My Problem Child Tonks
Tonks is on Prozac. 3 weeks ago we took the girls to the kennel. It was short notice, and just an over-night stay. Essentially, I had a mountain of work to get done in a really short period of time, and the heat being what it is here in Georgia, we thought taking the dogs to the kennel for 24 hours was win-win. They get to swim 3 times a day, and I can work uninterrupted by bored dogs. Sounded like a good plan. So I drive the hour up there; we swim together, then we hike, and I bring them to their kennel. Uh-oh; this was TOO short notice. A Great Dane was in their regular kennel; they had to go into a different one. Shouldn't have been a big deal. I'm going to side-track for a minute: Tonks and Luna are awesome dogs. Littermates, that are the best of friends 99% of the time. 1% of the time Tonks attacks Luna for 30 seconds. Its a dominance thing. But Tonks has triggers: going through doorways, guarding bones, and certain breeds of dogs. Like Great Danes. Okay, back to my story. So I wasn't thinking about fight triggers- we'd had a swim, a hike, it was warm and the girls were happy and should have been tired. I wasn't thinking "this isn't their normal kennel- this kennel has a full glass front and they can see me walking way. Its smaller than thier usual kennel, and a weird floorplan. And they can see the Great Dane barking like crazy at them from the adjacent kennel." So when I turned to leave, and suddenly it was all fighting, I was so angry at myself for NOT seeing the obvious. I can only assume that Luna got up out of her sit-stay because she saw me leaving. She went of the kennel door, which Tonks was guarding. Tonks, already keyed up because that Great Dane would NOT SHUT UP attacked Luna. Luna, in an unfamiliar kennel that was smaller with a more restrictive layout than what they are used to panicked... and Luna fought back for the first time in three years. And she's very good at it. She's always been so tolerant of Tonks chomping on her, and its almost never been anything serious. A scab here or there- Tonks is a pretty lousy fighter, and not all that serious at doing her sister harm. Its always more of an admonition than a real attack. And thats not my speculating; that's the opinion of our trainer and our vet. Well not this time. By the time they'd stopped- only about a minute into it, Luna and Tonks both had to go to the vet, which has NEVER happened before. Luna was okay; most of her bites were either closable with glue or so minor that the vet said to ignore them. Tonks on the other hand walked away with 8 stitches. And a limp. And she was a basket case for 24 hours. As we were leaving I asked the vet if we could try Doggie Prozac on Tonks. She shows other signs of anxiety- pacing at night, and nervous habits like chasing the cats in sudden bouts of spastic energy when she is fully capable of sitting calmly with them. The vet agreed we could try it and put Tonks on the lowest dose. The first week she was REALLY sleepy. Then, we had to kennel them again for 8 days while we went on a business trip. We checked in regularly and they said she wasn't sleepy anymore, she was doing really well, but her appetite was diminished. I'd noticed the same, but they said with some effort they were getting her to eat. I picked them up from the kennel on Wednesday, and I can hardly get Tonks to eat a thing. The first night I mixed her kibble with hamburger and she ate it. But that trick didn't work the next morning. So I cut up her favorite treats and mixed it in with the hamburger and was able to hand feed her about half of it. Again, the next meal that didn't work. I've been trying everything she loves to eat, and I can hardly get her to swallow what I put on her tongue. I don't want to stop the Prozac- we're getting REALLY good results. Its only been three weeks and Tonks is letting Luna walk through doorways first. She raced up to some dogs on the other side of a fence, play bowed, bounced twice, and then trotted away without every barking- this is HUGE for her. She had to stop going to doggie daycare due to fence-fighting! and she walked up to a friend's dog that was being pet by me, and instead of being dominant and guarding me, she licked this dog on the face and laid down. I'm bowled over by some of the positives I've seen in the short time we've been using it. But I'm afraid she's going to starve. Does anyone have any advice? We've back to the vet in the morning because I'm panicking and I want to weigh her. But I was hoping that someone here had some personal experience of knew of a friend with experiences that could help us out. Thanks for reading my long winded story. And thanks in advance for not judging. I'll do whatever it takes to make both my girls happy and healthy; even if it means I have to try drugging them to do it.  ~Allison |
