Irresponsible Breeders
On Tuesday I got an e-mail from the Children's Librarian saying she'd received a call from a man who saw the photos and wanted to breed his 4 yr. old bitch with my dog! She took their contact info but refused to tell them that Nelson belonged to me. Turned out that I know these people and that they aren't the most responsible of breeders.  Firstly, who would plan a breeding around a newspaper photo where they knew nothing about the dog but that he was an OES and a therapy dog? The same people came to my door a couple years ago and asked about breeding their girl to my boy. They just couldn't fathom why I would turn down such a great opportunity. Just jerking them around a bit I started asking questions about who their breeder was (they had no clue) and if there were health problems in the line and some other things that totally caught them off guard. Still, they argued that it would be a great way to make some money and Nelson was such a nice dog. Hello people? I do rescue and clean up the messes from the results of what people people like you create! I love my dog but he does have issues that I was aware of when I agreed to take him. These people are totally clueless and don't care to learn. Who knows how many puppies they've produced where health, temperament and conformation were of no concern? We have had several people inquire about rescue dogs, wanting intact dogs and admitting that they planned to breed them. The sad thing is, some people are willing to actually assist these people with this craziness. We cringe every time we see an intact OES on Craigslist or other medium and do everything we can to get these dogs into rescue so they are spayed and neutered before being placed. Has anyone else been approached about breeding their dogs to an irresponsible breeder? We recently had to put down a young dog due to his unpredictable, aggressive behavior. I held that boy as he went to the Bridge and cursed the moneygrubbers that created his situation, too. So sad. |
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| My SIL in California, with reasons I still cannot fathom, leaves her male intact. (Don't get me started.) While at the groomer with Murphy, a woman approached her with the same idea. Hey, I've got a female, and you have a male...let's have puppies! Crazy. Laurie and Oscar |
I've never been approached quite in that way. But we often get the question about whether we will breed Mady.  |
Since we have a male and a female, we always seem to get the comment "Oh, you must breed them!"  They're always surprised when I say that we have never had any intention of breeding. |
I was at a therapy dog event once and a man noticed how much attention Guinness was getting He asked me what breed he was. I told him and he said" I would like to get a couple and breed them." I almost fainted He then asked me how much I paid for Guinness I said $5,000 and that they were rare and you could not get them in the USA they had to be imported  He bred pit bull's. Maybe I should have told him he was a rare long haired hungarian pit!!!!! |
| While we worked in the front yard, a truck rolled up, a guy jumped out and pointed to his Pyr bitch tied in the back of the pick up. "I want to breed my dog to your dog, right now." When Paul saw the steam coming out of my ears he thought it better he talk to the guy. Sorry all our dogs are neutered, male and female. The guy was flabergasted, "Think of the money you could be making!" Paul explained they were all rescues, dogs discarded by their owners and had to be neutered to keep them from being irresponsibly breed making more throw away puppies. The guy was pissed, jumped back into his truck and drove off. |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Firstly, who would plan a breeding around a newspaper photo where they knew nothing about the dog but that he was an OES and a therapy dog? Likely the same people who search Craigslist and other ads trying to find inexpensive intact bitches and dogs... Maggie McGee IV wrote: We cringe every time we see an intact OES on Craigslist or other medium and do everything we can to get these dogs into rescue so they are spayed and neutered before being placed. Yes, you are right on it when you hear about them... one of the fastest I know to respond.  |
| Honestly? Never been approached. I think it happens a lot less frequently than most of us would like to think. But when it does happen I can see how it would make your jaw drop. Local rescue coordinator has been approached by someone looking for a cheap "breeding" dog a couple of times. Once she stops laughing she explains what rescue is. I'm not sure why people would think rescue would be the place to go to find dogs to breed but that seems to be the trend ? Mind you, there is nothing irresponsible about having an intact dog. To the contrary, with boys especially, it's healthier. It's what you let them do with their intactness that defines responsible. As it stands I do my darndest to keep my puppies out of pet homes. Most normal pet owners are not out to make a quick buck. Most are like most people here, pretty darn responsible. So responsible they can't get the poor dog's gonads removed fast enough  Even if it's not the healthliest approach. Better they get a nice rescue dog so they can feel appropriately responsible.Kristine |
| I've been approached about wheter my dogs are "in tact" or not and as they are, I say yes, they are "fixed"...People are greedy little boggers not caring what they have to do to make a few bucks at anyone and ane expense...Gets me sick... |
Nobody asks us Georgie and Finn sound like two boys!  |
| Nelson isn't neutered and I don't make excuses for that. I showed him for awhile and after that there was just no reason to put him under to do the surgery. He doesn't exhibit any negative behaviors that people tend to associate with an intact dog and he's never out of my control so no worries there. Old English Sheepdogs aren't all that common around here so I wonder who else these people may have approached about such an arrangement?  Breeding is a crapshoot as it is, even with the most thorough pedigree research, careful planning and heath testing there are no guarantees. It just boggles my mind that someone as reasonably intelligent as these people who have owned OES for many years would "plan" a litter this way. |
Oh no....  On a side note: Nelson isn't neutered??? He's sooooooo calm and gentle!!!!!! I have been worrying about keeping Schubert intact - Our vet told us that testosterone derived hormonal behaviors will not go away with training and once the puppy develops such behavioral issues it will not disappear even if you neuter him... I haven't even thought of the potential "Let's breed our dog" people I may run into...... from whom I'll run away in horror!  |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: It just boggles my mind that someone as reasonably intelligent as these people who have owned OES for many years would "plan" a litter this way. Reasonably intelligent? maybe. But certainly not educated about proper breeding! I wish there was a pamphlet or something about the catastrophe of unhealthy breeding practices to mail it to ppl with dogs...... |
