Putting down deposit for a puppy
I spoke to the breeder on the phone a few times and have been emailing back and forth a lot with her. She seems like a very devoted and responsible breeder and is not about making money at all. I also asked her about any potential health problems with her dogs and she said that none of her dogs have ever gotten sick before. Although she's not listed on the OESCA website, I feel like she is trustworthy and I've read a lot of reviews of her online and they are all positive. Thanks for reading and I appreciate everyone's help. |
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| You have to go with your gut. Do the research and hope everything is successful. My boy is not from a recommended breeder however I did a ton of research and background checks and felt comfortable with our decision. I had a list of 4 breeders and narrowed it down to one. Now they may not be the best but they sure produced a great dog. The best thing you can do is ask your breeder for references and speak to those people. Hope this helps. |
Thanks so much for the quick response! Your oes is so beautiful  |
| You will find a lot of difference responses here and emotions. Like, Scott's post, I did not go with a recommended breeder either. I tried and contacted people from the OES list, but, I either didn't hear back or they were not breeding to my schedule. I had reasons as to why I wanted a puppy when I got Dahlia (which was in February) She is a wonderful, smart, puppy and we are so happy to have her in our lives. I guess I also went with a Backyard Breeder as did many other people on these boards. My other OES lived to 15 years old with virtually no health issues and she was bought as a puppy at a mall pet store. She was a wonderful dog and loved by everyone. You just never know. Just go with your gut. Keep this in mind.....You mention that she is not in it for the money. Well, that simply isn't probably true. OES pups tend to have fairly large litters and if you calculate that by the money she is asking and as a super-breeder like this one, then she is certainly making good money. You will notice that she breeds a lot, which is why I consider it a super-breeder. Just be careful what you believe and what is true and not true. Her ultimate goal is to sell you a puppy and OES puppies are just adorable and lovable. If you live close enough, please consider visiting. If not, then I would speak to at least 2-3 other families who have received a puppy from this breeder and interview them carefully. Best of luck! Ask lots of questions and do a lot of searching on this website. You will find there to be tons of helpful information. |
Welcome to the forum Go Bears!  I don't know anything specific about this breeder, but seem to remember the name having come up on more than one occasion. You might try using the SEARCH function, and type in the breeder's name to see what info there might be. I would also recommend reading the "sticky" notes and announcements at the top of the "Getting A Puppy" section on how to choose a reputable breeder, and also the one on "negative experiences with backyard breeders". I'm not saying that's what this breeder is, by the way, just that there are some useful hints there on how to tell what your dealing with, and some cautionary tales worth listening to. Good luck, and keep us posted on your search! |
Thanks Shari! That was very helpful. I actually live in NYC (we're neighbors...sorta) so probably won't be able to visit the breeder but she's been sending me updates and posting pictures on her website. The pups are 5 days old as of today and they all look the same right now  |
| I personally do not know this breeder. I did check out the website..... I personally would not be looking there to get a puppy. Several reasons... These are definitely BYB, pet quality puppies.....and I possibly would be OK w/ that. I have several rescue dogs who came originally from BYB people and they are really sweet dogs. However, I paid a few hundred dollars to support the rescue that ended up with them for various reasons. However - this place is more than NOT in it for the money - they would be TOTALLY in it for the money.  They have dogs they own and just keep having puppies....again, not quite the end of the world...  The part that gets me mad is they do NO testing...granted, testing never used to be around, and puppies were born, and people had some nice dogs. However, it seems really irresponsible to breed and NOT use the help that's out there. Not doing testing, and then charging $1000.00 for a puppy is robbery! Do you know that there are serious breeders who breed only if they can make the breed better and safer health-wise : they do virtually every sort of medical testing on the parents before breeding, and then on the puppies, and they don't charge that much more than what these puppies are going for?? This is a huge money making enterprise, disguised as idyllic rolling Iowa countryside "I love my dog". Again - I don't know these dogs or people, but the way they run their business (and yes, this is a business) is nothing I would care to fund or perpetuate. It just is not ethical or responsible dog breeding.  |
| You get what you pay for. And in the case of someone who tells you they have not had any problems with the dogs they breed, you will probably get less than what you pay for. If you breed, at some point you will have some kind of problem. It is not an exact science. Most of the time, breeders who tell you this are technically telling you the truth. Why? Because they aren't doing the testing necessary that will spot these problems. End of sermon. |
| Hi, on Memorial Day weekend, there is a dog show in Freehold, NJ. http://www.raudogshows.com/html/upcoming-shows.html You may want to check it out and talk to a few OES people showing there. Meet their dogs after they are done showing, etc. |
| This has come up before: http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28093&hilit=rolling+acres http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=29567&hilit=rolling+acres This is certainly NOT a "go with your gut" thing if you are here asking questions about this "breeder". This is a 'use your brain' thing. All puppies are cute. Anyone can tell you anything about puppies they have bred. How will you know if you are being told something even close to the truth? Is this person doing any testing AT ALL?? How will you verify that? You came here asking for a reason. Unfortunately I don't have anything good to tell you. I don't mean to pee in your cornflakes, but some of the things that could happen are horrific and I'd really hate to see that happen to one more person- (or puppy) Hip problems, for example, are horrible especially in a dog that hasn't reached 1 yr. My dog is withering away before my eyes, is in constant pain and it breaks my heart every single day. All you need to do is read a bit here. Start with some of the topics in the Getting a Puppy section. There may be something there that will be more helpful. Shellie |