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What you have done with these girls is amazing, the amount of training and effort and energy you've been able to give is amazing. Far more than I would have been capable of. I'm sure most dogs in her situation would end up in rescue and on Petfinder with a "better for a only dog home" disclaimer. Instead she has a loving home with a fantastic mom and a sister for company, which she appreciateds 95% of the time. If medication helps Tonks (and Luna and yourself!) have a calmer happier life, then go for it!!!!! I'm sure no animal gets pleasure from feeling anxious. Tonks is inherently the way she is, one could say "damaged", if medication can give her a better life, do it! |
I should add that Tonks was suitably ashamed of her behavior: and that the new cat was relentless in mocking Tonks while she had no peripheral vision:  |
| Allison, I don't have any advice or even any hints to give. I do want you to know that I don't judge you, you've gone above what a lot of people would do to keep peace with your girls and to learn what does help and what doesn't. I've been thinking about talking to the vet about something for Gar. We've done lots of training and he just does not get it. He's way over the top with the none-stop barking and even Simon is getting a little fed up with constantly being pounced on and dragged around by the neck. I hope someone else chimes in with some suggestions. |
Allison, I don't have any experience with doggie Prozac....sorry. Just wanted you to know that I support and commend your efforts to ensure both of your dogs are healthy and happy.  aside from the extreme decrease in appetite it sounds like the medication is really working wonderfully for Tonks.Please don't beat yourself up over giving your dog this medication because mental illness is just as real as a physical illness like thyroid disease. No dog chooses to have thyroid disease and no dog chooses to have mental problems. I hope the vet can do something to help you,.....maybe 1/2 a pill? Good luck. I will be thinking of you and your girls.  |
Baba wrote: What you have done with these girls is amazing, the amount of training and effort and energy you've been able to give is amazing. Far more than I would have been capable of. I'm sure most dogs in her situation would end up in rescue and on Petfinder with a "better for a only dog home" disclaimer. Instead she has a loving home with a fantastic mom and a sister for company, which she appreciateds 95% of the time. If medication helps Tonks (and Luna and yourself!) have a calmer happier life, then go for it!!!!! I'm sure no animal gets pleasure from feeling anxious. Tonks is inherently the way she is, one could say "damaged", if medication can give her a better life, do it! Thanks; I love them so much. I fear that one day one of them will get truly hurt, and I will not have done "enough" to safe-guard them. The vet suggested I separate them, but its impossible. In fact, when I told her that minutes after any fight Luna just wants to play with her sister, the vet told me that when they finished with Luna and crated her to work on Tonks, She wimpered and yelped until they let her sit near her sister! Tonks beats up on her, and all she wants to do is go right back to playing with Tonks. This incident has really shaken Tonks; she's unsure of how to go back to playing with Luna. Luna wants to wrestle, and Tonks shies away. Luna wants to play fetch- a game that involves Tonks hogging the ball and Luna chasing her adoringly- and Tonks doesn't want to play. They'll cuddle together still, and sit together and walk together. The other night Luna was offering Tonks her plush toys by grabbing them in her mouth and then trying to cram them into Tonk's face. They don't even PLAY with their plush toys anymore. Luna is so damned sweet, and she loves her bossy mean sister. I just want them both to be happy and to be safe. Tonks has a puncture wound that took two stitches under her eye- the vet says if it had been higher up, she could have been blinded. Earlier this year Luna had a similar hole in her eyelid-- this is way too close for comfort for me. I have to do something. But will Tonks go back to being playful? Will she starve to death? We were told that it can take 6 weeks to "normalize" on the medicine. But will she have lost too much weight by then; will we have to stop using the medicine to get her to eat? I don't want to undo the good we're seeing, but I do want my playful puppy back, and I want her to eat more than a couple of tablespoons of food each meal!!! |
Millielover wrote: I hope the vet can do something to help you,.....maybe 1/2 a pill? Good luck. I will be thinking of you and your girls. on the phone the vet suggested that instead of one dose a day, to break it into halves and give her 2 smaller doses. I'm willing to try anything, even if it doesn't sound like it will help. But its not a pill; its a capsule. halving it accurately is going to be tricky, if even possible. Anyone have any experience with that or any suggestions? |
| Go to the pharmacy and buy a pill chopper. It costs a few dollars and looks like an itty bitty guillotine. We use it all the time at our place and it works well. |
