Tell me about the birds and the bees, please!
-how many eggs does a dog produce? When during a cycle are they produced? Is that what is called 'heat'? How often does that happen and at what age does it begin to happen? -how long does an egg stick around waiting for fertilization? -Dawn had mentioned, in another post, about the possibility of two fathers in one litter. I am guessing that this is because there might have been some unfertilized eggs floating around when a second male dog had his wicked way? From a breeder's perspective, is this kind of thing a good thing or a bad thing? -not to be graphic, but, if a dog is NOT pregnant, is it the same deal for dogs as it is for women? Do dogs at some age have a menopausal stage, if they are not fixed, where things just gradually stop? I am not thinking of going into breeding or anything like that, I just like to understand how things work! |
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| I hope I am not talking out turn, but asking these questions makes me think you are thinking/planning on breeding. Please think hard about that. We all want to keep the breed as healthy and happy as possible. We do not need too many dogs out there. There are too few homes available. If you are are thinking of breeding. Please think hard about it. Please leave it to the pros and those that have extensive experience. |
Nah Kim's not thinking of breeding Mady.  I'll leave the answers to the experts. |
Mim... I'm not sure why you'd think that comment was funny.  Mady wrote: ... I wish that there was some kind of support group for people with new puppies, to help them get past the sometimes rough spots (remember that post about me standing on the sofa crying, while a tiny Mady bark bark barked at me!  )... Can you imagine having 6 or 8 puppies, Kim?  |
| Well, I am not thinking of breeding either. I would certainly leave this to the experts which I am not one of. I am curious of these answers as well. I think it is an interesting topic and I am glad she brought it up so we can be educated! I didn't even know how long a heat lasted but since we have this forum, I am now aware! |
| I am positive Kim will not be breeding Mady. Not only is she on a non-breeding agreement (I am her breeder) but she has also been spayed. I do have the answers to all of your questions Kim, but I will have to post later as I am at my moms for Easter dinner and just popped in here quickly. |
| Well....... The heat cycle will begin in bitches between ages 4 months (minatures) to 14 months in larger breeds. Heat cycle are divided into proestrus, estrus metestrus and anestrus. (quiz at end ) Wait, here's a web site with more info......probably better than I could present it anyway: http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0052/ |
Mady wrote: I am not thinking of going into breeding or anything like that, I just like to understand how things work! Quoting myself here as it seems like my earlier statement about how I am NOT going into breeding must have been missed. I am not even remotely interested, nor have the skills, nor the desire, nor the experience to breed. It is not something I consider doing now nor in the future. If I want a puppy, I will call Amber (after having begged David for months, of course). Or I would contact one of the rescue folks. Or I will steal the adorable Charm from Sheepiepalooza  I am NOT going into breeding! I just find that, being on this forum, from time to time things get mentioned that make me ponder. In this case it was some post about whether or not two dogs were siblings, even though they didn't look alike. And Dawn mentioned the possibility of two fathers. Now you guys don't know me, but I am a bit of a geek and I like to understand the things that I am pondering! So in this case, I could easily have called Amber, and I know that she would have graciously answered, like she always does with my questions. But I figured, hey, if I am pondering, maybe someone else is too, so if I ask on the forum we all get the answers! So fear not, I am not sneakily trying to get information so that I can become an uber breeder of sheepies! I am just a geek. |
From a fellow GEEK ........... GOOD question.  |
Aha, the adorable Charm has not been spayed!!...the breeding plot thickens....  |
auntybren wrote: Aha, the adorable Charm has not been spayed!!...the breeding plot thickens.... My secret plan has been revealed!  |
| I'm with you Kim, I like to know these things too but also never had any plans on breeding, so thanks for asking the question. |
| Even if Kim was thinking of breeding her spayed dog it is a good thing she is asking questions! (all good questions) I do hope Mady brings Charm on her picnic tour of the country!  |
