To Shave/cut or not
I promiced the family to try to let his hair grow out and get that fluffie look..As long as they helped me with brushing & bathing..His hair is not really fluffing as much as I would have thought it would..Is this becaus he hasn't been cut before? He is only 8 months old.and still has not turned all silver..I have just seen alot od Sheepies shaved,and talk of Puppy cuts..My Cody when I "tried"to shave just his feet area,kept trying to bit me and acted like I was killing him...Anyways,just thought I would ask.. |
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 Boy!Lots Of people looking, noone has any advice? |
| Cody's Mom,
There is no need to cut the coat to get it to "fluff"in subsequent growths. Some dogs tend to mature more slowly than others and this may be a factor with Cody but judging from your avatar Cody seems to have hair appropriately long for an 8 month old. (Don't expect him to be silver until at least 2 years of age - 3 to 4 years is more common for the light silver effect and even then not all Bobtails turn such a light shade in their grizzle.) So the question has to be how often is he bathed and what is your bathing routine? The youngsters tend too find all manner of dirt and that often includes greases and oils which will "weigh down" their hair just as it does ours and prevent the fluffy appearance. Additionally how you bathe and dry the dog has a BIG effect on how fluffy they look. It is essential that all shampoo and conditioners are thoroughly rinsed out and that the hair is brushed out as it is blown dry. Finally is there any evidence that Cody's skin is in some way in a less than optimal condition? You might want to try a skin and coat supplement to ensure that both are well nourished and that he is indeed growing a "good" coat. Let us know a bit more about his general condition and grooming routine so we can try and "work out" an approach that suits you and Cody as a pair. What works for my dogs and I does not necessarily fit into other family routines but I'm sure the communal knowledge here at the forum can help "improve" Cody's coat appareance to what you are seeking. Feel free to respond by post or PM. Thanks and Cheers Carl |
 I used to bathe Cody every two weeks,now that he is getting SOOOO big, once a month..I haven't noticedany skin troubles as of yet.With the exception of a red irritation on his underbody,about where there may be urine residue. Other wise he seems to be in good condition. He does play outside alot..But,I didn't realize just how long it took for them to turn silver..Thank-you. |
| I have not heard that shaving effects the regrowth of the coat. I am a strong believer in a puppy cut in the summer time for comfort reasons. Tasker gets a puppy cut in April then a bit shorter in June. By December he usually has six inches of hair and by early spring is "foofie" |
| The only part I've cut of Clyde is around his eyes and he'll also be 8 months this week. It was getting so long that I couldn't spray wax (he'll eat any elastic or clip) it back for long and he was having a tough time seeing well, which was not a plus in puppy class. Honestly, I really hated it when I first brought him home from the groomer but I love being able to see his eyes now and he's much more graceful. Wait, that's the wrong word completely, he'll never be graceful! Let's just say he doesn't bang his head on the table or walk into walls anymore!
I just try to brush him everyday and I'd like to keep his coat as long as I can as long as he's comfy. But, if he looks too hot in the summer, we'll try the puppy cut. |
| Hey Gang,
Bobtails don't "bump" into walls, tables etc. That is their patented "biff navigation" technique. That is what my Dad would always call it when Punk would walk into things. "... Walk until he hits something, turn walk again until hitting something and so on until he got where he wanted to be ..." LOL And graceful is a relative term. There is nothing quite like seeing our Martin Zephram with his head up strutting around with a toy teasing Virgil Tiberius to come and take it from him. It is really amazing just how light a 100 pound boy can be on his feet and then rear up so effortlessly to pirouette on his back feet and slip away from Virgil!! More seriously I still maintain that if the fall is properly brushed and free of knots and dirt these guys can see just fine. Yes they can be a bit foolish and run into small still items, like oh walls, houses and parked cars but they can readily see and track the big items like the leaf blowing down the road, the other dog 2 blocks away etc. Many a time I have had both Virgil and Martin out on a walk and they have heard something of interest, frozen in their spot and locked onto the animal/person and their heads have tracked their target motion as sure and relaibly as any fire control radar!! One of the best examples of this was last fall when we were walking and a couple of teenage girls, quite full of themselves, prattled on about "... like as if they can see through that ..." All the time both boys had motionless bodies but their heads swivelled in unison as they tracked these two young fools who passed from the boys right to left. Oh yes they can see through a properly brushed fall, and biff navigation is just to throw us off their real agenda. They are too smart for OUR good!! Thanks and Cheers Carl |
| Yes, I have to admit, I'm not crazy about cutting around his eyes and won't be doing it again. I had to laugh though Carl, that's so true. Clyde had no problem tracking a gray squirrel on an overcast day but ran headfirst into the coffee table on a regular basis!