| I have heard of several people that purchased a pup and had it flown in, just to sit on the floor at the airport and cry when they see what arrived. You will receive a lot of advice here.... but in the end you will be the one that ends up with the pup you pick.... you will be the one that is extremely happy or sad with the decision you make.... Hopefully you will be getting a puppy that will grow up to be a beautiful healthy dog and be with you as part of your family for many years. Take time to check out your pup. You do have time to visit the breeder. I dont care if its a OESCA, Great Home Breeder, or a BYB.... it all boils down to the breeder.... and what they produce. Visit the pup, take a good look at the mother and father.... the parents are the best clue as to what you will be getting. If you can view Grandparents, Great Grandparents...etc... other offspring from the same mother or father or both.... Testing is GREAT but it does not guarantee a perfect pup. And last but surly not least... ask to view the Guarantee.... How long is the pup covered... if its less than 1 year.... run..... if it does NOT cover HIPs.... EYES.... HEARING...for at least a year run...... look at this warranty long before you make any decision... and make sure the Warranty will replace the pup or give you a total refund... and you should be the one to decide.... What really separates a poor breeder from a good breeder is how that breeder responds after the sale...especially if there is a problem.... There are some wonderful breeders out there.... you will get all kinds of advice...but in the end you will make the decision.... Take a day or two and visit the breeder ..... And keep in mind... if its a great breeder... most or all of the pups will be spoken for by the time they are born... You wont have a pool of pups to pick from. |
| THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH! I will try to find out more from the breeder and talk to people who's gotten puppies from her before. |
| GoBears, Did you say you are in NYC? I am on Long Island...There are a few referral breeders not far. A few in NY and a few in NJ. I don't know much about your breeder mentioned but I do know Iowa is unfortunately known as one of the puppy mill capitols. Now, yes, many people get pups from "back yard" breeders. And some are lucky in that they get nice tempered, healthy pups that grow into nice dogs who live a nice long life. But for every one of those, there are hundreds of others that get their cute little puppy, love them to death and find out they have hip dysplacia, intestinal issues, allergies and other ailments that can truly eat through your pocketbook. Buying from a referred breeder lessens the risk of that happeneing as thei entire line is tested and tested and tested to avoid the heridatary diseases in OES... It is a pure heart ache to get your little ball of fur and watch them get sick early in their life. I would urge you to not roll the dice on this one and select from the breeder referral located on the Old English Sheepdog of America site. |
| Thanks for the compliment. You can also read the thread "I am new". Everyone was so helpful as you are witnessing first hand. There is tons of advice on that thread. The most important thing you read so far from one of the other posters is the testing. One of the breeders we almost went with gave me their akc numbers and we could not follow the family tree. Also the the male he was breeding was too young and therefore too young to be tested. This was huge and a deal breaker. He may have produced great dogs but not at my expense. Our breeder covered most of the bases. Hope this helps. |
| Just something to think about. How will you know who the "breeder" gives you as a reference isn't her sister or paid friend? |
| Can I ask - what is looking at the parents and grandparents going to do to tell the OP anything at all? It may point to the dogs having been groomed but that's about all. Unless someone is very experienced, or a vet or a judge, you probably aren't going to tell much at all about the pups to come. |
Shellie wrote: Can I ask - what is looking at the parents and grandparents going to do to tell the OP anything at all? It may point to the dogs having been groomed but that's about all. Unless someone is very experienced, or a vet or a judge, you probably aren't going to tell much at all about the pups to come. By looking at the grandparents, you can tell what the lines are steadily producing and what to expect at an older age, such as size, thickness of coat (whether it is short or long, thickness & density show thru), temperament of the adults. If the breeder is breeding properly (line breeding, then going out to bring in some new blood so as not to breed too tightly & then line breeding back into their own lines so as to set the qualities they went out to get) the dogs will look pretty consistent in the shape of their body, their size, the structure of their head etc. Breeding too closely can improve on the good qualities & make them stronger but you are also taking a chance of multiplying anything bad in the background (such as health issues, bad bites etc.) This is why you need to look to the grandparents & beyond. For instance, it takes 7 generations to breed out a bad bite. That means at least 14 years or more from the time it first appeared before you can be reasonably sure it won't show up again. This is why you need to learn how to read pedigrees & go with a breeder that can show you a 5 generation pedigree of the parents & explain it to you. I know most people will say "but I just want a nice pet". I hear that 50 times more than I hear "I want a nice show dog" or even 20 times more than "I just want a healthy dog". Please understand that a responsible, reputable breeder will not be breeding just to produce "some nice pets". They already know when they choose their pick bitch from the new litter what their plans are as far as who they are planning on breeding her to when she is old enough (at least 2 years of age) & has passed her health clearances. They are carefully selecting dogs to use in their breeding program so they can consistently produce healthy, conformationally & temperamentally correct dogs. This means they are studying pedigrees, doing health testing on potential breeding stock & most importantly seeing & asking to go over with their own hands any potential mate for their dogs. This means asking questions & researching the background of that particular dog too. This holds true too for the stud dog owners. I have refused stud service to someone who has asked for it because the health clearances were not done or the pedigrees were not compatible. You should have a lot of questions to ask a breeder you are talking to. And a reputable, responsible breeder who is in this for the right reason will have more questions to ask of you than you do of them. |
Marilyn.... excellent job explaining.  I did go and look at the breeder in question. She has 3 litters on the ground right now... all three were born within 15 days of each other. Total of 25 pups..... This may be a great breeder with great pups... but a visit would be a must before any deposit was given.  |
Sheepdog Lover wrote: I did go and look at the breeder in question. She has 3 litters on the ground right now... all three were born within 15 days of each other. Total of 25 pups..... .  |
| I really hope GOBEArs choose a different breeder...Just reading what Mattie the rescue is going through is enough to make anyone select a reputable breeder...Testing is sooo important... |
| Marilyn, of course I know there are tons of things to learn by looking at the parents, grandparents... the point I was trying to make is that the ORIGINAL POSTER isn't going to learn those things by looking. Quote: Unless someone is very experienced, or a vet or a judge, you probably aren't going to tell much at all about the pups to come. I think you totally misunderstood me. Shellie |
