Osama bin Laden has been killed in Pakistan
Time to bring our troops home. |
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| Very much agree!!! |
| My husband wants to see the timeline to all this. Because it seems weird that going off the agreed time this attack happened, it had only been 7 hrs. So how did they transport his body (after blood work and I'm sure a million other things) and get him out to sea? ...and what form of transportation did they use that was capable of getting him TO A SEA that fast? It a whole process when someone dies over there from Mr. J's actual experience, so I can't imagine all they had to do with this guy. Not saying their plan isn't to bury him out at sea, but maybe they didn't want the taliban to attack and overrun the base they had him at or many other reasons. |
| Mrs. J, I'm with your hubby on this! A lot of questions which the media is not asking....you know they would if a Repub was in office. The air force base here upped their security level Saturday, it was obvious something was going on. And since when can you get DNA results that quickly? Who is watching CSI? What branch of the Pakistan army/police was protecting this guy? Or would have been the ones to get the body back? Sea burial is for Muslims who die at sea.....but I also understand the reason why we didn't want to create a shrine. Even an unmarked grave could be traced. Definately a snatch and run to the carrier. Did the body ever touch a US ground base in Pakistan? Still it is done and time to evaluate the number of men/women in these various countries. Be curious to see how the vacuum is filled. Al Qaida in Yemen is another thorn. They were the ones who bombed the US bound plane. This is not the end of terrorism. |
| One report I heard was that there has been a specific plan for the capture or killing of Osama in place for years that outlines everything that would happen in every possible circumstance, including flying his body to sea for burial right away. Supposedly the details of that plan were put in place by the Clinton administration, and detailed even further during GWB's first term. CNN has this very basic timeline today: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiap ... .timeline/ Time has this one: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/05/02/tim ... bin-laden/ ABC: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... -line.html |
| Thanks Raquel.......exit via Afghanistan and probable aircraft exchange. Lots of miles to cover but entirely possible. Oh yeah, something that smooth was preplanned and rehearsed for years. |
| I'm just proud he was removed and I trust we are being given the truth, they are only going to share so much, rightly so. |
| I know very little about military operations, but my understanding is the following: 1. Muslim tradition (something we should respect, for political reasons if for no other reasons) mandates burial within 24 hrs of death. Hence the quick burial. 2. A sea burial was chosen to avoid creation of a shrine for bin Laden. 3. Of course this strike was planned. It was not a coincidence but the culmination of a lot of surveillance and intelligence. What I can tell you with absolute certainty is that if they already had DNA from bin Laden (which would not surprise me), they already had a profile. It takes maybe an hour to run a DNA test to compare two samples. How do I know this? I have done it. Obviously not for Osama bin Laden's samples. But if you have a qualified lab tech and the appropriate equipment, not a lengthy process. And they would have been prepared to establish the identity of bin Laden, to prove that he was indeed the person killed (or captured, if it had gone another way). I think the media is asking a lot of questions as should be asked and answered. At least they aren't being called un-American for asking them. |
| I'm sure they had familial DNA samples.....big family. Glad to hear DNA is faster than in my day. |
| They would have needed a sample from bin Laden himself. As you noted, it's a big family. Samples of close relations might be very similar to Osama's sample. Technology has improved and become much faster. In this case, of course, there would have been dedicated personnel and technology specifically to make the ID. |
| We had the DNA match from his sister's brain, which we subpoenaed when she died. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... brain.html |
| I would have like to see him captured alive and brought to the States. Not for a trial but for the purpose of keeping him locked up in a cage and brought from town to town so that Americans could yell at him, p**s on him and throw s**t at him (either theirs or their animals').  He should have been brought here, tortured to an inch of his life, nursed back to health, and repeated over & over again. |
rdf wrote: We had the DNA match from his sister's brain, which we subpoenaed when she died. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... brain.html DNA from a relative of Osama would only tell whether the sample from the person who was killed was a relative. It's tricky because we would want to establish beyond any doubt that the individual killed was Osama bin Laden and not merely a brother or cousin. |
