my 8month oes chest is not wide :-( is this normal?
 can anybody tell me what is wrong? |
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| Hi and welcome to the forum!!! When I had a question about my oes, I would contact the breeder with my concerns. She was always there for me and with her vast knowlege of the breed she was able to direct me and give me OES information even more than my vet. You may want to contact you breeder, or your vet to talk about your concerns.  |
sheepieshake wrote: Hi and welcome to the forum!!! When I had a question about my oes, I would contact the breeder with my concerns. She was always there for me and with her vast knowlege of the breed she was able to direct me and give me OES information even more than my vet. You may want to contact you breeder, or your vet to talk about your concerns. we bought her from a korean student last december.. and we tried to contact her but she is no longer available i tried to do some research but i cant find any similar issue.. so i was beginning to wonder if somebody from this forum got the same experience |
| How old was she when you brought her home & is she spayed? These 2 things may have something to do with her structure.....that's why I ask.. |
| she was 2months old that time. and shes not spayed. (it did not came to my mind before that her being not spayed will cause health problems) will the heat affect their growth? because i am from the Philippines and weather here is kinda warm.. but shes shaved now tho and i intend to keep it that way. before we have an aircondition system in our room so heat is not really a problem but now in the new house we have not yet installed one. so i just shaved her. i am giving her satin balls and some calcium and multivitamins. is exercising her too hopefully it will help. is this not a common thing to happen to a sheepdog? |
I doubt there is anything physically wrong with her - unless this is actually affecting her physically in any way? There are any number of breeders who don't necessarily consider the breed standard (what the breed should be built like) when producing puppies, but that doesn't necessarily mean your girl isn't healthy and happy. We have a lot of rescue OES locally who look more like small grey hounds or large whippets. That's just the way the casual breeders are breeding them locally. Or some times they are mixes, grey and white and shaggy, so look like OES, but then you shave them down and realize perhaps there is something else in that gene pool.  That's OK, they're still great dogs.I would actually wait to spay her till she's at least a year old if you can safely avoid an accidental litter. At 8 mos old she still has some growing up/filling out to do and she may still broaden up a little bit. They mature better if you wait to spay or neuter till their growth plates have closed which happens on average (every dog is different) at maybe 15 mos old in our breed? Kristine |
| Spaying early can cause the dogs to grow taller & narrower. I have seen this with my own eyes, even with dogs from the same litter from a breeder who is breeding to the breed standard. That is why I asked. I agree with Kristine....wait on spaying. I always tell my puppy people to wait. My vet says let them mature before spaying. Most likely your girl's pedigree has dogs of similar style. Think about a healthy weight...not numbers. |
| thanks for the reply. this really makes us all here feel better. at least now we know shes not having bone problems or anything. yeah she ate a lot. she plays a lot. anyway i will still have her checked up by a vet in the weekend. thanks guys this forum is awesome! |
| I understand your concern. We have a pure bred, papers and all OES boy who has the build of a bulldog. He grew slowly, and is very short legged (and big bottomed). All we wanted was a healthy sheepie, but when he was young and growing so slowly (and differently) from other sheepies we were very worried. Our vet was a great help. He checked him over top to bottom, inside and out. Turns out he's a perfectly healthy (and very self entitled) funny shaped sheepie. Those unfamiliar with the breed just see a big furry clownlike dog. We've made peace with it. Ironically we recently rescued another male sheepie, and he's the tallest and lankiest one we've ever had. The pair could not look more different, but they are both gorgeous in their own right. Have the vet check your sheepie out. I bet she's just fine, and it will give you peace of mind. |
| OEs are not suppose to have a "wide Chest", broad wide butt yes other no. She is only a youngster and still developing they mature slowly and usually finished the major growth spurts bone wise at 18 months or older and they keep developing and broadening in muscle & coat changes etc till around 3ish. Here is an extension of the points on the what they call the forequarters (front of the dog) explaining how the chest and front legs should be. There not suppose to have a wide chest area. Hope this helps explain how the front of the OES should be. Adding this diagram of the the construction points of an OES so you can see where it describes the scapula and humerus points of the OES on the forequarters.  FOREQUARTERS. The forelegs should be dead straight, with plenty of bone, holding the dog well from the ground without approaching legginess, well coated all round. The shoulders sloping and narrow at the points, the dog standing lower at the shoulder than at the loin. P1 Viewed from the front and in profile the “FORELEGS SHOULD BE DEAD Straight”. Again it is necessary to assess with the hands whether this is so, as careful trimming of foot hair can disguise feet which turn out, and as the whole of the leg is covered in profuse coat it is impossible to determine if there is any curve in the legs without running a hand down BOTH legs. To check whether the feet point straight ahead, lift the foot coat and check that the two centre nails on BOTH front feet point directly forward. OES have ticklish feet and will often move when this is being done, and it is best to complete the examination of the dog while the handler has it set up and then make the examination of the feet just before asking the dog to move. P2 At an early age some growing puppies may turn their feet slightly