Buying An Old English Sheepdog- Questions/Things To Consider
Many of you know that I have OESs that came from rescue, casual, hobby or backyard breeders and show breeders. I am not saying that dogs with wonderful temperaments and good health cannot come from rescue or a casual breeder because we all know they can. I'm just seeing people who are currently in the place I was 7 years ago when buying my first OES puppy... they don't know what questions to ask or why it's important. Please help me understand more about responsible breeding so we can help others learn too. I do NOT have all the answers... I can only share the things I've learned over the years from a buyer's perspective and from helping out rescues. Maybe some of it isn't even right so please let me know so it can be revised so it's accurate! My hope is that once the page is complete, it might be shared other places too (like rescue websites) so puppy buyers might stumble across it easier so they can make a better informed decision when purchasing their next OES. The page is currently found here- http://untilyoufindme.com/Buying-An-Old ... -Puppy.htm but outlined below. If someone would like to rewrite it eloquently or in a better way, that would be great! Too many of us are still seeking new companions from places like PuppyFind, NextDayPets, TerrificPets, etc. (Emma and Darby were on NextDayPets.) We have to start somewhere for the people who choose for whatever reason not to buy from an OESCA breeder. Things To Consider & Questions To Ask When Buying An Old English Sheepdog Puppy "Buy an OES from a responsible breeder or adopt one from a rescue or shelter." We often have an immediate desire to own an Old English Sheepdog puppy and there's probably a breeder somewhere that will sell us one. But how do we know we're buying a quality puppy? We see that adorable puppy before us and common sense often goes right out the window. Not all breeders are ethical in their breeding practices. Even with a breed club endorsement, we still need to ask questions before selecting a puppy. This list may help you to ask those questions in your search for a companion OES that you may live with for the next 10-15 years. Our hope is that you will be able to make a better informed decision.  Have all breeding dogs been tested and OFA/CERF rated? How many of us would stand on the steps of a car dealership, point to a car in the lot and say, "Oh, I love the color of that one! Does it have leather seats? It does? Okay, I'll take it!". Some of us buy Old English Sheepdog puppies this way. Yet when buying a car, most of us would want to start it up, see how it runs and have someone who knows about cars check under the hood to see if it's mechanically sound. We really should be using the same care and consideration about health when purchasing an OES puppy. Responsible breeders in the USA will not breed their dogs before they have been OFA/CERF rated. Dogs cannot be tested in order to obtain hip ratings through the Orthopedic Foundation For Animals until after the age of 2 years. It is likely a red flag if the mother and father were under 2 years of age when bred because they couldn't be tested/rated. PennHIP scores are another method of rating a dog's hips prior to breeding... visit the website to learn more about this method. Are both parents of this puppy registered with the American Kennel Club (AKC)? Request the registered names or DNA number of both parents. Dam (Mother) Name______________________________________________________ DNA Number ___________________________________________________ Sire (Father) Name________________________________________________________ DNA Number___________________________________________________ With the dam and sire information, visit the Orthopedic Foundation For Animals website- http://www.OFFA.org The OFA provides unbiased ratings on dog orthopedic and genetic health. Reputable breeders will pretest their dogs (before breeding), then submit the x-rays or test results to the OFA (or PennHIP). The OFA is a 3rd party that rates dogs hips, elbows, etc. and provides the results online for the public to view. Note however that OFA ratings are not a guarantee that a dog's puppy won't suffer from a genetic condition. Even dogs with excellent hips can produce puppies with hip dysplasia... and dogs with fair hips might produce puppies with good hips- http://www.offa.org/hd_guidelines.html This is why a breeder's experience and knowledge is equally as important as OFA test scores. Do the mother and father both have their championships? Yes No Are both the mother and father friendly toward strangers? Yes No Have any of the dogs you have or produced ever had temperament problems? Yes No What health conditions have affected the breeder's lines? Hip Dysplasia, Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA), Cerebellar Abiotrophy (CA), autoimmune disorders ranging from hypothyroid and allergies to serious blood disorders just to name a few. Health issues can pop up in the best of lines and not all health problems are genetic. (Over exercising a puppy or keeping a puppy too heavy can play a part in joint problems.) It's what a breeder does once this happens that shows a breeder's dedication to the breed's future and the puppies they produce. A responsible breeder will not repeat a breeding where there has been a genetic defect but will instead spay/neuter the dog(s) that passed along the defect so no future dogs will inherit the