I'm stumped and need help!
When we rescued Sammie in Nov 2008, she weighed 75 lbs, her hair was very thin and fly-away. We switched her to Holistic Select dry food (formerly Eagle Pack). She put on some much needed weight and her coat grew in very thick and luxurious. In December 2009, she weighed 92.8 lbs. Vet asked what we were feeding her, and we told him 1-1/2 cups of Holistic Select twice a day, and 2 tbsp. of Nature's Recipe canned food twice a day. He said to cut the dry down to 1 cup twice a day and add some green beans to make up for the decrease. Didn't mention about cutting any of the canned food out. Took her back in March 2010 for shots, and her weight went down to 88.6 lbs. Yay! Keep it up, we were told. So ever since Dec 2009, we've been feeding her 1 cup dry food plus (almost) 1 cup salt free green beans (the can is 14 oz) plus 2 tbsp canned food, twice a day. She does not get biscuits every day, only 1-2x each week as a treat. I thought she was doing good, but I did notice that she seemed bigger. I attributed it to her hair bulk (pretty dumb, huh?). Anyway, we went for her annual visit 2 weeks ago, and from March 2010 to June 2011, she went from 88.6 lbs to 101.6 lbs!!! She GAINED 13 lbs!! She's not a very active dog - doesn't insist on going for long walks and when we do take her, she always acts like she wants to go back right away. Being paranoid from Drez having hip dysplasia, I wondered if her hips/back/knees were bothering her to make her not want to walk so much, so I asked the vet if he could check her for HD without doing an actual xray. He tested her back paws and said they did come back slower than he would have liked and suggested we start her on a chondroitin/glucosamine supplement. He also did a blood work-up on her to test her thyroid - which came back normal. I started her on Flexicose, which is the wonderful supplement I gave Drez for years and which did wonders for her. She hasn't been on it long enough yet to notice any difference, but I'm hopeful it will at least help. And today we had to go back to the vet for her last shot, and I asked them if she could be diabetic. She doesn't drink excessively - in fact, she doesn't drink much at all. She doesn't pee any more frequently. Her stools are always nice and firm, no diarhhea. They did a glucometer reading on her, thinking if it was high they would take more blood to do another work-up. She tested at 93, which they said was normal, not even close to high. SO - I'm stumped! She doesn't overeat, over-drink and has gained 26 lbs in 2-1/2 years!! Without it being a medical problem, could this dramatic of a weight gain be attributed solely to not enough exercise??? Are there any other medical reasons I should be looking for? She's not overly fond of the pool, but I'm determined I'm getting her in there more often this summer. Any ideas/suggestions appreciated, o' wise sheepie friends!! |
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| Oh, I should also say that the vet suggested putting her on a diet food, but I'm thinking - really?? She only eats 2 cups/day now, if I feed her any less or something that has less calories, this dog will start eating the furniture! |
| I am sure others will pipe in but, was her Thyroid a "low normal"? That can still cause thyroid problems even though technically it is normal. Good Luck finding an answer! |
| I second the notion about the "border line low thryoid". My Bowie had a borderline reading and kept gaining weight. Finally he became really lethargic, not his fun face on him, not wanting to play, and actually getting a bit on the agressive side...He was tested and again it came back "borderline low" thryoid. I insisted n starting the meds...We had to adjust it up a few times and I have to tell you, I got a different dog! he was back to his happy self, wanting to play, just the look in his face was happy. He takes Soloxine, 1 and 1/123 tab, twice a day. Made a tremendous difference. He is still a BIG boy, But he isn't gaining anymore weight. He also eats only 2 cups a day. One in the mornign and one in the evening, with some low calorie treats in between. INSIST the Vet do a thryoid panel and INSIST on trying the meds...Hope he feels better soon! |
| Another thought is to have them weigh her again. They have misread the scale a couple of times on my pets over the years. Bailey and Riley are "mature" Sheepies. They get just under a cup of dry food twice a day, with a cup of green beans at each meal. They get two small dog cookies a day, along with Osteo-3 for their joints. The vet was pleased at their vet visit today. Both were 79 lbs, a great weight for their size. I would have sworn Riley was heavier than that. We discussed how hard it is to judge weight on a OES - especially as I keep them in a long coat. Make sure the green beans are salt-free or you coud have some water-weight and blood pressure issues. |
