Aggression?

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum, however, I check it out weekly, I really like the feedback and answers.

I was wondering if you could help me.

I have a 7 month old Sheepie named Harry. We have taken puppy obedience and we are now working on the next level of obedience.

Harry seems to be fairly easy going however, he does have food agression towards other dogs, but not to me.

One of my problem is this:
He will snap or bite if you pull him away from something he is doing and he does not want to be stopped from doing it. An example is he was on my bed and he knows he's not allowed on my bed, I tried to push him off and he snapped at my hand, I think he was playing but I'm not sure. Another example was my dad was dog sitting, Harry went to my dad's KOI pond to get a drink, my dad grabbed him so he wouldn't fall into the pond and he bit my dad's hand.

Has anyone else ever had these issues. I know sheepies are stubborn, I'm not familiar with sheepie's behaviour as I have always had poodles.

Tina

Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org

Butch did that too when he didn't want to do what we wanted. It took awhile and some maturity and he's gotten much better. He didn't like anyone leading him by his collar, even gently I just kept doing it and finally he decided it was easier to do what I said. When he was eating at first and I knew he'd pee right afterwards I put his leash on while he was eating, he loves his food, then lead him out as soon as he was done. Took a few months but he's much more accepting.

I try not to let him get away with a whole lot cause I'm older and don't need to have a fight with him over everything.

It's worth the money to find a good behaviorist to nip this bud.. It could turn in to a huge problem. Just make sure you take the time to find one who you feel "get's your dog", and who has methods you believe in.

It doesn't nessacerily sound like agression. It sounds like he is entering his "teenage" trying to push you/boss you around stage. He needs to be reminded that he isnt the boss. Reinforce the training he already has 10 fold. Maybe add some new tricks to challenge him too.

Also look into NILF (Nothing In Life is Free) training. It works wonders with most dogs.

My 6 month old, Molly, started showing some aggressive behavior around 4 months in resource guarding around other dogs, but several weeks ago we encountered some similar situations where she was acting out toward humans (i.e. her own mom and dad!). I started doing things strictly by Caesar Millan's rules--so I'm no expert, in fact, I look forward to hearing from others in this forum on this topic.

First, from my research, there are a couple of reasons an OES might exhibit this type of behavior.
1) Confused about their place in the pack
2) Built up energy, which comes in two forms: A) They need to release energy, as any medium level energy breed and B) they're working dogs, so they can feel unfulfilled if they have no "job" to do

So, here's a couple of things that have worked for us...

Again, I know it all sounds a little odd at first--especially to me initially because I never experienced a problem like this with my first dog. As Caesar says in one of his books (paraphrasing obviously), a dog in who considers himself lower in the pack would never growl at or bite the pack leader.

Harry's not being mean; he's likely just confused about where he falls in the pack--which happens SO easily because we shower our sheepies with affection and place them on a little puppy pedestal, it's only natural they decide they must be running the show.

Anyway, to make a long post... um... longer... Molly has done a 180 with the appropriate exercise and boundaries in her life. She's not displayed any aggression whatsoever toward humans again. I was seriously distraught several weeks ago, so the changes have made a miraculous difference in her behavior.

(Oh, and one last thought… It sounds like the incident at the pond, however, could possibly have been only an inadvertent reaction--startled, fear, "fight or flight" response)

Hope this helps and looking forward to hearing what everyone else says. Keep us updated. I’d like to hear how things progress—as I’m obviously not out of the woods yet with Molly Bugs. :wag:

Try to set firm, consistent boundaries and plenty of exercise, but definitely consult a professional if things progress.

Brooke, I agree with you here. I know Cesare is not liked by all, but I have found many of his training methods to be helpful with problem dogs. (Not all, of course that's why we all get to discuss and disagree).

Tina, sounds to me like this guy is challenging you for leadership, "No, make me!" like a spoiled brat. I know you love this wonderful guy in his tuxedo suit, but like an out of control child, he needs to have boundaries set and YOU need to enforce these.....efficiently. Not much talking (they don't understand or reason the same way). Your body language, your "no" message (sound, work, hand clap, whatever). Don't immediately reward.....you let them change their behavior for awhile and then reward.

The NILF method is first they must do something right, then you reward. For example, to keep pup from knocking you over as you put the food bowl down, make him do a few "doggie pushups".....e.g. commands sit.......then down........sit........then down. After several of these done properly he is rewarded with is food.

This are trying times with pups.....teenagers will challenge you on nearly everything. But a strong leader who keeps herself in control and doesn't back down will prevail.

I think that he's jockeying for dominance in some basic, teenage ways and I'd put an end to it. I like the NILF idea. For instance, you said he didn't want to get off the bed. How did he get up in the first place? Did you make him do a sit/stay and then invite him up? Do you say no sometimes and he has to suck it up and take it?

We've had issues like this with our Hudson towards my hubby...never to me. I give Hudson direction. I decide when he comes up on the bed, or shares the sofa with me, and when I decide he needs to leave I say, "Go" and point and he complies.

