shouldn't be in settings like that, but these are puppies coming from shelters so a pet store is definitely a step up! Making a change like this isn't going to be a lightning strike that solves the problem of puppies in shelters and irresponsible breeders pumping out puppies, but I believe that it will lessen the demand for mill pups and increase the demand for shelter pups. The cool thing about increasing the demand for shelter pups is that there is no correlation between supply and demand, so eventually we can get to a spot where overpopulation euthanasia is no longer a problem. |
| Sidenote- The stores in Chicago that are selling shelter dogs now are not only selling puppies. They have dogs of all ages there. |
| I think if the stores are selling puppies under the conditions Heather mentions it's much better than what might happen to them. I always worry about the ones that don't get sold, I have heard that some are sold for animal research and that I hate to hear. Asked at a store once when we had gone in to get something and they acted all agast but I thought it was an act, maybe I'm just suspicious by nature. I was really hoping WI would get some stricter puppy mill laws but as far as I know nothing much has changed. I know of one fella that advertizes down around the Milw area that has all kinds of dogs all the time. |
HeatherRWM wrote: I'm assuming that Toronto has similar laws as Chicago and that puppies younger than 8 weeks are not allowed to be sold. I understand your point that puppies shouldn't be in settings like that, but these are puppies coming from shelters so a pet store is definitely a step up! Making a change like this isn't going to be a lightning strike that solves the problem of puppies in shelters and irresponsible breeders pumping out puppies, but I believe that it will lessen the demand for mill pups and increase the demand for shelter pups. The cool thing about increasing the demand for shelter pups is that there is no correlation between supply and demand, so eventually we can get to a spot where overpopulation euthanasia is no longer a problem. Puppies younger than 8 weeks is not the issue. Puppies are the issue. Not an appropriate setting for them - period. They should be protected till they're 12-16 weeks old, and no, they don't belong in an unsanitary shelter, either, I'm with you there. Of course there is a correlation between supply and demand. Why else are shelters in many parts of the US sourcing not only from other areas of the country which don't already have a shortage of high demand dogs (mainly toy breeds and puppies) but bringing them (and god knows what diseases) in from Asia, Mexico, Puerto Rico and now creeping into Central and South America and Eastern Europe? I can't be the only one who sits here scratching my head wondering why the shelter community would turn around and jump on the very same bandwagons they've worked so hard to outlaw?  Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Puppies younger than 8 weeks is not the issue. Puppies are the issue. Not an appropriate setting for them - period. They should be protected till they're 12-16 weeks old, and no, they don't belong in an unsanitary shelter, either, I'm with you there. The problem though is that there continues to be countless litters had in shelters, dropped off on shelters doors, etc. Until we can keep them out of shelters in general, this is a humongous step up and a great interim solution. At least in pet stores they will have clean cages and get handled... not the case in many city shelters. Mad Dog wrote: Of course there is a correlation between supply and demand. Why else are shelters in many parts of the US sourcing not only from other areas of the country which don't already have a shortage of high demand dogs (mainly toy breeds and puppies) but bringing them (and god knows what diseases) in from Asia, Mexico, Puerto Rico and now creeping into Central and South America and Eastern Europe? I admittedly don't know anything about Toronto, so I continue to use Chicago as an example because I am very familiar with our shelter and rescue systems. The municipal shelters do not take from other areas, period. Some of the private shelters do, because in order to keep the adoption programs funded so they can continue to 1. pay to vet all these dogs and 2. adopt out the less adoptable dogs, they need to have a larger population of adoptables. Mad Dog wrote: I can't be the only one who sits here scratching my head wondering why the shelter community would turn around and jump on the very same bandwagons they've worked so hard to outlaw? I don't see the connection at all. We're talking about shelters going to different parts of the country (and sometimes world) to help other shelter dogs/strays, not shelters paying for dogs or breeding dogs or creating supply in any way (unless you're making that accusation, in which case that's an entirely different discussion). The supply is already there, they are just manipulating where the supply goes. I know in many parts of the country the supply for rescue dogs is lower than the demand, but in most of the country the demand is much much lower than the supply. That is both in general, and also in terms of size/breed/age of the dog. |
