will i regret this?
I am so afraid of this breed now. She said why do you want a breed that is known for aggression, and one that you never know if they are going to bite or what they are going to do? I am so scared now and am regretting putting my deposit down and hopefully can get it back......ugh....maybe I am just not ready for this. Something Oprah said really struck me......if you have even shadow of a doubt about something, it isn't right. I am torn up about this. advice please. |
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| I have no idea why your vet would say something like that. It is certainly not a breed characteristic, quite the opposite in fact. More and more cases of aggression issues are coming up lately, but I think in most if not all cases it is either poor breeding, more and more mills and BYB's who only care about the bottom $ and are not using care when selecting breeding animals, and also owners. Many people are not taking the time to raise dogs properly, training, socialization etc, because so many families are working families, without someone home all the time. Just my opinion of course. If your vet has seen a lot of this, I certainly would not buy one from your area then. Perhaps your vet can put you in touch with other oes owners in your area so that you can find out where they got their dogs and not make the same mistake. On the other side of the coin, and no offense intended, but maybe she isn't a very good vet and inspires fear in her patients. Again, just my opinion.... |
| I should also add however, that if you are having doubts, about whether this is the breed for you, or whether you are ready to have a dog... then by all means, go with your gut. It is far better for you and the future of any dog you add to your family to do your research ahead of time, and know for sure this is the one for you. It is a long committment, hopefully ten to fifteen years or more of furry, clownish love, and all the mischeivious adventures in between. |
| I say go with your gut too. Is this friend a "real" vet - or does this person
work in a vets office or some such? I cannot imagine any responsible vet - friend or not - telling somone that an OES will bit or growl. Did you misunderstand her? Did she really say that this breed is know for aggression? I find that incredible. Sounds odd to me. Look, if you have done your own homework and checked out this breed - your breeder and your home situation and find it all agrees and you feel strongly about the OES breed then go with your gut. IMHO Okra tells her opinions just like anyone else, including me in this post, and the vet you talked about. You are the only person who knows what is right for you. You will have this dog from the puppy stage. Work on making your puppy into a happy healthy and loving dog, no matter what breed-because they all have the potential to be aggressive. There is lots of advice and help available to you right here. I think it is great that you are asking around, and gathering all you information ahead of time. It shows that you want to raise a good dog in a good home. You will do the right thing for you. Shellie |
| When we started taking Buford to our vets office the doc was just starting practice and probably hadn't ever treated an OES. Poor old Buf's previous owner had his home destroyed in a tornado and we were fostering him until he rebuilt his house. The trauma of having his home literally blow up around Buford did make him a bit quirky and he exhibited somewhat unpredictable behavior, especially at the vet's office. One day he tried to take a big bite out of the doc and he was wary of OES after that (but he never bad-mouthed them as a breed). Years later when I take Maggie to see the same vet he sometimes remarks about how fierce old Buford was. And what a sweetie our Maggie is. A lot has to do with "nurture" and not "nature". I'd recommend becoming more acquainted with the breed before deciding it's the one for you. Forget what the vet says but remember that any animal (canine, human or other) may take a notion to take a bite out of you if do something to deserve it! |
Wow, I know Jasper isn't aggressive at all (now). He was a nippy little puppy, but that has stopped. Now, he's more likely to lick you to death than bite you.  Our vet LOVES Jasper. She just goes on and on and on about him. Probably because we pretty much have the only sheepie in the area, lol She gives him a puppy biscuit when he lays down on the table, checks him out, gives him his shots & heartworm pill, and we're out of the door in about 10 minutes. He's never even come close to being aggressive with her. |
| I have to agree with what everyone is saying. An OES's behavior is not aggressive. If they are aggressive it is usually something to with the way they are raised or my breeder had mentioned to me after I told them of an incident with an OES we tried to rescue who exhibited signs of male aggression (went at my neighbor whom has 4 dogs, 2 by the dog's choice, then flipped out at our tv and would not stop till everything was turned off) that it could be a trait of inbreeding. There is alot of things to look into with OES's but aggression is not one of them, unless they feel their family is being threatened, then I would say they could be aggressive. My old OES took down a rottweiler because she was getting between him and I.
