Introducing Lolly, and Please Help Us
I've been lurking around this forum for a while now and have talked to a few of you. After months of research and waiting, our Lolly finally came home yesterday! She is so beautiful and she gets so much attention everywhere she goes. We took her to the vet this morning and heard some bad news. We noticed that she is breathing very fast even at night when she is sleeping with the AC on. The vet said she has heart murmur, level 2 to 3. We are so worried and don't know what to do. She also had a minor vaginal infection. The vet gave us some cream and suggested that we see a cardiologist, which will cost almost 500 dollars here in NYC. I didn't really have a good impression of the vet to be honest. The staff kept passing Lolly around and one of the vet guy even said oh i am going to take her downstairs to show her off. I mean I know she is cute, but come on, it's not like this is the first time they see a cute puppy. I just felt like they could have handled things more professionally. The vet herself also seemed a bit distracted by Lolly's cuteness. I had to point things out to her a few times before she looked more carefully. I called the breeder and a few others. It seems like a lot of puppies have heart murmur and eventually it'll go away. I am really hoping this is the case but will try to get a second opinion from another vet. Please give us your opinion and let us know what we should do. THANKS SO MUCH!!!! Here's a picture of Lolly on the train ride back  Rachel |
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| I don't have much experience with heart murmurs, although both my hubby and I have each had one all our lives, and we've been told it's nothing. One of our dogs developed one, but after the ultrasound of his heart we were told he had a lot of life left in that heart. He was eight at the time, and passed away two years later of something completely unrelated. So not all heart murmurs are horrible. That being said, if you weren't completely thrilled with this vet I'd go to another one for a second opinion. If the second one sees it the same way I think the next step is to go for more comprehensive testing. I'd hesitate to simply take the breeder's word over two vets that the pup will grow out of it. It's not a HUGE murmur, but it sounds like it's about halfway up the scale. I'd check things out quickly, and keep in touch with the breeder. And thanks for sharing the picture, she's adorable. Good luck to you both. |
| Some puppies will have what is called an "innocent" murmer when the breeder takes them to the vets at 8 weeks of age for their vaccines. Very rarely I have had Grade 1 & 2 murmers at that age, and they have all disappeared when the new owners had them to the vets at 12 weeks for their second set of vaccinations. The breeder should have told you about this, as I am sure their vet heard it as well just so that you were not surprised with that news when your vet told you about it, and so you could have informed your vet to listen carefully as the breeders vet noticed a murmer. I do not like the fact that your vet is recommending a cardiologist at that age. In my opinion, if the murmer has not disappeared by the time your pup is 6 months old then it is no longer a possibility that it is innocent, and then I would agree, you will need to see a specialist. |
| Welcome to the forum. Lolly is adorable. I think the best thing is to get a second opinion. |
 Welcome Lolly!!!!! |
| I think I just developed one looking at Lolly! Keep us posted and post more photos. Vance |
| Thanks everyone. I think I am going to go to another vet when she is due for her next shots and see if she still has heart murmur problems. Will keep everyone posted. |
| lolly is a doll. you've received great advice. most of us are programmed to believe our doctors know best. think again, not only are second and third opinions sometimes necessary, but researching for ourselves can be a godsend. hopefully, this will help some. The sound a murmur makes depends on when it occurs in the cardiac cycle. Correct auscultation of a puppy's heart at less than 8 weeks of age may reveal a heart murmur. This does not necessarily mean that there is a disease process occurring; however, it may. To define a heart murmur, an often used example is the vibration felt, and the subsequent sound you hear, when you pinch a garden hose between your fingers with the tap fully turned on. What is heard when listening to the heart is a slurring of the normally distinct heart sounds. This may be a continuous slurring, or it may be intermittent at the point of each beat heard. Heart murmurs are graded by intensity of sound, for instance on a scale of 1 to 6. It is not infrequent that one may hear a grade 1 or 2 heart murmurs in a 6-10 week old puppy. Often these murmurs disappear by the time the puppy is 12-18 weeks old, and are therefore termed innocent murmurs. However, murmurs with a greater intensity may mean that there is a congenital heart defect. Most grade 2 or lower will disappear