Mady wrote: Go to the pharmacy and buy a pill chopper. It costs a few dollars and looks like an itty bitty guillotine. We use it all the time at our place and it works well. It works on capsules too? This thing is 2 halves of plastic coating with powder inside. Its not a solid pill. I'm afraid i won't get the amounts of powder in each does right, that it will go everywhere when I chop it... |
| Allison--I too really commend your efforts with your girls! You have really gone above and beyond what most would do to keep them safe and happy. The pill may be the answer you are looking for when she adjusts to it. I do know that you can purchase empty capsules--but I am not much help as I don't know where--maybe if your vet suggested splitting the pill she might be able to get some for you. Or ask at a pharmacy if they have them. Good luck and maybe as she adjusts her appetite will return. |
| You can have the pills compounded at a pharmacy that does it...Rosie has to have her pills split for twice a day, we get medicine and take it to pharmacy..costs very little and they accurately make new pills. |
| I'm so sorry for the pain your family is feeling. Never has anyone had their dog's health more foremost than you, Allison. As Mady's Dad said, others would have rehomed or worse. And Luna loves her sister unconditionally as you do. I applaud your decision to intervene for their safety and wellbeing. I don't know a thing about canine medications, but Please talk to your vet before you decrease her meds. This type of med has an adjustment period, plus noted weight loss in humans. A several week trial in humans is usually prescribed prior to a dosage change. Wishing you better days, stop beating yourself up!! You are a wonderful Mommy.  |
| No judging here. I commend you for everything that your doing to try and make your girls be more civil to each other. Have you tried anything homeopathic. NOt sure if it's as strong and prozac type drugs but it might not have the side effects if it did work. I would also do whatever it takes to help my 2 live in harmony. Good luck and I look forward to hearing more of your journey. It's nice that your sharing your story to help others. Lisa Frankie and Mattie |
| allison, i would agree with you that you've had great results with prozac, but i would strongly ask vet to lower dosage and see if appetite improves. tonks may just belong to the group that suffers from weight loss on this drug. there are many of these available and many people have to try various ones to get results and the least side effects. i wouldn't want to see tonks have to go through trying a bunch if adjustment of dosage might resolve this. http://depression.emedtv.com/prozac/pro ... -loss.html |
| Allison, you are doing everything you can. I admire you for not giving up on Tonks. I had a cat who developed (very suddenly) aggression problems with one of his housemates - serious injury was a real fear - and medicating him helped with the aggression. If not, we would have had to seriously consider giving him up, and having raised him from the age of 3 weeks old (we found him dumped on the side of the road), even the thought of that was heartbreaking. I'm not familiar with Prozac, but I know it may take a while to get the medication balanced, and a compounding pharmacy is an excellent suggestion. They can customize dosages and delivery methods for you. Plus, her dosages may change a bit as she builds up a tolerance to the meds. Keep working closely with the vet, and don't give up. It sounds like Tonks is making progress already. |
babysheepie wrote: Have you tried anything homeopathic. Lisa Frankie and Mattie I have- Tonks can be very spastic at the best of times, and at grooming times she's... well she's tough some days. So I've tried homeopathic remedies for that, and gotten no noticeable results. But thanks for the suggestion. I believe strongly on homeopathic over traditional drugs when possible. I'm currently doing it myself for on ongoing illness that nothing else seems to alleviate. |
| Well we saw the vet early this morning and Tonks has dropped 6 pounds in 2 weeks. She checked all other possibilities- checked for a fever and for signs of a blockage. She wanted to eliminate any other possible reasons for her appetite loss. But she said something that made me feel a lot better- this time last year Tonks was actually one pound lighter than she weighed in today. So she's in no danger, in terms of her weight. She also looked at Tonks' medical records for every summer, and was able to track a trend in weight loss- that is to say, Tonks losses her appetite with the heat, and every summer she drops a bunch of weight! That also made me feel a lot better. We're to watch her closely, split her dosage into 2 smaller daily doses (same amount of medicine given twice a day instead of once) and report back on Tuesday. Thanks for all the support guys!!!!! I love you all for being here and having such nice and helpful things to say! |
| Allison Two things to try: 1. place a piece of wax paper on a good kitchen scale. Weight the contents of the capsule. Give half the amt. After that you'll know how much to weight out each meal 2. Ask your vet if the med is soluable. Dissolve the contents in 2-3cc beef broth or water. Give half,place the other half in the frig,give in the evening I'm a neonatal(premie nurse). We have had to do this with the babies forever... Of coarse our pharmacy does it for us but easy to do at home Good Luck- no one is judging you Pat |