I hope this helps. |
| What are the chances someone is going up to an unfamiliar Doberman or Rottweiler and stick their hand in their face? People have been conditioned to think of these dogs as fierce. Just because people relate to the "Shaggy DA" or other TV shows with the the OES doesn't mean they are cartoon characters. They can all have the same protective nature or fear of being at the vets office, regardless of breed. |
| Sounds like a case of the vet having seen only one dog and that one didn't like going to the vet. I am going with nuture not nature. Because you are worried here is what I would do: Watch the dog whisperer on the national geographic station, look around on this site and others and read all you can about training and behaviour, become an amature expert. With that your worries will be far less. I personally don't believe there are mean dogs, I believe the owners have allowed the wrong behaviors. Not on purpose mind you but because of a lack of experience and education. If I was you I would I would ask for my money back and get a beagel or a small breed of some sort. I don't mean this in a bad way though, a sheepdog requires about three hours per week of brushing and another hour or so to bath them, not so much if you keep them clipped, but that takes 3 hours or so every 3 months or will cost you around $100. They are big and need allot of exercise also so you have to walk them and they do like people so you have to teach them not to jump on people and not to chew on their arms. You seem to be a thoughtful person so I am sure what ever path you take you will be fine, because you will not get the sheepdog unless youare sure you can handle them. By the way I think a sheepdog is the best combination of traits of any dog, but I also like dobermans, begals, maltese, on and on, so on and so on.
One more thought, any vet that thinks all of one breed is one way is simply wrong, it just doesn't work that way. Have fun |
| "Almost all aggressive"???? Are they talking about an Old English Sheepdog? Huh. If you consider a face full of doggie slobber with a giant pink tongue aggressive, then I guess they are.
I know that there are many stories of some rescue dogs with aggression problems, but a pup from a good reputable breeder shouldn't have that problem. Ditto on your gut. If you are having doubts, it's not the breed, it's a dog. Maybe you should wait a bit longer and try to spend some time with someone elses doggies??? |
| I wouldn't get one if you are having second thoughts. But if you have really done your research and convinced you want this dog and are willing to put the time and effort into grooming, walking and playing then they are great (same thing with everydog)
My experience: Momo can be aggressive right now - because she is a pup and I am still training her. She will turn out alright - I am sure - because I am setting limits, training her the best way I know how and going to get her in a puppy class as soon as I can. I've had to baby sit some of the smallest dogs to the biggest dogs - and all I have to say it - "they are all dogs" They might be built for different things, or nothing at all (our precious mutts) but they are dogs.
As for your vet - I had to correct my vet the other day when they said that all Chihuahuas are one person dogs, impossible to house break and downright mean other other people... it is simply not so! I have had to babysit (and darn well near got to keep one) Chi's and if they are socialized and treated right like dogs should be - they are fine with other people and animals. They can also be housebroken - it's just people do NOT take the time to since their "potties" are so small. The breeder my mom used to be friends with had three of them - one had not turned out the way she would have liked (physically) - but she loved the darn boy anyway and kept him for a pet. He loved her but he also adored me. I still wish I could have had him - he was so precious to me. He was so little and kind and I couldn't imagine anyone saying something so mean about Chihuahuas. Anyway - long story!  It's the same thing with Sheepdogs - people have told me varrying stories "They are messed up in the head" "Neurotic" "Steady dogs" "Aggressive" "Hyper" "Calm" - big differences huh?
I just want to say again - they are all dogs. Unless you are getting a dog from a puppy mill or a backyard breeder you shouldn't have to worry too much about your dog having a screw loose. You can shape your dog into what you want him or her to be (be kind or mean) - but if you are worried about size and grooming - I would get a smaller dog.
Smaller dogs I like: Chis, Beagles, Dachshunds, Yorkies. |
| Oh, like children, Puppies are impressionable. Shower them with love and they will return it 10 fold. |
| Also consider this is the vet's office....to a dog it can be highly stressful depending on why he/she is there. They sense the stress of the other dogs inside, it smells odd to them probably. I would take this as a case by case thing, if your vet is talking about 1 even 2 dogs, that is not something to base the whole breed on.