OESrocks wrote: Maggie McGee IV wrote: It just boggles my mind that someone as reasonably intelligent as these people who have owned OES for many years would "plan" a litter this way. Reasonably intelligent? maybe. But certainly not educated about proper breeding! I wish there was a pamphlet or something about the catastrophe of unhealthy breeding practices to mail it to ppl with dogs...... The sad part is that some people just do not care if they have issues down the line, half the time people can't get back in touch with the original breeder  |
| I've told this before but will tell again. Randy and I were at a flea market and were approached and asked if we wanted to breed our dogs to his mom's female. Sorry they are neutered. He then asked if we knew any intact males he could breed to his mom's dog. Randy actually thought about it but I just said no and walked away. |
OESrocks wrote: Oh no.... On a side note: Nelson isn't neutered??? He's sooooooo calm and gentle!!!!!! I have been worrying about keeping Schubert intact - Our vet told us that testosterone derived hormonal behaviors will not go away with training and once the puppy develops such behavioral issues it will not disappear even if you neuter him... I haven't even thought of the potential "Let's breed our dog" people I may run into...... from whom I'll run away in horror! Nope, not neutered. Nelson was born extremely calm and gentle. Sometimes a little too calm. As far as what your vet told you, most vets are big proponents of spay and neuter and prefer to do it as young as possible. For most clients that's probably a very good thing because the lure of producing a litter may be very tempting to them. As far as Schubert, If you're going to show him in conformation he has to be intact. I wouldn't worry about behavioral issues, you may give him a complex. Besides, anyone asking you about breeding Schubert will have to get past Madeline first!   |
Mad Dog wrote: Mind you, there is nothing irresponsible about having an intact dog. To the contrary, with boys especially, it's healthier. It's what you let them do with their intactness that defines responsible. As it stands I do my darndest to keep my puppies out of pet homes. Most normal pet owners are not out to make a quick buck. Most are like most people here, pretty darn responsible. So responsible they can't get the poor dog's gonads removed fast enough Even if it's not the healthliest approach. Better they get a nice rescue dog so they can feel appropriately responsible.Kristine Gonads, really? LMAO,,,,I thought my friend at work was the only one to use that word. Still laughing. |
| My boys aren't neutered. As Nita said, they were born laid back & easy-going. I show alot & breed sparingly. Even after 14 years of mentoring I'd still never consider breeding without consulting my mentor. Yes, I've been approached several times. By far the best one was a man who lived about 45 minutes north of me. He called wanting to breed his bitch to Isaac. Said he got my name from some people up in that area & that I had a really nice male (yes I did, thank you). When he took a breath I asked how old his grl was. 3 years old (Ok, possibility here). What type of hip rating does she have & what kind of rating did you get on her eye Cerf? What? Oh my vet says those tests are just a way for you people to ask for more money . I was ready to hang up but then he said "Wait aminute! Let's say I'd go get these tests done. How much would you charge me for stud service then?" First time in my life that I was ever ready with a quick answer (and of course I upped the price). "$4000.00 & before you say anything, he has OFA excellent hips, his AKC Championship & his temperment is to die for not to mention the rest of his conformation". His next statement was "Would you consider taking a puppy in lieu of the stud fee?" One of the few times in my life I ever hung up on someone. |
| Chewie's another of those boys with his gonads. (just had to use it in a sentence ) He's sweet, easy to live with, shows no crazy (besides normal OES crazy) behaviors, and is quite well behaved most of the time. Very responsive, easy to train, and quite successful at pretty much every sport or activity we have ever tried. I do get asked if we are/have ever, bred him, but I don't have random OES around here...so I've never got asked to pimp my dog.  I have got asked when we're out with LeAnne and Martha if we will breed them, but the response "it's his sister" has so far stopped that discussion.  |
got sheep wrote: I have got asked when we're out with LeAnne and Martha if we will breed them, but the response "it's his sister" has so far stopped that discussion. Well, given some of the rednecks in your area (and mine) I'm surprised that made an impression... Even if you ever were approached to pimp your dog you can always fall back on the excuse that you enjoy life and would like to continue to be in the realm of the living which wouldn't last long if any of his breeders/co-owners found out he'd been sneaking around. That happens to be the reason I gave to the vets (ex-vets) I took his mother to for her 1st rabies vaccination when I didn't think they were going to let me out the door without scheduling her spay surgery  I volunteered to give them Marnie's number and let her explain my funeral arrangements to them if I agreed to their demands. That was the end of that conversation. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: got sheep wrote: I have got asked when we're out with LeAnne and Martha if we will breed them, but the response "it's his sister" has so far stopped that discussion. Well, given some of the rednecks in your area (and mine) I'm surprised that made an impression... Even if you ever were approached to pimp your dog you can always fall back on the excuse that you enjoy life and would like to continue to be in the realm of the living which wouldn't last long if any of his breeders/co-owners found out he'd been sneaking around. That happens to be the reason I gave to the vets (ex-vets) I took his mother to for her 1st rabies vaccination when I didn't think they were going to let me out the door without scheduling her spay surgery I volunteered to give them Marnie's number and let her explain my funeral arrangements to them if I agreed to their demands. That was the end of that conversation. Kristine Rednecks - I know...that's why I qualified that with"so far"...it's amazing what idiots there are out there. I need to be in a certain frame of mind to read the Craigslist animal ads..... And the funeral - I believe I already used a form of that when Troy (vet) with a straight face said "I need to shave that area" at a vet visit!!  |