Shellie wrote: Marilyn, of course I know there are tons of things to learn by looking at the parents, grandparents... the point I was trying to make is that the ORIGINA POSTER isn't going to learn those things by looking. Quote: Unless someone is very experienced, or a vet or a judge, you probably aren't going to tell much at all about the pups to come. I think you totally misunderstood me. Shellie Actually, no, I didn't misunderstand you. I took it as a chance to explain how even someone that considers themselves a novice at this kind of thing can take advantage of seeing grandparents etc. Sometimes newbies & novices & companion people can be quite observant if they know what they are looking for. |
Actually, it seemed more like a jab at me-but whatever.  You're right that even a novice (such as myself) could tell a great deal. But then you probably should start with the breeder herself before you even consider the pups. |
| And READ your contract before you sign it! And there should be a contract stating what you the breeder is responsible for and what is expected from the breeder of the puppy buyer as well. A good breeder will take back one of their breeding's pups at anytime. Everything should be spelled out in writing in todays world. It just removes all problems. |
| Do yourself a huge favor, and walk away from this breeder. Go directly to the OESCA Breeder Referral List (not that it's perfect) and dedicate some time to researching a handful of credible breeders. Your chances of getting a puppy that will exhaust your emotions, time and bank account from a BYB are dramatically greater than getting a healthy puppy with established lineage from an established breeder who embraces the OESCA Code of Ethics. |
| And think of it this way as well......... the amount you pay for a puppy up front, will well give you a healthier chance of not putting even more out over the years. |
| Hope she listens to all this great advice. I can speak from experience with my Gigi. The high medical costs... |
| Even when breeders and buyers try to do everything right, there are no guarantees that a puppy will be healthy. These are living, breathing creatures and there will always be an element of the unknown when you bring two dogs together to make puppies. The contract should spell out exactly what will happen if there is a genetic condition... require a copy of the contract early on so you can walk away before falling in love with a puppy if the terms aren't inadequate or only favor the breeder. My opinion from the buyer's perspective... Buyers need to purchase from breeders who have taken the time/money to OFA rate for hips, thyroid, possibly elbows and also to CERF eyes. Other things too if they have been known to affect the lines. When puppy prices are in the $800-$1,000+ price range and none of this has been done and the breeder doesn't show, compete or work with their dogs in public in some way, what are you getting for this high price? I firmly believe an unbiased 3rd party rating on health (OFA with acceptable test results) will at least lessen the odds of your new puppy having a genetic condition. But breeder knowledge and dedication is also important. Because of this, I purchase health insurance that states it will cover genetic or hereditary health problems soon after I bring in a new puppy/dog... whether it's a puppy from an OESCA breeder or a dog from rescue. If the dog has a preexisting condition that prevents him/her from obtaining health insurance, I still take out accident insurance. I don't want the high cost of veterinary care to prevent me from providing the level of care I feel I need to provide. Here's a list of things to consider... I still haven't finished it  ... http://untilyoufindme.com/Buying-An-Old ... -Puppy.htm |
| Love the link Jaci you have done a most amazing job so far in covering all things in regard to a precious OES baby for people to peruse Easy to understand and covers a lot in such wonderfull detail. WELL DONE  |
6Girls wrote: Here's a list of things to consider... I still haven't finished it ... http://untilyoufindme.com/Buying-An-Old ... -Puppy.htm Jaci, this is really great. You should consider starting a new post with this as people may not find it buried on this thread. |
| If this helps I have all rescued dogs. All most likely from haphazard breeding if not terrible breeding NOW I could have paid 2,500 for a nice well bred dog Guinness has had hip surgery an THR and then a FHO 15 grand my molly has anxiety issues takes medication Bruiser (non OES a G) had spine surgery 10 grand I just adopted a beautiful black GSD (I love sheps and black dogs) he has EPI probably a food allergy and has cost me over 2 grand and is only 5 mos. These dogs were my choice but I am thinking my next dog will come from a breed of america listing and/ or a mutt from the pound. Yes you can buy a haphazered breed dog for less but in the long run you are taking a chance I am lucky my dogs have no aggression issues. Just my humble (and broke ) opinion |
| Thanks Lisa and Deb. It still needs some work plus the checklist but I figured it's better to put the incomplete page online now... it might still help someone out. Once it's done, it can be shared on OES.org if it's ok with Ron... and anywhere else it might be beneficial. |
I'd like to order a case of brochures with this information to hand out on the beach. Everyone whose first question about Nelson is "Does he shed much"  or "Does he eat a lot" will get a pamphlet with Jaci's information.  |
6Girls wrote: Here's a list of things to consider... I still haven't finished it ... http://untilyoufindme.com/Buying-An-Old ... -Puppy.htm This is AMAZING info! The BIBLE of OES puppy (or ANY puppy) purchase. It has all the information you need, but categoried, and very easy to read! It's also seem to me like it's numbered in the right order! of most importance... Shout out to MODS: Can we Sticky this?!?!?!  |
| Oh, one more thing, just because I read Jaci's bible of OES purchase I know this is usually a sensitive issue for many people, and I'm not even sure if it's appropriate to ask. How much are OES puppies? Are the puppies from respectable breeders really around 500-800? I was under the impression that the puppies from respectable breeders listed on the AKC website were on average, $1500-2000? |
| I absolutely agree! You put alot of work and thought into this Jaci and I wish it could reach every single person looking to buy a puppy! |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: I'd like to order a case of brochures with this information to hand out on the beach. Everyone whose first question about Nelson is "Does he shed much" or "Does he eat a lot" will get a pamphlet with Jaci's information. Does he eat alot?!?! hahaha |
joanna21 wrote: Oh, one more thing, just because I read Jaci's bible of OES purchase I know this is usually a sensitive issue for many people, and I'm not even sure if it's appropriate to ask. How much are OES puppies? Are the puppies from respectable breeders really around 500-800? I was under the impression that the puppies from respectable breeders listed on the AKC website were on average, $1500-2000? My puppies are $2000. I do all health clearances on my dogs (Hips, eyes certified yearly and OFA thyroid) I also show and complete Championships on my guys, which as anyone who shows knows, is extremely expensive. Not only for the price of entries, but the gas, grooming tools, shampoos, potions and lotions I also have purchased/imported quite a few dogs to add new blood to my lines (big bucks, especially when purchasing a proven International Champion male.) At the end of the day any money received from my litters goes right back into my dogs. |