| i have no advice but i have seen you love them through the beginning and i commend you , i am sure it kills you to see them fight hang in there sending |
| I think you have to do whatever is necessary to keep both happy and safe. Sometimes medication is necessary and you have the vet monitoring her so hopefully everything will be fine. |
This may sound harsh but something to consider: Stop feeding her all the favorite foods like hamburger for at least a week. Maybe add a sprinkling of cheese for enticement? As long as she knows there will be burger or other high-value foods, she'll probably avoid her regular food as long as possible. We had a dog that acted similarly and our vet told us we shouldn't be overly concerned unless she was off the food for ten days. She began eating days before that.  She's been through some trauma but don't make the mistake of coddling her excessively. Give the girls equal time and try to keep things as normal as possible. The more you give the more she will demand. As you already know, never reward negative behavior.  You've come so far with Tonks and Luna it's amazing. A lesser person would have put at least one of them down by now so using the Prozac is just another tool to try. No one should judge you for that and if they do, so what? They aren't the ones living with your situation. |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: You've come so far with Tonks and Luna it's amazing. A lesser person would have put at least one of them down by now so using the Prozac is just another tool to try. No one should judge you for that and if they do, so what? They aren't the ones living with your situation. I second what Nita said, you have gone above and beyond what anyone would of done to keep their pets and provide a safe, secure home for them. What every you decide to do to keep the peace in your house, is your decision. |
| I am so sorry that you are dealing with this. There is absolutely nothing to feel bad or guilty about. If Prozac helps Tonks, then thank the good Lord for Prozac!!!! If she were hypothyroid, you'd give her meds. If she were diabetic, you'd give her meds. Turns out she's wired for anxiety. If meds help her, keep her stable, and lessen her anxiety, then meds are the way to go. As you know, Oscar is a very complicated dog as well. Some of his autoimmune issues have stress components (especially his IBD). There is only so much we could do with behavior modification and training. His tummy has been so much better since taking amitriptyline, an anti-anxiety med. You are like me, and like most folks on this forum. You want to try everything possible to prevent disaster without giving unnecessary meds. However, based upon Tonks' latest "escapades", I think that boat has sailed. It sounds like Prozac is actually increasing her quality of life, which is all you could hope for. Please keep us posted on how she is doing. She is a very lucky gal to have landed with you! Laurie and Oscar |
Alison, I'd be more than happy to come back as an OES in your care.  |
| Allison, I would NEVER judge you for doing what you feel is best for either Tonks or Luna. As others have said, you have done so much for them in the way of training to get them to co-habitate peacefully, and if this helps - great! And as Nita said, if others don't understand, who cares? YOU are the one in charge of their health and well-being, and only you can see how they interact and what works or doesn't work. No one training or remedy works on every dog. Each situation has to be taken in its own light and you and Adam are the only ones who can do that for Tonks and Luna. Good luck, and keep us posted on her progress.  |
| Your a good mumma alison and I admire you for all that you are doing With homeopathic approach sometimes it works well other times not, eg. when the girls were in full heat and Syd ended up a nut case, that worked for me with having him not so stressed out and eating still and not every brain cell in his head disfunctional   Another friend I recommended it too with her boy had the opposite affect so it is in the long term haul of things finding what is right that suits your dog and its needs.  Dont ever knock what you are doing with tonks, your under vet guidence and if you read up on prozac it is used a lot for dogs to ease symptoms while re-training and working on the underlying issues. Not a long term solution which I am sure the vet has advised but a helpfull tool to hopefully a better situation with tonks and your entire family in the longer term of things. Keep the updates happening find this interesting and also dont pander to her not eating, as you said the hot weather, treat her like normal and dont turn her into a prima dona with special food while on prozac. No dog would ever starve themselves if no underlying medical issues which so far your vet has cleared. So whatever they normally have both the girls keep it the same and when she is right she will eat, that way you are not creating another problem with fussy eating. |