| We altered Finn at 18mos to give him his growth time but, we do alter all of ours since we have so many rescues in and out! As for all the little boys here now...  let those gonads drop!(yes, they are rescues) We don't have many that have and I hate that thought... Guess I am getting off subject, AGAIN  |
Donner's Mom wrote: We altered Finn at 18mos to give him his growth time but, we do alter all of ours since we have so many rescues in and out! As for all the little boys here now... let those gonads drop!(yes, they are rescues) We don't have many that have and I hate that thought... Guess I am getting off subject, AGAIN Yeow. Well right there you have a very good health reason to neuter - undescended. Fingers crossed. What are they - ten weeks now? Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Donner's Mom wrote: We altered Finn at 18mos to give him his growth time but, we do alter all of ours since we have so many rescues in and out! As for all the little boys here now... let those gonads drop!(yes, they are rescues) We don't have many that have and I hate that thought... Guess I am getting off subject, AGAIN Yeow. Well right there you have a very good health reason to neuter - undescended. Fingers crossed. What are they - ten weeks now? Kristine They are 10 weeks and full of pee!!!!!!! Two of them already lift legs How does that happen in a baby?? I am starting to feel a little gonads coming down but, They are into the vet tomorrow so, we will get a little more info Speaking of irresponsible breeding and not having info on the pups...Jaci was nice enough to ask Dr. Dodds how to handle the vaccine schedule since we were told they were vaccinated but, have no proof! Of course Dr Dodds responded with wonderful info so we know the protocol to take on the pups!  I am so disapointed in this situation for the babies but, they will be fine! The puppy breath is just overwhelming |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Nope, not neutered. Nelson was born extremely calm and gentle. Sometimes a little too calm. As far as what your vet told you, most vets are big proponents of spay and neuter and prefer to do it as young as possible. For most clients that's probably a very good thing because the lure of producing a litter may be very tempting to them. I find that we run into "not neutered" prejudice more than anything else. "Oh my God, why isn't he neutered? Doesn't he mark all over the house? Does he bite? He must be aggressive." Ugh, it's really annoying. Heaven forbid your dog has any quirks at all because you know what some idiot's answer to that will be: "Oh, it's because he's not neutered." I seriously don't even take my dogs out until after dark anymore. I just can't listen to the stupid talk. It's amazing to me how uninformed (yet, think they're VERY informed) people are and I just don't have the energy to combat it. |
| Oh I just wanted to pipe in about un-neutered dogs. When we had Virginia and Morgan, Virginia went into heat, our very first experience with that. It was hardly an issue, no big deal at all. |
| I just have to say I really don't think the majority of people with unneutered dogs are as responsible as we would like to believe. While I do understand the people here who have intact dogs are - I don't think that is the norm by any stretch. Just as I would say I don't think our general opinion (may I speak for the majority here? )of "responsible breeding" is the norm. I still think there are many more people out there who would argue rather than agree about what it means to be a reputable breeder. Aside from this group and the great people here I have yet to talk to anyone - ANYONE -who understands let alone agrees with my stance on the breeding issue. (and I don't consider myself radical in that opinion) And while I am aware of many in this group who have intact dogs - and I DO NOT disagree with that choice- I think an awful lot of people who have intact pets SHOULD NOT. The majority simply are not responsible dog owners and many many of them will unintentionally contribute to the unwanted pet population. Don't even get me started on the ones who are intentionally doing it... Shellie |
Shellie wrote: The majority simply are not responsible dog owners and many many of them will unintentionally contribute to the unwanted pet population. Don't even get me started on the ones who are intentionally doing it... Shellie I must just hang out with a better class of dog owners then , because a majority of the dogs I know are intact, and no adding to the unwanted dog population. Go figure. Frankly, the majority of dog owners I run into are very responsible, even among pet owners. Then again, I run into most of them through dog training activities and most people who bother to train their dogs, do therapy work with their dogs etc etc aren't exactly casual dog owners. That said, I'm not sure who the great unwashed majority of casual pet owners who can't be trusted are. To the contrary, I'd argue that a minority of dog owners are very irresponsible - you could say the same about parents, or anything else for that matter - and the rest of you are getting a bad rep because of them. I'd be pretty insulted if it was me. Kristine |
| With my first OES, Merlin, I was genuinely (naively) considering showing him. He had a lot of champions on both sides, he was beautiful and as far as I could tell, of very good conformation (I had only books to guide me) and truthfully, he seemed to have the temperament for it: he loved to perform for an audience. While I was mulling it over (I had ZERO idea how to start--I told you I was naive and there were no other OES in my area and no internet!), I kept getting approached by strangers, who admired my dog and thought it would be grand to breed him to their unfixed female of whatever or no breed at all. That was when I decided if I wasn't going to show him, I'd get him fixed, and I did. I really wasn't so confident that someone might not steal him away for a few hours of forbidden romance. |
| You clearly run with a different group of people, but I would have expected that. You have much more contact with people involved with dog related activities. I do not. I have more contact with the "other" sort. Humane society, rescue, puppy mill, hey is that a labradoodle people. The kind that pull up along side me while I'm walking the dog to ask me "is that a girl and can I have a puppy" kind of people. I was, at one time interested in showing and the whole scene but it wasn't to be. Probably for the better although it breaks my heart. Is it obvious that I have very little faith in the masses? This is what my life experience has taught me. (and for the record I also believe many parents shouldn't be- but maybe that is a situational thing too.) Clearly I have been misunderstood in this group repeatedly over the last couple weeks. I have been coming to this forum for 8 years, DAILY. Maybe it's time for a break. |