| Joanna!!! |
Blueshire wrote: joanna21 wrote: Oh, one more thing, just because I read Jaci's bible of OES purchase I know this is usually a sensitive issue for many people, and I'm not even sure if it's appropriate to ask. How much are OES puppies? Are the puppies from respectable breeders really around 500-800? I was under the impression that the puppies from respectable breeders listed on the AKC website were on average, $1500-2000? My puppies are $2000. I do all health clearances on my dogs (Hips, eyes certified yearly and OFA thyroid) I also show and complete Championships on my guys, which as anyone who shows knows, is extremely expensive. Not only for the price of entries, but the gas, grooming tools, shampoos, potions and lotions I also have purchased/imported quite a few dogs to add new blood to my lines (big bucks, especially when purchasing a proven International Champion male.) At the end of the day any money received from my litters goes right back into my dogs.So $2000 vs $800 is basically for the quality of time, money & effort put into making the best puppies possible. I can only imagine how expensive all the health screening tests are. So, the important thing is to separate the ones that do put in all that and are asking rightfully for it, versus the people who do not, but ask just because they read online that's the going rate? And, it's up to the buyer to separate them out by asking the right Qs because even if you take all the right steps, you still can't guarantee that there won't be a health problem, although rare. OMG I can only imagine how much worse it'll be when all the education/effort/time were not placed?! So many people would still end up paying so much for puppies that weren't bred properly.... |
| Even with all of the health testing, it is not a 100% guarantee that the dog will not develop a problem. BUT.....your chances are better when the parents are certified (hips, eyes, thyroid) vs a breeding where the testing is not done, therefore not knowing if all is good with hips, eyes and thyroid. I am pretty sure I have mentioned this but over a year ago I had one of my dogs fail their CERF exam. Bella was a Canadian Champion, and I took her in for her first CERF exam at 13 months of age. Well, the opthomologist said she had retinal dysplasia in the folds of one eye and geographically(the bad one) in the other eye. Both of her parents were CERF clear. The good news was that this would have no effect whatsoever on Bella's eyesight, however IF she were to be bred, there would be a very high risk of her producing blind puppies. Bella was spayed and placed in a pet home. Now imagine the breeder who does not do this simple once a year exam and breeds their dog. Yikes! |
| I've been told that a good breeder only breeds when she wants a puppy for herself. If that's the case, wouldn't the breeder be incurring all the health clearance and show expenses anyway? It's a sunk cost for them because they're breeding for themselves first and foremost. I don't begrudge anyone charging as much as they can for a puppy, but I don't think it's really related to what it costs to produce a puppy. It's what the market can bear. However, I'm concerned that well-intentioned breeders are pricing their breeds into extinction. The AKC registration numbers are falling dramatically, not just for OES but for all purebred dogs in general. On the other hand, pet-related industries are doing very well financially. It's not that interest in dogs has fallen, but interest in purebred dogs seems to be on the decline. Many good families can't justify paying that much money for a dog, especially in this economy so they go to a shelter or rescue or (sadly) a BYB and take their chances. Can you blame them?  |
wondering wrote: I've been told that a good breeder only breeds when she wants a puppy for herself. If that's the case, wouldn't the breeder be incurring all the health clearance and show expenses anyway? It's a sunk cost for them because they're breeding for themselves first and foremost. I don't begrudge anyone charging as much as they can for a puppy, but I don't think it's really related to what it costs to produce a puppy. It's what the market can bear. However, I'm concerned that well-intentioned breeders are pricing their breeds into extinction. The AKC registration numbers are falling dramatically, not just for OES but for all purebred dogs in general. On the other hand, pet-related industries are doing very well financially. It's not that interest in dogs has fallen, but interest in purebred dogs seems to be on the decline. Many good families can't justify paying that much money for a dog, especially in this economy so they go to a shelter or rescue or (sadly) a BYB and take their chances. Can you blame them? Thank you for your interesting perspective on price of puppies. As someone who has no idea about breeding/showing dogs I never understood why they were so expensive. I've seen some puppies go for $4000. But I'm kind of confused about your statements. If the intention of breeders are not about selling puppies but about producing the best of the breed standard, I don't see why the nationwide sale status of any particular purebreed would be an issue? |
| Is the OP still even part of this thread? Has everyone "scared" them away? Are they even here at OES.org anymore? I realize everyone has some very strong opinions about Backyard Breeders and you have educated throughout this thread and many other threads..... However, in doing so have you scared the OP away? It would be nice to know that even if they do get a puppy from this breeder that they stay in touch here at oes.org for love and support! Please don't alienate everyone that comes here seeking advice for buying a puppy from a BYB. What we don't want is to turn people away from looking for additional help or for not speaking up and asking for help with this very special breed of dog. I guess I am asking that we remember to educate but to also be supportive. Just my 2 cents as a fairly new person here with a BYB puppy..... |
| umm...yes I am still here and checking this thread every few hours everyday (in fact I signed up to be a member!)...but Shari you're right...I did get a bit scared... However, I still really appreciate everyone's input on this and I know that everyone has the best intention I have rescued animals my whole life but this is my first time getting a puppy. I am learning a lot from this site and got a lot of great advice from folks here (special thanks to Scott and Ali who responded to my PM!) There will definitely be more questions to come, and I'll update everyone on my progress. Rachel |
go bears wrote: umm...yes I am still here and checking this thread every few hours everyday (in fact I signed up to be a member!)...but Shari you're right...I did get a bit scared... However, I still really appreciate everyone's input on this and I know that everyone has the best intention I have rescued animals my whole life but this is my first time getting a puppy. I am learning a lot from this site and got a lot of great advice from folks here (special thanks to Scott and Ali who responded to my PM!) There will definitely be more questions to come, and I'll update everyone on my progress. Rachel And please make sure to remember to post pictures when you do get your sheepie. We love pictures! |