As far as graceful, I do have to say, I love watching him run. He takes giant gallops and just flies through the air, it reminds me of the commercial of the sheepie on the beach. However, the part they don't show in the commercial is him running head first into a fence or the side of the house...  |
| My 2 cents. I am an amature photographer as you all may know and have read and practiced and seen the results of lense blockage.
The way you get a soft focus picture, other than just being out of focus is with a soft focus lense a specialty portrait lense. Some of these lenses have the outer edge of the lense blocked so that it doesn't receive the same amount of light and because of this reduction of information that part of the picture is much softer (less information). It is not out of focus it just has less information. It's like mathmaticaly rounding up to the nearest whole number, you know where you are but if you use this for guidence information you will miss the target. Now consider this, a little hair is like rounding up to the nearest whole number, more hair is like rounding up to the nearest 5, more hair to the nearest 10 and so on. Light level also reduces information received thats why you can't see in the dark. Complete darkness is the equivilant of 100 % light blockage. We all know how dangerous it is to drive at dusk, could you imagine seeing at dusk levels. I challenge you to hold a varying amount of sheepdog hair in front of your eyes and test the results. Each hair reduces the amount of light or information your eye receives, edges and detail begin to dissapear. If the amount of information is reduced and the light condition is a low light level then information is significantly reduced. Thats why our dogs bump into stuff. Now I know I haven't used all the scientific language etc. but I strongly feel that hair in the eyes limits a dogs ability to see to the degree that makes it dangerous for them. I am in favor of cutting around the eyes unless you are showing and in that instance you will not win with cut hair. I will say we should all lobby the OESCA to change the standard to also allow cutting the hair around the eyes as weel as the feet and butt. Chris |
| Gotta say, I agree with Chris. When Tasker was much younger he had a potentially terrible accident in which he ran FULL TILT into a parked pickup truck. He was chasing another dog who veered off when he reached the truck and Tasker hit it BAM, head on. He was actually knocked senseless for a few minutes. Since then I have kept his eyes free of obstruction. Perhaps he is an unusually clutzy pup and that isn't always necessary. Another plus is that Tasker and I often communicate with eye language. I can look at his eyes and know "what he's thinking" and we have these silly little face games we play using facial expressions and eye language. Don't you wish we could read their minds and know what REALLY goes on inside them???? |
| Poor Sky was running full tilt in the yard a few weeks ago and smashed right into a tree. I should have named her George.
Anyway, she had a fat lip, and a bruised muzzle, and I felt so bad for her. It must have hurt very badly. When she is done showing, I will be trimming her hair around her eyes, and any dog I have that is not being shown will be trimmed. However, I am now trying different methods of keeping that hair up out of the way for her safety, elastics, barrettes, teasing it, hairspray, to see what works. So far a tiny elastic seems to work best and do the least damage. |
| HEHEHEH, I was just reading an article on how to make a topknot for my new maltese puppy, maybe I could give it a try on Tasker!!!!! Interesting that maltese are also a breed that have hair hanging in the face but from what I have seen their hair id always put up in a topknot. |
| I can't imagine that the sheepherders of the past allowed the hair to cover the eyes, simply from an economics perspective, the dog undoubtedly would have saved more livestock if they could see better. More live sheep more wool. The dog would be better able to fight if it could see the enemy. I'm feel certain we have the history of the breed wrong. I know there are pictures of them wjere you can't see the eyes. But the reality of the dogs job would dictate cutting the hair over the eyes. It seems to me any way. |
| Or does the job necessitate the sheep NOT being able to see the dogs eyes? Perhaps they were calmer around oes for that reason?
As far as I know, dogs doing the traditional job were shorn down at the same time as the sheep, though I don't know how many times a year that is done. |
| Who knows, the history part was a little tounge in cheek troublemaking.