Shellie wrote: I have more contact with the "other" sort. Humane society, rescue, puppy mill, hey is that a labradoodle people. The kind that pull up along side me while I'm walking the dog to ask me "is that a girl and can I have a puppy" kind of people. I would agree that most people do not have the same standards/intentions for breeding a dog as some may think. I don't run in dog-show circles and people I met through the forum and during my search for Schubert was my first look on the elite show breeders. While trying to socialize schubert, I met a lot of strangers and was pleasantly surprised by the knowledge people had about dogs in general. Occasionally, a person would ask if he was an OES puppy and certainly he/she had a sheepie before. But when it came to how to properly breed a dog for the show ring/temperament and health/overall enhancement of the breed, people were oblivious to how much careful screening/planning is required. I actually enjoy telling people why Schubert was so expensive and what kind of testing his breeder did and why I chose to pay this much after losing several dogs with health issues. Now this is all before we are enrolled in training and going to kennel club events etc. I'm hoping that eventually we will also be surrounded by the right people. |
Shellie wrote: Clearly I have been misunderstood in this group repeatedly over the last couple weeks. I have been coming to this forum for 8 years, DAILY. Maybe it's time for a break. Ah, honey, I'm "misunderstood" all the time. Doesn't bother me one iota. We both have our own experiences to draw from. Doesn't make either of us wrong. I was "raised" in dogs through rescue. I believed many of the things you do. I've spent years learning differently, and the last couple of months in particular talking to people who are looking for a pet OES puppy. I'm not good with pet owners, I admit that freely. But even though I really don't want any of my dogs in a pet home because it's too much responsibility (these days, to be a breeder, you basically have to be able to live up to standards anyone short of God himself - ducking lightening bolts here - would struggle to live up to), I have nonetheless been mighty impressed with the caliber of pet owners out there. Again, maybe it's not a fair comparison to what's out there so to speak, but these people educate themselves and ask good questions and I have no doubt they are responsible owners. I'm referring people left and right to breeders I trust (Stacey, added you to my list), and I do not do that lightly. Also, I hate to see people painted with broad strokes. And I do meet the other kind, if you will. But they are the minority. Thank god. Kristine |
| Sometime in the early 90's, Joan and I took Jake to Provincetown. I'm not sure how long we had been owned by him at that point. We were walking down a sidewalk and came upon a couple of guys and their brown spaniel. All of a sudden, Jake sort of swatted at the spaniel, spun her around and mounted her, all in one motion. He was on a lead but had been quite calmly greeting her. We pulled him off of her right away confused and apologizing for his behavior. It wasn't until years later we found out that Jake was a cryptorchid... But since then I have wondered how long it takes for a pair of willing participants to finish that deed. I've never seen it in person, but I know the needs to be or should be or could be something called a "tie", and I've seen pics of dogs cheek to cheek apparently stuck that way. At the moment I think I agree with Shellie on this, that were super intelligent and responsible dog owners here but I think we're in the minority relative to the rest of the dog owning public. |
| I think that there is much diversity in the dog owner world. I am a 'pet' owner, but I think that I take good care of my dog. I bought my dog from a reputable breeder not so that I could show her but so that I could feel confident that she came from healthy parents and had been well cared for and socialized. Have I made mistakes? Of course, but I try hard to learn and improve and to seek guidance when I can. I bought my house from a whippet breeder who referred to 'pet' owners in such scathing terms it was a bit shocking. I was confused by this then and I still find it confusing now that the 'pet' aspect is seen as negative. As to irresponsible people, I have seen intact males, like Chewie, for example, who are model citizens, partly because of his breeding and his nature and partly because of the time and effort Dawn puts into him. At my dog park, I have seen scary un-neutered males whose owners have no control over their dogs. I live in an urban area and in an odd area with a mix of very low income and middle class income, so I know that some of the dogs are not fixed due to finances, or perhaps due to education. But I have also seen financially well off people, with good educations, raise horrible horrible dogs. Last night a woman brought a six week old shitzu puppy to the park to play with the big dogs. It was horrifying to see. We all tried to gently educate her as to why this is not a good idea. I suspect she is a backyard breeder. All this to say that the world is full of diversity and I am always happy that this diversity of experience is reflected in this forum. That is how I learn! I learn from the show people even though I don't show. I learn and enjoy Chewie's carting experience, even though I don't do that. I learn from the rescue folks stories, even if I don't know if I would ever have the courage and experience to do rescue. I just hope that people never shy away from sharing this diversity of experience and knowledge. |
Ron wrote: At the moment I think I agree with Shellie on this, that were super intelligent and responsible dog owners here but I think we're in the minority relative to the rest of the dog owning public. And I think we flatter ourselves that we are somehow some rare, enlightened group Go to thousands of different dog lists and you'll hear the exact same chatter you hear here. A majority of dog owners out there are pretty educated, responsible human beings. Because we've relied heavily on spaying and neutering (the majority of American dogs are desexed - something like 70 % plus as I recall, more in some areas, less in others - in your area of the country running into an intact dog would probably be a real rarity) many of us understandably have no real understanding of canine reproductive behavior and so on, and that's fine - if people in general would rather remove the offending organs so as to not have to think about these things, I'm certainly good with that, but it should be a choice, and people who choose not to should not be assumed to be too stupid to live based on that choice alone. We know there are definite health benefits to leaving a male intact if the situation permits, and reasons also for letting our girls mature, at least, before we alter them. Personally, I admire the people who will go the extra step for their dog's sake and it irks me to no end when they are subjected to verbal harrassment and undue pressure to conform to something that is not necessarily in