condition. _____________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________ What testing has been done on the parents of this puppy AND what were the ratings/results? Hip X-rays Sire _________________ Dam _____________________ Thyroid Testing Sire _________________ Dam _____________________ CERF (eye testing) Sire _________________ Dam _____________________ Elbow X-rays Sire _________________ Dam _____________________ Cardiac Sire _________________ Dam _____________________ Shoulder X-rays Sire _________________ Dam _____________________ Ask if the puppy has been BAER tested because deafness does occur in Old English Sheepdogs. Information on BAER testing- http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/baerexpl.htm Were any other tests performed? __________________________________________________ List of DNA tests- http://www.offa.org/dna_alltest.html It can be difficult to convince some buyers of the importance of OFA ratings until they've actually lived with a dog affected by a hidden genetic disorder. OFA health ratings provide us with the opinion of professionals in the field that rate health for a living. We do not have to rely on any breeder's word that their dogs are healthy... if they haven't tested their dogs, they're only guessing. OFA ratings allow us to know a little more about what's going on INSIDE the parents that may also be going on INSIDE their puppies. Think of other things we buy that come with 3rd party certification... diamonds? cars? Granted, homes cost a lot more but do we have someone inspect a house BEFORE we purchase to see if there are any hidden problems because we ourselves don't know what to check for? Pretesting and OFA rating breeding dogs are as close as we can come to fulfilling this same objective. How many litters has the mother produced and has she been given adequate time to recover from her last litter? Many responsible breeders skip one heat cycle after a litter was born so the mother can again reach optimal health. She should not be bred every time she can produce puppies. If a breeder is breeding the mother consecutively, meaning each heat cycle, be sure to ask more questions. A red flag may be if the mother has already produced one litter of puppies in the past year. It could indicate the breeder is focusing too much on the money to be made rather than producing quality puppies and properly caring for their breeding dogs. Remember that a healthy mother has the best chance at producing healthy puppies.How old is the mother? _____________________ How many litters has the mother produced or whelped?______________________ How old is the father?_________________ Terms and Things to Consider... The Breeder: People often buy from people they like. A breeder may be the nicest person you've ever met but they may be doing irresponsible things as a breeder. Some have not been educated about responsible breeding practices and others are simply focusing on the money to be made from buyers who don't know any better. You want the breeder of your puppy to be approachable but you also want them to be caring, knowledgeable and responsible. Remember that breeders are selling a product and some simply want your money. A few things to look for in a good OES breeder... * Pre-tests their dogs before breeding them, only using healthy dogs AND uses a 3rd party rating like the Orthopedic Foundation For Animals to verify test results. Does not rely solely on the their personal vet to substantiate the test results because of a possible or perceived conflict of interest. * Carefully researches the lines of their breeding dogs to ensure the best possible health. * Only uses breeding dogs with good temperaments- aggressive dogs or dogs with unstable temperaments should not be the foundation for future OES puppies. You do not want the puppy you purchase to have behavior problems that make him/her difficult or dangerous to live with. Remember however that proper and consistent training also plays a big roll in the behavior of the dog. * Provides all the age appropriate vaccinations and wormings required to ensure you will receive a healthy puppy. * Has a contract that requires an owner to return the OES they purchased to them if they can no longer keep or maintain it for any reason during the lifetime of the dog. Also outlines what will happen if a puppy purchased is proven to sick or have a genetic defect. * Teaches or provides buyers with educational resources on how to properly groom and care for every OES they sell. * Follows up periodically with the buyer to be certain the dog they sold is safe and still wanted. AKC Registered: This means that the American Kennel Club accepted fees and paperwork for that puppy and that puppy is supposed to be an Old English Sheepdog. It says nothing about the health or temperament of the puppy nor the living conditions or breeding practices of the breeder. AKC registration does not mean you have purchased a quality Old English Sheepdog. AKC registered puppies can come from anyone... show breeders, hobby breeders, backyard breeders, commercial FDA breeders or puppymill situations. UKC Registed: The United Kennel Club registry focuses on performance such as obedience, conformation, agility, dock jumping, weight pull, etc. Birth Date: Your puppy should be at least 8 weeks of age. Some state laws require it. An OES puppy leaving it's mother and littermates any sooner may not learn bite inhibition and proper dog behavior that only dogs can teach. Remember, you