Dog aggression in our breed.
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| Great question, Wendy~~~ I hope to hear more about what OESCA is doing, if anything.... |
| By "postings" do you mean Petfinder listings? We've listed rescues as "no other dogs" not necessarily because they are dog aggressive but we feel they would do best in a more quiet environment or are possibly a very needy dog that requires or deserves the one-on-one attention from their people. Bringing any new dog into a pack or even with just one other dog can be tricky. There's generally some resource guarding issues or "power struggle" between dogs. Most issues can be worked out but some unfortunately some cannot. We have fostered 50+ OES in our home in the past few years and there were only two that were unpredictable to the point of being unable to be placed with other dogs due to dog aggression. Had their issues not been more complex than that they may have been able to successfully placed as well. Here on the forum I haven't noticed many people asking for help with dog aggressive dogs. Most are just newly obtained dogs that are working out their differences, owners who are new to the breed and any negative reaction between dogs is viewed as "aggression". Taking longer for the dogs to settle in than their owners expected. There are people out there whose dogs really could be considered dangerous to each other. I know them personally and all the vet bills they've incurred because of it. But there aren't an overwhelming number of dogs like that. Does Bella react this way around all other dogs or just with Nigel?  |
| Bella was aggressive with all dogs. I sent her to the bridge this morning. My vet and I felt that Nigel was less submissive with her because she wasn't feeling well. All the meds for all the illnesses and problems she had seemed to be taking a toll. Since I was her 4th home this seemed the kindest thing to do. The postings were through people on Facebook but they were either petfinder or possibly one OES rescue. It was just that I saw two in the same hour. I am also a FB friend with a judge who was recently bitten at a show in Europe. I just brought this up because I feel it is a concern in our breed. I have had a number of OES in the past, and I have had aggression issues with 3 bitches and 2 dogs. I have only had 2 dogs without. I am just concerned. |
| My other "breed" really stresses temperment in breeding, it's right there in the standards. I can remember several rescues put down because of this issue. Having been with Martha the other day at a therapy dog testing I am doubly grateful of this obession with the breeders. A reputable breeder would not have aggressive dogs (I pray) in the "family pack". But BYBs and mass breeders who keep their dogs islolated and confined don't give a hoot about temperament. We stress the pup must be with the mother for at least 2 months to learn their doggie manners......what happens when Mom is insane/aggressive? Finally I'm also faulting owners. Early puppy training is critical. There's a short window to get the dog properly socialized and adjusted before aggression becomes imprinted. Too few people know how to handle a young dog....especially the "teenage" dogs. What is it we say, the adolesceent males lose their mind for awhile, but with patience and training from the owner, will find it again. OK, thinking of Sybil.......it can happen to bitches as well. If you want a big cuddly sheepdog but aren't going to put in the effort into training it, get a stuffed toy dog. |
When I first started posting here ...yearsssssss ago  ...there were ALWAYS posts about aggression. I noted it then in a post too. I haven't seen many at all since then. So I had the opposite impression.  |
| Wendy, I am so sorry to hear about Bella. You were very patient with her and she was one of the few whose issues obviously ran deep. Regardless, you loved her and did your best to work through her issues. I know it was a tough call for you. |
SheepieBoss wrote: Finally I'm also faulting owners. Early puppy training is critical. There's a short window to get the dog properly socialized and adjusted before aggression becomes imprinted. Too few people know how to handle a young dog....especially the "teenage" dogs. What is it we say, the adolesceent males lose their mind for awhile, but with patience and training from the owner, will find it again. OK, thinking of Sybil.......it can happen to bitches as well.  