I'm glad you're still here Rachel!  I was a bit worried about us having overwhelmed you too  .We tread an awfully thin line when this subject comes up, between giving accurate information, and also trying not to alienate the new puppy seeker or owner. Many of us who have been on this board for years, have heard (or lived) some truly heartbreaking outcomes from irresponsible breeding, so its hard not to react intensely. Keep us posted! |
| Keep in mind too, the dogs owned by all the forum members on this board run the complete gamut, from OES show champions to BYB sheepies, to mixed-bred OES rescues to even non-oes (a ton of the stuff posted on this board are really just dog-loving and dog-generic). All dogs deserve a loving home and loving owners. I have not detected any snobbery at all towards non-show quality OES. All the warnings are merely posted to help people avoid avoidable heartbreak (unless they're the gifted souls who knowingly take on rescue dogs with serious health/behavioural issues, personally, I don't think I'm ready for that) and help prevent dogs suffering. Whatever dog you might end up with (even if it's not an OES!) you'll find it a pretty welcoming, fun and educational place to share your love for your dog and dogs in general. |
| I am glad that you are still here! It can be a very overwhelming experience and this is an extremely active thread board. There is a lot of passion representated on here!!! I am in NJ and well.... I think we need a group get together at some point!! You should come across the river some time once you get your puppy and we can all meet up! Scott's puppy Jax and Dahlia still need to get together since we were unable to meet at that Philly picnic.... Looking forward to hearing about your puppy progress! Now, Dahlia and I are off to Obedience class!! |
| When I read all the advice given on this thread.. A few questions come to mind... maybe someone can help me understand. To get a great pup it should come from someone that has shown, and tested their dogs. So the questions I wonder about: What quaifies a Judge in the showring? Is it a college degree: Is it a class where you pass or fail: Is it a home sturdy course: Is it raising a certain number of litters: Do you even have to own a dog... And if you are a judge and you own and show your dog, is it your best friend judging it? How is it determined who is going to judge a certain ring? Is a judge paid: If so does the money come from the dues paid by the people that want to show their dog, if so would the judge be inclined to vote for the dog that has the owner that keeps coming back rather than the person that is only going to show once or twice: Does a Judge have to be invited back to judge a show: If so who/what determines which judges are invited back: Is it determined by the people that show their dogs. Who writes the standards for a dog in the show ring. Who determines things like color, height, eye color, hair, etc. Are the standards written by lots of OES owners, or a handful of judges or show people that belong to a club. AKC - American Kennel Club If, lets say, a new buyer does not know the answers to these questions how can they simply be given the advice to go with dogs that have been judged ? If they just take this advice would that be like standing on the steps of a car dealership and saying ... "I'll take that car, does it have leathe seats" ? I believe this is what has been said about buy a pup from someone other than the people on THE LIST. Next Question is Testing: If both mom and dad's hips test Excellent, does this mean the pup will not have hip problems ? If not .... are there numbers that support tested dogs produce less problems. Are more Hip problems caused by Inbreeding, or Line breeding. If Line breeding is really ok, then why dont people do it ? The testing is only good if there has been no hip problems in the dogs family, If any member of this dogs family has hip problems a dog that tested Excellent should not be breed. Is the dogs family tree listed with the Test results, since the test is only good based on the dogs family tree? Are the Xrays done in a regular vets office, if so most vets know immediately if the hips are good or bad, if bad are those xrays sent into OFA or tossed in the trash ? Just a couple questions that I was wondering about since they all are connected to the advice that is given to so many people. I really dont know the answers and was just wondering if anyone out there does. |
wondering wrote: However, I'm concerned that well-intentioned breeders are pricing their breeds into extinction. I really do understand your point. Prices may be way out of reach for many which means they're left with a choice of an OES in their price range or no OES at all. That's not much of a choice. The breeders producing the $200 to $500 puppies will always fill a need. I have to believe though that there are still some breeders in this price range who do it better than others. If a breeder is neglectful to their breeding dogs, I would go without rather than enabling them to continue to misuse their dogs. In the higher price range, buyers need to weed out breeders selling for higher prices but not putting anything more into their dogs that warrant these higher prices. Buyers have to try to figure out what makes the $1,000 OES puppy any better than the $400 one or if they're relatively the same. High price does not mean "quality". The same applies to any other price range. Over a certain price and there should be something more that we're getting other than an Old English Sheepdog that's cute. Something I want to clarify... I am not downing OES companions from bybs, rescues, puppy mills, etc. I'd be downing myself and my own beloved companions!! I have a wonderful, goofy rescue from NJ that has severe hip dysplasia... she spent 3 weeks at a humane society and a few months after being in her 2nd new home she was surrendered to rescue due to behavior and health problems. We're her 3rd home. I tend to believe she didn't come from a breeder who cared about her. And I have my $500 & $800 OES littermates that were being sold on NextDayPets. I too had always rescued, never purchased, never even had a purebred dog. I was clueless and didn't know the first thing about buying an OES. I was so fortunate with my luck of the draw after learning what some people have ended up with... my twins are remarkable companions. The list I've compiled is really about becoming better informed so we can make the best choice possible and to possibly help avoid suffering... that of breeding dogs used to make puppies, the puppies being sold and the families that will love them. Still, I feel if breeders say they truly care, they should be OFA/CERF rating for hips, thyroid and eyes. There's no leeway on that one for me. My dogs have suffered from these and me right along with them. I live with dogs afflicted with both hypothyroidism and hip dysplasia and have a low vision dog, basically blind in her one and only eye. Some conditions are lessened by testing (and OFA/CERF), some simply happen despite great care... but at least something was done to try to prevent it. |