Coming here gives you a better idea of what they are truly like, and no one sugar coats the breed. Also consider that a vet sees dogs in trouble, in pain...they may just be reacting out of that. A groomer sees dogs badly matted because of poor care...if someone was gonna touch you when your in pain like that you would try and stop them too. A properly raised dog, any breed, that has been taken care of, loved, trained, and socialized is a joy to be around. This dog has no reason to bite or growl...if the perosn is hurting them enough they will react...wouldn't you? So you may want to try and visit some other owners of sheepies...and observe their behaviour. Research more until your 100%, don't get any dog unless you feel confident you can do the work. Good luck with your decision. And my Remy is adored everywhere we go, she is extremely friendly and affectionate. The vet office is a place to get another treat. |
| Lol. When Clyde walks into the vet, everyone comes running-- not muzzle him but to pet him and tell him how cute he is. He loves it! He walks around feeling all special, like he's the king of the vet! They even take pictures of him and told us that he's one of their favorite dogs. Same goes for the groomer and the dog park.
I strongly believe it's all about nurture. You really do shape your dog's behavior. If he's in a loving home, with firm discipline and understands boundaries, there shouldn't be too many problems. All living things can sometimes be unpredictable sometimes but aggressive behavior like you mentioned can be attributed to lots of things. My mom's Bouvier couldn't even go inside the vet's office, he had to be sedated and then the vet came to the car. He was a great dog at home but EXTREMELY protective and wouldn't let any strangers come near my mom and that was why he was aggressive to others. At the time, my mom lived alone in the country so Winston was her guardian and she loved him this way because she wanted a guard dog that made her feel safe. It wasn't breed specific, it was just Winston! I agree with what others have said, visit some sheepdogs and form your own opinions. Then, if you still feel that way, go with your gut. |
| Lauren, I know in your other post you mentioned that your puppy is coming from Michigan. Are you close by? I'd be happy to let you meet Clyde if you're in the area. |
| Thanks so much everyone for your thoughts. I guess I just cant take the chance of it biting or something. I know it is all in how you train them, I am so sad abotu this, but I have to have a dog that will never snap or one I never have to worry about, like a golden retriever or something. I know all dogs snap if prevoked, but I have just heard of too many thins on here where the dog one day just snapped. That is so scary to me.
You almost never hear of that with retrievers, or things like that. My parents have a havanese and she doesnt even know what it means to bite or snap?????!!!!!! I know OES are wonderful animals, and I am sure I could do fine with one, however with my line of work(occupational Therapy with children) and using the dog to help with therapy there has to be almost a guarantee that the dog wont someday snap like I would say most people on here have said that they did. The two I have met so far snapped or growled too. Maybe I dont deserve one of these dogs since I am so afraid now, I think I better use my head and get a goldendoodle, or maybe a havanese. I am very JEALOUS of all of you with your sheepies. I know I will cry if I ever see one. I know it could work, but I just cant take that chance of a sick kid getting bit...ever. -Thanks so much. I'll keep you posted on my dog situation. The lady in MI did give me my deposit back.....wow what a neat breeder. If anyone is looking she is from [I'm sorry, but that breeder would perfer never to be named on this forum -Ron.]. -Thanks so much for everything and enjoy your babies! -Lauren |
laurenmot wrote: I know it is all in how you train them, I am so sad abotu this, but I have to have a dog that will never snap or one I never have to worry about, like a golden retriever or something. I know all dogs snap if prevoked, but I have just heard of too many thins on here where the dog one day just snapped. That is so scary to me.
O_o Sorry to say, but Goldens are just as likely to snap as an OES. Let me tell you a story: My boss' Golden - Disfigured a little girl's face, mauled a garbage man, killed a cat, her dog is on lockdown to say the least. While at the house she has mauled another dog that visited and her friend took her dog out even though she was warned not to - and tore a girl's shirt off trying to maul her. That being said - Goldens are NOT perfect either. They can be just as crazy. If you are worried about the severity of a bite... get a SMALLER dog. |
| Laurenmot- you might want to consider getting a rescue dog, if you are concerned with biting. Rescues have been checked for temperment, and the rescue society can match you up with a dog (there are rescues for just about every breed out there!) which doesn't bite!