are looking for an OES that has the best potential in becoming a good companion for the next 10-15 years. So while you may be tempted, PLEASE do NOT accept an OES puppy less than 8 weeks of age. A breeder allowing puppies to go before this age may simply be tired of cleaning up after all the little ones, choosing to no longer put money into feeding and caring for them or leaving on vacation. Orphaned puppies will still benefit from the supervised interaction with littermates. If your puppy is an orphan or a "singleton" (only 1 puppy in the litter), speak with a trainer or vet about possibly fostering a HEALTHY puppy close to the same age from your local shelter or rescue that appears to have a good temperament. At what age can I pick up the puppy? _________ Parents On The Premises: This may simply mean it was a breeding of convenience and not carefully researched and planned. It could mean the breeder isn't very selective in their breeding practices. Look further into why the two adults were bred and the family relationship between the two. Champion Bloodlines: Keep in mind that this phrase can be used as a marketing tool. Many OESs have champions in their bloodlines... it depends on how far back those champions are. It's more impressive if the mother and father are champions. Example: Champion Sired. Show Potential: A breeder that shows their dogs has a better chance of declaring a puppy has "show potential". If the breeder doesn't show their dogs in conformation (meaning dog shows), how do they know for a fact that the puppy has show potential? Ask how they they reached the opinion that their puppies are truly show worthy. White Caps, Blue Eyes: This may indicate the breeder is focusing too much on producing white headed dogs with blue eyes and less on health and temperament. Some breeders may actually market puppies as rare if they have these characteristics or may charge a higher fee. If considering a puppy with "blue-eyed, snowcap" characteristics, ask whether the puppies have been BAER hearing tested. This will ensure you haven't just spent hundreds of dollars on a deaf Old English Sheepdog. Male Puppies: When buying a male puppy, one of the first questions should be is whether the puppy's testicles have descended into the scrotum. If neither or only one testicle has dropped by 8 weeks of age, the puppy may be cryptorchid. A knowledgeable and experienced breeder will know to check their male puppies for this genetic trait. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 09&aid=897 An undescended or retained testicle is said to cause a higher risk of testicular cancer and should be removed at the age your vet feels is appropriate. Surgery is usually more expensive because the veterinarian often needs to search for the missing testicle which can result in often more invasive abdominal surgery. The retained testicle(s) MUST be removed not only because of the future cancer risk but also because of possible behavioral problems that can indeed occur if the dog is left intact. Before committing to a cryptorchid puppy, ask your vet the fee for neutering both a normal and cryptochid dog so you understand the difference in surgery fees. These dogs will make great companions if properly neutered but cryptorchid dogs cannot be shown in conformation and should not be bred because it's considered a genetic condition that can be passed on to his sons and carried by his daughters. Have both testicles of all male puppies in this litter dropped? Yes No Bloodlines Are OFA Certified: This appears to be a newer term in marketing puppies. It only means that somewhere in the puppy's lineage, an Old English Sheepdog had been OFA rated for health. It does not indicate how far back a relative dog was tested nor what the results of those tests were. You want your puppy's parents, grandparents, etc. to have been OFA rated and the test results to have been acceptable. Price: What makes a puppy worth the asking price? More than $500 and you'll probably want to start asking what is it that makes this puppy worth the money. Some breeders ask $800 or more but haven't even tested both parents for hips and eyes (CERF- http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html ). Some breeders base pricing on whatever the market will bear... supply and demand. Others simply copy what other breeders are charging without matching all the education, study, care, testing, showing that goes into justifiably higher prices. And some breeders might be setting pricing based on the cost of their next vehicle, vacation or child's education. A responsible breeder's puppy prices are often based on their knowledge, expertise and proof of quality (champion conformation or proven performance breeding dogs). They may have or have had a mentor guiding them about responsible breeding practices. Careful planning, research and selection of the mother and father is essential. Add to that, health testing, the cost of showing or competing with their dogs (travel, motel, entry fees, etc.). A responsible breeder will also have a well thought out contract that states this puppy will never become a burden on shelters, rescues or society in general... that they have the first option to buy the dog back, must approve any new home or that the dog must simply be returned to them if the buyer can no longer keep the dog for any reason. And the responsible breeder will be there for the lifetime of that dog. Note however that just because a breeder shows