lisaoes wrote: Not a long term solution which I am sure the vet has advised but a helpfull tool to hopefully a better situation with tonks and your entire family in the longer term of things. Lisa, we don't usually run into this, but my rescue dog has taught me there are OES out there who are wired such that behavioral modification may never be able to overide their underlying anxiety or whatever the issue is. I don't know much about prozac or any other medical approach for that matter - we tried a couple, though not prozac, and they had no effect on her - but if there are meds out there that can safely be used long term that were effective in her case, she'd be on them for life if that's what it took to improve her quality of life. Kristine |
| Allison... Judging you??? OH, hon....my thoughts are the same as everyone else's...You have done so much for theses two pups!! I do know what you are going through, as Coz (beardie) is my DWI dog, remember??? And yes, I too will do whatever it takes to make him the happy, relaxed dog I know he can be. Coz was on prosac from about 1 yr to 5 yr old. It helped 'take the edge' off of his issues. I think that maybe her dose needs to be reduced and obviously so does your vet. Hopefully this will take care of her appetite. to all of you!!! Keep us posted!!! |
| Allison From seeing your dogs at sheepiepalooza (a few back) and your posts on the forum you have done everything and more for your dogs!! I have a highly wired sheepie girl Molly. We adopted her sight unseen and she was a nervous barking nellie. She paced for 6 mos and then never settled in well. Everytime I took her out she woo wooed at everyone and everything. The trainers I used (yep two) said it was an anxious bark She was uncomfortable in her own skin. She never bit (bit is the queen witch here) She loved kids and plays well with other dogs We trained and trained. My vet knows me well and sees all the dogs often (she is a mobile vet and comes to the house) We decided to try clomipramine 25 mg She takes 50 in the am and 25 in the PM She is a happier dog (still a she witch!!) but we love her so we would have done anything for out peanut. Everyone loves her (even before the medication) I call her my crazy girl!!! We all do what we need to to keep our family safe and happy. Medications were made for a reason. Sometimes all the behavior modification in the world dosen't help with out medication (humans too) I think what you are doing is fine. As for eating Maybe just add some canned dog food . and the dose may need to be adjusted Can you get a RX for the prozac in the lower dose for 2 x a day??? Hang in there |
Cindy, great idea on the canned food. Oscar has never had a problem with his appetite, unless he has pancreatitis, but my SIL's Goldendoodle was a picky, picky eater. I gave her Oscar's kibble, which he ate for awhile and then back to the old "nose in the air". He wasn't just thin, but underweight, so I gave her Oscar's canned food. That was over a year ago and he still LOVES it. He is still on the thin side, which is great for a dog of his size (largest Goldendoodle I have ever seen  - he's 90 lbs and lean), but he is definitely at a healthier weight.Even though Tonks' weight looks like less of an issue based upon her previous summer weight loss, it's still good to keep an eye on it. Anytime a dog loses weight quickly, it's time to evaluate. Could easily be a combo of the meds and the time of year, but I know that you and your vet are on top of it. Hope Tonks continues to improve. Laurie and Oscar |
| Alison I haven't time to read all the posts thoroughly. Good luck, I hope you can sort the half a capsule thing. I wouldn't stress too much if it's not exactly half/half as long as you give the same split capsule morning and evening ie Tonks?? gets one complete dose over the day. Not two small halves one day and two large the next. Hope that makes sense, you want it to be close to half but if it's a proper daily dose then slightly off half probably won't make a huge difference. Hang in there and if it is the Prozac affecting appetite there is usually another option to try down the track. I'm speaking from human medication perspectives here, but with antidepressants in humans it's try them for 6 weeks if negative side effects are manageable before you decide to try something else. Often things really settle down over that time but if not frequently a slightly different drug will work out fine. Keep us posted. I'll check in when I can. |