tgir wrote: I think the media is asking a lot of questions as should be asked and answered. At least they aren't being called un-American for asking them. Give it a few days. |
Quote: It's tricky because we would want to establish beyond any doubt that the individual killed was Osama bin Laden and not merely a brother or cousin. Surely enough family members. Oh Goodie.....a conspiracy theory!  I'm sure some espionage books will pick up on that.  |
SheepieBoss wrote: Quote: It's tricky because we would want to establish beyond any doubt that the individual killed was Osama bin Laden and not merely a brother or cousin. Surely enough family members. Oh Goodie.....a conspiracy theory! I'm sure some espionage books will pick up on that. No, I don't think I've explained it very well. The US must establish beyond any reasonable doubt that the body is Osama Bin Laden. If they base DNA analysis off of DNA profiles of family members, they could only establish whether or not the body was a close relative. They need to have a DNA sample (or tissue sample from some previous event) known to be that of Osama bin Laden to establish with scientific certainty that the body was that of bin Laden. Given that he has a lot of relatives and that previously his capture had been found to be in fact, the capture of an imposter, close enough isn't good enough: it must be absolutely certain. Otherwise, Al Qaeda could claim that the body was that of an imposter or a brother or cousin, etc. |
| Is anybody else concerned that the US invaded another country and murdered an untried, unarmed man and others on the basis of information gathered from water boarding? Isn't assassination prohibited by law? Doesn't this make the President a war criminal? Why are we only killing brown-skinned people? Isn't this really just a racist policy? Did anyone give medical attention to this innocent, religious man or the others caught in the crossfire? Now that this family man has been murdered in his own bedroom, can we take our troops out of Afghanistan? Now that the man has been murdered in front of his wife, can we please have our Patriot-Act-stolen liberties restored as you promised in your campaign? Now that this administration's policies in the Middle East have caused so much instability and death, does the US have a responsibility to re-stabilize the region? I mean, if the media was REALLY asking the same questions as they posed to the Bush administration, they might ask questions like these. |
| Of course they are going to do a complete DNA work up so certain beyond doubt. In mean time what a nice conspriacy. I'm sure we got him. What I'd like to know is did he have that kidney problem reported 9 years ago and that reported would kill him in short order. I doubt it. Also the question of escape from Tora Bora. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/26/guantanamo-files-osama-bin-laden We will be seeing books on OBL for quite some time. |
| I was looking at the time line and both mr. J and I still don't think they dumped his body in the sea by 2 a.m. Afghanistan to kuwait alone is a 4hr flight (that would be the fastest plane they could have used) ...not including the dna testing, who knows maybe a small autopsy (curious about condition of his health?), etc. Anything smaller (plane) then you can almost double flight time. From there, they have to transport him to another plane big enough to put him in something and carry him and go to the next part of the trip to get him to sea. For now, I still think it was announced just to get the body cleared/out of the way to protect people in that area. I'm glad he's dead and again ...do believe the body will end up where they said ...just think some of the details being released are still sketchy. |
| According to reports, bin Laden wasn't unarmed. Indeed, he returned fire. And he or someone in his party used a woman, probably one of bin Laden's wives, as a shield. She died, as well as bin Laden, and two other men. There was a 40 minute fire fight as Navy Seals battled to the floor where bin Laden's family lived. Reports also say that bin Laden died from two gunshot wounds to the head. And of course it is true that Pakistan wasn't invaded: our forces went in with intelligence and cooperation from Pakistan. On the down low, of course, but none the less. BTW, if I were you, I would not tell any Saudi that he/she wasn't white. Innocent man? really? All that said and done, none of this makes me happy. My guess is that bin Laden would have preferred to die the way that he did rather than the way that Saddam Hussein died. Rather funny: remark about this administration causing so much instability in the region. Really. But no doubt that's how it will play out on some news stations. |
| I thought they said the action took place at 15:30 eastern time. The President spoke at 22:30, and they said he was buried within 3 hours of the President's speech? That'd be 10 hours. |