their dogs should NOT be considered an automatic stamp of approval. Ask all the questions you feel are important when buying your next OES. Vet Bred/Vet Raised: If a vet is breeding and raising puppies, they know the importance of pretesting and third party verification of the health of their breeding dogs. Ask for the OFA ratings on hips, CERF and thyroid at the very least... do not settle for a breeder's or breeder's vet's opinion on test results because they may not be impartial or educated enough to be giving those opinions. Beware The Rave Reviews Of Recent Buyers: Most people who have recently purchased an Old English Sheepdog puppy are still flying high on the euphoric experience of bringing one of these amazing dogs into their lives. This usually applies to any OES puppy no matter the source. Reviews about a person's 2-5 years old dog will give you a better view of the breeder's after sale support and the health and temperament of the dogs they produce. See if the 2-5 year old OES is still everything the buyer had hoped for. This will give you a better view of the buyer's experience. If reviews are posted online, ask whether these are all the reviews that have been posted. Some online advertising mediums allow breeders to remove less favorable reviews making the breeder look much more impressive. Multiple Breeds Offered: Ask what other breeds of dogs they produce as this may help you to determine the breeder's dedication to Old English Sheepdogs. A red flag might be that they offer multiple breeds or mix-breed dogs offered as designer breeds... an example may be a Sheepie-Doodle. Note however that, except for the mix-breed "designer" dogs, this may very well be negated if the breeder shows all of the purebred breeds offered in conformation or competes in agility, herding, etc. and has health testing done on all dogs bred.Do you breed any other breeds of dogs? Yes No Do you breed designer dogs? Yes No That Guarantee: READ that contract before you put a deposit on a puppy or get emotionally wrapped up in a particular litter or pup. It's unfair for a breeder to wait until delivering a puppy for you to finally get a look at the contract. It's also unfair for you to invest several months waiting for puppy only to find a few days before receiving him/her that the contact is less than acceptable. Some puppies are in fact sold on a contract that specifically states the puppy is NOT guaranteed to be free of genetic defects. Look elsewhere if this is the case and you're about to pay a lot of money. Don't set yourself up for disappointment... it's better to pass on a breeder early on.Then too, some guarantees state they cover life-threatening conditions. But a non-life threatening condition could be as serious as hip dysplasia, PRA (blindness), deafness, etc. While these conditions won't kill the dog, they may end your dreams of having a normal companion, limit your activities together and in the long run cost you more money for medical care... not to mention the possible suffering of your companion Old English Sheepdog. Here are some important considerations about a purchase agreement and contract. Remember to get important things in writing... * Will the puppy I purchase come with a health guarantee and exactly what does it cover? * To what age is this health guarantee good and how long after arrival do I have to get a wellness check by a licensed veterinarian? * If the puppy has a non-life threatening condition like Hip Dysplasia, PRA, deafness, etc. exactly what will the breeder offer to do, if anything? * Will I be required to return the unhealthy puppy to the breeder or will the breeder offer a partial refund and allow me to keep the puppy I've already bonded with? What percentage of the purchase price will be refunded? * If the puppy has a non-life threatening defect like Hip Displasia and the breeder's contract requires me to return the puppy for one from their next litter, will the next pup come from two different parents or the same parents that produced this defective puppy OR will I be offered a full refund? * If your puppy came to you from a distance or arrived on an airline, you will likely be responsible for getting the puppy back to the breeder AND getting a new puppy to you. Who pays these transportation fees if the puppy is deemed unhealthy? Just a few things to consider before buying your puppy. The Deposit: Only put down a deposit if you are certain you want a puppy from this particular breeder. Get it in writing that the deposit will be refunded if their female fails to produce any live puppies or simply doesn't have a puppy for you. If they have only one female, you may be committed to waiting a very long time if she's failed to produce a litter. There are some breeders that will not accept a deposit... they want to get to know you before committing a puppy to your care. Not a bad thing because they're putting the welfare of the puppy before the money and the buyer's feelings. Though it can be nerve wracking for the buyer. Still, ask to review the purchase agreement early on to see if it's worth awaiting their approval.Do you require a deposit? Yes No How much is the deposit? $___________ Will you refund my deposit if you cannot provide me with a puppy from this litter? Yes No If You Are Ever Unable To Keep This Puppy or The Adult Dog: A responsible breeder makes it part of their written contract that if for any reason the buyer can no longer keep this dog that it is to be returned to them