outward while having an otherwise straight leg. Others may have a curve in the upper leg yet be straight from the knee down and the feet pointing straight ahead. These are growth patterns and one would expect to see them rectified by 6 months. In the adult the turning of the front feet slightly outward is a fault usually in the pastern, but the turning of the feet inward is indicative of serious problems in the forequarter placement on the ribcage usually due to an incorrect shaped ribcage. P3 The OES has moderate angulation rather than excessive. Its shoulders should slope well back and the wither should blend gently into the back, with a slight depression immediately behind the wither. P4 Viewed from the side, the OES with correct angulation of scapula and humerus should stand well over its forelegs. There should be a slight forechest and a line drawn from the heel pad (allow for the coat surrounding the leg) should when extended upward, pass through the wither. If the line passes through the ear or the muzzle then the entire forequarter construction and/or head carriage is incorrect. P5 “FINE AT THE POINT OF SHOULDER”. The Old English Sheepdog is narrow at the point of shoulder. The point of shoulder is the junction of the scapula (shoulder blade) and humerus (upper arm) and the requirement of the standard was that when viewed from the front, the dog was not broad. P6 The wither should be flat. Dogs with high withers may appear to have extra length of neck but the topline will slope to the rear which is totally uncharacteristic of the OES. P7 The elbows fit close to the brisket, neither loose nor tied. |
lisaoes wrote: OEs are not suppose to have a "wide Chest", broad wide butt yes other no. She is only a youngster and still developing they mature slowly and usually finished the major growth spurts bone wise at 18 months or older and they keep developing and broadening in muscle & coat changes etc till around 3ish. Here is an extension of the points on the what they call the forequarters (front of the dog) explaining how the chest and front legs should be. There not suppose to have a wide chest area. Hope this helps explain how the front of the OES should be. Adding this diagram of the the construction points of an OES so you can see where it describes the scapula and humerus points of the OES on the forequarters. FOREQUARTERS. The forelegs should be dead straight, with plenty of bone, holding the dog well from the ground without approaching legginess, well coated all round. The shoulders sloping and narrow at the points, the dog standing lower at the shoulder than at the loin. P1 Viewed from the front and in profile the “FORELEGS SHOULD BE DEAD Straight”. Again it is necessary to assess with the hands whether this is so, as careful trimming of foot hair can disguise feet which turn out, and as the whole of the leg is covered in profuse coat it is impossible to determine if there is any curve in the legs without running a hand down BOTH legs. To check whether the feet point straight ahead, lift the foot coat and check that the two centre nails on BOTH front feet point directly forward. OES have ticklish feet and will often move when this is being done, and it is best to complete the examination of the dog while the handler has it set up and then make the examination of the feet just before asking the dog to move. P2 At an early age some growing puppies may turn their feet slightly outward while having an otherwise straight leg. Others may have a curve in the upper leg yet be straight from the knee down and the feet pointing straight ahead. These are growth patterns and one would expect to see them rectified by 6 months. In the adult the turning of the front feet slightly outward is a fault usually in the pastern, but the turning of the feet inward is indicative of serious problems in the forequarter placement on the ribcage usually due to an incorrect shaped ribcage. P3 The OES has moderate angulation rather than excessive. Its shoulders should slope well back and the wither should blend gently into the back, with a slight depression immediately behind the wither. P4 Viewed from the side, the OES with correct angulation of scapula and humerus should stand well over its forelegs. There should be a slight forechest and a line drawn from the heel pad (allow for the coat surrounding the leg) should when extended upward, pass through the wither. If the line passes through the ear or the muzzle then the entire forequarter construction and/or head carriage is incorrect. P5 “FINE AT THE POINT OF SHOULDER”. The Old English Sheepdog is narrow at the point of shoulder. The point of shoulder is the junction of the scapula (shoulder blade) and humerus (upper arm) and the requirement of the standard was that when viewed from the front, the dog was not broad. P6 The wither should be flat. Dogs with high withers may appear to have extra length of neck but the topline will slope to the rear which is totally uncharacteristic of the OES. P7 The elbows fit close to the brisket, neither loose nor tied. very informative! thank you so much. and to all tho replied thank you very much again. will be posting her pics soon. |
gom wrote: i am giving her satin balls and some calcium and multivitamins. gom I dont know what is available in the philipines as far as premium dog dry food is (kibble) but a word of caution, self supplementation of calcium in large or giant breeds leads to bone deformaties and other problems down the track. If you are feeding a home made diet then a calcium supplement is needed in the form of "bone meal" but you have to get the ratios right for large breeds as too much major deformaties in the developement and too little same thing also, if using a premium dry food ( kibble) there is no need to supplement anything and adding extra calcium & vitamins to that then you can cause enormous damage to the skeletal structure of the developing dog. Lets know what you are feeding her? I'm still trying to work out what satin balls are   |