| All of your information is already dated. He was unarmed, shot in the head once and the chest once, and the woman killed was in another room, caught in the crossfire. At least that's what the administration is telling us this hour. tgir wrote: But no doubt that's how it will play out on some news stations. Yes, this president has fomented revolution across the middle east.You inferred that the press was asking the tough questions, but at least they weren't being called anti-American. All I wanted to do is show you the way the questions were asked of the Bush administration. Some of these I agree with, some I don't. Feel free to try and guess which are which. |
| Last night Wolf Blitzer, IMMEDIATELY after interviewing a man who laid out just how long the intelligence community and the white house had been working on this operation, said (referring to the President): "Well, I guess he got a 3AM phone call." Then he stumbled around on that for a bit, babble about decision making. Of course he was mocking First Lady and Presidential candidate Hilary Clinton's "3AM" commercial. He didn't even realize he was doing it, and didn't even realize it wasn't a 3AM call he was just told it was a long-planned operation. Can you guess which candidate he voted for based on that? |
Ron wrote: Yes, this president has fomented revolution across the middle east. Do you seriously see it that way? |
| My God yes. You don't? |
| No. IMO The actions of terrorists in the middle east are what has caused the constant upheaval. The Bush administrations' actions were necessary, and I agreed with them for the most part, however I prefer Obama's methods 110%. I think Obama is the right man to bring about peace. If not then I assume you guys will eventually vote in someone else who can kick their ass's eventually but at what cost? |
| The terrorists didn't cause revolution in Egypt or Syria or Lybia. The government has admitted they are in the countries on the ground with the CIA pushing revolution while the official policy of the government is different. I can't imagine how else one could see it other than fomenting revolution. Ends justifying the means, right or wrong, who knows, who can tell. But it is what it is. |
| ...and there will never be peace in the middle east until the Arabs recognize the Jew's right to exist in their own country, or Israel is defeated. The Arabs will never accept the Jews. So if you think there will be peace, you must expect Obama's policies to lead to the destruction of Israel. You good with that? |
| Hours later, Bin Laden's body was wrapped in white cloth, and – after, it is said, the administration of Islamic burial rites – it was weighted and dropped from a plank into the sea. The location was not revealed. "We don't want a bunch of people going to the shrine for ever," an official told the Washington Post. Bin Laden's body was taken to the US aircraft carrier Carl Vinson in the Arabian Gulf.  |
| An initial DNA analysis showed a "virtually 100 percent" match of the body against DNA of several bin Laden family members, a senior U.S. intelligence official said Monday. |
Ron wrote: Is anybody else concerned that the US invaded another country and murdered an untried, unarmed man and others on the basis of information gathered from water boarding? The only REAL question, as i had explained to me by a USMC General, was NOW who is going to be the NEXT one to come after us and be #1 most wanted? You have to think about that before you take someone out.I'm curious as to what Col. North would have to say? He told the USA YEARS before this man was a threat, and Clinton poo-poo'd the fact!NOPE Isn't assassination prohibited by law? Doesn't this make the President a war criminal? NOPE Why are we only killing brown-skinned people? Isn't this really just a racist policy? awww come on. Did anyone give medical attention to this innocent, religious man or the others caught in the crossfire?I'm sure not. Their mission was to get in, get B.L. dead or alive and get out. It was all done in 40 minutes . Navy Seals and Marine Recon are the tops and have things down to seconds. Coordinated Seconds. Now that this family man has been murdered in his own bedroom, can we take our troops out of Afghanistan?fine with me. let the rest of them kill each other off. Now that the man has been murdered in front of his wife, can we please have our Patriot-Act-stolen liberties restored as you promised in your campaign?who said he was killed in front of his wife, and which one would that have been? Now that this administration's policies in the Middle East have caused so much instability and death, does the US have a responsibility to re-stabilize the region?absolutely NOT! They've been fighting for 1000's of years, leave it to them........ I mean, if the media was REALLY asking the same questions as they posed to the Bush administration, they might ask questions like these. |
| Little has been 'said' or reported online or tv about what is going on in Mexico and South America. How many of the American Ambassadors have been 'ordered' out of the countries we are in in SA? You would be VERY surprised! My friend is the secretary to the Ambasador in Equdor and she (Ambassador) has been ordered out, as well as many other countries. Chavez is just evil and needs watching very seriously. Mexico is another problem and we need to get this border thing under control! From Texas to Calif terrorist can get across so easy. I remember seeing the maids/gardners etc being picked up in El Paso all the time. Their employers were there to pick them up at a set time BEFORE the border control could get to them! Whats to stop a terrorist from doing this??? just some thoughts! |