Karen  |
| Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a 100% guarantee with any dog, large or small. Most of their temperament is nurture, but a good portion is nature as well, which is why you should choose your breeder carefully.
If you feel nervous about any aspect of a sheepie, then you have made the right decision to back out of it. Dogs pick up on their owners feelings and that in itself can present problems. Good luck in your search. Chris |
| There is no dog in the world, regardless of breed, upbringing, breeding etc that can be guaranteed not to bite. They are dogs. Animals. There is always that chance, perhaps you should consider another pet altogether.... or fish maybe... I can't actually think of any pet that won't act like an animal and possibly bite except maybe fish, and then that depends on the fish.... |
Your absolutely right! I should have written- that is LESS LIKELY to bite- not "doesn't bite". There are no guarantees. But you can always try to hedge your bets 
Karen |
Willowsprite wrote: There is no dog in the world, regardless of breed, upbringing, breeding etc that can be guaranteed not to bite. They are dogs. Animals. There is always that chance, perhaps you should consider another pet altogether.... or fish maybe... I can't actually think of any pet that won't act like an animal and possibly bite except maybe fish, and then that depends on the fish....
Fish bite too. We used to have a tank and they all nibbled on my father's finger when he put it in there.
She is right though - all animals can bite (even if they don't mean to do it that hard). My Momo has bitten me and my cats have bitten me - my hedgehogs too. However - if you are worried about how BIG the animal is - then I would look at a small breed with a tiny mouth that way the bite might not be so bad... but if you are working with children - they can be harmed by even the smallest dog if s/he isn't properly socialized. |
Some people even bite  |
| As was mentioned, Golden Retrievers bite too. Every golden we meet on a walk growls and is very snappy at Remy and I...we meet friendlier Rottis.
It is not the breed you need to worry about, it is how well you train. If you are a nervous person, your dog will pick up on that. If your confident and able to be a leader you won't need to worry about a thing. All pups come with a blank slate so to speak, find a puppy that has been socialized with alot of people. Find one over 8 weeks, pick the middle of the pack. Golden Retrievers are over bred, leading to more aggressive dogs out there. I am sure there is a statistic somewhere on how many people come in with dog bites. I bet you'd be suprised how many are the "he'd never bite anyone dogs." Whatever breed you decide on, YOU will need to be in control. You can't let any dog take over, it's up to you what the end result will be But to pick one breed over the other doesn't guarantee a good dog. Guinea pigs bite too. |
| When I was a pet groomer, I was bit by just about every breed out there. Even our reguars (ones that came in every week) would nip at us sometimes when they didn't feel like being groomed. We had doggie dayare, and even some of them would get in foul moods some days and snap or growl at us. These were dogs that normally were great and loved us.
I've only come across one truly vicious dog. He was a mixed breed named Justus. He LOVED his family, that was evident when they dropped him off to be boarded for the week. As great as he was with his family, I thought he was going to be an easy dog to watch. As soon as they left, he became Kujo-like. LOL I'm not kidding though. He charged at me, and I jumped up on the counter. I finally caught him with our leads, and then I took another lead and caught his mouth iwth it to act as a temporary muzzle. I got him into a kennel, and I really didn't want to let him out the rest of the weekend! I'm not that mean though - lucky for that dog, lol He stayed with us for a week, and before his time was over, we became friends. He was just as sweet to me as he was his owners, even though I still didn't let my guard down. That first few days when I was by myself, though, I had never been so afraid of a dog before. I just knew I was going to have to go to the hospital on that first day. The worst bite I have ever gotten was by a miniature poodle of all things! That joker bit right through my index finger, and all I was trying to do was put him into a cage until his owners arrived to pick him up. Rotts I love. I think they're gorgeous dogs, and I've been fortunate enough to never come across a bad one. Dobermans, I think they are gorgeous dogs & I've met some real sweeties, but that's one breed that just looks ready to attack. Probably because I've seen too many on tv as guard dogs and stuff, lol Goldens - come across some that were awesome and some that were mean. I love Goldens though - our top 4 breeds before we decided on a sheepie was a golden, a yorkie, a boxer, and of course an OES. Completely different breeds, lol The sweetest dogs I've been around are English Mastiffs, great danes, and Irish Wolfhounds (although I don't think Irish wolfhounds are the prettiest of dogs...no offense anyone who loves them - just not the breed for me) All of the ones I've been around have been gentle giants. I'm sure there are bad apples in those two breeds also though. We had a great dane when my youngest son was a baby (4 mo old), and he was the only puppy I had that didn't nip. He was such a big baby. I really miss Max.