Well, Sybil still regularly loses her mind and she just turned 5, but she is the anti-aggression poster child who loses her mind to run over and kiss judges and ring crew and fall into children's laps when she's supposed to be working, and has never met a dog she didn't like, so be careful what thread you draw her into Otherwise I absolutely agree with you that early training and socialization is important. That said, quite frankly, sound temperament is a sound temperament and can at the very least withstand benevolent neglect with only minor ill effects if any. Aggression does not need to be countered if the seeds of it really aren't there to begin with. However, if you have a dog with that kind of tendency, the dog's life could depend on how effectively the owner addresses these issues at an early age, yes. I was talking to a long time OESCA breeder last night who also does herding and I was "complaining" that my dogs are a bit on the soft side from a working point of view, however they make great companions and, ultimately, though I'd personally prefer not to have any of my dogs end up in a pet home, but would rather have all working homes, the reality is that some are going to end up in pet homes and they'd better be bomb proof from that perspective. The other breeder agreed. I think that's why you see relatively few dogs with temperament problems in show lines. At least in North America. Temperament problems can pop up, just like anything else. But it's considered a serious genetic flaw and the more serious cases are typically dealt with quite severely. Wendy, I'm so sorry about Bella. Though I absolutely understand.  Kristine |
| This is interesting. Two vets have told me that aggression runs in this breed. I have had experience with two that were. I too agree early socializing is important, but at times that does not work. I have had the opportunities to meet several OESes and 99% were just goof balls and loving. Most of you have had much more experience than I. |
| I was Bella's breeder. I had her mother come to me and I had to "fulfill" my contract to her breeder. If it had been up to me i would never have done it. Her mother also didn't like any other females. BOTH WERE REMOVED FROM MY BREEDING PROGRAM I had Bella and tried and tried. She would be fine until the other bitches came into season. Then all holy hell would break out. I made the decision as i was by myself she needed to go to another home. We tried one other, and she came back to me. I called Wendy and She took her. For a while things were great..........but there were still issues there lurking underneath i would hear when we talked. Honestly I blame a lot on Norm for this as i was taking care of my mom and working 3 jobs at that time and he was home with her........... as far as socializing. For a long time Bella did well with Nigel. I don't know what triggered the problem but somthing went haywire and the aggression didn't matter at that point i guess. I agree with Wendy's vet that she was probably in pain, and that added to the situation. Wendy as hard as it was, it was as i told you the correct thing to do and the time. You helped and loved Bella thru so very much, more above and beyond what anyone else would have ever done. And i thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the love you all gave her. Ali |
oesmom2 wrote: This is interesting. Two vets have told me that aggression runs in this breed. I have had experience with two that were. I too agree early socializing is important, but at times that does not work. I have had the opportunities to meet several OESes and 99% were just goof balls and loving. Most of you have had much more experience than I. My vet thought that way back in the mid 1970's when I had my first OES so I wouldn't say it's a downward trend. But that's not being "dog aggressive", which was Wendy's situation. Besides, few veterinarians are behaviorists and they do see the worst in many dogs since the vet clinic isn't often a dog's favorite place to visit. Since OES are fairly rare, a vet is going to remember the ones they see better than a Labrador or Poodle. Hey, I'm not a behaviorist but I'll bet I've worked with more OES than most vets! There are different types of "aggression", caused by fear, resource guarding, other dogs, deep voices, kids... Lots of things. I personally HATE the word "aggression" because it means different things to different people. A dog almost has to take my arm off before I'd admit it was aggressive and to others a lip curl is equally threatening. I agree with Kristine about few OES show lines exhibiting signs of orneriness although one dog stands out in my mind. Poorly-bred dogs tend to exhibit negative behavior more often because the breeders want to push them out the door ASAP and collect their $$$. They don't get the early socialization they need. In rescue we often get dogs surrendered that come from the same breeders that are like this and their temperaments can be all over the map. Having said that, many rescues from questionable beginnings can also turn out to be fabulous dogs with the most even temperaments. I'm sticking with my original opinion that the trend in "aggression" really hasn't changed much over the years. |
| A trip to a dog show and you'll probably never see an aggressive dog. Wouldn't work in that situation. As several of us have mentioned, bad temperment coming from breeders who don't care for more than the money, not the breed. We don't know Bella's problem......how we wish we could ask. She was emotionally miserable, poor thing. Yes, aggression is not one malady......there are many different types and must be dealt with appropriately in each case. As for vets.......and groomers, yep one bad sheepdog and they remember because they encounter so few. |