Ali wrote: Ron wrote: Is anybody else concerned that the US invaded another country and murdered an untried, unarmed man and others on the basis of information gathered from water boarding? The only REAL question, as i had explained to me by a USMC General, was NOW who is going to be the NEXT one to come after us and be #1 most wanted? You have to think about that before you take someone out. I'm curious as to what Col. North would have to say? He told the USA YEARS before this man was a threat, and Clinton poo-poo'd the fact!NOPE Isn't assassination prohibited by law? Doesn't this make the President a war criminal? NOPE Why are we only killing brown-skinned people? Isn't this really just a racist policy? awww come on. Did anyone give medical attention to this innocent, religious man or the others caught in the crossfire?I'm sure not. Their mission was to get in, get B.L. dead or alive and get out. It was all done in 40 minutes . Navy Seals and Marine Recon are the tops and have things down to seconds. Coordinated Seconds. Now that this family man has been murdered in his own bedroom, can we take our troops out of Afghanistan?fine with me. let the rest of them kill each other off. Now that the man has been murdered in front of his wife, can we please have our Patriot-Act-stolen liberties restored as you promised in your campaign?who said he was killed in front of his wife, and which one would that have been? Now that this administration's policies in the Middle East have caused so much instability and death, does the US have a responsibility to re-stabilize the region?absolutely NOT! They've been fighting for 1000's of years, leave it to them........ I mean, if the media was REALLY asking the same questions as they posed to the Bush administration, they might ask questions like these. Actually, Ali, Col. North himself has said that the popular claim that he warned against Osama Bin Laden is false--this is proven false on snopes.com. If you scroll down the page, you can see Col. North's reply: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.asp |
Ali wrote: I'm curious as to what Col. North would have to say? He told the USA YEARS before this man was a threat, and Clinton poo-poo'd the fact! I think that was Abu Nidal... North was in ethics trouble for accepting a gift of a security fence at his personal home and he blamed Abu Nidal. If I recall correctly. |
| i heard him on one night show too, saying Obama Bin Laden had threatened him as well........ hence the security measures at his house for HIS wife and children............... I just don't care let them all take care of themselves. And right now, frankly i wish N. Korea would GO OFF NUKLEAR on South Korea in Daegu and HIT the WOBANG 5 highrise apartment. I'd be a mighty richt woman if they did. |
| I know it's all the way down at the bottom of the link I posted, but according to Oliver North himself, he never warned anybody about a threat from Osama bin Laden because he didn't know he was a threat. . As Ron states, North reminds us that it was Abu Nidal---a Libyan who threatened to kill North and his family and that there were threats from a Libyan student group against North.. Quadaffi (you know, that charming guy who is having some problems with his people in LIBYA) made threats against North. Please scroll down to the bottom of the link to read North's response to the thousands of emails he has gotten asking about the emails going around the internet claiming he knew about Osama bin Laden and just wasn't believed. HE says it isn't true. |
| Read this story for a gripping account: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world ... anted=1&hp This is a triumph for America, Americans (and other justice-minded citizens of the world), whatever their political leaning should be proud. Osama Bin Laden was not just an enemy of the U.S., he was an enemy of Islam, and indeed the whole world. His immoral philosophy has been a disaster for the Muslim world, and he has been responsible for more death in the Muslim world than the deaths on 9/11. And whether you're a die-hard Republican or Democrat voter, I think it would be mean-spirited, and grossly unfair, to not have respect for Obama as Commander in Chief in this case. It is to his great credit and dignity that he could dismiss such trivial, meaningless foolishness like that clown Trump i.e. "such “silliness,” he told reporters, was distracting the country from more important things, like planning a high-risk operation to capture/kill America's no. 1 enemy. You can freely disagree vehemently with all of Obama's other policies. But this was the game-winning touchdown in the Superbowl. Be proud that justice has been done. |
| thank you david, couldn't have said it better. |
| I can't get that "ding dong the witch is dead" out of my head, but I can't make bin laden fit! This is a great relief, surely felt around the world. I can't stand obammy, but... I will give him the small amount of credit he deserves here. I really believe that he had fairly little to do with the raid. I believe it was a job well done by our armed forces personel, start to finish. The go-ahead and the yes and no answers that came from the chief made it possible. Thank god for our troops! (on every level) They are the ones out there getting it done. Shellie |