| We were told it could take 6 weeks, so we're prepared for it to take a while to see results, and we know that at the end of the 6 weeks we may have to adjust the dosage to see if we get better results. Tonks' appetite came back for the right food- so I think its more her being picky than the drugs now. I'm humoring her with this new food, but only because I don't want her to drop anymore weight than necessary. But I'll get her back to her normal food when we're past messing with her dosage. We are doing half in the morning and half at night. Its tough to cut them; one have invariable skitters across the counter and leaves a trail of powder everywhere. I'm using pill pockets to sort of mop up all the dust so the dose remains close to right. The first day we split the dose Tonks tried to start an altercation with Luna- it was extremely short lived and no harm was done, but I was discouraged. Then later, she got less than 3 houses down the block on our walk when she tried to fight with other dogs on walks. She's not done that in years. I think a good deal of it has been that I've been lax in walking her with this heat- she seems to feel it much worse than Luna. So she's out of practice with her manners. But again, I was really discouraged that she wanted to go for those others dogs so very vehemently, and ignored my commands like I wasn't even there. The first couple of weeks on the Prozac we saw some really good results- miraculous, even. But now I have to wonder if the half doses 2X a day isn't making it easier for her to process, and therefore overcome the effects. I'll know more when I talk with the vet. I'd like to add, for the record, that Luna is an angel. And to think that 3 1/2 years ago when we got the girls, we thought Luna was our aggressor! Just goes to show how easily this stuff can be mis-undertood! |
| Maybe talk to your vet again about the dose as it sounds like maybe it's the heat and fighting that is affecting her appetite. Saves halving capsules, by the way don't they pull apart like antibiotic ones?? The vet can advise you on how long a dose takes to get into the system and then you can decide whether a morning or night time dose will be best based on effect on mood, drowsiness etc. Tell me to keep my advice to myself and ignore this if it is just making life more complicated. I was thinking about your story before. Sounds like Tonks and Tiggy have the same temper. Tiggy is everyone's buddy unless another dog has a go at her and then she is a demon. It's like she sees red and snaps and then it's on BIG time. She's done it twice to Rastus when they were playing and he accidentally bit her ear. Now he won't play and she can't figure out why. And she did it once when a little terrier went for her face as she ran up to say hello. I grabbed two big handfulls of hair and dragged her away. In her defence she had a small cut under her eye where the terrier bit her and he came away looking like father Christmas with a long white beard. A big mouth full of Tiggy's face hair. In the terrier's defence Tiggy did scare the pants off him by running up to say "hello". I'm told he's a dog who is known for just attacking other dogs when they go up to him though. It is amazing to see Miss Jeckyl and Hyde though. It's a split second flip from little Miss Sunshine to Miss Demon from Hell.  |
| Mim; I really appreciate all the ffed-back; so thank you! Tonks is so damned weird. She has really specific triggers. If we're at the dog park and a little dog were to run up and grab her face she'd be thrilled. She adores little dogs- she likes them way too much, way too roughly in fact. But I know she'd love what you described, as it happened once. A boston terrier puppy raced up, grabbed Tonks' face, and ended up swinging from Tonks' ears. It was the cutest thing ever, and Tonks was so happy that a tiny dog wanted to wrestle with her. The were the best of dog park friends back when we still went. Even when that puppy grew up, he'd greet Tonks by racing up to her from the other side of the park and using her head as a platform to bounce off of. That little dog really had spunk! No- oddly enough Great Danes trigger Tonks; they're so submissive that she thinks she can bully them. And Australian Shepherds are another trigger; she successfully bullied a puppy once, so ever since she goes for the whole darned breed. That's why I was so excited when she DIDN'T fence fight at the kennel that first week on Prozac; the dogs on the other side of the fence were a pair of Australian Shepherds. I usually have to be careful with Tonks around puppies- she senses submissiveness and takes advantage of that. The few puppies that she has gotten along with are always ones that have tremendous spirit or confidence and aren't afraid of her size. Then she's in heaven. I think she's ultimately a very scared dog, and she seeks to make herself feel more in control by dominating weaker dogs and her sister, because her sister allows it. And when she meets a small dog or a puppy that wants to rough house with her, she's so excited because she doesn't feel at all threatened by their size, so they make good playmates for her. We've done so much training- we did the Agility classes in the hopes that it would boost Tonks' confidence. We've done Obedience in the hopes of reigning her in that way. Our trainer wants us to try Herding, thinking that if we can get her to dominate appropriate things, and attach commands to it, then we can command her to NOT do it. We just keep trying things, and right now we are trying Prozac. Tonks- I love her tremendously. But not only is she a problem child, she's a damn drain on my savings account!!!!  |