Sheepdog Lover wrote: When I read all the advice given on this thread.. A few questions come to mind... maybe someone can help me understand. To get a great pup it should come from someone that has shown, and tested their dogs. So the questions I wonder about: What quaifies a Judge in the showring? Is it a college degree: Is it a class where you pass or fail: Is it a home sturdy course: Is it raising a certain number of litters: Do you even have to own a dog... And if you are a judge and you own and show your dog, is it your best friend judging it? I know part of the answer... This is for the USA, and to be an AKC judge - There is basic things you have to do - showing a certain number of dogs to their CH, raising litters, working at shows, taking tests, apprenticeships, etc. Here is a link that spells the very lengthy requirements out: http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-magazines ... judge.aspx How is it determined who is going to judge a certain ring? Judges are approved for breeds as they pass that breeds requirements - many are approved breed by breed slowly, judges can decide if they want to do just one breed (rare), or keep educating and adding breeds they are approved to judge. They only can judge breeds they are approved for. Is a judge paid: If so does the money come from the dues paid by the people that want to show their dog, if so would the judge be inclined to vote for the dog that has the owner that keeps coming back rather than the person that is only going to show once or twice: Judges are hired by the club that is putting on the show. They want to avoid "bad" judges, because people won't enter their show. Does a Judge have to be invited back to judge a show: If so who/what determines which judges are invited back: Is it determined by the people that show their dogs. Judges are selected buy the host club - partly their choice overall, but they need to get a mix that is able to judge all the breeds that are out there - quite a juggling game at times. Most clubs have a sub committee of the show committee who are in charge of getting judge nominations from their members, then contacting the judges and getting them under contract for their show. Who writes the standards for a dog in the show ring. Who determines things like color, height, eye color, hair, etc. Are the standards written by lots of OES owners, or a handful of judges or show people that belong to a club. AKC - American Kennel Club Each breed's standard is decided by each breed's parent club. AKC does not decide this. OESCA (Old English Sheepdog Club of America) is the OES parent club in the US. We (members) actually just had a vote this year about making changes to the breed standard. The membership voted to keep the standard as it is. If, lets say, a new buyer does not know the answers to these questions how can they simply be given the advice to go with dogs that have been judged ? If they just take this advice would that be like standing on the steps of a car dealership and saying ... "I'll take that car, does it have leathe seats" ? I believe this is what has been said about buy a pup from someone other than the people on THE LIST. Next Question is Testing: If both mom and dad's hips test Excellent, does this mean the pup will not have hip problems ? No concrete guarantee, it's just less risk. The better option is to look at the results of as many lateral relatives of both parents as possible - littermates, offspring, parents, aunts/uncles, cousins,etc. If not .... are there numbers that support tested dogs produce less problems. Are more Hip problems caused by Inbreeding, or Line breeding. If Line breeding is really ok, then why dont people do it ? Line breeding is a calculated risk - you magnify traits - both the good and the bad. You really need to know what you are doing to pull this off successfully. Lots of homework w/ pedigrees, test results, risk actors. The testing is only good if there has been no hip problems in the dogs family, If any member of this dogs family has hip problems a dog that tested Excellent should not be breed. Is the dogs family tree listed with the Test results, since the test is only good based on the dogs family tree? Check out the OFA site - once you plug in a dog, it lets you link through all the tested relatives. Pretty interesting, actually (ok, I have an animal research degree...I'm a relative geek about that stuff). Are the Xrays done in a regular vets office, if so most vets know immediately if the hips are good or bad, if bad are those xrays sent into OFA or tossed in the trash ? Just a couple questions that I was wondering about since they all are connected to the advice that is given to so many people. I really dont know the answers and was just wondering if anyone out there does. The xrays can be done in any vet office, although like any medical procedure, some are better at getting a good clear xray than others. It becomes somewhat of a specialty for them. Then the xrays are sent in to OFA to get rated. The xray can be guesstimated by whoever takes them, but it's nothing official. So you pay the vet's fee for an xray, then pay the OFA fee to get them rated and put on record. As for if they look like they may be bad ones - I guess it's up to the individual if they want to send them in. There is the option of disclosure (results listed for public view) or not. But if I was looking at dogs for breeding who have no results, that in itself would be a huge red flag. And the hip xrays are just a basic screen that breeders should be looking at - CERF (eye), BAER (hearing), complete thyroid panel, CA risk, elbows, temperament, structure and angulation, temperament, coat texture, it just goes on and on! I hope this helps! |
| I have to just ask one more time Sheepdog Lover are you a breeder????????? I believe this is the third time I have asked with no response? If you are, you are....be upfront! |
| To add a bit to what Dawn wrote, AKC judges have to attend judge's education seminars for each breed they study. The seminars are put on by the parent club (OESCA, in our case) When they start out judging a breed they are termed provisional and they need to basically prove their knowledge of the breed standard and their ability to evaluate the breed before they are granted regular judging status for a given breed. Each show giving club has its own method of determining which judges to hire. For specialties (single breed shows), the membership of the local OES club I belong to puts forth a number of nominations and then we all vote. Then you have to contact the judge and make sure the person the club wants to hire is available. At the national level it is a more extensive process (I know firsthand as I'm co-chair for the 2012 national and we're going through this process right now) First you solicit qualified nominations for judges (for breed, sweepstakes and the annual match) from the voting membership (approx. 