| My co-breeder was on the board of a local shelter (where I also volunteered) a few years back. Small shelter. Affluent county.We imported puppies like crazy and we made (still do) a small fortune. Shucks, the shelter (I've since moved two counties south) just built a bigger, nicer shelter from the proceeds. They didn't need one, size-wise, because natural volume in DOGS (cats were and are a different matter) was tiny. And while nicer is better - co-breeder rode their behinds on their lack of cleanliness and the then operations manager was and is a good friend of mine, she did try - they most definitely created demand, and not of the short term variety - this goes back a decade. There is absolutely no effort to maybe put a few bucks back into the communites from whence our puppy supply comes (say for subsidized spay/neuter and or educational programs?) and they keep having to go further and further afield to find puppies/other adoptables instead of dealing with issues like working to keep dogs in their homes (basic dog training - though back in the day when my friend was operation's manager a lot of effort was put into that - they fired her). The shelter has become completely dependant on puppy sales. The state's biggest shelters are even worse, while our rural, poorly funded shelters are going largely unsupported in their need for help to place the less adoptables (large mixed breeds, bully mixes, you know the dogs I'm talking about, I know you do because your group does work to place them) All the while these same shelters are screaming about the evils of commerical breeders. Wrong. Not in this state. Our shelters are the state's biggest puppy suppliers and let me say this again: they are completely financially dependant on these puppy sales. There is no incentive to move anywhere towards what you are suggesting. And though Southern IL struggles like rural northern WI communities do, Chicago is very much like SE Wisconsin in this manner. I've lost all respect for shelters and allbreed rescues on both sides of the border. Go to a "puppy mill" auction in the states just to the west of us and you'll find "rescues" from your state and mine in bidding wars with each other. It's an embarrassment. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: All the while these same shelters are screaming about the evils of commerical breeders. Wrong. Not in this state. Our shelters are the state's biggest puppy suppliers and let me say this again: they are completely financially dependant on these puppy sales. There is no incentive to move anywhere towards what you are suggesting. And though Southern IL struggles like rural northern WI communities do, Chicago is very much like SE Wisconsin in this manner. I've lost all respect for shelters and allbreed rescues on both sides of the border. Go to a "puppy mill" auction in the states just to the west of us and you'll find "rescues" from your state and mine in bidding wars with each other. It's an embarrassment. Kristine It makes me sad to hear that you don't have respect for shelters or all breed rescues here because we are working our asses off. The work we do here is tireless and we are not only adopting out dogs, but as a community we have done so much with media attention and education that has been paying off. We know it's been paying off because we have a shelter alliance that keeps statistics and euthanasia as a whole in Chicago is down in a big way. Adoptions are up, the amount of low income spay neuter is up and in some areas the amount of owner turn ins are down (unfortunately not at our big shelter, but we have programs addressing it). All that is happening and we have shelters and rescues here taking dogs from southern illinois. The fact is they have an abundance of highly adoptable dogs that have absolutely no chance where they are, but they get adopted very quickly here. When a shelter (and actually the city shelter and the biggest private shelter here don't even do this at all) takes from these areas it helps them keep their doors open and people moving in and out. All the groups here that I know of that take from different areas do so much work in the community with the funds they are receiving from adoptions and adopters. Chicago does not have huge commercial breeding operations, no. But we do have an abundance of pet stores that sell dogs from these operations. Right now we have pet stores that are selling pit bull puppies, pit bulls mixed with beagles, all sorts of tiny mixes, german shepherd dogs and all sorts of other dogs that we are euthanizing by the thousands in shelters. It makes me sick to my stomach that pet stores are selling pit bull puppies when I literally passed by 15 2-4 month old pit puppies in the shelter on Monday. If we had a law like Toronto does in Chicago I am positive it would make a huge impact on the lives of shelter dogs, and the extreme burden on shelter and rescue workers. As for puppy mills, I also know that there are a lot of rescues here in Chicago that take mill mamas and mill puppy rejects (we've taken 3 mamas and an unneutred Schnauzer that peed everywhere). But we get them from a program with Best Friends and they are transported from Missouri. They do not pay a single dime for any of the dogs. I have heard of some breed specific rescues that do pay for the dogs and I agree it is wrong and something that disturbs me. I know that the big players here in Chicago don't pay for their dogs and I've never heard of an all breed rescue here doing that... and it would surprise me greatly if they did. As for your shelter in Wisconsin that is importing puppies constantly, I see where your concern comes to play but the fact of the matter is they are creating a demand for shelter puppies! The day they start breeding or taking puppies from anywhere other than shelters, is the day I will criticize them.. in the mean time I thank them for creating a demand in the community for a dog that would otherwise die because someone else thought they were trash (which to me is humane education in itself!), whether it be from their county or the county over. I know there are a few bad apple shelters in the chicago area as well, but as a whole we're a community of people that are doing amazing work and it baffles me that anyone would be opposed to a law like this when we live in a country where thousands among thousands of puppies are dying in shelter every year. |