| I have absolutely no experience with dog aggression, so I just wanted to send you hugs. Allison, all I can say is that not many would have put in the time, money, and effort into making Tonks the best canine citizen she can be. Prozac might not be the answer, but another medication just might do the trick. Laurie and Oscar |
| Alison you are noticing some of the same things I'm seeing in Tiggy. I think Tiggy likes little dogs because she can scare them into running and she is obsessed with chasing. Her favorite breed is Staffordshire terrier - they're small and all the ones she's met have adored being chased and have been young with stamina. Tiggy was in heaven!!! They staffies ran and ran in a circle and Tiggy chased and chased. Her best effort was when the staffy went to the large mud puddle as it was hot. By the time they were both exhausted I was hoarse from shouting and covered in mud splatters from head to toe. Tiggy was just covered in mud. The staffy's owner still apologises to me but with a huge grin on his face every time we see them and it was 2 years ago. Let us know how you get on with the prozac.  |
| Thanks for posting so honestly, as the new owner of a sheepie. I sometimes feel lost with all of these issues that keep coming up, and I appreciate coming here and reading how others are handling things! |
pattycake wrote: Thanks for posting so honestly, as the new owner of a sheepie. I sometimes feel lost with all of these issues that keep coming up, and I appreciate coming here and reading how others are handling things! Patty, what's being described is not typical OES behavior, as Allison has so often pointed out. This is supposed to be a confident, outgoing breed, good with other animals, kids, the works. Kristine |
| What Kristine said! But OES can be single minded, and independent, which can result in them sometimes being tough to train. We've gotten quite a few perfectly lovely dogs into rescue for this reason; people that threw in the towel rather than persevere. Keep at it, stay strong, and know we'll always be here if you need support, information, advice, or just someone to listen to your frustrations! And in the odd case that you DO have a wonky sheepie, like me? Its pretty rare that there are NO routes to take to help you and your pupper! I think I'm living proof of "what do we try next?". And people are always surprised when I tell them about Tonks and Luna's undesirable behaviors, and I respond that its because we work so hard to resolve them that people don't often see them. Off course when people ARE a witness to it, they go: "oh. THAT'S what you are talking about." and they go on loving my dogs, knowing that its something we work with constantly, to keep under control and out of the public eye. |
Mad Dog wrote: pattycake wrote: Thanks for posting so honestly, as the new owner of a sheepie. I sometimes feel lost with all of these issues that keep coming up, and I appreciate coming here and reading how others are handling things! Patty, what's being described is not typical OES behavior, as Allison has so often pointed out. This is supposed to be a confident, outgoing breed, good with other animals, kids, the works. Kristine I totally understand that, I did quite a bit of research before we adopted Patty, I think the conditions that we got her in were pretty dire, I wasn't sure if she would live. Found out later she came from a puppy mill in MO that is being sued by multiple people for sending puppies that died within days of arrival! Then she ended up in a home that wasn't such a great environment, (I'm always a little careful about what I say here incase her former momma is reading this) I wasn't fully prepared for some the issues she came with but with help and support we are really doing great! I love that silly dog so much some days it brings tears to my eyes. Maybe some day we will get an OES from a reputable breeder and find out from the start what a wonderful temperent they have but for now I am just so grateful to know that I am not alone in this. Sorry, didn't want to hijack your original post, it sounds really hard to have two doggies that fight, it sounds like you are handling things very very well! |
pattycake wrote: [ I totally understand that, I did quite a bit of research before we adopted Patty, I think the conditions that we got her in were pretty dire, I wasn't sure if she would live. Found out later she came from a puppy mill in MO that is being sued by multiple people for sending puppies that died within days of arrival! Then she ended up in a home that wasn't such a great environment, (I'm always a little careful about what I say here incase her former momma is reading this) I wasn't fully prepared for some the issues she came with but with help and support we are really doing great! I love that silly dog so much some days it brings tears to my eyes. Maybe some day we will get an OES from a reputable breeder and find out from the start what a wonderful temperent they have but for now I am just so grateful to know that I am not alone in this. Sorry, didn't want to