Mady wrote: -how many eggs does a dog produce? When during a cycle are they produced? Is that what is called 'heat'? How often does that happen and at what age does it begin to happen? -how long does an egg stick around waiting for fertilization? -Dawn had mentioned, in another post, about the possibility of two fathers in one litter. I am guessing that this is because there might have been some unfertilized eggs floating around when a second male dog had his wicked way? From a breeder's perspective, is this kind of thing a good thing or a bad thing? -not to be graphic, but, if a dog is NOT pregnant, is it the same deal for dogs as it is for women? Do dogs at some age have a menopausal stage, if they are not fixed, where things just gradually stop? I am not thinking of going into breeding or anything like that, I just like to understand how things work! How many eggs varies a great deal and depends on things like breed/size - the larger the breed, the more eggs are released, typically - and age. Just like ladies, the older the uterus...bitches really should be bred young from a reproductive point of view. Technically bitches are on a continuous "cycle": Proestrus: typically marked by the start of vaginal discharge Estrus: estrogen levels decrease while progesterone levels are increasing. The pituitary gland releases a surge of Luteinizing Hormone (LH) which in turn triggers ovulation. A bitch may "stand" (be receptive to mating) during this entire period, however, the released eggs take a day to maybe three to mature, and then are only viable for about 12-72 hours as I recall. Whether or not the bitch is bred/takes, all intact bitches then progress to Diestrus, which lasts about a couple of months and coincides with pregnancy in a successfully bred bitch. Even bitches who were not bred go through hormonal changes and some will exhibit signs of pregnancy even when they are not (false pregnancies). Then things will settle down hormonally and the bitch progresses to Anestrus - think of this as the uterus' chance to take a rest as hormones settle down again - duration can vary significantly from bitch to bitch. I'm not sure why it's called "heat". It's also called "being in season". Bitches in season aren't permitted to compete in agility, so if your bitch comes in right around that time in order to get your entry fee, or at least most of it, back (for trials that allow this), you need something from your vet stating the bitch is in season. My vet wrote a very cute note for Mad at one point. Something like, "Please excuse Maddie from your agility trial as she is in estrus". I thought it was hilarious at any rate Most of us don't go around talking about our bitches being in estrus (or pre-estrus) so I guess we need some more casual expressions to get the idea across. Season is more common in my circles, but...?Yes, you can have multiple sires and, yes, there can be advantages to going this route (usually the situation is: you have an older - age 4+ is pretty mature in a large breed like ours - bitch who has never been bred (i.e. reproductively not a great bet), you want to breed her to a dog who is long gone, but there's (aged) frozen semen available - also not the greatest reproductive bet. If she doesn't take, you may not get another chance to breed her, so you breed to the frozen semen dad, and also to a younger, more virile male, you hope for puppies and whatever puppies you do get have to be DNA tested for paternity. In fact I was just talking to a breeder last night about this exact situation. She ended up with three puppies and she's on pins and needles waiting for the results. As for menopause, no, not really. A bitch won't stop having seasons, the uterus just gets more and more worn out for every season (the constant flux of hormones takes its toll) so at an older age most bitches could probably have themselves a big old party if they so desired and never get pregnant, judging by the hoops we often jump through to get a 5-7 year old bred. Though I wouldn't bank on it  Most OES are not bred beyond the age of 7 or so. It's not a rule. Every bitch is different. It just generally doesn't happen.Kristine |
Thank you Kristine!!  |
| psht - de nada. There's much more to add so room for others to jump in. For instance, still waiting to hear how the spayed Mady is intending to reproduce  Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: psht - de nada. There's much more to add so room for others to jump in. For instance, still waiting to hear how the spayed Mady is intending to reproduce Kristine Maybe she is planning on being a foster Mom!!! |
| The same way upright Mommas who don't have the working equipment do it: adoption. But please don't wait until she is of grandmother age to bring in a newbie. Even older unbred bitches deserve peace and quiet. |