| I'm pretty sure rescues/shelters are afflicted with the same condition every other aspect of humanity is: the human condition and its varying weaknesses and strengths. I'm sure that there are a minority of rescues/shelters which are not as ethical and altruistic as they should be or promote themselves to be. Same with all charities. In a sense, all rescues (and all charities which focus on helping the unfortunate) should have as their ultimate goal their own extinction--the world would be a great place if there were no need for rescues or charities to aid famines in Africa etc. I can imagine a minority of rescues/charities forget that and the goal becomes self-perpetuation. I would expect that most rescues are like Heather's and others on the forum, people who give and give and give because there is a serious need.  I think this is why, as I would be careful about researching and choosing a good breeder, I would research and choose responsible rescues to support. |
Baba wrote: I'm pretty sure rescues/shelters are afflicted with the same condition every other aspect of humanity is: the human condition and its varying weaknesses and strengths. I'm sure that there are a minority of rescues/shelters which are not as ethical and altruistic as they should be or promote themselves to be. Same with all charities. In a sense, all rescues (and all charities which focus on helping the unfortunate) should have as their ultimate goal their own extinction--the world would be a great place if there were no need for rescues or charities to aid famines in Africa etc. I can imagine a minority of rescues/charities forget that and the goal becomes self-perpetuation. I would expect that most rescues are like Heather's and others on the forum, people who give and give and give because there is a serious need. I think this is why, as I would be careful about researching and choosing a good breeder, I would research and choose responsible rescues to support. I agree! And very well said. However, I think there is one very important distinction: (at least in my state) rescues and shelters are very heavily regulated by the government, whereas the overwhelming majority of people that breed for profit have no regulations at all! You could get two random dogs together in Chicago, breed them every single chance you get, sell unvaccinated/unaltered puppies at 2 days old, drop off any puppies you couldn't sell at the shelter, then do it all over again without a single consequence or hoop to jump through. However, if I want to sell a dog that was saved from the shelter, I have an entire web of bureaucracy to untangle first. Weird, right? I also know, speaking on behalf of rescues here in Chicago, we cannot wait until we are no longer needed. Trust me, I'd much rather sit here and have this conversation for the rest of the morning while sipping on some oj and cuddling with my dogs- but I have to go drive a dog to a foster home and then check on two new intakes at the vet (one has giardia one is severely emaciated). I think my husband also can't wait for a weekend uninterrupted by a dog emergency |
Mad Dog wrote: My co-breeder was on the board of a local shelter (where I also volunteered) a few years back. Small shelter. Affluent county.We imported puppies like crazy and we made (still do) a small fortune. Shucks, the shelter (I've since moved two counties south) just built a bigger, nicer shelter from the proceeds. They didn't need one, size-wise, because natural volume in DOGS (cats were and are a different matter) was tiny. And while nicer is better - co-breeder rode their behinds on their lack of cleanliness and the then operations manager was and is a good friend of mine, she did try - they most definitely created demand, and not of the short term variety - this goes back a decade. There is absolutely no effort to maybe put a few bucks back into the communites from whence our puppy supply comes (say for subsidized spay/neuter and or educational programs?) and they keep having to go further and further afield to find puppies/other adoptables instead of dealing with issues like working to keep dogs in their homes (basic dog training - though back in the day when my friend was operation's manager a lot of effort was put into that - they fired her). The shelter has become completely dependant on puppy sales. The state's biggest shelters are even worse, while our rural, poorly funded shelters are going largely unsupported in their need for help to place the less adoptables (large mixed breeds, bully mixes, you know the dogs I'm talking about, I know you do because your group does work to place them) All the while these same shelters are screaming about the evils of commerical breeders. Wrong. Not in this state. Our shelters are the state's biggest puppy suppliers and let me say this again: they are completely financially dependant on these puppy sales. There is no incentive to move anywhere towards what you are suggesting. And though Southern IL struggles like rural northern WI communities do, Chicago is very much like SE Wisconsin in this manner. I've lost all respect for shelters and allbreed rescues on both sides of the border. Go to a "puppy mill" auction in the states just to the west of us and you'll find "rescues" from your state and mine in bidding wars with each other. It's an embarrassment. Kristine I know the shelter you are speaking about. |