Baba wrote: Read this story for a gripping account: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world ... anted=1&hp And whether you're a die-hard Republican or Democrat voter, I think it would be mean-spirited, and grossly unfair, to not have respect for Obama as Commander in Chief in this case. It is to his great credit and dignity that he could dismiss such trivial, meaningless foolishness like that clown Trump i.e. "such “silliness,” he told reporters, was distracting the country from more important things, like planning a high-risk operation to capture/kill America's no. 1 enemy. You can freely disagree vehemently with all of Obama's other policies. But this was the game-winning touchdown in the Superbowl. Be proud that justice has been done. Thanks David, in my opinion which no one really cares about, this president cannot do anything right. I am very proud of the stance he took, it was a great risk to his presidency and I think he handled himself with tremendous grace and courage. Most of this is because of who he is and not what he is capable of. Again in my opinion, we should have gone after Osama in the first place and not invaded Iraq which did not have anything to do with 9/11. Sadam was not a good person by any means but he was not the fault of the attack. I know very few will agree with me but I am so sick of the snarky comments and lies that are being told I cannot keep my mouth shut. |
I for one, just don't get why people (all over the place..not just here  ) are making this out to be a political, Republican vs Democrat issue. This guy was an enemy to all of us, and things like this should unify us, not turn us on each other.Just my personal opinion  |
| BINGO!!!!! Only took two days for someone to start down the road to calling people un-American for criticizing the president! I just wanted to make a point. It was a great operation, but it saddened me deeply to see idiot kids (and some adults) dancing in the streets over the death of another, even one so evil as bin Laden. We set aside our principles to accomplish this task, there is no doubt. I'm glad we did. But a phrase runs through my mind, I had to look it up, then tweak it a bit... What does it profit a country to gain the whole world but lose its soul? |
Baba wrote: Read this story for a gripping account: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world ... anted=1&hp I read that last night. It is really a fantastic piece. |
I'm...confused Ron  Who made that accusation? Are you meaning here on the forum, or in the news somewhere? Is that how you interpreted my comment??  Ack! SO not what I meant!!!! |
ravenmoonart wrote: I'm...confused Ron No, that wasn't aimed at you all. Who made that accusation? Are you meaning here on the forum, or in the news somewhere? Is that how you interpreted my comment?? Ack! SO not what I meant!!!!Baba wrote: This is a triumph for America, Americans (and other justice-minded citizens of the world), whatever their political leaning should be proud. [...] And whether you're a die-hard Republican or Democrat voter, I think it would be mean-spirited, and grossly unfair, to not have respect for Obama as Commander in Chief in this case. [...] You can freely disagree vehemently with all of Obama's other policies. I UNDERTSTAND the emotions here. It is a wonderful and natural thing for people to rush to the defense of "their" president, regardless of whether "their" means 'of their country' in times of extreme stress, or 'of their party' in times of vigorous political disagreement. It is a very difficult thing to repress these emotions and to remain logical in stressful times. I mean, do you REALLY think it's unfair to criticize the President if you think his policies and actions have been unconstitutional? I think he can handle the criticism. Did you think the same way when people were criticizing the previous administration on the exact same grounds? Did you write long eloquent posts then decrying the attacks too? We as a country seem to have lost the capacity for being the 'loyal opposition.' The criticizers go way overboard, and the defenders follow suit. I stopped quickly because that's not what this forum is all about and I highly value everyone's friendship here. But I could easily alienate everyone or nearly everyone on the left here by following the same paths of criticism that caused some on the right to lose their minds. |