I do feel that the hair over the eyes is a tragedy on a minor scale. I believe with all my heart the dogs would be better off with the hair out of their eyes. |
| After seeing poor Sky hit that tree, I think they are better off with it out of the way too! Poor baby! |
| We keep the eye hair trimmed too, and I love a sheepie in full coat. So we thinned it right out, still looks long but not as full. |
| When Carl doesn't have a ponytail in, he walks around very cautiously like he's afraid something's going to pop up and he'll waffle into it. (It's happend before.) As soon as we put his hair up, he's a super bouncy puppy.
Norman on the other hand hates ponytails and will do everything in his power to rip them out, rub them out whatever it takes. So we leave his hair down and it has naturally gone into a part. He looks like the monster from Bugs Bunny! |
You all will get a good laugh out of this...I live in arizona and panda sleeps outside (my husbands only demand  ) so I keep her very short..last month i was in the backyard trimming her and i had to clean the blade so i took off the 1/4 inch guard started cleaning it and brian came into the yard asking help with something so i set the clippers down, help him, grab panda again (trimming isnt a favorite with her) and start on her muzzle....i forgot to put the guard back on....i took her down to pink skin on one side of her face...oooooh she looked so bad  (just like a poodle----no offense to poodle owners) i had to cut her down on the other side to make it even.....i cried....she is starting to look a little better, but ohhh that was really bad....but anyway i keep her in puppy cut 9 months out of the year...it really helps..... |
| Ok I just have to wade into this one now.
Chris has used his expertise as an amateur photographer to try to substantiate his hypothesis that OES can't see with the fall over their eyes in spite of the evidence that I and a number of others have presented. Well Chris I too am an amateur photographer in digital, 35 mm and large (6" x4") formats. Further to that I have a close friend who is an accomplished professional photographer who has mentored me in many aspects of lighting, composition and lens selection/limitation. Yes the fall, especially if not well brushed will reduce the amount of light and information reaching the dog's cornea. No it is not like a blockage but in term with which you are familiar the fall acts very much like a neutral density filter, perhaps 2 stops, 3 at most. The fact that hairs are individual solid items and not a homogenous filter material has little if any affect on the overall level of light reduction. Note that in reflecting telephoto lenses and telescopes very large secondary elements are present in front of the primary mirror and yet there are no "blind or masked spots" in these lenses. Sure they are slower by 2-3 f-stops because of it but they still collect light very well with very good resolution. Beyond the "external" optical considerations consider what we are told of the structure of a dog's cornea. Dogs have a much greater propertion of rods to cones in the cornea than do we, which according to researchers means that that their corneas collect light more effectively (efficiently) than ours but at the cost of colour resolution. Rods = sensitivity, cones = colour resolution. Higher proportion of rods = more sensitivity. So how does all this add up and what are the cumulative affects on a Bobtail's sight? I can't "tap into" the optic nerve of a dog and processs those signals and I'm pretty sure you can't either so we have to gather evidence and interpret it. We also have to consider the work the dog's originally did and how that affects their interpretation of what they see. A number of other forum members as well as myself have posted that their dogs are able to see small animals and leaves at substantial differences. They certainly face these items/animals and apparently follow their motions. If given the opportunity they will often chase and "herd" them as well. I have also posted the observation that my dogs have frequently stood motionless except for their heads "panning" as they have followed a person or other animal of interest pass throught their field of vision. How can these observations be interpreted as anything other than the dogs being able to see through the fall and are watching things which interest them? Things which are often small and not necessarily of sharp conrast against the background. (eg Butterscotch's post about Clyde seeing a grey squirel on an overcst day.) I also maintian that these dogs, by virtue of their herding background, key much more on motion than they do any other visual clues. That would certainly have been a benefit in the fields when keeping watch over their charges. The motionless "background" was of little importance to them but the movement of the sheep, cattle etc called them into activity. That has not yet been bred out of them so in the domestic setting most now find themselves furniture and other items no matter how big are of little interest to them. Martin and Virgil do occassionally run into things but for the most part are very nimble and quick witted. They have never run into anything stationary or other moving dogs/people at breakneck speeds. They visit our dog park and demonstrate a keen visual awareness of other dogs, people and objects at the park. My beloved Punk might have been less aware than Martin and Virgil but even so never ran into things at breakneck speed. Sure he would sometimes bump into household items when in full coat - and full coat for him was literally twice the coat of most dogs on this forum - but then again when he was occassionally clipped he'd still bump into things with no fall at all over his eyes. No he was not blind! He simply disregarded many stationary items and focused on where he was going or upon whomever or whatever he was playing. THESE DOGS CAN SEE THROUGH THE FALL!! Yes that view is less than perfect in comparison to a sight hound but it is not a "tragedy on any scale". Present evidence Chris, not "feelings". At the very least address the evidence that more people than just I have presented. I'll address the issue of the standard, again, in the poll forum. Carl |
| Jasper's hair covers his eyes now, and he can see very well. A little too good sometimes, lol He's not clumsy at all, and so far he hasn't bumped into anything but us & the kids. |
| Well the logic of the matter will prevail and the truth of science and physics is undeniable to those with open eyes and minds. The truth of course, will be not as visible to those blinded by the fall of misinterpreted history, or those that blindly follow. I suppose the true well being of the breed will be left up to those with vision and courage not blinded or intimidated. I do find it interesting that when you look at the Old English Sheepdog Club of America web site under history that the dogs in the pictures, the actual working dogs, did not have hair in their eyes. http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... _sheep.htm You only find hair over the eyes in the dogs of the breed fanciers. So much for history, maybe further research will change my mind, we will see.