SheepieBoss wrote: The same way upright Mommas who don't have the working equipment do it: adoption. But please don't wait until she is of grandmother age to bring in a newbie. Even older unbred bitches deserve peace and quiet. The funny thing is that among my bitches who have had a litter some are perennial mamas: this is Liz with a puppy I was babysitting for a friend. They're not related, Liz hadn't been around her before she came to stay with me, she just saw her and immediately said,  thank you for bringing me a puppy   I think Liz was about 7 or 8 at the time. (Please note that no puppies were harmed in the taking of these photos ) This is the same puppy with Liz' mom, Belle - probably about ten or eleven years old at that time. Belle, too, feels all puppies are hers to raise (though she doesn't get as weird about it as Liz!!!)  Mind you, the only other bitch in the house who had had a litter was Mad and Mad looked at the puppy and said, come closer little #### and I will show you how the big bitches play!  She didn't go out of her way to harrass the puppy. She would just clack her teeth at her when puppyt came by and then grin So eternal universal love of puppies is not a given My other girls who have never had a litter just treat visiting puppies like play mates - they don't tend to mother them (whether puppy wants it or not! ) like former mamas. This is Sybil, who'se never had a litter, with same puppy:  Kristine |
| Those are adorable You just added to my puppy fever Nope, not even thinking of it, just dreaming of it! I have been almost a year without a torn up shoe, why start over Donner's Mom who keeps getting logged out  |
| My youngest are five (except for rescue dog who is three). This week's shoe destruction total: one boot and one slipper. They were better behaved as puppies! Well, except Sybil. Boy dog learned how to open closet!!! So proud of himself. Probably took him till age five to figure out how Kristine |
| I thought I was safe now that Tiggy is 3 and seems to have had a few brain cells connect in the past couple of months. But I was deluded. It turns out she only likes NEW shoes and slippers. When I got up this morning she made a beeline for my new winter slippers and then did victory runs up and down the corridor with the slippy in her mouth. She's quite upset with me now that it's on my foot. |
| I did say SHOES ......what I didn't mention was the destruction of buttons, zippers, blankets, toilet paper etc |
Mim wrote: :lol: I thought I was safe now that Tiggy is 3 and seems to have had a few brain cells connect in the past couple of months.But I was deluded. It turns out she only likes NEW shoes and slippers. When I got up this morning she made a beeline for my new winter slippers and then did victory runs up and down the corridor with the slippy in her mouth. She's quite upset with me now that it's on my foot. Shame on you for wearing Tiggy's toys!!! |
| Tiggy likes you a lot Kathy. She says you have proper respect for sheepies and their possessions. She wants to know when you're coming over to sort out her uprights. |
Mim wrote: Tiggy likes you a lot Kathy. She says you have proper respect for sheepies and their possessions. She wants to know when you're coming over to sort out her uprights.  I am going to go pack now Tiggy! |
| Has Tiggy taken to chewing on her new toys while they are on your feet? Crumpet would do that. Sybil as a mother.......... ........maybe it would connect some brain cells or you'd have a whole litter of little Sybils I'm still trying to think of a consort for Chewie....is there a bitch here with the same concentrated work ethic, good nature? |
| [quote="SheepieBoss"]Has Tiggy taken to chewing on her new toys while they are on your feet? Crumpet would do that. quote] Only on occasion when they're running!!! |
| how nice you animate her toys! |
| Thank you for the informative responses-I really do like to understand these processes! And for the amusing posts too! Mady is terrific with puppies. She would be a wonderful foster mum. As for the shoe eating, Mady doesn't do that, so I need to make sure she doesn't read any of your shoe eating posts and get any ideas! |
| Well, don't let her read about the zippers eithers...it was a COLD winter without zippers on our jackets! |