| Can anyone tell me what number represents a "low normal" thyroid reading? All they told me was that it was normal - gave me no numbers. Although obviously I'll do it, I hate to have to do their work for them, ya know? Why wouldn't that information be something they just give to me as the client? I do give her only unsalted green beans, so no worries there. |
Mom of 3 wrote: Another thought is to have them weigh her again. They have misread the scale a couple of times on my pets over the years. This is a great point. One time I went to the vet, the vet tech took Brick for a weight and came back non-chalantly and said he weighed 110 (or maybe she said 120).  I looked at her like she was crazy and told her you may want to re-weigh him and to check the scale. Sure enough, they had it set to kilograms and not pounds. So make sure they have the scale set right. And there's nothing wrong with weight management food. Brick had gotten up to 70 lbs 2-3 years ago. I decided that I had to do something. I switched him to Pro Plan Weight Management and cut the amount back to about 1.5 cups, twice a day. He only gets half a biscuit per day. He now weighs in at around 58-59 lbs (goes up a bit in winter due to less exercize). The vet said he's a nice weight. You can just feel his ribs; he has a nice taper from chest to waist, and real nice tuck-up. She also said he has a nice athletic heart beat.  |
Drezzie's Mom wrote: Can anyone tell me what number represents a "low normal" thyroid reading? All they told me was that it was normal - gave me no numbers. Although obviously I'll do it, I hate to have to do their work for them, ya know? Why would that information be something they just give to me as the client? I do give her only unsalted green beans, so no worries there. I wonder if it is an OES thing that is not common in other breeds?? Maybe vets are not familiar with it being an issue I would also consider sending it to Dr Dodds for her interpretation if it is questionable! I think normal is 1.0 to 4.0 but, I will need to look at my records since my brain is not working right now  If you get a copy of the blood work it will have the norms on it! I am very interested to hear what they say. |
CamVal1 wrote: And there's nothing wrong with weight management food. Brick had gotten up to 70 lbs 2-3 years ago. I decided that I had to do something. I switched him to Pro Plan Weight Management and cut the amount back to about 1.5 cups, twice a day. He only gets half a biscuit per day. He now weighs in at around 58-59 lbs (goes up a bit in winter due to less exercize). You cut him BACK to 1.5 cups twice a day? Sam only gets 1 cup twice a day right now. I can't really give her much less. I agree there's nothing wrong with weight management food, but I'd like to know the caloric, protein, carbohydrate, etc. difference between one cup of Holistic Select and Science Diet, or whatever other "diet" foods there are out there. I'm confused because it's not like I'm feeding her junk food, and she's pooping a good amount (not too little or too much, and nice and firm) every day. This really has me baffled. |
| Aren't there a couple different types of panels to detect thyroid abnormalities? I remember having Clyde tested and the vet said if we didn't get what we expected in one, we'd try another just to be sure? It was awhile ago and I can't remember exactly. |
| You need to talk to Jaci (6girls) about thyroid! She is going through some skin issues with Bumbley Bear. |
| "Normal" thyroid level numbers depend on which lab preformed the testing. Levels can be different between labs so you need to know what each lab's normal ranges are. I'll send you a PM with a copy of Bumble's from Michigan State University's Lab- DCPAH Ask for a copy of the thyroid results so you have it to refer to. Personally, I'd also drop Dr. Dodds a note to see what she thinks of the test results along with the symptoms you're seeing. Ask your vet whether you should repeat thyroid testing in say 3-6 months IF all levels were normal and there are still symptoms. You did the full thyroid profile, not just a T4? A little less than a month ago Bumble was diagnosed as hypothyroid. I've been waiting to see how he does before posting anything but here goes... Dr. Rosser (MSU dermatologist) and Dr. Dodds both think his recurring pyoderma that he's suffered from for 1 1/2+ years will subside in 4-6 weeks.  