OR that they are to actively assist in rehoming and approving a new home for the dog. A responsible breeder will never allow one of their dogs to be a burden to shelters, rescues or society. They want to be certain the dog they sold will spend it's life in a qualified home where it will be properly cared for. If this is not part of the contract, it might be prudent to ask why. AKC Registration: There are two types of AKC registration...Limited Registration: With limited registration, the buyer is not given rights to register any puppies that this particular puppy may produce in the future. Dogs with limited registration cannot be shown in conformation but can participate in other events like obedience, agility and herding. Breeders will make it part of the purchase agreement that a puppy purchased from them must be spayed/neutered by a specific age. By what age must this puppy be spayed/neutered? ___________________________ Full Registration: Full registration gives the buyer the right to register puppies this particular puppy may produce in the future as long as both parents are registered Old English Sheepdogs. Some breeders will advertise full registration as a buying incentive. This is almost always careless and not in the best interest of these puppies, future puppies nor the breed in general. Future breeding rights should only be extended when a puppy is co-owned by the breeder and the breeder is mentoring and closely monitoring the owner on responsible breeding practices. Note: If your puppy does not come with "papers", meaning it wasn't registration through the American Kennel Club, it might mean... * One or both parents were never AKC registered. * One or both parents had been sold on a limited registration contract so the breeder doesn't have permission from the seller to be breeding them. * Both parents may not have been Old English Sheepdogs. * The breeder simply didn't register the litter for whatever reason. After Sale Support From The Breeder: Show breeder or hobby breeder, ask what type of support you'll receive from the breeder after you purchase one of their puppies. A dedicated breeder will take time to share information on how to properly care for and groom the Old English Sheepdog you are purchasing from them. They want to ensure their puppy will be well cared for. A few select breeders will even demonstrate how to properly groom the dog. But many times, these transactions take place from hundreds of miles away so distance plays a factor in how the breeder educates the buyer. Some breeders do not provide adequate after sale support or instructions on how to properly groom and care for the Old English Sheepdog. If this is your first OES and your breeder has failed to provide the support and information you need, a great place to visit for guidance and information about Old English Sheepdogs is the OES.org forum- http://www.forum.oes.org Illness & Accident Insurance Policies: Problems can appear even in the best of lines and in dogs from the most selective of breeders. No matter who you purchase your next Old English Sheepdog from, consider purchasing health insurance coverage for at least the first 1-2 years. There are even a few policies that now cover genetic conditions like hip dysplasia (some require an exam). Whether insurance is a good investment is something you will need to decide for yourself. These questions may help you determine this... * Will I be able to afford the level of care I would deem needed if a major health problem occurs? * What if this dog requires continued care or multiple surgeries? * What will happen if I instead chose to put money aside for medical care but the funds are needed early on or I just haven't saved enough? * Can I afford to pay if more than one serious illness or accident occurs? * Will my vet allow me to make payments if my dog needs care and I can't afford to pay? A savings plan may be depleted quickly with just one health condition but is still a good option. If you choose to carry health insurance on your dog, select a policy very carefully because all policies are not created equal. Remember to take out coverage BEFORE you dog ever gets sick or injured or you could be excluded from ever obtaining insurance on this particular dog. This is not a complete list of things to consider when purchasing your next Old English Sheepdog puppy but it will hopefully get you started on the right foot. Best wishes to you on finding your next OES companion! |
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  Nice work Jaclin!!!!!!! |
 This is a excellent, clearly written set of guidelines and questions for puppy-seekers. I hope this thread pops up at the top of people's google searches as the search the web for breeders and info. |
| Oooh.. I'm gonna have to send this to my friends who ask about the breed!!! I can never remember all the great things I hear on here! |
| That is great! Thanks for posting it! |