He climbed all over my hubby and then growls at him when hubby tries to assert himself. So, we changed the rules, hubby stood up to him, and peace returned to our home. Gordon made him sit before doing anything, started saying no sometimes, etc.

And things are great, until Gordon starts to cave and lets Hudson get too big for his britches and then we start all over again. He needs to work on consistency.

You need to firmly establish that all people are the boss of your pup. That will make a huge difference. I will actually stand in silence and look at Hudson and he'll quickly stop whatever he is doing, sit in front of me perfectly still, and then lay down and submit. It's not an aggressive thing from me, just that calm assertive thing that Cesar talks about.

By the way, you never mentioned any problems putting on a leash, but we sure had them...two jumping, hysterical dogs. The SILENCE THING is a magic wand. Instant cure. (I know that was off topic, but I wanted to make the point that whether or not you're a fan of Cesar, some of his stuff really is golden.)

http://flyingdogpress.com/Merchant2/mer ... _Code=BKLT

Finding A Balance: Issues of Power in the Dog/Human Relationship by Suzanne Clothier

"If your goal is a friendship, not a dictatorship, Finding A Balance will help you recognize your dog's cultural needs for leadership and find ways to meet those needs in a holistic and loving way."

it's $4.50...affordable for almost everyone. and short

if you cringe at the word "holistic", this doesn't mean medicine, it means a wide approach to your relationship with your dog, taking many things into consideration, including but certainly not limited to, health. there's no my way or the highway here, there's trust and true respect, not fear, when you build a relationship.

p.s. for only $4.00 more, you can also get The Seven Cs: A Guide to Training & Relationships "Clothier examines these 7 key points of the dog/human relationship: creativity, consistency, communication, congruency, condition, clarity and confidence.

:wag:

Mollys_Mommy wrote:

Understanding boundaries and limitations--Molly now must sit & stay before entering/exiting the house. We do boundary exercises--using no words, but eye contact and using space around us to tell her what we want her to do. This is probably one of the things that could help with the bed situation. Rather than trying to move Harry off the bed with hands, claim the area and stare him down, moving closer toward him ("claiming your space") to make him get off the bed.

You so need to know your dog before you engage in a pissing contest/stare down over territory. An uppity dog pushing boundaries who still has some basic respect for you, yeah, you can get away with that. Try that will a truly dominant dog and you risk provoking an attack - you better hope you have a back up plan and/or a dog with basic bite inhibition drilled into them. Meaning they may make contact but they aren't in it to do damage.

The problem with imitating dogs to get through to your dog, and, yes, I use this basic principle for some things too, is that we are not dogs and most of us simply aren't fluent enough to avoid misunderstandings. All I'm saying is be careful and if things start to escalate rather than get better, seek professional help.

Having said that, my rescue dog - the only dog in my household who would ever lift a lip at me -got upset with me when I told her to get off the sofa last night. She stiffened and growled. She has excellent bite inhibition - it's the reason she's alive - so I uncerimoniously dumped her off the sofa and let Sybil deal with her. Sybil does not take these kinds of transgressions lightly. She is the master of using space and eyes to make her point. Dazz' sofa privileges have been revoked until futher notice. There is no doubt in Dazz' mind that this is the case.

Never underestimate the power of a true alpha bitch. If you don't have one, or aren't naturally one yourself, professional help is not a bad approach. There are usually ways to get past these things while avoiding direct conflict and a good behaviorist can teach you a lot.

The nipping in the bud is darn good advice.

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

I absolutely agree with you, and realize I should have thought that through more. When we "claim space" with Molly, we always go by her body language. I wouldn't start moving forward if she was in an agressive state. In fact, I've never used it when she was being agressive--just when she's being a nosey puppy and in the way (like when she's trying to type on my laptop right now). I should have omitted that from my post. We never even began using that technique until long after equilibrium had been re-established with her (i.e. I wouldn't have done it when she was still challenging us).

Thank you for your post. I appreciate your follow-through.

Mollys_Mommy wrote:

When we "claim space" with Molly, we always go by her body language. I wouldn't start moving forward if she was in an agressive state. In fact, I've never used it when she was being agressive--just when she's being a nosey puppy and in the way (like when she's trying to type on my laptop right now).

That reminds me, totally unrelated to any aggressive displays or anything, that I keep promising myself that with my NEXT puppy I will do more or less what you're describing to hopefully teach her that humans have personal space (!!) Every dog I have thinks they can literally walk all over me :wink:

I had an agility instructor give me an earful after watching me walk Mad as a puppy. She was weaving in front of me and would NOT get out of my way. Think about all the times during the day, and especially when you have multiple dogs, you can barely get from point A to point B in the house for shaggy bodies who see NO reason to move. I've lost count of how many times I've almost taken a header going down the stairs due to this propensity.

Now to remember and follow through... ;-)

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

Never underestimate the power of a true alpha bitch. If you don't have one, or aren't naturally one yourself, professional help is not a bad approach.

I now have a rule that I am not allowed to consume liquids when reading a post by Kristine. I have choked one time too many. This nearly KILLED ME!!

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