Grrrr, a colleague of Kim bought on impulse a Chihuahua puppy from a pet store this week, one of the very few pet stores in Ottawa which still sells puppies. She had already asked Kim a few days before she bought it and Kim read her the riot-act so to speak.  |
Baba wrote: Grrrr, a colleague of Kim bought on impulse a Chihuahua puppy from a pet store this week, one of the very few pet stores in Ottawa which still sells puppies. She had already asked Kim a few days before she bought it and Kim read her the riot-act so to speak. Oh, it's always too late once they have the dog. You'll just make them feel bad, and they'll wholeheartedly resent that. My boss, a bonafide dog person in his own way, got his last two dogs from the last remaining pet store in WI to sell puppies. His mix is OK, his papillion died youngish (to me) - I think he was only 10. I don't lecture him. These are toy breeds, and I doubt he could find one from a reputable breeder, or even a shelter, as a puppy. To lecture him I have to be prepared to give him a sensible alternative, and there really aren't a lot of options. Some times it just is what it is and you're better off biting your tongue. If they were interested in larger breeds I could help them. As it stands even our shelters can't keep up with toy breed demand and our toy breeders are extremely picky - they have small litters as a general rule, so good luck getting one as a regular pet owner. Mind you, I'd happily vouch for him, despite disagreeing with where he acquired his last two dogs. Kristine |
| I didn't lecture her post puppy purchase. She came to me before she bought him and asked me what I thought. I shared what I have learned on this forum, but I did so gently and kindly. A few days later after she told me she bought it anyway (and tried to return it after a few days, but the store refused to take it back) I didn't lecture her at all, I just said the normal stuff when someone gets a puppy, asked to see a picture, asked how much sleep she had had because of potty training, giggled about how much puppies take over your lives, that kind of thing. I am very very careful not to get on a soapbox about this kind of thing. For one, I don't feel I have the experience to preach to anyone. I got Mady from a terrific breeder, I have not had any scary issues with her. But since she asked me directly, I did feel comfortable sharing the stories that I have read here. I wish her the best with her puppy. On a side note, given where he came from, should I be reluctant to have Mady meet him until he has had his more of his shots? I have no idea if he has had any shots at all, really. Or am I being my usual overprotective paranoid self? |
| Mady's properly protected, so I wouldn't worry about that. And, frankly, don't know about north of the border, but we had a pet shop OES puppy purchase go wrong here in WI (or was she purchased in IL, I forget), she ended up, still very young and horribly undersized, surrendered to rescue. The poor puppy - who came with her health records starting with the "breeder", then the pet shop, then the new owner's vet - was so overvaccinated it was sickening. Her immune system is shot  Kristine |
| We had a pet shop started sell puppies & the had to stop due to people protesting outside for months. Our issues in the UK is not the petshops but the puppy farms . Some people are so desprate for a oesd but cannot pay £900 + for a puppy. They see these adverts for puppies for £200 & would say 9 times out of 10 they are from a farm |
Baba wrote: Kristine, I see your point. And it touches on something else I've thought about. I've seen the general response on this forum (and I'm sure on a lot of other respectable forums for other breeds are similiar), to anyone who's come on with questions that even hinted at interest in breeding, have been extremely negative. (and before anyone gets the wrong Idea, I have zero, zero, ZERO interest in ever breeding any dog), someone potentially interested in breeding dogs should not automatically be disavowed of the idea, new, responsible breeders have to come from somewhere, and they should have a place where they can come to to be taught and mentored, as much as warned about the challenges. Just my 2 cents. Eeerrrr! Bit lost as to how you can mentor someone on something you have never done! |
Guest wrote: Baba wrote: Kristine, I see your point. And it touches on something else I've thought about. I've seen the general response on this forum (and I'm sure on a lot of other respectable forums for other breeds are similiar), to anyone who's come on with questions that even hinted at interest in breeding, have been extremely negative. (and before anyone gets the wrong Idea, I have zero, zero, ZERO interest in ever breeding any dog), someone potentially interested in breeding dogs should not automatically be disavowed of the idea, new, responsible breeders have to come from somewhere, and they should have a place where they can come to to be taught and mentored, as much as warned about the challenges. Just my 2 cents. Eeerrrr! Bit lost as to how you can mentor someone on something you have never done! He doesn't mean just get anyone to mentor, but is referring to getting mentoring from an experienced breeder if one were interested in getting into breeding. And he is certainly not suggesting that HE would mentor anyone in this regard, that would just be silly! |
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