However, it's all in how they're raised. Just about ANY puppy is going to nip. It's just nature, although some breeds are worse than others. With a little time and patience, it can be stopped. If you ignore the behavior (or your pet), it'll get worse and you'll more than likely have a dog who won't think twice about biting when s/he's upset. Jasper was a biter when he was younger. There was a time there where I wondered if I made the right decision getting him. He had already stolen my heart though, and I just knew I had to make it work out. Now, he's not biting at all. He plays with my 2 & 3 yr old all the time, and they love him. I don't leave them alone wtih Jasper, but I don't leave them alone with our cat, Allie, either and she's nearly 2 now. I *KNOW* Allie doesn't bite (they've picked up the poor girl by her tail before and she just meowed loudly), but I don't want to take the chance she'll start either. A puppy is what you make of it, and there are some awesome dogs out there. I hope you find the one best for you! |
| I have had vets that gave me bad information too, weather medical or breed. I just found a better vet,..... problem solved.
Everything can bite, and without proper training and socializing the chances go up. I have had 3 OES's, a beagle, and a black lab and they never bit anyone. When people decide to make their own pets...er...brats....er...kids, they usually find that they will bite to; more that any dog I have had. just my 3 cents (adjusted for inflation) |
| This is an interesting thread. I have gone to the same VET office for almost 20 years. There are now 2 Vets there. One is the Vet I've always known, the other is "new". The "new" Vet always insists that I muzzle Tasker (the most UNAGGRESSIVE DOG I KNOW). My old Vet nevers asks for him to be muzzled and usually gets on the floor to play with him. Needless to say, unless it's an emergency I make appointments to see the "old" VET!! |
| I know you said this vet is your friend. I had moved around several times when I had my first sheepdog and I did go to this one vet who asked if he should be muzzled? There was nothing remotely agressive in his behavior that would have made him question it and he also told me that had sheepdogs that were aggressive. After my shock from his statement, I never went back to see him again after that visit.
There is a sheepdog in my neighborhood that has tried to give my second sheepdog warning bites without and provocation either. Unfortunately I think the owner is a bit wacky and I think the behavior is due to bad training. I'm now on my third sheepdog and have not seen the slightest bit of aggression in any of them. My first had gotten bitten by 3 dogs in separate incidents and he made no attempts to even fight back. Am I just lucky? Perhaps but I still think the emphasis should be on how to train this breed. POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT is the key. Never hit your dog or they will always remember. Definitely helps if the breeder breeds for temperament first & foremost but my first dog was a puppymill dog and he turned out to be the biggest sweetheart. I agree with everyone else that if you're having 2nd thoughts I would say that maybe you should back out. I am worried that you will be fearful of any puppy biting behavior or any other playful fighting actions and see it as a sign of aggression. If you do go through with it, please find comfort that the members of this board will give you advice in any situation that you may encounter. |
| I have 4 OES that have never shown any signs of aggression. One of my boys has cancer and has been to several different vets for treatment, even in pain he would never bite or snap at anyone. My vet adores my dogs and even calls to check and see how they are. They have also been to various groomers through the years and have have been loved by all of them. Maybe you could consult with other vets, groomers and breeders to see how others view OES. |
| So far my Max just loves the vet, but the vet also adores him! I go to a small vet's office and he's been a vet for a long time, he loves animals and always spends a good amount of time with Max just petting him and interacting with him. So Max feels very at home and getting shots becomes a fun outing |
| Hi everyone, I dod lots of research this weekend......yes I agree, 99 percent of the people I spoke to said the same thing you all are saying, that the OES aren't aggressive any more so than any other breed. They all emphasized training training training! They made me feel a whole lot better about it. I told this to my friend vet and she said that she has only had experience with 4, but that they do muzzle them immeidately. I asked her, why and she said well, we think they look aggressive???????? Oh well, happy she wont be my vet I guess.