by 18 weeks and the puppy will be fine with no long term or damaging effects. The puppy would be considered healthy and normal by 18 weeks. However, grade 3 usually or higher is a serious problem. cardiac ultrasound exam is by far the most effective method of evaluating heart murmurs, I'd skip things like EKGs to get the ultrasound Exam, if a choice has to be made between tests. A puppy at 8-12 weeks with grade 1 or 2 heart murmur would be considered innocent with the sale pending a clean bill of health by 18 weeks, free of murmur, (NOW GRADE 3 OR HIGHER WOULD NOT). Because of the nature of many heart defects, their detection and classification is extremely important to any breeding program when a grade 3 or higher murmur is detected in more than 1 puppy or the whole litter has a murmur.  |
| Thanks Guest! That was extremely helpful. My breeder called me and gave me her vet's info. I am going to call him and he might want to speak to the vet I went to today. We'll see where this takes us. |
Hello Beautiful Lolly!!!  Welcome from WV!!!  You look so happy to be going to your new home!! |
| Congratulations! She's very cute! I do think you should get a second opinion, and I would go to a board cert. cardiologist but wait till puppy is maybe 16 weeks old or so (ask the cardiologist when would be a good age), and mainly for your own peace of mind. In the mean time every time she pants or something you're going to worry there's something wrong; you'll wake her up out of a deep puppy sleep to make sure she's still breathing - when odds are good she's fine. But till you have it confirmed that she's fine, it'll always be in the back of your mind. Most regular vets are not particularly well-trained in the finer points of listening to hearts and yours is basically saying, this is what I hear, but a cardiologist can give you a better idea of what's really going on. And a cardiologist will not cost you $500 for a simple check - I had an entire litter of eight puppies checked and it didn't cost me that much. If they hear something that concerns them, THEN further testing is needed, and the the cost will mount, yes. But as you've already heard odds are pretty good it's just an innocent murmur. Kristine |
| Hello and welcome to you and Lolly! She is adorable. Hope all is well with Lolly-- |
Welcome Lolly and Rachel from Joliet, IL  Cindy & Teddy |
(My previous post on this thread disappeared!!!!?  )Anyhow, welcome again Lolly and Rachel!!  I love Lolly's smile~ She has that face!! I dunno how to describe it, but it's like star like smily face~I'm sorry abt the murmur trouble you are going through. It must be scary~ Well..... I'm glad you are here and decided to post ad introduce Lolly. You've got some great advice from all the sheepie veterans here and it's truly a great place to hang out.  Please shower us with more pictures of Lolly~ |
| welcome from fl what a cutie girl she is |
| Thanks everyone for the warm welcome. I just made an appointment for another vet this afternoon to get a second opinion. Will let you guys know how it goes. |
| Good! I hope this is really a level 2 and disappears in the next few weeks. Some pups' hearts don't quite form up right away and it takes a few weeks for everything to close up properly. I am reminded of PJ, those who follow NEOESR's site know about PJ. He had a bad prognosis even after surgery.......not exactly what Lolly has. And that scamp is going strong now several years later. So one step at a time......my vet, now nearing retirement.....is convinced wait and see is often the best advice. Unless it's an emergency.......patience...especially with young puppies. Obviously your vet hasn't seen many OES pups! I've yet to see anything but extra cute! |
The new vet said the heart murmur is definitely there, and it's more of a level 3  She also suggest that we do an ultrasound test (non-invasive at all).The breeder is very supportive and agreed to pay for this. The vet said that there is a very high chance that this is just one of those "innocent" puppy heart murmur, but we just want to make sure. |
| Lolly is sooooo cute!!!! Welcome from Arkansas Yucky news! I am sorry you are having trouble with your new baby I'm sure everything will work out. It's a big plus the breeder is supporting you with this though!! |
| Hello Welcome from Michigan Lolly is beautiful. Hope things go well with the new vet. I wanted to give you a name of a Pharmacy that I do mail order for Mattie with. It's Fallon Wellness Pharmacy in Latham NY I know they have another branch in NY also. I get Matties 200.00 dollar meds for 60.00 dollars. plus very reasonable shipping. Hope this helps. Lisa Frakie and Mattie |
| Thanks Lisa! Good to know there's a discount pharmacy for pets. Lolly's second visit to the vet cost me about $250...she had two kinds of worms and we got her some meds. The stool exam cost about 80, the meds about 80 and the visit was 85...her first visit to the vet cost about 100... Maybe it's time to move back to Cali... |
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