| Heh, he's not "my" president, I don't even have a president, and being really patriotic about America could be technically termed treasonous since I'm not American. I do find it odd to question Obama's right to execute this operation, since this was a stated goal by the US dating from fall of 2001, and it was the central goal to kill/capture bin laden and destroy Al-Queda for Nato troops to invade Afghanistan. So it was Bush's publicly declared goal (and you could argue how well he pursued that goal, I would say poorly, but either way that doesn't invalidate the correctness of the goal), Obama publicly stated during the presidential campaign he would pursue bin Laden and other important targets in Pakistan much more aggressively, and this he actually carried out with the results we see. So capturing/killing bin Laden has been a top priority and goal of American foreign policy under two different administrations for close to 10 years now. It's not coming as a surprise. To his credit, I think he made some good choices: Deciding on a (riskier in terms of American casualties) insertion of ground troops, and not just dropping 60 tons of smart bombs obliterating the compound: Bombing with precision weapons has been the default "safe" position of the US for a very long time now. Air power is powerful, but it has serious limits. From the most recent reports I have seen there were over 20 kids in the compound, 3 adult males, and some adult females. Some of the kids were toddlers. Regardless of who their parents were, you can't blame a 2 year old child, they have no control over who their parents were. Everyone would have been vapourized. So great success to end up with none of the children harmed. And also, this way they were able to confirm bin Laden was dead. If they had just vapourized the compound with smart bombs, they would never know for sure if bin Laden had actually been present and died. I don't think I was stating any criticism of Obama is un-patriotic. I do think that this one act has been a gimme for Obama. You can despise Obama's healthcare plan, you can think he's terrible for the economy, you can never vote democratic in your life. That's all fine and your right, I am not questioning that. But I really don't get this all-or-nothing partisanism in American politics now, i.e. Republicans are ALWAYS right no matter what, and Democrats ALWAYS wrong no matter what, and vice-versa (so whatever Obama does it's 100% wrong and he will never be right. Same with Bush). I think every politician will be right on somethings, wrong on others, and often lie (and in my cynical view, most politicians' starting point are corrupt lying adulterous weasels  ) . If I was an American citizen, I would probably agree with some of the policies and disagree with others for whatever politician I voted for. And this is true of the Canadian politicians and parties I vote for. |
| I agree with you 98%. What I disagree with is when you say something is a gimme, and it's OK to criticize everything else. "You" don't get to decide what "I" am upset about and what I want to criticize. Reiterating, having a loyal opposition takes both sides to calm the heck down and respect each other and not make wild accusations in either direction. It's OK to disagree about anything, as long as the argument is about fact and policy and is done with respect for the office. It's OK to disagree with the opposition, without calling into question motives. Can't we all just get along? We're ALL (North) Americans. We share tons and tons of fundamental beliefs. |
| **cough** manifest destiny **cough** |
| Super points, David. The thing I resent the most in politics is the constant assumption that "the right" is collectively all of the same mind in the opinion of the left and vice-versa. I make sure I do not associate all people who identify with one party or the other as of the same mind. There is a wide variety of opinions within the parties. Not all Democrats are pro-choice. Not all Republicans believe in the death penalty. There are a huge number of fiscally conservative Democrats as there are socially liberal Republicans. It's unfair to paint everybody in one party or the other with the same brush. So the "but the left decried Bush" argument doesn't float with me at all. Taking into consideration the entire picture, all of the details and reasons for the actions - they're night and day. What one president chose to do in one set of circumstances really has nothing to do with what the other chose to do under other circumstances. And it has nothing to do with left, right, liberal, conservative, Democrat or Republican. |
| I agree with you, you (and everyone else) always has the right to criticize, in America it's constitutionally protected, and pretty rock-solidly so. My reference to it being a "gimme" is that I believe it's hard to come up with reasonable criticism of Obama for this, unless one was also against the past 9 years of American foreign policy in regards to bin Laden and Al-Queda, not that it's disloyal to criticize. I do suspect that there are Americans out there (and not implying anyone on this board) who have mentally compiled a long list of objections and criticisms about what Obama did wrong with this bin Laden operation, who, if this same exact operation occurred in 2007 with GWB giving the go-ahead, they would have been out climbing lamp-posts wearing Stars and Stripes capes cheering "USA!, USA!" I also concur that there may also some Americans out there who are currently cheering for Obama, would would have been calling GWB a war-criminal for the same exact operation if it had occurred in 2007. In my opinion, both sets of people are extremely pig-headed and hypocritical.  I would have cheered this bin Laden operation the same whether it occurred in 2007 under GWB or as it did today with Obama. |