750 members) Then you contact the top nominees and solicit an agreement from them that they would be willing to judge if selected. After that you put together a ballot of the nominees and the membership votes on it. For all breed clubs it's a more complicated process because you are hiring a total slate of judges who between them have the qualifications to judge all of the AKC approved breeds. Obviously the judges aren't the only ones who need to understand the standard inside and out, breeders have to do their own homework and similarly learn hands-on what the standard means. Since the purpose of dog shows is to evaluate individual dogs and bitches against the breed standard with their potential as stud dogs or in the whelping box in mind, it is natural that judges started out as breeders themselves, and that is indeed one of the many requirements. Linebreeding does not cause hip dysplasia, which is a polygenic trait. I.e. dogs do not have to be remotely related to produce dysplastic get. This is evidenced quite readily by the most obvious outcrosses (mixes) E.g. you can breed a poodle to a golden and if both individual dogs carry a significant load of the genes that predispose the dog to CHD, the resulting puppies can easily be dysplastic. The same is true within a breed. I.e. if breeders are not screening for hip dysplasia (or whatever) it doesn't matter if they are linebreeding or outcrossing, the risk of producing dysplastic puppies is the same. This is true of many of the health conditions experienced in our breed - you have to be consciously selecting against things like hip dysplasia and hypothyroidism and so on, and to do that you have a good idea of what the potential health risks are. To do that you have to (a) be screening for health problems and (b) sharing that information. One of the problems you run up against in screening is that if no genetic (DNA) test is available you have to go with phenotype screening. E.g. the (usually, in the US) OFA ratings of the sire and dam. Dogs who show clinical evidence (and many are asymptomatic unless CHD is severe - many a conscientious breeder has learned that the hard way over the years) of CHD should not be bred simply because you know they carry a high load of the genes that cause CHD. The same is true of hypothyroidism, for instance. This is where you also need to know not only what the sire and dam's hip and thyroid etc status is, as well as the grandparents and great grandparents and so on (depth of pedigree) but also ideally as many if not all of their siblings for each generation (breadth of pedigree, which Dawn refers to). Even if you have an OFA excellent bitch, if three of her littermates were radiographically dysplastic you may safely presume she carries a much higher than average rate of the genes that contribute to CHD with the corresponding ability to pass them on. She is actually a very poor breeding prospect. Simple recessives (CA, in our breed, PRA in a number of breeds, we shall see if that also turns out to be the case in OES, there is research underway) are more readily selected against with more simple pedigree analysis and some pretty straightforward carrier risk calculations, though even this is only as good as best available information on carrier/affected status in a pedigree. For sound breeding decisions to be made all known health information has to be shared. The CHIC registry is designed with this premise in mind. To acquire a CHIC number the dog must at a bare minimum have had the required testing done AND results submitted, regardless of results. I.e. a dog could have OFA excellent hips, clear eyes according to CERF, and be hypothyroid. I.e. having a CHIC number does not designate the dog as perfectly healthy in certain areas based on the testing performed, it simply says that the breeder cared enough to do the required testing, submit it, and share the information regardless of the results in some cases. You can see the complete CHIC requirements for OES at http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD These are also determined by the parent club (OESCA) - the recommendations start at the OESCA Health & Research Committee level, and the board has the final say. We just added MDR1 results as recommended (Reminds me: Judi - are you reading this? I just got word Harry is about to become "CHIC" - well, we've always known he was a cool dude ) As time goes on a number of these now recommended tests may become required for the breed in terms of CHIC. And new testing may be added as it becomes available. As for THE LIST you refer to, I presume you are referring to OESCA's breeder referral list; http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... ectory.htm Breeders have to (a) have signed OESCA Code of Ethics http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamer ... thics.html and be willing to be listed. Some breed so rarely they opt not to as they rarely have puppies available. In addition, the AKC has more recently instituted what it is known as a Breeder of Merit distinction. These breeders have to fulfill a set number of requirements including being a member of an AKC club, having been involved in AKC events for at least five years, having bred/co-bred at least four breed and/or companion/performance titled dogs, and, very importantly, having performed their breed's recommended health screenings, and so on. See http://www.akc.org/breederofmerit/index.cfm The argument has often been leveled at the AKC that an AKC registration is no guarantee of quality and that is true- it is a first and foremost a registry. The breeder of merit distinction gives your average puppy buyer an additional way to distinguish between breeders who are attempting to breed for the betterment of the breed and those who simply breed, and you can look up breeders who are BOMs directly on the AKC site. It's new enough that I don't think a lot of OESCA breeders have necessarily gone through the application process yet, though I expect to see more and more of them listed as such as my sense is that a majority will readily qualify. I know, I know, so much to learn. Small wonder many puppy buyers feel overwhelmed. Kristine |
go bears wrote: umm...yes I am still here and checking this thread every few hours everyday (in fact I signed up to be a member!) Welcome!!!Rachel If you click on the "Subscribe Topic" link, the forum will send you an email when there's been a new post! The link is located after all of the heading info, juuuuust above where all the posts start, over the left username column. You need to be logged in for it to work. |
Kristine & Dawn: You both explained things so thoroughly! Thank you I have 1 thing to add. Re: the OESCA Breeder Referral List.....in order to be listed there, not only do the OESCA members who are breeders have to sign the Code of Ethics again & produce other information that shows they are doing health testing etc., but they have to have produced a required minimum of litters AND they have to have finished (shown to their AKC Championship) at least 1 of their OES out of every 3 litters they produce. I actually felt that this particular requirement was a bit lienient. My opinion is that if you are producing quality OES & breeding to better the breed you should have no problem finishing at least 1, if not more, out of each litter. This shows the breeders' commitment in time & effort & expense to get the approval from several different judges against several different OES that their OES is indeed a good specimen of the breed. I was on the committee that set up the Breeder Referral List. I felt it would give the person looking for an OES puppy a place to go where they could feel confident that the breeder was expending extra effort to produce quality dogs. You can't just "slip thru the cracks" so to speak, join OESCA & be listed on this list.  |