That a final round of antibiotics should help to clear his pores. The MSU dermatologist believes the pyoderma will clear up but that I'll be left with an itchy dog due to allergies so we'll repeat intradermal and RAST testing this fall (I'll take that!). It's now a waiting game now to see what really happens. The reason I say retest in 3-6 months is because maybe I would have caught it earlier if I had simply said, "Let's retest his thyroid". The symptoms were there. I had asked whether low thyroid was totally ruled out as a cause for Bumble's problems when we were regrouping at one point. I was told yes according to his April 2010 testing. And one of my written questions when we went to MSU back in February was, "Should his thyroid levels or any other hormone/endocrine levels be tested?". I was told no further testing was needed. Hindsight is amazing but really useless unless it helps others. We all did our best based on the facts we had. I just figured that door was totally closed and nailed shut. We only stumbled across Bumble's hypothyroidism diagnosis last month when we did testing to eliminate another possible cause for his recurrent pyoderma (thanks to Kristine who listened to me ramble  ). His T4 came back at <0.4 so we repeated the complete MSU thyroid profile and got the diagnosis. Shortly after, I corresponded with Dr. Dodds to get some her opinion on some things I needed answers to... like whether his ostrich + rutabaga food trial diet could be the cause of his hypothyroidism ("unlikely!") or the specific meds he has taken ("Not often the case."). The MSU vet said the same thing. Dr. Dodds said, "But the OES breed as a whole is highly susceptible to hypothyroidism and heritable autoimmune thyroiditis."So at the very least we have one piece to this puzzle. Bumble's at day 27 on Soloxine and 5 days remaining on Cephalexin. At the moment his skin is clear. It's been such a roller coaster ride... I just don't want to yet again get my hopes up that it's gone for good. Where he used to go outdoors and lie down after running for just a few minutes, he's now on his feet most if not all of the time. He's gone from 93 pounds down to 88 pounds due to his higher metabolism... I feel it's a better weight for him... it's going to depend on his muscle. He seems brighter, happier, more animated. This was from today-   I tried to keep his skin as good as possible and in doing so, people didn't believe there could be a problem. The 2x per week baths for the past 4 months... 1x per week before this kept him from being a gunked up, stinky boy. But his coat also hid painful things like this http://oesusa.com/skinpr1.jpg . There were also other symptoms like discomfort breathing http://oesusa.com/BumblesBreathing.html but I don't the cause... food allergy, other allergy, hypothyroidism... I should have asked Dr. Dodds her opinion. You'll find symptoms at the bottom of the page at the link below... http://www.malamutehealth.org/articles/ ... hyroid.htm I'm not saying Sammie is hypothyroid like Bumble because it may very well be something else... or nothing at all. Maybe just a slower but normal metabolism. Hoping you'll get some answers for your girl. |
| I just had a thyroid panel ran on Bella. I asked for the OFA panel,which does consist of 3 tests. T4 Reference range is 1.4-4.0 Free T4 (Equilibrium Dialysis) Reference range 8-40 TSH Reference range 0.00-0.60 Does state a false positive can occur if the dog had been vaccinated within 30-40 days. I do not know much else except Bella passed her tests. I was giving the reference ranges and to answer who asked about more than 1 test available.Like Kathy wrote,Jaci would be able to help. Yes you should of received a copy of the results,although ours was sent off, because it was for OFA and I got a call from the vet with the results and he faxed me the results, along with a copy came in the mail from OFA. How old is your pup? Robin |