Baba wrote: I would have cheered this bin Laden operation the same whether it occurred in 2007 under GWB or as it did today with Obama. That's what happened, and it stays that way until the 'patriotism' fades and the political wingers and operatives begin their job of re-dividing the people.That's why I said wait a couple of days. |
Baba wrote: I believe it's hard to come up with reasonable criticism of Obama for this, unless one was also against the past 9 years of American foreign policy in regards to bin Laden and Al-Queda, not that it's disloyal to criticize. I think it is fair game to criticize violating another country's sovereignty with a full blown military operation, unless we are at war with that country. I'm OK that we did. But it's not OK that that we did. I'm thrilled that we killed bin Laden. But its not OK that we killed him. I support the President's decision and actions, and I am thrilled with the outcome. I'm saddened by what we did. If the US decided to not prosecute or extradite a suspected Nazi war criminal, would it be OK for Israel to mount a military strike inside the US to kill him? If they couldn't get close enough logistically, would it be OK for them to lob in some cruise missiles into suburban Detroit to kill him? Just because we can get away with it, and just because I support it, doesn't make it right. Others might disagree with my decision to support it, based on the same reasoning. Does that make their position untenable? Are they wrong not to hold their tongues? |
| That is fair criticism, but I do think the circumstances justified it. I think in that way it was very similiar to Israel's operation to kidnap and smuggle Adolf Eichmann out of Argentina. Every part of it was completely illegal according to international and Argentinian law. And the resulting international political fall out was very similiar as well (with the exception that the government of Israel completely denied involvement for a significant time). I am glad they did it, I do believe it was justified. And I think Eichmann's hanging was completely justified and deserved. In both cases, they could have attempted legal and diplomatic means (attempt to have Pakistan security forces capture bin Laden/attempt to have Eichmann arrested in Argentina and extradited) |
ICH wrote: Thanks David, in my opinion which no one really cares about, this president cannot do anything right. I know very few will agree with me but I am so sick of the snarky comments and lies that are being told I cannot keep my mouth shut. Ilene, You are so right. Obama gets no credit for taking OBL out; it was all the work done before he took office that lead to this. Yet if there was a terrorist attack on American soil, they would be the first people to blame him for it. Another example: Obama inherits the 2nd worse economy in the history of this country and somehow it's his fault. When it's brought up that all of this happened under Bush's watch, the standard answer is "stop looking in the past". Yet when it comes to the death of OBL, that's all they want to do; look in the past. |
| Yeah, you're right. Everyone wants to credit their guy and disparage the other. Well, all the wingers. I look to the past to blame the previous administration for employing torture in my name to get the info that ultimately led to this operation. Are you for or against torture? |
| In most cases, whatever it takes. Shellie |
Shellie wrote: In most cases, whatever it takes. hahahha! Shellie  |
| you almost dragged me into the torture subject, i just erased it. i will say those that decry it the loudest in my opinion also scream the loudest when a catastrophe has occurred. remember, that waterboarding saved alot of other lives from other planned attacks, not just the whereabouts of obl. http://cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?i ... opicid=512 |
| The way torture works is this: It is not authorized or official in any way, and is done in secret by rogue members of the military who, if discovered are dishonorably discharged, and they fall on their swords for their country. It should never be officially sanctioned by the country. What is next for the United States, a gulag? BTW One argument against my line of reasoning might be Quote: "No, I don't agree with torture and it is against everything I stand for. However, sometimes in exigent circumstances we have to do things we would never condone in normal times, and we undertake these things sparingly and with the greatest of sadness. As torture relates to the current operation, we already had this information in hand and we should not stand on ceremony and discard it. This is not a criminal trial, this is war. Speaking of war, that is why violating the sovereignty of Pakistan was acceptable. They were harboring a man who was actively engaged in a declared war against the United States, and we have the right to take military action against him. If you feel violated, feel free to visit the United Nations and lodge a formal complaint, and sue us for reparations. Here is your $100,000 for your troubles." Just sayin'. |
| And I would say the following: It is easy to be virtuous and stand by ideals in good times. It is in very difficult times that define our real character: are we willing to stand by our ideals or abandon them for expediency? Hard times define us as individuals, as a society, as a nation. It is during hard times and difficult, impossible situations that we must hold close to our ideals, our sense of what is right and what kind of people we wish to be. |