the best interest of their dog. And to answer your question, it takes longer than you think. What Jake did was a dominance move, retained testicle or not, and he's lucky the spaniel didn't rip his face off. My, yes, neutered male does this to his sisters on an almost daily basis and I wish they would rip his face off and teach him some manners once and for all. Fortunately he isn't stupid enough to try this on some female he doesn't know, or even any of his elders and betters. And he leaves my rescue bitch alone because he tried it once and she made it clear she would remove body parts if he ever tried it again (she is spayed, of course) For the real thing to happen there is a pretty small window of opportunity when the bitch is actually fertile, we're talking a matter of days within her season - because first she has to ovulate. This is why breeders increasingly use progesterone testing to figure out when this is (rarely is the male at hand, but rather "on call" if you will.) There is a courtship "dance" while the male figures out if the female is receptive. Some sniffing, some play bowing, some wiggling, some posturing, maybe, it varies, and after that the male will (one hopes) try to mount the bitch. At this point you can still pull the male off if this was not what you intended to happen, eh? Experienced breeders will scream at you not to do this, you might bruise his fragile ego and make him think he's not permitted to do this, especially with an inexperienced dog, instead you should whisk the bitch away, OK, whatever.  Frankly, I take both of my intact younger bitches to agility class while they are in season, and there are intact males in both of their classes, I have run one of my girls the day after she ovulated (we were testing, so happened to know) so in prime season, with an intact Terv in the class and you wouldn't have known by her behavior or his that she was even in season. They ignored each other completely. I've also placed her sister in a long down next to a wonderfully sweet Aussie while she was in season and his young owner and I were walking a course and I happened to notice said Aussie whining and making googoo eyes at her so I asked if he was intact, he was, so we moved them further apart just to be on the safe side. Now, I'll grant you all of these dogs have some training on them. That does make a difference. Generally speaking making an oops litter takes a fairly high degree of obliviousness or just regularly letting your dog roam. I have three intact bitches who regularly come into season (they pull each other in so they tend to be in season at the same time), and a friend's girl , related, who comes to stay with me during that time (she also is on the same schedule more or less) because my friend has the bitch's intact father and does not trust her husband not to be oblivious, and yet I have never, ever had a single, loose dog come to visit us. Another way dog ownership has improved is people actually adhering to leash laws. That's the biggie, really. I'm not saying oblivious, uncaring dog owners don't exist, but they are not the majority. Yet we talk them up and make it sound like idiots abound and the backlash is actually on us. For all the billions we spend on our dogs this is not a very dog friendly country for the most part, is it? Why? Because the perception is that the majority of dog owners are a horrible bunch of irresponsible louts. I don't think so. Kristine |
Mady wrote: I think that there is much diversity in the dog owner world. I am a 'pet' owner, but I think that I take good care of my dog. I bought my dog from a reputable breeder not so that I could show her but so that I could feel confident that she came from healthy parents and had been well cared for and socialized. Have I made mistakes? Of course, but I try hard to learn and improve and to seek guidance when I can. I bought my house from a whippet breeder who referred to 'pet' owners in such scathing terms it was a bit shocking. I was confused by this then and I still find it confusing now that the 'pet' aspect is seen as negative. Actually, you're the model home most breeders dream about for their puppies, and I'm sure Amber knows it. Dawn too. I think she'd had Chewie maybe 2 years, not that I didn't know I was looking at a fabulous home long before that, when I told her "if you ever want another OES puppy, I'll give you one" Frankly, I feel like I should be paying HER. The frustration some breeders have (and thankfully many breeders are more temperamentally sound in this area than I, for instance <vbg> But I try to at least be cognizant of my shortcomings) is that you put your heart and soul into a litter, then you have to make difficult choices as to where they go, and you spend the rest of their lives worrying about them. You risk well-intentioned, sweet, nice pet owners who want to do the right thing, but who every day are deluged by information you know to be not in YOUR DOG'S best interest (it's always your dog. Even when it's their dog, it's still ultimately your dog. Some pet owners don't want the dog's breeder breathing down their neck and I can understand that). What you hope for is owners who will listen to your experiences and the reasons for why you feel and do the things you do, who will stay in touch - regularly! - who will choose their vet wisely, and who will train their dog - god, that is so key to this breed, well, all dogs really. If they actually bother to do things with their dog.... And that doesn't mean there aren't thousands and thousands, if not millions of great homes out there. But somehow it's different when it's YOUR puppy. I admit I do not like breeding for this very reason. If I knew all of my puppies could go to, say, performance homes, I would sleep a lot better at night. Other breeders are not necessarily so warped. Maybe it's my background in rescue that makes me neurotic in this way, I don't know. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Mady wrote: I think that there is much diversity in the dog owner world. I am a 'pet' owner, but I think that I take good care of my dog. I bought my dog from a reputable breeder not so that I could show her but so that I could feel confident that she came from healthy parents and had been well cared for and socialized. Have I made mistakes? Of course, but I try hard to learn and improve and to seek guidance when I can. I bought my house from a whippet breeder who referred to 'pet' owners in such scathing terms it was a bit shocking. I was confused by this then and I still find it confusing now that the 'pet' aspect is seen as negative. Actually, you're the model home most breeders dream about for their puppies, and I'm sure Amber knows it. Dawn too. I think she'd had Chewie maybe 2 years, not that I didn't know I was looking at a fabulous home long before that, when I told her "if you ever want another OES puppy, I'll give you one" Frankly, I feel like I should be paying HER. I agree - Kim and David ARE great dog parents. And you deserve a pat on the back, especially as you are new 1st time dog owners. This isn't the easiest breed to take on as a newbie. Although I think they are amazing, and really don't see why more people don't have them at the top of their list ...but that's OK, we will savor their greatness! And Kristine...Pay me??? - cool!!  