hijack your original post, it sounds really hard to have two doggies that fight, it sounds like you are handling things very very well! Hijack away! I post for help, but I also post so that others can hopefully learn from my own experiences! I'm glad if what we are going through can help you out! And I'm with you- I love my poorly bred monsters oh-so-much! But next time I'm going to get the most amazing, best bred, best temperment sheepdog money can buy. I'll always help with rescue, and I'll probably get a rescue dog at some point. But I can't help wonder: "What if I'd spent all this training time on a dog that could be shown in a ring?!?" I'm STILL waiting for Tonks to normalize, (and my health to normalize) so that we can start doing Agility classes with our end goal being competition. I think Tonks will be GREAT at it... if we can get her to a point where I trust she can behave herself in an environment with a ton of other dogs. |
| ...just a much over due update. Tonks was upped to the next level of prozac this week. We had an incident, and she bit Luna in the eye. Luna's fine, but Tonks put a nick in her eyelid and a scratch on her cornea. I freaked out BIG TIME. I saw blood in Luna's eye socket and thought she'd lost the eye. I was a WRECK getting Luna to the ER vet. but she' healing well and Tonks gets more drugs. I'll let everyone know how it goes in another few weeks! Fingers crossed!!!! |
| I am so sorry to hear that you are still struggling to find balance for Tonks. Don't you just wish you could peek into that brain and figure out what is going on? Understand how Tonks sees the world, and what is triggering her reactions? Poor thing. Poor Luna. Poor you! I hope that an increased dose of Prozac does the trick. If not, there might be other meds out there that can help. With humans, sometimes it takes trying a few different anxiety/depression meds to find the right one that does the trick. Maybe it is the same for dogs. Fingers crossed here in Illinois..... Laurie and Oscar |
Allison, I am soooo sorry to hear about Luna's eye. Can't imagine how upsetting it would be to see that happen to her.  I really hope you can get Tonks sorted out.  |
| So sorry. I hope this increased dosage helps. If not, maybe time to switch drugs...there is bound to be something out there to help her |
pattycake wrote: Found out later she came from a puppy mill in MO that is being sued by multiple people for sending puppies that died within days of arrival! Pattycake, can you tell me who Patty's breeder was? I live in MO and purchased my puppy from a local breeder. I would like to know if it is the same woman, and if so what the story is with her dogs. I have been very pleased with my Millie, but she could be the exception and not the rule. If it is not the same woman I will be relieved. You can post it here or pm me if you'd rather. Thanks. |
| My vet and I talked about the possibility of trying other anti-anxiety meds if the prozac doesn't work. The very difficult part is that to determine its not working, we have to have a dog fight. One of my biggest fears has always been that Tonks will take out one of Luna's eyes, and that I will have been responsible. I feel its my job to make sure that both my dogs are happy and healthy and safe; but this is really a challenge when it comes to the fighting. People have suggested we separate the girls, but Luna adores Tonks, and frets the whole time they are apart. In fact, the minute a fight ends, I send them both to "place", and Luna always goes and sits right next to Tonks, even though they have a half dozen "places" that are acceptable for the command. My girls are the most amazing dogs ever... we just need to settle this one thing once and for all, and I know we can do it. I just worry about the consequences of finding a solution taking too much time.  |
Darth Snuggle wrote: In fact, the minute a fight ends, I send them both to "place", and Luna always goes and sits right next to Tonks, even though they have a half dozen "places" that are acceptable for the command. Wow, your dogs, aside from the fighting, are really well trained!  You've done so much with them, so much more than I have been doing with Mady. I hope the Prozac is and continues to work. |
| Allison, what about putting Luna in doggles to protect her eyes. Sort of like sports googles for people. It might buy you some time while you get Tonks meds straightened out. It will take some time for her to get used to wearing them, but they can learn to tolerate anything. Ben had surgery on one of his legs. We had to put his leg in a plastic bag before we let him outside. He learned to lay down before going outside and on coming back in, just so we could easily get the back on and off. It was funny to see him do it after all the bandages came off - he just thought it was what he had to do forever. lol If Prozac doesn't work for her, try another one. |
| It's really admirable all that you're doing to resolve the situation. Those two cute girls are lucky to have you. Hope you find a solution soon to ease your worries. |
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