SheepieBoss wrote: Sybil as a mother.......... ........maybe it would connect some brain cells or you'd have a whole litter of little Sybils I'm still trying to think of a consort for Chewie....is there a bitch here with the same concentrated work ethic, good nature? Sybil is the most maternal critter I've ever met. She "raised" the rescue critter and insists on cleaning her brother - whether he wants her to or not That said, one cannot risk a litter of opinionated Syblets.  It's unlikely Chewie will ever be called into service so to speak, reproductively. He's a lovely little dog, emphasis little, probably closer to what a true working OES should be like, but there's just not enough of him for what most bitches these days need. Good natured is pretty characteristic of most OES these days, boys tending to be easier going than the girls as a general rule. "Work ethic" is somewhat harder to breed for as this is a complex trait in any event. His dam has it in spades, but a different kind, much more intense, more like what you might see in a border collie, I've not seen it in a single puppy so some of it is probably a product of the way she was raised. I was pretty single minded with her and had a lot more time on my hands Mace and Chewie are more typical of the line in general and have what you would more broadly refer to as biddability. It will be interesting to see what I get out of Mace, if anything, given her age  Kristine |
| I'm a geek too! Thanks for the info! |
Mad Dog wrote: psht - de nada. There's much more to add so room for others to jump in. For instance, still waiting to hear how the spayed Mady is intending to reproduce Kristine The same way you get pregnant after your tubes are tired, I um mean tied. |
Betsy wrote: Mad Dog wrote: For instance, still waiting to hear how the spayed Mady is intending to reproduce Kristine The same way you get pregnant after your tubes are tired, I um mean tied. Oh you DIDN'T! Here we go. Every spayed bitch with access to a computer will be on this thread and we'll never hear the end of it Kristine |
| Good one Betsy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Donner's Mom wrote: :lol: Good one Betsy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh Yes, here we go!!!  |
Mad Dog wrote: My youngest are five (except for rescue dog who is three). This week's shoe destruction total: one boot and one slipper. They were better behaved as puppies! Well, except Sybil. Boy dog learned how to open closet!!! So proud of himself. Probably took him till age five to figure out how Kristine Would you quit picking on the boy! |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Mad Dog wrote: My youngest are five (except for rescue dog who is three). This week's shoe destruction total: one boot and one slipper. They were better behaved as puppies! Well, except Sybil. Boy dog learned how to open closet!!! So proud of himself. Probably took him till age five to figure out how Kristine Would you quit picking on the boy! I know, I know. I love my boy dog. He's just the sweetest, cuddliest thing. But growing up in the shadow of his two sisters and his super accomplished bro...poor dude Kristine |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Mad Dog wrote: My youngest are five (except for rescue dog who is three). This week's shoe destruction total: one boot and one slipper. They were better behaved as puppies! Well, except Sybil. Boy dog learned how to open closet!!! So proud of himself. Probably took him till age five to figure out how Kristine Would you quit picking on the boy! Agreed from a reformed all female sheepie house with one with the dingle dangles invading!!!  Back to the "Birds and the Bees" my at the time 5 year old sons version, he noticed one of the girls was bleeding and got all upset as he thought she was injured. Well how do you tell a kid at that age without way too much detail and age appropriate what is happening? We gave him a real basic reason why she was bleeding to calm him down that she was not sick or injured.Well his version at that age ended up in his school diary and we got his version of things at "Parent, Teacher" interviews. The teacher had the biggest laugh as well as us. I still remind him of that and embarrass the hell out of him still, he is 27 now. Oh and I also have sheepie girls that are some sort of Hybrid with a chicken and lay eggs. His version at age 5 There has to be a girl dog and a boy dog and if they are not married then the girl dog when she lays an egg it is washed away and no babies for her in her tummy. That's the short version you should of seen his page and a half in his diary trying to explain the "Birds and the Bees" I still have his school diary and good for a laugh and good to embarrass him now he is grown, I still on occassions bring it up. Mommas revenge after the embarrassing teacher interview when he was 5 |
| ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah, Lisa - thanks so much for the laugh Kristine |
| LOL Priceless Lisa |
| Remember that post, asking what our favorite thread ever on the forum was? This one is SO my fave now! |
| Lisa, if your son isn't married yet, I hope you or your husband quote the tale in a wedding speech! |
| No he's not married yet! I'll mention to Lisa's DH that he should add it to his speech. |
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