The frustration some breeders have (and thankfully many breeders are more temperamentally sound in this area than I, for instance <vbg> But I try to at least be cognizant of my shortcomings) is that you put your heart and soul into a litter, then you have to make difficult choices as to where they go, and you spend the rest of their lives worrying about them. You risk well-intentioned, sweet, nice pet owners who want to do the right thing, but who every day are deluged by information you know to be not in YOUR DOG'S best interest (it's always your dog. Even when it's their dog, it's still ultimately your dog. Some pet owners don't want the dog's breeder breathing down their neck and I can understand that). What you hope for is owners who will listen to your experiences and the reasons for why you feel and do the things you do, who will stay in touch - regularly! - who will choose their vet wisely, and who will train their dog - god, that is so key to this breed, well, all dogs really. If they actually bother to do things with their dog.... And that doesn't mean there aren't thousands and thousands, if not millions of great homes out there. But somehow it's different when it's YOUR puppy. I admit I do not like breeding for this very reason. If I knew all of my puppies could go to, say, performance homes, I would sleep a lot better at night. Other breeders are not necessarily so warped. Maybe it's my background in rescue that makes me neurotic in this way, I don't know. Kristine Breeding is a risk - and the puppies are like an extension of your family. Growing up with our Brittanys, and having the occasional litters, I got to see it as a normal part of childhood. (OK, my childhood was most NOT normal - going to dog events all the time - but I thought it was!!) I had perfect role models in my parents. Litters were planned, and specific dogs bred for specific reasons, always trying to improve and get the best dog possible. My parents were 1st generation dog people, my dad was never allowed to have a dog, and my mom had farm dogs. But they jumped in with total commitment. They were active in the MN Brittany club, several all breed clubs in the area, and also very active in the National breed club. So to me, this was a "normal" life Puppy people were screened, and those who were deemed OK were paired with the puppy who would do best for them. We had hunt training and fun trials at our farm all the time, so puppy people had great support and follow-up. Some went as pets, but most were going to homes where they would be a hunting dog and family member. The best were kept and some went to field trial homes around the country. As a teen, one of my jobs was to go through the St Paul paper and call & screen all the Brittany ads....yep, sneaky, and I loved it. I asked pedigrees, backgrounds, all that stuff. Most people were shocked this kid was calling and asking all these technical questions! But it was a good way to keep tabs on what was out there in the MN/WI area. (pre computer era, mind you!) And our dogs were almost all intact as well - females in heat couldn't trial, but that was worked around. Males were intact, but they weren't an issue - all were obedience trained and had some conformation work (Brittanys are AKC's most dual titled breed), so they weren't just wild crazy hunting dogs. They had jobs and they had focus.  |
Mad Dog wrote: You risk well-intentioned, sweet, nice pet owners who want to do the right thing, but who every day are deluged by information you know to be not in YOUR DOG'S best interest (it's always your dog. Even when it's their dog, it's still ultimately your dog. Some pet owners don't want the dog's breeder breathing down their neck and I can understand that). I understand your point here. One of our biggest regrets is not listening to Amber regarding when to spay Mady. The vet scared us to death about waiting-big blood vessels, higher risk, longer under anesthetic etc. if we waited 'too long'. Plus, being inexperienced, we had visions of a dog in heat being akin to living a nightmare. It is the same thing with food and vaccinations, my goodness there is so much competing information out there it is difficult to make a sound decision. Now that Mady is nearly two, I confess that if I have an issue or question regarding her well-being my first phone call is not to the vet, it is to Amber (if breeders were paid by the hour that they actually put into a dog, they would all be millionaires). We have learned that while vet's know dogs, Amber knows HER dogs (obviously if it were something like a broken leg that required immediate attention, we would whisk her off to the vet). I am always surprised when I meet another sheepie and the owner doesn't remember who the breeder was. 'Don't you call them every week??' |
Mady wrote: [the owner doesn't remember who the breeder was. 'Don't you call them every week??' I never even think about these people calling them every week. What I can't believe is that they can't remember the name of the person they shelled out over a thousand dollars to for their dog!!!!!! Or even several hundred dollars!!!!! Yet they can tell you what store they purchased that cute little skirt at or those neat little sandals from |
Shellie wrote: You clearly run with a different group of people, but I would have expected that. You have much more contact with people involved with dog related activities. I do not. I have more contact with the "other" sort. Humane society, rescue, puppy mill, hey is that a labradoodle people. The kind that pull up along side me while I'm walking the dog to ask me "is that a girl and can I have a puppy" kind of people. I was, at one time interested in showing and the whole scene but it wasn't to be. Probably for the better although it breaks my heart. Is it obvious that I have very little faith in the masses? This is what my life experience has taught me. (and for the record I also believe many parents shouldn't be- but maybe that is a situational thing too.) Clearly I have been misunderstood in this group repeatedly over the last couple weeks. I have been coming to this forum for 8 years, DAILY. Maybe it's time for a break. So many times I've composed posts lately only to delete them. Don't leave Shellie... you'll just be like me and eventually come back. No one even realized I was gone. I think it's fair to say that so much depends on who makes up our social circle, who our neighbors are and what we choose to involve ourselves in. Also any frustrations we've had to endure and whether we've chosen to try to make a difference in these situations. Throw in too where we live, the impact of irresponsible behaviors, the way society and the law