As a side note this was not a crusade of mine but was a curious friendly question. It is unlikely that the standard will change, but the poll on a very small scale says if in the absence of veiled blind opposition the hair would be trimmed over the eyes. I do wonder which type is the correct standard the European OES or the American OES 2 very different dogs as I understand it one smaller with less hair the other larger with more hair. And at this I check out of nasty politics unless forced back in by further insults and baiting and move back into information and friendly conversation and curiosity. There will be a time and a place for change. Your truly, Chris |
| I also felt compelled to weigh in on this matter of the hair in the eyes:
I personally prefer the look of hair in the eyes and when I have made Mopsy all girly and put her hair up in a bow - she doesn't seem to see any better. But I think my husband has the best theory: The dogs are far sighted and see better at a distance. Both the OES I had growing up and Mopsy could see a miniscule crum across the room that I hadn't noticed but drop a treat at a close distance and they use the black nose to hone in. This has followed through since Mopsy's eyes have gotten worse with age(cataracts) but not too long ago she went flying down the driveway past a dog just feet away to bark at the owner who was standing down at the mailbox. Has anyone else noticed this far-sighted/near-sighted concept? |
| Chris,
You are still not addressing the evidence presented by many people. SheepieMommy has just presented yet more, different than a good amount of it already brought forward but nevertheless in support of them seeing. (It is very interesting and may explain my observation that they "key on motion". I will have to research that possible explanation.) However since it doesn't meet with your hypothosis will it too be ignored? Quote: I check out of nasty politics unless forced back in by further insults and baiting You imply others are being policial, nasty and baiting you and yet it is you who offer the haughty and dismissive comments: Quote: Well the logic of the matter will prevail and the truth of science and physics is undeniable to those with open eyes and minds. The truth of course, will be not as visible to those blinded by the fall of misinterpreted history, or those that blindly follow Quote: I suppose the true well being of the breed will be left up to those with vision and courage not blinded or intimidated
So just what is your "standing" in the breed. How long have you been involved with OES? Do you breed or show? Do your dogs participate in herding trials or other "working" competitions? Again perhaps I have missed your discussion of these topics, if so please point me towards them and your/your dog's accomplishments. I have been passionate and involved with OES for more than 30 years, since before I was even a teenager. I have a decent OES library and keep in contact with a number of Canadian OES breeders and am endeavering to increase that contact and learning. I follow this forum and two mailing lists, continually search for more information and learning on the net and through dog magazines and breed club publications. We show and are preparing to start our own kennel - and no we won't just follow what others have done. Michele and I have very definitive opinions as to what an OES should be within the bounds of our national standard. (Oh by the way the Canadian Standard is generally accepted as being the closest still extant to the original British Standard.) Even at that I wouldn't dare to imply that I am responsible for the future well being of the breed, just one of a number of devotees trying his best to keep the breed "true to type" and improving it's overall health and genetic pool diversity. I hope you can match that because if you can't I find your self-reference to " the true well being of the breed will be left up to those with vision and courage not blinded or intimidated" at the very best, hollow. Carl |
| My comments at this point are, first of all; I think so far this line of conversation is heated, but still fairly civil, intelligently thought out, and well spoken. I hope that it stays within civil boundaries, because to do otherwise jeopardizes not only people's feelings, but the well being of the forum, which to me is paramount. This forum is an invaluable resource for OES lovers and breeders for hopefully many years to come.