| I agree with you Nita as my first OES was somewhat dog aggressive. We had 3 intact males in our home and he was the last one in. In hindsight it could have been that the GSD always growled at him when he walked by. This was in the 70's also. Most of what went on in my house this time stemmed from resource guarding. New toy, cookies or me...all resources. I only asked about this because I have seen a few listings that required only dog homes. |
| Well, as most of you know, Rags is an awful example of the breed. She is tall and lanky and has her crazy fly away ears... needless to say she would never win a dog show title, even if she had papers. The worse part of Rags is her aggression. 90% of the time her attacks are caused by food that she feels like need to protect. Example, Hayley left her plate on the kitchen (bar height) table, Rags was then guarding the table. Lacey walked by the table to get to me and was attacked by Rags as she just walked by. To put it plain and simple, Rags is a freaking nut job! She can also be very sweet... to the humans in the house. In the past few years she has developed fears of noises mainly the smoke alarm and the oven and when she gets upset, that could easily trigger an attack on Lacey or Pepsi. I feel terrible for Pepsi and Lacey. But they seem used to living with a Psycho Sister. She's part of our crazy family. But, it's like living with a ticking time bomb. Rags is pretty healthy, expect for her incontinence. YUCK! She'll be running around happily in the yard and the next thing you know she has Pepsi on his back and beating the crap out of him for no apparent reason.  Then there is Pepsi, who is such a handsome guy!!! Good example of the breed and the best temperament. So sweet! But I think over the years living with the Psycho he has picked up on some of her behavior.  Or she has made him crazy. All I know for sure is: After Rags is gone, there will be no more female Sheepies in my house.... ever!!! Males from here on out...ONLY! |
| Until you have had dog aggression in your home, you put up with 'little' things........ thinking oh........... just a small one time incident. I received Bella's mom as a 'gift' with the conditions that i finish her, and breed her and send a pup back to the breeder. Her mother would not stand other females at all but lived with one of my males until he passed last year in a wonderful home. Her mom Cassidy is still alive and doing well. Cassidy hated showing and my object was to finish her, breed her, send her breeder his puppy and put her in a good home spayed. We eventually had 2 puppies and she hated those 2 pups. It ended up with her sitting on one of them in the middle of the night so Bella became a singleton. As she was splashed the other breeder didn't want her. I told him i would not breed her again as there were repro problems with her as well. I would never have any of this bloodline again. I kept her as long as i could then Theresa had her, and then Wendy. I had Chris Boyer of Heathermist OES tell me years ago that she had a female that turned overnight on one of her other females. She went to another home, but was still being shown and she couldn't even stand to see this other bitch across the parking lot EVER over the years. There is another breeder in the Denver area (don't ask i won't tell) that has bred a couple of true RAGE syndrome dogs. Dogs that just TURN on a dime and bite and lash out at anything........... i know of one that turned on the owner as she was brushing for a show. Right at her face. We've gotten ourselves into a situation by for years no breeders being totally honest with each other, and everyone else. Our gene pool has gotten so low who knows if that is part of the problem? It's just a terribly sad situation for everyone. It's bad for the dog, its bad for the owner and it's bad for the breeder too. |
| Hi wendy, back in the late 70's and even earlier to the mid 80's there was a problem in the breed as far as temperament issues go, over the years breeders have been fixing this problem. The problem was not only one country but on a world wide basis. Most reputable breeders excluded any dog or bitch from there breeding program if showing signs of nervousness or any sort of aggression. My views more important as the pups you cant keep have to be bidable dogs of good temperament and showing no signs of nervousness as they have to be solid in all those aspects to be a life long family member in different homes to the breeder. The results of this is slowly correcting itself and not very often now you hear of an aggressive OES from registered breeders, puppy mills or BYB is a different scenario as they dont screen along with health testing is this dog I want to stud a litter or this potential mother to be of evan disposition. To me also along with the dog, the bitch is a higher priority as she is the one to nuture and raise those babies, so if momma is iffy then not only is that going to be passed to some of the offspring genetically with her raising style also enviromentally as well. Mom teaches the babies so much. Also with temperament you can also have the most endearing pup that goes to a new home and can turn not because of bad breeding but because of bad owners and the enviroment there brought up in. Interesting this is the Bristish standard, which