view dogs in that area. I can see how some areas are likely to be much better or much worse than others. Just my next door neighbors over the years who helped to form a few of my opinions... I was told this summer the ol' girl next door had been hit by a car right out front (thank you sweet Jesus that I missed it ). I was told it wasn't quick. They got their dog when we got Maggie. They have another dog and this one too has been in the road and in other people's yards on occasion including ours. Hoping history doesn't repeat itself. People behind us had two dogs that were loose and wouldn't come to me... we fretted for hours trying to notify the neighbors. The next morning Jim and the neighbor found the Boxer puppy dead under a bush. I found a big boy running loose, looked to be part bully breed... a strong boy. I tried to find his owner by walking him up and down the street... we finally loaded him up in the back of the car to take him to the humane society's holding pens. As we left the drive, the neighbor diagonal from us was returning home. Jim backed up and asked if they knew who he belonged to... he was theirs. They have a tiny Chihuahua-type dog that was running in the neighbor's yards... very skittish. Knocked on the door to let them know he/she was loose... the little one headed in the direction of the next street which can be very busy and scared me to death. He/she was loose again the other day. The neighbor on the corner had a beautiful dog... he was loose on occasion too. Challenged Jim one time in our driveway. The people living there before her had dogs that would break through their invisible fencing. The guy behind us told us his beautiful dog had her hind legs cut off by a front end loader because she had been loose in the yard while operating heavy equipment. Also had a bully-mix that would get out on occasion that was later hit by a car and killed. A guy staying there had two dogs that would climb out of the 6 foot kennel they were in, go around the block and come to our house. I would boost them back over the fence into their own yard. The man was on the roof one time (don't even ask) and said he was going to take them out and shoot them. Then one day they were gone... no idea where they ended up. This was the same neighbor that was throwing dog poop over the fence into our yard. No idea whether any of these dogs were intact or not but it's surely one way unplanned litters happen. Our experiences help form our opinions. On top of that, we each have different priorities, abilities and limits. To spay or neuter is a personal choice... neither camp should shun the other based on their choice. But we need to make educated choices so we need to be open to information shared. I grew up with intact males and my parents were responsible owners... yet all my dogs are spayed/neutered. However I would have kept Bumble intact and shown him had we not found out at 11 weeks that he was cryptorchid. It was too late to choose another. We need intact dogs to have future OESs... now there's a revelation. Some people are so anti-breeder that they forget that without breeders, there wouldn't be any of the purebred OESs they're actively seeking... |
| Sorry folks. Did not mean to stir anything up. My comment about my SIL having an intact male was more a comment about my SIL's inability to make decisions, not about responsible people who have intact dogs, whether they show or not. To neuter or not is a personal decision. As long as folks are educated about the health risks on both sides, and are responsible about avoiding unplanned litters, then they should make their own decision accordingly. I do not show, or compete, or rescue, so my experience comes only from my daily interactions with other average pet owners. I have family members, friends, and acquaintances who are responsible for their pets. And then I know a few who, IMHO, really shouldn't have a dog. A couple of examples. A family member whose dog (an active hunting breed) spent most of his life in a crate as he had severe temperament issues and no one had time or inclination to train him. Friends who are now ready to get rid of their third dog in five years. Friends who didn't know their inside, family dog was missing for more than a day - the police had picked her up the day before they noticed she was gone. An acquaintance that let her pack of small dogs roam the neighborhood, (I brought them home a number of times) yet was "devastated" and "heartbroken" when one got run over by a car. I could go on. I think there are a lot of irresponsible people out there, or we wouldn't have such a huge need for rescue. Something to think about. Thursday, my vet was running late as a surgery ran long. Here's why. An eight year old small breed had come in a couple of weeks ago with a huge, ulcerated mammary tumor. My vet successfully removed the tumor, but noticed that there were growths in all of the remaining mammary glands. They scheduled a return visit for more surgery on Thursday, so that the other tumors could be removed. When they brought her in two days ago, the owners mentioned that the dog hadn't eaten for two days, and had a green, smelly discharge from her genital area. Turns out, it was pyometra. My vet was in surgery for 2 & 1/2 hours. (The dog's uterus was bigger than her head.) Is this situation uncommon? Yes. Could this entire situation have been prevented by neutering? Yes. Is this situation uncommon because so many people neuter? Who knows? Both our OES were "pet quality" from a show breeder. Somehow, I think Oscar's breeder is pretty happy that he ended up with us. (Where is the "pat yourself on the back" emoticon?)Laurie and Oscar |
| Jaci, great post. Laurie and Oscar |
| If you had posted first, I wouldn't have taken time to! For many of us on OES.org, our dogs are family or pretty darn near anyway. But there are others that view dogs as something different and those dogs don't have a high position in the owner's personal list of priorities. Some still do fine... others suffer because of it. Sadly, we've seen many of the same things, Laurie. Oscar's Mom wrote: When they brought her in two days ago, the owners mentioned that the dog hadn't eaten for two days, and had a green, smelly discharge from her genital area. Turns out, it was pyometra. My vet was in surgery for 2 & 1/2 hours. (The dog's uterus was bigger than her head.) You and I try to focus on prevention or fixing something before it becomes more significant. It's hard to believe that something like what you described above was allowed to go on for a couple of days. But it also goes back to the level of knowledge someone has and how observant or connected they are with their dog. Oscar's Mom wrote: Both our OES were "pet quality" from a show breeder. Somehow, I think Oscar's breeder is pretty happy that he ended up with us. (Where is the "pat yourself on the back" emoticon?)There is this one though... Oscar's very fortunate.  |