I personally am one who also believes the Canadian standard most closely matches the original British standard, after studying all oes standards available. I have been involved with the breed for over a decade, but also involved in genetics, animal health and husbandry in general for far longer than that. I venture into the serious responsibility of raising, and therefore promoting, preserving, protecting, and improving this glorious breed, with the help of some very experienced mentors, an armload of ever-growing education, the eagerness to learn more, and most of all a deep love of the breed. While Chris' expressed intent and desire to change the breed, if only within his own means, if he truly believes is for the best is admirable, whether I agree with it or not, I also firmly believe that to attempt to change anything you must first know how to maintain what is. One needs to have a firm grip on what should be according to the standard as it is now, in regards to physical conformation, health, temperment, everything before one can know what may need to be changed, and why. A clear understanding of why things are the way they are would seem to me to come before the why it should be changed. As to the fall, though my girl Sky ran into a tree.... she is a puppy, and was at play enjoying herself immensely. It happens. I do think that she can see through it just fine. They adjust. No, they do not see as well as a sight hound. They are not sight hounds. They are Old English Sheepdogs. As I mentioned in a previous post, perhaps the fall of hair over they eyes allows the sheep to be calmer around oes, perhaps that was part of what propelled them as a breed for that purpose. However, our dogs today, that are bred toward a "show" standard, which does not neccesarily match the breed standard, have far more coat than they used to. That has been bred for in most lines, to win in the show ring. It serves no other purpose. The way the coat is brushed for show has nothing to do with the structure of the dog as it is, it has only been developed to accentuate certain structural qualities unique to oes, and in some cases, unfortunately, to hide structural faults in the ring. Although the standard states that coat quality and texture should be considered above mere profuseness, that profuseness often wins, it is stunning to see. That said, the original intent of showing still excites me. A show is meant for "showing" what is being produced. It is an opportunity to have a dog evaluated by a judge, trained and experienced, against the standard and against others of it's breed. It is also to promote the breed, to ensure interest does not wane in our beloved bobtails, to keep them going strong. A breeder can glean from a dogs success or lack of success in competition what strengths and faults his or her dogs have, and need to be worked with to strive toward the goal of producing better. By the way Carl, I am thrilled to see your comment on genetic diversity. I am eager to see your successes over the years.... and cannot wait to see your first litter of OES. I think it is going to be a promising day for the breed. |
| Personally, I love the look of an oes in full coat, but cannot myself maintain it. I also like the look of an eye covered dog, but I prefer to be able to see my dog's eyes to better understand what he's thinking.
But it's all a matter of opinion, and as Willowsprite has said, Harmony is the most important asset of this forum. Please chat with each other as if you were sitting at your kitchen table, sharing a cup of tea with a neighbor you don't know very well. Please pepper your posts with "I thinks" and "I feels" and "maybes". While these phrases are generally understood and communicated well in personal contact, it's pretty important to explicity say them in this medium, I think.
Thanks! Interesting topic! |
| Well, I did it! Took 3.5 hours!! And his feet and snout (where the muzzle was)are not finished...He looks soooo Differant..He seems to be happier..Not as hot..But, he will NOT let me near his feet! any suggestions? I'll have to get a updated picture and post it!!! |
| I don't have any special tricks. You may have to use 2 people. Be sure to stop when he is really freaking and talk to him calmly. Actually talk to him calmly the whole time this will help anyway. Try scissoring his feet. |
| With both my girls feet are touchy. Dancer I just hold her firmly, tell her no more nonsense and continue what I was doing, in her case shaving. In Sky's case, I have someone help hold her if necessary, because I use scissors to trim her feet (in between the pads) and even with the rounded tip I am afraid of nicking her. For around the edges of her feet I trim while she is standing on the grooming table. They both get better and better all the time aobut feet, and since their nails are trimmed once a month, it is not much of a big deal anymore. I think you just have to get them used to it, touch the feet lots. |
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