applies to Europe and here as well, it includes temperament as being just as important as the rest of the dog. The British Breed Standard is also the accepted standard across Europe. General Appearance: Strong, square looking dog of great symmetry and overall soundness. Absolutely free of legginess, profusely coated all over. A thick-set, muscular, able-bodied dog with a most intelligent expression. The natural outline should not be artificially changed by scissoring or clipping. Characteristics: Of great stamina, exhibiting a gently rising topline, and a pear- shaped body when viewed from above. The gait has a typical roll when ambling or walking. Bark has a distinctive toned quality. Temperament: A biddable dog of even disposition. Bold, faithful and trustworthy, with no suggestion of nervousness or unprovoked aggression. Head and Skull: In proportion to the size of the body. Skull capacious, rather square. Well arched above eyes, stop well defined. Muzzle strong, square and truncated, measuring approximately half of the total head length. Nose large and black. Nostrils wide. Eyes: Set well apart. Dark or wall eyes. Two blue eyes acceptable. Light eyes undesirable. Pigmentation on the eye rim is preferred. Ears: Small and carried flat to the side of head. Mouth: Teeth strong, large and evenly placed. Scissor bite - jaws strong with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping the lower teeth and set square to the jaws. Pincer tolerated but undesirable. Neck: Fairly long, strong, arched gracefully. Forequarters: Forelegs perfectly straight, with plenty of bone, holding body well from ground. Elbows fitting close to brisket. Shoulders should be well laid back, being narrower at the point of withers than at the point of shoulder. Loaded shoulders undesirable. Dog standing lower at withers than loin. Body: Rather short, and compact, with well-sprung ribs, and deep capacious brisket. Hindquarters: Loin very sturdy, broad and gently arched, quarters well covered round and muscular, the second thigh is long and well developed, the stifle well turned, and the hocks set low. From the rear the hocks should be quite straight, with the feet turning neither in nor out. Feet: Small, round and tight, toes well arched, pads thick and hard. Dew claws should be removed. Tail: Customarily completely docked. Gait/Movement: When walking, exhibits a bear-like roll from the rear. When trotting, shows effortless extension and strong driving rear action, with legs moving straight along line of travel. Very elastic at the gallop. At slow speeds, some dogs may tend to pace. When moving, the head carriage may adopt a naturally lower position. Coat: Profuse, of good harsh texture, not straight but shaggy and free from curl. Undercoat of waterproof pile. Head and skull well covered with hair, ears moderately coated, neck well coated, forelegs well coated all round, hindquarters more heavily coated than rest of the body. Quality, texture, and profusion to be considered above mere length. Colour: Any shade of grey, grizzle or blue. Body and hindquarters of solid colour with or without white socks. White patches in the solid area to be discouraged. Head, neck, forequarters and under belly to be white with or without markings. Any shade of brown undesirable. Size: Height- 24 inches (61 cm) and upwards for dogs; 22 inches (56 cm) and upwards for bitches. Type and symmetry of greatest importance, and no account to be sacrificed to size alone. Faults: Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree. Copyright by The English Kennel Club, 1986 Now we go back to H. A. Tilley and the standard back in the earlier part of the 1900's,as per his book on OES, no mention of temperament in the general used standard world wide at that time. There must of been problems later on for that to be included later in the revised standard later in the 1900's, overall I think that this issue has been addressed, very rarely do you see now an aggressive OES. ... The Old English Sheep Dog. "...It may be asked, What are the various Components of the perfect Sheepdog? The Old English Sheepdog Club gives the following description and scale of points, which I venture to say cannot be questioned or improved upon. In order to assist some readers to take a broader view of their meaning, I will enlarge upon the descriptions given. You will note the scale of points number 100, and that no points are actually recorded for character, type quality, and expression. It is, therefore, of the greatest importance to beginners to study and re-read “Description,” because it is assumed by the old and experienced breeders and judges that all animals must have these attributes before they commence to allot the points. Skull: Capacious, and rather squarely formed, giving plenty of room for brain power. The parts over the eyes should be well arched and the whole well covered with hair. Jaw: Fairly long, strong, square and truncated; the stop should be defined to avoid a Deerhound face. (The attention of judges is particularly called to the above properties, as a long, narrow head is a deformity.) Eyes: Dark or “wall” eyes are to be preferred. Nose: Always black, large and capacious. Teeth: Strong and large, evenly placed, and level in opposition. Ears: Small and carried flat to side of head, coated moderately. Legs: The forelegs should be dead straight, with plenty of bone, removing the body a medium height from the ground, without approaching legginess; well coated all round. Feet: Small, round; toes well arched, and pads thick and round. Tail: Puppies requiring docking should have the operation performed within a week from birth, preferably within four days. Neck and Shoulders: The neck should be fairly long, arched gracefully and well coated with hair; the shoulders sloping and narrow at the points, the dog standing lower at the shoulders than at the loin. Body: Rather short and very compact, ribs well sprung, and brisket deep and capacious. The loin should be very stout and gently arched, while the hindquarters should be round and muscular, and with well let down hocks, and the hams densely coated with a thick, long jacket in excess of any other part. Coat: Profuse, and of good, hard texture; not straight, but shaggy and free from curl. The undercoat should be a waterproof pile when not removed by grooming, or the season of the year. Colour: Any shade of grey, grizzle, blue or blue merle, with or without white markings, or in reverse; any shade of brown or sable to be considered distinctly objectionable and therefore to be avoided. Height: Twenty-two inches and upwards for dogs, slightly less for bitches. Type, symmetry, and character of the greatest importance, and on no account to be sacrificed to size alone. General Appearance: A strong, compact-looking dog of great symmetry, absolutely free of legginess or weaselness, profusely coated all over, very elastic in its gallop, but in walking or trotting he has a characteristic ambling or pacing movement, and his bark should be loud, with a peculiar potcasse ring in it. Taking him all round, he is a thick-set, muscular, able-bodied dog, with a most intelligent expression, free from all Poodle or Dearhound character. I have added here the Scale of Points printed in H.A. Tilley's book. Scale of Points. Head ---------------------------------------------------- 5 Eyes ---------------------------------------------------- 5 Colour -------------------------------------------------- 10 Ears ---------------------------------------------------- 5 Body, Loins and Hindquarters ----------------------- 20 Jaw ---------------------------------------------------- 10 Nose ---------------------------------------------------- 5 Teeth --------------------------------------------------- 5 Legs ---------------------------------------------------- 10 Neck and Shoulders ---------------------------------- 10 Coat ---------------------------------------------------- 15 Sorry for the long post |
| I have a dog with true aggression issues. The breeder definitely had eyes/hips checked, but they must have forgotten to check temperament because Walter, and two of his half brothers, have some pretty serious issues. I heard they spayed his mom and stopped breeding OES. Phew. |
HeatherRWM wrote: I have a dog with true aggression issues. The breeder definitely had eyes/hips checked, but they must have forgotten to check temperament because Walter, and two of his half brothers, have some pretty serious issues. I heard they spayed his mom and stopped breeding OES. Phew. He is from a pretty infamous backyard breeder. They produced a string of bad temperaments pre-dating Walter and co. before they finally decided to call it a day. Maybe enough people finally complained. Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: HeatherRWM wrote: I have a dog with true aggression issues. The breeder definitely had eyes/hips checked, but they must have forgotten to check temperament because Walter, and two of his half brothers, have some pretty serious issues. I heard they spayed his mom and stopped breeding OES. Phew. He is from a pretty infamous backyard breeder. They produced a string of bad temperaments pre-dating Walter and co. before they finally decided to call it a day. Maybe enough people finally complained. Kristine Interesting, I didn't think anyone on here knew who they were. I definitely do not doubt that they have produced a slew of aggressive dogs though. I know there is another forum member that has two of Walter's half siblings that were given up to rescue by separate families. They seem to have similar issues, though maybe not as severe. I'm glad they got the point, though they do still breed white german shepherds. I blame myself for thinking AKC papers + hip certifications made a good breeder. It's amazing what one can learn in 8 years! |
HeatherRWM wrote: I have a dog with true aggression issues. The breeder definitely had eyes/hips checked, but they must have forgotten to check temperament because Walter, and two of his half brothers, have some pretty serious issues. I heard they spayed his mom and stopped breeding OES. Phew. How old is Walter??? I am thinking the OES I pet sat for from the kennel are younger than him Of course I could be wrong! One of those boys I helped rehome for some aggression issues...mostly they were worried about the two legged baby in the house! The fur kids were great with me...  Can't remember their names Now how is that for rescue doing research? I even ask where dogs I pet sit for come from |