| Thanks, Jaci! Right back at ya'! Horrifying to think that this poor dog suffered for two days with pyometra. They're lucky she's still alive. I'm a big believer in an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure. The next time I have a puppy, I will do the leg work and see what new studies show, and make my decision based upon the best available info. Any deaf pups that live with us will be neutered on sight. Laurie and Oscar |
| I truly was not talking about anyone on this forum and their intact dogs. I think we in this group ARE far more enlightened than the vast majority simply because we do talk about this subject so frequently. Many of us are very outspoken - as I myself am. And yes I do know this is a topic on every dog list, and they are probably more enlightened than most (like us) but really how many people can that represent? 20 thousand, 50, maybe?Who knows. But in the big picture that is barely a fraction of dog owners. Just because we spend billions on our pets doesn't mean anything other that we spend billions on our pets. It doesn't mean we care more or are smarter or more responsible owners. Still we fill up the rescues and shelters and put down a gazillion dogs a year. So if it seems like I won't let the bone go, it's because there ARE so many people who just don't get it, and I will scream till I'm blue in the face if it brings a few more people around. I have been here a very long time and I don't post very often, considering... I don't jump on the bandwagon with the smileys or hugs, but I often offer up a private prayer by myself of joy or sympathy. I have never posted just to up my # as many do. But when something is important or close to my heart I post. I do read most posts. I read for hours sometimes. This group is part of my day. I love Ron - as we all do.  (he actually saved my marriage/life although he may noteven be aware. He was just bein' Ron!) I would hate to lose it. I have found great people here. And a few of the other kind as well. It really doesn't matter how much dog knowledge you have, being condescending to long time members is not cool. It's just childish and foolish. I think we can tell ourselves that people are great and understand about responsible breeding. But how many posts, about this breeder or that or about a dog bought for all the wrong reasons, or a puppy that doesn't make 2 years because of horrible health issues - how many have we had in the last year? That also fuels my opinion that so many pet owners are clueless about breeding, but add to that friends and family that I have not been able to sway one bit in over 5 years and dozens of people I have run into over the years. I would love to think people are informed and aware but I truly do not think that is the case. Quote: I'm not saying oblivious, uncaring dog owners don't exist, but they are not the majority. Yet we talk them up and make it sound like idiots abound and the backlash is actually on us. For all the billions we spend on our dogs this is not a very dog friendly country for the most part, is it? Why? Because the perception is that the majority of dog owners are a horrible bunch of irresponsible louts. I don't think so. I never said oblivious, uncaring, idiots, or that they were horrible. But I will say irresponsible. You really don't have to be any of those other things to be uninformed about this issue. I also would like to point out that I did make the exception of people in this group. I doubt there is anyone in this group with an intact dog who isn't vigilant about not creating and unexpected litter. And if there is, I really don't want to know it. It would ruin the image in my mind of the requirements to be part of this forum! (however lax they may have become recently. )Shellie (and please - enough of the condescension. I tried really hard to be friendly.) |
| http://img.peopleofpublictransit.com/2011/09/3037.jpg some days i feel like the bus is just full of animals. |
| I absolutely agree with much of what Shellie says. And Kristine has some valid points as well. Yes, those of us in rescue and performance and conformation events DO think of ourselves as "different". Not better really, just (hopefully) more educated and experienced. The people we surround ourselves with are generally of the same mindset. We begin to believe everyone feels the same way. If Nelson wasn't with me or my husband 24/7, I wouldn't know what he was doing. If my dog was not trained or of the fabulous disposition that he is, I would have neutered him in a heartbeat. If we had intact females in the area the 'nads would have been lopped off long ago. He behaves no differently than if he was neutered and is under control at all times. If the results of "unfortunate" breedings weren't so apparent to me through rescue, I'd probably feel differently, too. If I had a female I wouldn't be able to schedule a spay appointment fast enough. Having an intact female has its own special set of responsibilities. Doesn't seem fair to bring even one bitch in season to an event such as Sheepiepalooza and attract all the intact males who may happen to be there. I see all sides of this picture. Thirty years ago I would probably have felt the same way as the gentleman who asked about breeding his bitch with my dog. Back then I almost fell for it but I've learned a lot since then. Most of us have made these mistakes, bought dogs from pet stores or questionable breeders and such. Live and learn. Shellie and I both live in areas where plenty of Amish and others are cranking out dogs just for the money or to show their kids the miracle of nature. I understand where she's coming from. Further north in Kristine's galaxy, they ship in dogs from the Southern states where they go directly to rescues. (I've transported for several of these groups). Quite a contrast. Things look totally different depending on where you are and what you see on a daily basis. Out here in the country, there are more people in difficult financial straits and those who are less informed about many things, not just limited to their choices in breeding their dogs. Some of the "People of Walmart" photos were probably taken in our local store. Having to euthanize that young dog such a short time ago was devastating and I wanted to vent about it a bit. I'm glad the post generated the much-needed discussion on this forum. We can always agree to disagree but it shouldn't offend members to the point of leaving the forum. People having their thoughts and ideas quashed here for fear of hurting feelings has, IMO, stopped several of us from posting. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments about the gorgeous boy who lost his life because the breeder only cared about money. He was loved during his short time here on earth and went to the Bridge peacefully in the arms of caring individuals. I'm sure the guy looking for a stud for his bitch will eventually find one. I just pray that the puppies are healthy and that they don't end up in anyone's rescue. Or worse. |
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