Quote: I really do understand your point. Prices may be way out of reach for many which means they're left with a choice of an OES in their price range or no OES at all. That's not much of a choice. The breeders producing the $200 to $500 puppies will always fill a need. I have to believe though that there are still some breeders in this price range who do it better than others. If a breeder is neglectful to their breeding dogs, I would go without rather than enabling them to continue to misuse their dogs. After rereading what I said in the light of day, I didn't say it right. Some of this is simply degrees of wrongness... but there is no way to change it if the price of a puppy is first and foremost to a buyer.  We've had a stomach bug going on (Kaytee first, Darby 4 days later) so I've been a bit sleep deprived for the past week. Sleeping with them in a tile room rather than being vomited or pooed on in the bedroom seemed prudent.  Thinking we're on the mend now... |
| I too love love my rescues!! I just wanted info out there about dogs that are not bred carefully. I have always have rescued dogs and doubt that I will ever buy from a breeder but have done so in the past and had a wonderful experience. |
| Thank you so much for your time to explain all of my questions. One hears so many rumors out there sometimes they just dont know what to believe. I do think this may help someone that wants to purchase a pup, but may not realize how much work goes into a puppy that comes from a show line. |
| My bogey comes from Riverbin. She is not involved in showing her dogs. Bogey is healthy and has a wonderful temperament. I know many pups from Riverbin - all are great. Even checked back generations and have heard nothing but healthy and great temperaments. As for my Gigi, we all know she has had OCD both shoulders surgery and has hip dysphasia I know now to check generations |
oesmom2 wrote: My bogey comes from Riverbin. She is not involved in showing her dogs. Bogey is healthy and has a wonderful temperament. I know many pups from Riverbin - all are great. Even checked back generations and have heard nothing but healthy and great temperaments. As for my Gigi, we all know she has had OCD both shoulders surgery and has hip dysphasia I know now to check generations That's wonderful. Do you use the OFA site ( http://www.offa.org) to check for health clearances? You don't striclty speaking have to do so: breeders should provide a copy of the parents health certifications in the "puppy package" that comes with the puppy (which should also include microchip information, registration papers, the puppies own health records which has things like vaccine and worming information to date, which is very important for the new puppy owner's vet, etc). But if you want to check what health testing has been done relative to the parents ahead of time, for instance before you commit to purchasing a specific puppy - and this is a very wise thing to do - I wish everyone would simply get in the habit - the best option is to ask the prospective breeder for the sire and dam's registered names and registration numbers (you only actually need one or the other, but it's nice to have both in case you write something down wrong) and then you look them up yourself and can even go back and look at multiple generations: by clicking on the vertical pedigree option of the sire and dam respectively you can see how many of their siblings were OFA'd, along with ratings, as well as how many of their parents and grandparents siblings hips were checked. You can also check for CERF and thyroid results in this matter. It's a wonderful, powerful tool for breeders and puppy buyers alike. Kristine |
| barbara roling is honest and the pups are beautiful! our maisey is from a willow litter last year. maisey is the 4th OES that i have owned. a wonderful breed of dog. barbara breeds healthy and happy puppies. they arrive safe and secure. i simply cannot say enough things about her. enjoy your puppy... |
| We bought a puppy from Barbara eight years ago and we have been in touch ever since. She has always been there to answer any questions and gave us a health guarantee. We are now buying a puppy from her for my daughter and very ill son. Sheepdogs are her life and she treats the dogs and their new owners like family. |
| I know this response is too late for the original post but hopefully it will help someone else during their research stage! I too bought a puppy from Barbara Dec2016. Barbara went out of her way to help get us our puppy. We live in FL and I flew to Iowa on Dec21st to pick up Mabel and only had 40 minutes between my flight she was at the airport waiting for me with our little girl making sure she was not stressed and calm and given potty breaks while she waited for her new mommy. Barbara could have simply told me no that I would have to wait until after Christmas. (The holidays are a horrible time to send a puppy on their own...delays etc) So I wanted to pick her up myself and Barbara did everything in her ability to help make sure the pick up was as smooth as possible! With all that said, our pup is now 5 months old and is an incredibly happy and healthy pup! She looks amazing and is wonderful with my 3 boys (ages 2,6 and 14). I would definitely recommend Barbara and Roling Acres! |
| Well good for you! You are certainly the exception to what we have been hearing! I wonder though if you have read this thread completely? Being there with the puppy when you were at the airport means nothing really. Has nothing to do with the breeder, or the dogs she breeds. Which should always be your first concern. Anyone can play nice for a little while, that wasn't the point of these posts. Good luck with your puppy. I hope you remain the exception Shellie |
| Oh my gosh, this saddens me to hear some people have bad things to say about Barbara and Roling Acres. I hope that my story helps anyone who comes across this and is looking to buy from Barbara. I lived in Indiana at the time that I got my pup from Barbara. I was 14, incessantly looking at OESs and came across Roling Acres. I settled on a dog I loved from looking at the website and told my parents, but unfortunately a week later, my pup was reserved by The Johnson Family. The day before my birthday, my whole family had to pile into the Suburban to take a long road trip for my dad's friend. We were constantly renovating and taking long drives, this was NOTHING out of the ordinary. Hours later, in Iowa, we arrive at what looks like a farm and I see OESs bounding around, oblivious to what was happening. The Johnson Family was actually a pseudonym to cover that my parents bought my pup for me and knew I would be looking at the website, so Barbara offered to say the pup was reserved under another name. I cannot tell you how amazing my dog was. He would have been 9 this year, April 1st, but unfortunately was taken too soon. I honestly will never have a dog as good as he was. Clam, gentle, so humanlike, intelligent, intuitive, joyful and loved being outside no matter what time of year. He was a treasure, my best friend for 9 years, there fore me and could sense all of my emotions, and it killed me to lose him only February 24th of this year. I found this post because I was looking Barbara Roling back up so I could see when the next litter is available. Yes, she is wonderful, her dogs are exquisite and well taken care of and healthy, and yes I want to buy from her again. I now live in Portland, OR and I would hands down make the drive again. I will make the drive again. I hope you readers get the chance to meet her and have the same experience I had. An amazing dog that truly changes your life forever.  |
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