| Walter is 8. I believe the forum member who has his two half brothers said those dogs were almost 2 years younger, so they did continue to breed after Walter. |
Donner's Mom wrote: Now how is that for rescue doing research? I even ask where dogs I pet sit for come from You're relentless, Kathy!  And, Heather, yes, the fact that they bothered to at least do hip x-rays would have put them a notch up in my estimation of backyard breeders as well, comparatively speaking. If their dogs didn't have a habit of ending up in rescue for temperament problems. And how would most people know that? Kristine |
| I am not a breeder nor do i know what one should do with their stock. However, I assumed that socializing the breeding pool is a good thing. I know a breeder that has her dogs inside, separated from each other and have never walked on a leash nor has met other people or dogs. There is no yard to speak of so not much exercise or socialiizing. Can this affect the pups? I think so but I am not an expert. |
| Hi, I am the forum member that has Walter's two half brothers and yes, they both have serious temperament issues. My two will be 8 years old on July 30th of this year. Their breeder had purchased a female from the above mentioned "notorious" breeder with the idea of getting into showing and breeding. He was lead down the "garden path" by that breeder. My dogs' mom was bred way too early to the same male that sired Walter. The litter was 11 puppies that all survived and ALL had major temperament problems. Five of these litter mates have put put down over biting and other aggression problems. My two dogs (Dudley and Oscar) were both returned to their breeder, because of their issues. My husband and I ended up "rescuing" both of them and while they have major problems, have never regretted doing it. My husband and I have spent a lot of time working with a behaviorist and a trainer and now are able to catch most of their trouble signals most of the time. We do not let strange people pet either of them and we are very careful when we are in public situation with them. These two were my first real introduction to the breed and unfortunately are not good ambassadors. That said, we love them dearly, they are a part of our family, give us joy every day and they are going nowhere else until they cross the bridge (hopefully a long time in the future). Their breeder has their mom, but had her spayed after the personality problems started to become apparent in the litter. I give him lots of credit for recognizing there were issues in the line and not wanting to perpetuate them. Despite their issues both Dudley and Oscar have their good sides and you can really see what a well bred, good temperament sheepdog would be like to own. Hopefully we will own one of those well bred, good temperament sheepdogs someday. Kathie P.S. Sorry for such a long post. |
oesmom2 wrote: I am not a breeder nor do i know what one should do with their stock. However, I assumed that socializing the breeding pool is a good thing. I know a breeder that has her dogs inside, separated from each other and have never walked on a leash nor has met other people or dogs. There is no yard to speak of so not much exercise or socialiizing. Can this affect the pups? I think so but I am not an expert. I thought you were going to say "I'm not a breeder, nor do i play one on TV..." Socializing any dog is a good thing. Mind you, most of us don't have "breeding stock". They are our pets first and foremost; they often sleep on our beds, steal from our counters, nap on our kitchen tables - well...you get the picture. We show them, we train them, some of us even compete with them in different venues, I know breeders who do therapy work with some of their dogs, not with breeding in mind, but because it's what they enjoy doing, so it tends not to be an issue. The good thing about "doing things" with any dog you are contemplating breeding is that it gives you a better idea of what you are breeding in terms of temperament. Genetically speaking, not socializing a dog has no effect on temperament of puppies. However, one, you may not know your dog very well, and two, as Lisa noted, the dam's temperament/behavior has the potential to adversely affect her puppies. If you have a freaky (fearful) dam raising a litter it stands to reason that she won't raise the puppies the same as would a calm, confident bitch and some of her fearfulness can be passed along that way as well as genetically (I can't quote the study off the top of my head but I seemed to recall someone looking into whether a fearful/perpertually stressed dam wouldn't adversely affect her puppies en utero as well. Not saying that is the case, but it bears considering) It really depends on the temperament. Though we should certainly socialize our dogs to the best of our ability, experience suggests to me that much of temperament is genetic, shaped, for better and worse, by environment, but hardwired to a considerable extent, which is why being picky what you breed in terms of temperament is so important. Kristine |