I didt think they were either and thats why I was so surprised by my friends response when I told her about my pup. I spoke with 2 dog trainers, 3 families who own OES and 4 different vets, they allo said the same thing...any dog will bite if not trained properly. But the OES doesnt stand out as being aggressive. I am sooooo much more calm now. And yes, I know all about puppy biting and growling..... -Thanks for everyones input...you guys are more appreciated than you know! Lauren |
| I would find out from the other OES owners you spoke to what vet they use. Most vets will be happy to address your concerns before you bring in a dog. Glad you feel better about everything. |
| So glad you got a chance to find some things out. Good for you to go the extra before giving up. Good luck with the pup. |
| Lauren,
So are you getting a pup? You mentioned in a previous post about getting your deposit back. What's the latest - yay or nay? Chris |
| Ok, maybe your vet friend is basing their opinion of a breed on the size, which when fully groomed or full grown, etc. can look a little threatening but with the proper training, they are one of the most gentlest breeds (solely my opinion) but also a breed that would protect their family. Plus it is not like when you go to get hazard insurance on your house and the insurance agent asks do you have a rottweiler, pit or 2 or 3 other breeds that are getting into the papers more and more these days. |
| There is only 1 way to get a 100% guarantee that your dog won't bite. Don't get one.
I don't want to sound condescending or mean or rude, but if you honestly believe that there is one breed of dog that will never mouth/nip/bite/chase or lick, then get a hamster. Glad to hear you are doing the research. One tip: With a puppy, do not let them get away with mouthing you or nipping for longer than 10 weeks old. Soft mouthing is normal, but allowing it to carry on will make it much harder to stop completely later on and you'll have a "bite-er". Yes, it's in the training and upbringing. Good luck! |
| Glad to hear that you are a bit more calm now. Don't worry - we all go through our moments of doubt. I've had people tell me the same things they are telling you and it can be a bit unsettling... until you realize they are totally full of it! I did the same thing (worry if I was looking at the right dog) - but research goes far and it's good to have people who are completely honest with you.
I love this forum because everyone brings up the problems they are having with biting or behavior... and it gets solved. No sugar coating things. I remember asking everyone why I shouldn't get an OES. Everyone was totally honest and gave me lists of reasons why OES might not be for me. I also think the reason why it seems that OES might be a little aggressive - is because this forum is an oes forum - so the only dog we hear about being aggressive IS an oes. If we were a multi-dog forum you wouldn't probably hear about it as much enough to make it noticable. |
| I'm surprised to read about een oes being aggressive, my vet is excited by having an oes in his practice, boo's mom and aunts go there also. It's the first time that a puppy from this breeder lives in the same town. When you read the breeding standard of oes in our country (netherlands), it says that the oes is great towards children, gentle. My personal opinion is that when the oes is fully grown, they don't look aggressive, but very cute. But over here most oes have long hair, maybe that looks less aggressive. I've always wanted an oes, but just didn't have the money to buy one. I've been saving and finally, almost three weeks ago, got my Boo. The breeder where i bought her, first we talked over the phone, the i came to visit, we had a long talk. About why a oes? What are your expectations? Grooming, caracter of the oes, information about me, what's the family situation, in what kind of house I live, do I have to go to work, how much time do I have to raise a puppy etc. I got to see the puppy's (they lived right in the livingroom), saw the mom (champion of luxemburg), saw papers about the dad (dutch champion, german champion etc.) Three hours later, the breeder wanted to have a second visit with me and my husband becaus he wasn't present the first time. I was lucky because the breeder only lives 1 mile away, couple of days later we came back, and stayed for another three hours.I am glad that the breeder took a lot of time in getting to know us, and giving a lot of advice. This made me absolutly sure that I got a oes which from birth, got the best chance to become a great oes. Now it's up to me to keep Boo a good puppy that will be a challence, but I am confident that I will. |
| Claudia, what a beautiful puppy!!! |
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