| ahmm there are premium dog food here in the Philippines too but so sad that in the small city we are living no premium is available satin balls - its a recipe i found in the internet. i am not sure if its ok to post the url here but here it goes http://www.instructables.com/id/Put-wei ... tin-balls/ ic what you said about calcium is kinda scary... when you say bone meal do you crush the raw bones? i cant feed her bones yet coz her teeth is not yet complete and not sure if its strong enough to munch on raw bones.. 500mg of calcium lactate per day is that ok? 250mg in the morning and 250mg in the evening. |
| Satin balls are great and if you can get "Flax Seed oil instead of the vegetable oil do, do that as the benefits there are better, cut the calcium supplement she does not need it. You have in that mix egg & crushed egg shells, the shells are a high source of calcium, along with all great stuff in the stain ball mix, so dont give her the calcium supplement and I am presuming she is several to eight months old now and you are self preparing her meals for her instead of a commercial dog food? If that is the case dont supplement her diet with a calcium additive at all. Otherwise you over-excellarate her growth and it can lead to brittle bones or even worse problems, if you overdose her on calcium. Sounds like she is on all good stuff so cut the calcium supplement it is not neccessary and can be harmfull for her if overdosed on it while in the growth spurt stage.Google calcuim supplementation of large breed and giant breeds on the internet, brings up a lot of info on it and advise against doing it. The satin balls cover all things good for your girl without the need to add calcium supplementation. Look forward to seeing pictures of her. |
| Lisa, what she is most likely refering to is a lack of posternum. No, OES should not be front loaded, but they should have a chest Even in show lines this can be a problem, and you see too many dogs whose chests are almost concave, which tends to be undesirable in a working dog. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Lisa, what she is most likely refering to is a lack of posternum. No, OES should not be front loaded, but they should have a chest Even in show lines this can be a problem, and you see too many dogs whose chests are almost concave, which tends to be undesirable in a working dog. Kristine thank you for replying. may i know what makes this happen to a dog? is it genetic? or will it be fix when she turns into an adult? will an exercise help? by the way this is how her front looks like:  thank you very much again for the reply. |
| Interesting drawing! Yours? Well done, if so. It is genetic. It's just part and parcel of the combination of all of the genes that make up the structure of a dog. It's less than desirable, structurally, but very unlikely to be a problem in a pet. And, yes, the dogs chest may be said to "drop" with maturity, to varying degrees. She may still fill out a bit. Nonetheless, like Lisa I would avoid supplementation of calcium, especially. The dog depicted toes out, which is not unusual in narrow chested dogs. As Lisa noted, front legs should be straight, with elbows under shoulder. This makes for strong, true, efficient movement (well, there are other factors that play in, everything has to fit together)In dogs that are too wide in front, elbows may be out and some of these dogs toe in. To me this is even worse. The following illustrations are of Berners, but it gives you a nice idea of common differences in front assemblies. http://www.bmdinfo.org/illustratedbmd/forequarters.php Basically, any deviations from the "ideal" are just less than ideal, nothing more than minor concerns in most pet dogs. It typically affects the way a dog moves, but very, very rarely in such a way that would affect the dog's quality of life in any way. In a show dog it would be a problem because they are judged against the breed standard and this is not ideal. In a performance (herding, agility etc) dog it would be a more significant concern as it could affect the dog's ability to perform the task at hand, but I'm guessing you don't have a flock of sheep in your back yard? Translation: I wouldn't worry. And, yes, it can change some in time. But I would let nature take its course. There are no exercises or supplements that would change basic structure. And since most people leave some hair on their OES coupled with the fact that your average person doesn't give much thought if any to proper movement, chances are no one but you would ever really notice. I have a (pet/neutered) male who is what they call "front loaded" - wide in the front, which forces elbows out a bit, and so consequently his legs swing out as he moves. Every time I see him trot towards me I want to reach for a barf bag. Let's not talk about his funky ear set or the fact that his head is less than masculine  Because of that front I won't do agility with him. But otherwise it doesn't affect him in any way. Because of the ears I hate taking him out in public shaved. But, guess what? Nobody but me notices (read: obsesses about) this. Oh, other show people would, not that he's the first far less than perfect dog to be born As I keep telling him: it's a good thing he has a wonderful personality!  Kristine |
| OK forgot about the posternum area so yes agree on that one. Hard to know when one describes not a wide chest. gom as Kristine said not a major problem if from your drawing and yes I'm with Kristine on this, if you drew that diagram to try and explain what her front is like "Well Done" lovely detailed diagram  No more supplementing her with calcium lactate not needed and could be doing more harm then good. Referring you to a Yahoo list on natural feeding of OES, good list to join and get advice on feeding an OES when no premium commercial dog food is available, join there to ask questions there and get good info on what your girl needs as she is developing when you are doing a homemade diet. Keep up the satin balls, all good stuff in those, I am even going to keep that one handy to try on my dogs. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalOES/  |
| thank you very much for your replies. yeah i stop giving her calcium already and just stick with the satin balls diet. its a bit expensive here but i think its better than low quality dog foods. by the way tho i am not the one drawing the image. i just crop it. its from an ebook i have for german shepherds. (i dont have german shepherds tho)  |
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