kajochen wrote: My husband and I have spent a lot of time working with a behaviorist and a trainer and now are able to catch most of their trouble signals most of the time. We do not let strange people pet either of them and we are very careful when we are in public situation with them. These two were my first real introduction to the breed and unfortunately are not good ambassadors. That said, we love them dearly, they are a part of our family, give us joy every day and they are going nowhere else until they cross the bridge (hopefully a long time in the future). <snip> Kathie P.S. Sorry for such a long post. Don't apologize. Been there, done that, my first OES had temperament problems and had to be watched every minute with many people and all dogs. I didn't love her any less, but looking back I am still surprised that with all her issues I still fell irrevokably in love with the breed.  There's just something about them. Even at their worst. And nicely done with your boys. I can't even contemplate dealing with more than one troubled kid at a time.  Kristine |
| Thank you so much for your post/clarification Kathie! I had it wrong, I thought they had the same mother... but it appears it was the same father. I don't know what happened to their father then, but I don't think Rolling H Farms is breeding OES anymore. I think your dedication to your boys is really amazing and inspiring. It was really comforting to me personally when you first contacted me about your boys. It's hard not to beat yourself up when you have a dog from 14 weeks of age and they turn out to be a nutjob. But I think nature, opposed to nuture, had a lot to do with this one. |
| I do think temperment has a lot to do with breeding, although I have had one male who's only problem was having children around him. He came from a house with children and I rescued him at 13 months. I seriously believe they beat him for being an OES pup around the kids. I still had him until he was 12 1/2...I just kept him out of situations that I knew he couldn't handle. I only hope that all dog breeders start considering temperment when they breed any dog. That should be first and foremost. |
| Yes a good breeder would not call her furkids "stock" nor any other similar type wording. |
The only dog I fostered for any rescue that had to be put down for aggression was an OES. I also received my ONLY dog bite (and I work with the german shepherd breed ) was from a female OES that the owner bred later. When ever I take Guinness to the U of PA or to the orthopedic group they tell me he is the nicest OES they have treated. That a lot of them that come in are "nasty" I said how many do you see and they reply enough. I love the breed and even my crazy molly is a sweetheart. I believe it is the backyard crazy breeders around here and the socialization component. People think they are cute and fuzzy and let them get away with everything. I do not think this is an aggressive breed , the standard does not state that but I have had discussions with some in rescue and a lot of dogs that are surrendered (Around here) are for behavorial issues . I love my sheepies This is just my coment  |
| Geez, this is disheartening to hear all this. It makes me nervous for when I'm ready to rescue a sheepie. I just assumed they were all sweet, dopey, lugs. Like Zeke. I guess we got REAL lucky with him. Backyard bred, brokered to a pet store, stuffed in an undersized crate in a pet store till he was almost one. And still he just loves people and is the sweetest, mildest, docile thing. |
| don't be afraid to rescue!! I do rescue and we don't place dogs that are nasty There are tons of nice nice sheepies out there Sheepiepalooza is one example all the dogs ran and got along fine I had a sheepie gettogether at my place last oct 18 sheepdogs not one problem!! But there are cranky sheepdogs out there. They are by standard goofy lovable beasts I have two and they both came from back yard crazy breeders. I am just saying the over breeding backyard kooks have not kept the dogs to standard and folks get them do not train or socialize and then (sometimes) rescue is left to clean up the mess. I have seen this in lab(and they are goofy dogs) and GSD rescue . So please don't let my statement stop you from getting a sheepie. They are the best!!!!! |
| Sorry to read of the difficulties you had to go through. Our only OES was not dog aggressive with any of our group older or younger dogs as they joined up with us. He didn't care for dogs outside of his pack and a times a bit more tense in dealing with them. We assumed it to be a breed instinct to protect what was his. I agreee as someone mentioned that there are some so-called DA that is really not true aggression. Some would think what goes on here with our 5 is DA as they play very hard and wil get a bit ramped up. But any issues at play are always resolved by the group. Occassionaly wolfie is the top dog and dispite his age will come in break things up. Mostly that the deafies(boxers) who are stubborn breed get told off by the others in a little more intense manner than a hearing dog would. |
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