| Excellent Advice, you did say that if we see something important missing to please feel free to speak up. This in information that every breeder knows. Sometimes the desire to get snowcaps with blue eyes is too much to resist. Department of Animal Science Colorado State University Fort Collins, Colorado 80523 This information applies to breeding any/all animals with 4 white feet, OES fall into this area. Quote: Blue eyes can also signal neurological defects. It is well known that white cats with blue eyes are deaf. But, white cats with dark eyes, or small areas of pigmented hair, are less likely to be deaf. Although blue eyes in themselves may not always signal neurological defects, breeding two blue-eyed dogs together results in pups that have eye, ear. and brain abnormalities. Blue eyes are a warning sign because they are associated with a reduced pigmentation throughout the body. This is so very true in Dogs, Horses, pigs, and white cats to name a few. So buyers should know the color of the eyes for mom and dad....because mom could test perfect and dad test perfect but the combo, if both have blue eyes could lead to hearing and eye problems that testing can not prevent. |
| This information comes from: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals 40 years of dedication to the advancement of Canine health Quote: What can breeders do? Hip dysplasia appears to be perpetuated by breeder imposed breeding practices, but when breeders and their breed clubs recognize HD as a problem and establish reduction of HD as a priority, improvement of the hip status can be accomplished without jeopardizing other desirable traits. Prospective buyers should check pedigrees and/or verify health issues with the breeder. If suitable documentation is not available, assume the worst until proven otherwise. Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect. OFA's Recommended Breeding Principals •Breed normals to normals •Breed normals with normal ancestry •Breed normals from litters (brothers/sisters) with a low incidence of HD •Select a sire that produces a low incidence of HD •Replace dogs with dogs that are better than the breed average This is saying that a dog with fair hips and family history has no hip problems is good for breeding.......However a dog with Excellent hips but family has had hip problems should not be breed.... so for you the buyer... if the breeder can show you .... Parents, Grandparents, Great Grandparents, if they can show you adult dogs from the parents that is great information. If you can see two or three generations back and there has been no hip problems, your chances of a pup with good hips is good. If you can not see Mom or Dad, even if both are not at the same location, take time to visit them, look at and inspect the family tree If for some strange reason one can not be see ..... Run..... Remember you are at the mercy of the breeder, if the breeder has the mother and father DNA ed you can verify you pup is from the mother and father the breeder said it is for around $50.00 .... If someone invest thousands of dollars in a dog, shows them, and is ready to breed and there is a reproduction problem....etc. well make sure the mom and dad are who the breeder say they are. So ask if Mom and Dad have been DNA ed.... if not ... WHY? if so make sure your contract has a clause that the pup is really from the stated Mother and Father. |
| Oh Sorry I was going a little too fast and did not realize I had not signed in...still a little new at this site.... just wanted to let you know the two above post are not from a guest....they are from a member. Me Sheepdog Lover |
Quote: you did say that if we see something important missing to please feel free to speak up. Absolutely and thank you for sharing this. I only knew that purposely breeding for blue eyes/white head traits could result in some puppies being born deaf. Having a reference like this allows people to do further reading. I found a link to the article you mentioned - http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html I wanted to see who Dr. Temple Grandin was... what an amazing woman and understanding of animals. http://media.uoregon.edu/channel/2010/0 ... %E2%80%9D/ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 07514.html |
This is wonderful!  |
| Bravo! Great information, lots to consider when getting a puppy. thanks for taking the time to create such a wonderful resource! peg |
| A great article that clearly gives direction and specifics! WELL DONE! Thanks! |
| Excellent!!! Well worth the wait! |
| I want to thank everyone who has shared their opinions and also additional things to consider when buying a puppy. I'm still struggling a bit with the layout... thinking that it should be broken up a bit so it doesn't seem so overwhelming or daunting. I'll post the updated version here once it's complete. It can always be updated to include more things. Thanks again! |
Jaci yes keep it a bit more simpler, I agree with everything you wrote but for the "Lay person" looking to get there first OES, too much to peruse. Keep the objective of "How Too", the right way to seek a OES pupper and the "Right way to go about" simple, JMO.  |
| [ Sheepdog Lover wrote: If someone invest thousands of dollars in a dog, shows them, and is ready to breed and there is a reproduction problem....etc. well make sure the mom and dad are who the breeder say they are. So ask if Mom and Dad have been DNA ed.... if not ... WHY? if so make sure your contract has a clause that the pup is really from the stated Mother and Father. Actually. most breeders who breed very little are not required to get a DNA ID number on their dogs. I guess the AKC trusts we have a clue what we're doing and can tell the dogs apart If there was every a question of paternity (usually) DNA can certainly be done at that time. For me seeing a DNA number on a dog used to be a red flag - it could simply mean that he (usually he) had been used a lot and as I recall it originated with the AKC's inspections of truly large