| Here's one difference in labs... Robin mentioned this range- TSH Reference range 0.00-0.60 The MSU lab range was this- Thyroid Stimulating Hormone 0-37 This number was actually very high for Bumble (84) which, along with other low readings on the test, indicated he was truly hypothyroid according to Dr. Rosser and Dr. Dodds. Bumble's Numbers- MSU lab (Diagnosic Center for Population & Animal Health) TT4 8 L (15-67) TT3 0.8 L (1.0-2.5) FT4 3 L (8-26) FT3 2.9 L (4.5-12.0) T4 Autoantibody 12 (0-20) T3 Autoantibody 3 (0-10) Thyroid Stimulating Hormone 84 H (0-37) Thyroglobulin Autoantibody 6 (0-35) So it's important to get your lab's "normal" range. There is an article at this address about reading tests done by Hemopet (Dr. Dodds lab)- http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/HowtoA ... esults.pdf Sometimes a vet will prescribe a Soloxine trial to see how the dog does. You might ask your vet if the following is true and whether it might be of any benefit to Sammie. I now wonder if this was the case with Bumble. But you don't want to keep a dog on thyroid medication beyond the trial if it's not needed. It could cause other problems. Quote: The difficulty in accurately diagnosing early thyroid disease is compounded by the fact that some patients with typical clinical signs of hypothyroidism have circulating thyroid levels within the normal range. A significant number of these patients will improve clinically when given thyroid medication. In such cases, blood levels of the hormones can be normal but tissue levels are inadequate to maintain health, and so, the patient shows clinical signs of hypothyroidism. This situation pertains in selenium deficiency (discussed below). While animals in this category should respond well to thyroid medication, only experienced clinicians are likely to recognize the need to place these dogs on a 6-8 week clinical trial of thyroid supplementation. This approach is safe and clinically appropriate, but it requires rechecking blood levels of thyroid hormones towards the end of the 6-8 week period to assure that the patient is receiving the correct dose of medication. http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-ang ... %20Disease |
| Jaci, Not to get off track, but the pictures of Bumbles are so adorable. He is a beautiful dog and looks like he is having a ball! Robin |
Off topic too...what the heck would Kristine do if we weren't bugging her   We do love you and all your assistance Mad Dog!!!!!!!! Sorry, i just love that nick name for you!!!!!  |
Donner's Mom wrote: We do love you and all your assistance Mad Dog!!!!!!!!Sorry, i just love that nick name for you!!!!! Oh, great...some kind of mad scientist type hiding behind the avatar?   Actually, all I did for Jaci was provide a sounding board. She did all the work, as usual, and I'm learning right along with the rest of you. Love the Bumble pics, btw, he looks fantastic. Not to divert from Sammie. Everything I can think of in terms of explanation has already been expressed by someone so far. I do know of one OES who was porky pretty much all her life and eating next to nothing by most standards and whose thyroid was tested and retested and kept stubbornly coming back normal, yet she remained "fluffy". She happened to stay with me one summer and I actually got quite a bit of the weight off of her just by good old fashioned exercise. She was no kid at the time, so we didn't go crazy, and we went about it gradually, but I got about ten pounds off of her over four months without touching her food intake, which would have made her very, very sad and she was the kind who was really, really hard to resist . She may simply have been what is known as an easy keeper. Walk by the refrigerator, gain three pounds.  Kristine |
| I would definitely start an exercise program,slowly of course, and see if that helps. Please keep us informed. Robin |
| Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I knew I could count on you! Been having an off-feeling day myself today, but I will definitely call the vet to get a full copy of her thyroid test results. Other than the extra weight she's carrying, she's a happy girl. Never aggressive, always wanting attention, afraid of her own shadow - everything just like we first got her. Will keep you informed as I learn more. Thanks again! |
| Sammie sounds like a sweetheart. I hope everything works out and you get back to feeling like yourself, also. Robin |
| I'm glad Kristine and Jaci chimed in on this topic. Too many vets try to skid by with one thyroid test. Asking for the complete results should find out if a more complete panel was done. Did Jaci reference this?? http://www.homevet.com/petcare/Dodds%20on%20thyroid.pdf It's a good overview. I wouldn't be surprised "tubbo" is hypothyroid. Remember Glacier came back to us a whopping blimp and with greenbeans lost A LOT of weight, but it was a thyroid test that took the last 20 off. She even dropped to sub weight, she was showing ribs and we had to cut the thryoid meds down to once a day. She happily chunked up 7 more lbs. and has held it for a year or two now. |
| Hope you feel better tomorrow Chris! |
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