| OK then, are you willing to give up your ideals and use the intelligence that was garnered through torture to go kill bin Laden? You will not endorse torture, but you're OK with invading a sovereign nation? But you've asserted that the government did work with Pakistan but on the down low. Not what the government says: Quote: After the U.S. team was safely out of the country, officials said, Obama and other members of the national security team began calling government leaders in Pakistan and Afghanistan and members of Congress. Source: http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=63787So you're saying the administration is lying to us when they say they didn't tell Pakistan until after the raid. So lying to our own people is ok, OR invading a sovereign nation is ok. Not a great choice in strictly adhering to our ideals. |
| Can everyone tell I don't usually see things in terms of black and white? What's the right thing to do? Is it good or is it bad? I could NEVER function as the President, I'd second guess myself to death. |
| Ron I think that you just made it clear why being in charge must be so difficult (and in the process you hurt my brain-I think that a piece of it broke off and floated away!). And in many ways why being in the military must be so difficult. It isn't black and white. I remember having a discussion with someone about whether or not, if you knew then what we know now, and you had the opportunity, would you kill Hitler. Or Stalin. Or whatever other sociopath with power that you could name. I think that the fact that there is such internal struggle with this situation shows moral strength. In more operational terms, I am amazed and impressed that the military experts were able to do this without having those poor kids killed. |
| I hate politics!! I hate that people fight over religious differences. I think your religion is a "personal belief" and should be kept that way. Unfortunately it is also the cause of most wars...differences. All this being said, I am glad Bin Laden is dead. His cause killed a lot of people in one of the most scary and surreal moments of my life. I am not celebrating. I am just glad an evil murderous man is dead. |
| yes ron, you take great care of the forum and thanks. you aren't damned if you do or don't here. |
| They found Bin Laden's jounal in the raid. The last entry said: " Oh someones at the door, i need to go answer it."    sorry couldn't resist |
| Not to totally dredge up the whole issue....but: I came across this very interesting article on the technology that is use to protect and enhance dogs on the job - military, police, search and rescue. The title and interest are sparked d/t the dogs used in the bin Laden compound invasion, but this is really a good article! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43068421/ns ... ?gt1=43001 |
got sheep wrote: Not to totally dredge up the whole issue....but: I came across this very interesting article on the technology that is use to protect and enhance dogs on the job - military, police, search and rescue. The title and interest are sparked d/t the dogs used in the bin Laden compound invasion, but this is really a good article! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43068421/ns ... ?gt1=43001 Neat it's a Canadian company based in Winnipeg. Would be a very cool company to work for. |
Baba wrote: got sheep wrote: Not to totally dredge up the whole issue....but: I came across this very interesting article on the technology that is use to protect and enhance dogs on the job - military, police, search and rescue. The title and interest are sparked d/t the dogs used in the bin Laden compound invasion, but this is really a good article! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43068421/ns ... ?gt1=43001 Neat it's a Canadian company based in Winnipeg. Would be a very cool company to work for.So, how long of a commute is that?? |
got sheep wrote: Baba wrote: got sheep wrote: Not to totally dredge up the whole issue....but: I came across this very interesting article on the technology that is use to protect and enhance dogs on the job - military, police, search and rescue. The title and interest are sparked d/t the dogs used in the bin Laden compound invasion, but this is really a good article! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43068421/ns ... ?gt1=43001 Neat it's a Canadian company based in Winnipeg. Would be a very cool company to work for.So, how long of a commute is that??  About as far as Sheepiepalooza from our place... We have really been confusing our poor non-dog friends with the admission that "Yes, we're driving the equivalent of Ottawa-Winnipeg, and back. For a weekend. For a playdate. For our dog." Most people think we're mental... |
So, would it be more logical to them if you said it was a roadtrip for bourbon??  |
| With a couple of my friends. Yes, yes it would sound more logical. (Ron, where's that facepalm emoticon we asked for?? ) |
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