volume breeders, typically the ones who would require USDA licensing. However, these days it is, as I recall, also required if the dog is an import, if the breeding was done by AI and in cases (I'm refering to the intentional ones) where multiple sires were used. It also doesn't require the dog be bred very often before the requirement kicks in, so we do see more dogs with DNA numbers listed than we used to. There may be other cases as well. But it is not universally done at this time and not for nefarious reasons. If you have such a bad feeling about a breeder that you don't trust the parentage, that should be head's up enough to simply go elsewhere  Jaci - it follows that you probably meant to say ask for sire and dam's registered names and numbers, not reg names and DNA numbers. You can use reg name or number to look a dog up on the OFA site, but not the DNA number the AKC uses for (potential) ID purposes. That's only listed on the AKC site and is kind of meaningless to 99.99% of us. OFA does list a DNA data bank number on many OES - that just means they have donated DNA to be banked for possible future health research - a very worthy undertaking, but not critical information for a potential puppy buyer. Especially since any OES can donate - a number of rescue dogs have done so - it has nothing directly to do with breeding, except the hope that some day we have more screening tests available for more genetic conditions and so on. Also, I can't think of a single (OES) breed club that requires or even recommends that shoulders be x-rayed (I'm guessing you're thinking to screen for shoulder OCD? It's so rare in this breed at this time that it's not even on the radar. Elbows are a different story. You might want consider linking to the CHIC OES page - it lists the health testing that is required/recommended for a CHIC number as determined by the parent breed club in this country, i.e. OESCA - it's a nice little summary and gets updated as recommendations change: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD You probably do need to condense/simplify so as to not overwhelm first time puppy buyers, but nice work! kristine |
lisaoes wrote: Jaci yes keep it a bit more simpler, I agree with everything you wrote but for the "Lay person" looking to get there first OES, too much to peruse. Lordy, I know I'm too long winded.  If people see it as overwhelming, they aren't going to read it. I'll go over the whole thing and see what I can shorten up or move to an "additional information or further reading" page. Thanks, Lisa!Mad Dog wrote: Jaci - it follows that you probably meant to say ask for sire and dam's registered names and numbers, not reg names and DNA numbers... Also, I can't think of a single (OES) breed club that requires or even recommends that shoulders be x-rayed... You might want consider linking to the CHIC OES page - it lists the health testing that is required/recommended for a CHIC number as determined by the parent breed club in this country, i.e. OESCA - it's a nice little summary and gets updated as recommendations change: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD Thank you for providing the right terms and the link, Kristine. I really appreciate your input. I'll make the change and remove the shoulder screening information. I will also include the link you mentioned above. That was exactly what I had hoped to find but I didn't know it was out there. It's best to also shorten the whole thing up by providing links to reliable/accurate sources. |
| I don't think anyone uses a DNA profile to keep up with their dogs, as far as when it is required the information is below. American Kennel Club "•As part of the AKC's Frequently Used Sire program (FUS), DNA tests are mandatory for dogs that sire seven or more litters in a lifetime or more than three litters in a calendar year. On average, 45 percent of all AKC litters registered each year come from an FUS dog. The AKC has over 500,000 DNA profiles in its DNA database. DNA testing should be considered positive for everyone involved. I dont know anything about what triggers an AKC inspection, I looked for that information but everything I found said it is random selection. American Kennel Club DNA Profile Program The AKC DNA Profile Program brings cutting-edge parentage testing technology to AKC customers. A cheek swab brush is used to collect the DNA sample from the dog, and returned to the AKC. The sample is processed by AKC's DNA service provider, MMI Genomics, and the resulting genotype is entered into the AKC DNA Database. The information is used to verify parentage of AKC dogs and for genetic identity purposes. This technology allows breeders, dog owners, and the AKC to ensure that the AKC Registry is the most accurate in the world. The dog owner will receive an AKC letter of DNA Analysis including the DNA profile for each dog sampled. Additionally, for dogs individually registered at the time the DNA sample is received by the AKC, the DNA Profile Number will be added to that dog's registration record, and will appear on all Registration Certificates and Pedigrees issued in the future. The DNA testing for breeders that really want to assure accuracy is done on a volunteer basis. Really nothing to do with trusting anyone, or inspections, its today's technology that assures accuracy. Not really sure why anyone would want to put a negative spin on it? |
| What is terrible is the person in Mexio that is breeding for totally white OES>? I never did find out who that person was. There was at a time in the 70[s somone in lower El Paso Texas balley breeding some GORGEOUS OES with white heads and the morst GORGEOUS BLUE EYES, BOTH OF THEM I had managed to purchase a beautiful male, whom was immediately stollen off of a fenced in patio. I don't believe a 4 white feet and full head make for deafness...................... I've seen far too many that are not. |
Ali wrote: I don't believe a 4 white feet and full head make for deafness...................... I've seen far too many that are not. Ali, that's very true. What they are (or should be, at least) really talking about in our breed is amount of white factor. The more white factor, the higher the relative risk of the dog being deaf. But there have been all white (essentially) OES who had bilateral hearing, and dark ones who were deaf. But all else being equal, the more white factor, the higher the risk the dog is deaf. Kristine |
| American Kennel Club "•As part of the AKC's Frequently Used Sire program (FUS), DNA tests are mandatory for dogs that sire seven or more litters in a lifetime or more than three litters in a calendar year. On average, 45 percent of all AKC litters registered each year come from an FUS dog. The AKC has over 500,000 DNA profiles in its DNA database. DNA testing should be considered positive for everyone involved. I dont know anything about what triggers an AKC inspection, I looked for that information but everything I found said it is random selection. The DNA testing for breeders that really want to assure accuracy is done on a volunteer basis. Really nothing to do with trusting anyone, or inspections, its today's technology that assures accuracy. Not really sure why anyone would want to put a negative spin on it?[/quote] Actually, as you quote yourself above, it is mandatory for dogs who are frequently used. This came about (historically) once the technology was in place because prior to that the AKC often had suspicions about high volume breeders, especially, not being, eh, honest about their breedings but couldn't usually prove a darn thing and so it was less about protecting breeders - if you're even minimally competent you KNOW who you bred your bitch to, it's not like we're swimming in dogs or generally have "stud dogs" floating around who can get us into mischief ; or pet owners, for that matter, for whom it generally doesn't really matter all that much if Buffy or Muffin sired their puppy, as long as their dog is healthy and doesn't bite anyone that's all most care about - but about protecting the accuracy of the registry which is, afterall, the very reason the AKC exists - it is a breed registry first and foremost. Wisconsin rescue had one owner surrendered girl we ran a DNA breed identification test on (nothing to do with AKC dna testing) She came with AKC papers but we were convinced she had to be half poodle. Adorable, but coat and other things were all wrong. If the DNA test had been indicative of that we would have quietly tipped the AKC off and suggested they may want to be checking her breeder's records and do some DNA testing for parentage - the breeder was high volume and also supplied poodles for the pet market, so...? We ended up not pursuing it but that's exactly the type of situation DNA testing for parentage is made for. Today it's not really a negative, no. But nor is it in and of itself considered a sign of a 'good breeder', though I have seen some high volume backyard breeders advertise it as such to put a good spin on it I guess. It's just sort of neutral at this point. Kristine |
| So the value of this type of DNA testing is to... Verifying the specific dam/sire that have parented a puppy. Verifying the fact that an OES is truly an OES and not mixed with another breed. Have it got it right? Back in March of last year, two free purebred Old English Sheepdogs were being advertised on Kijiji, an eBay classifieds type search. Quote: We have two very beautiful dogs that we would like to place in a very good home. We need them to go to a home that has a very large fenced yard, acreage or a farm. These dogs are very special and we paid $650 a piece for them. They are actually AKC registered Old English Sheepdogs. Unfortunately their facial hair never developed and they are what is known as a smooth coated OES. They are both beautiful. They are black and white (Grizzle) which is not so common with white heads and China Blue eyes! They are brother and sister and I think they were twins, their markings are almost identical just on opposite sides. They turned out looking more like border collies or shepherds of some sort, however we have their other brother who looks like a perfectly normal OES... They would not come with their paperwork since we are giving them away for free... There was more after the "..." So based on what the advertiser shared, at least 3 dogs coming from this one litter had been registered as Old English Sheepdogs with the AKC. I wrote to the advertiser about multiple sires fathering one litter and that I didn't think there was such a thing as a smooth coated OES.  Also that if they paid $650 each for these AKC registered purebred OESs, they should contact the AKC if they had the paperwork. I never heard back but they did make some changes the ad.These dogs were being rehomed for free and it seemed from the words shared that they did care about the dogs, wanted to find them good homes. From the pictures shared, they were clean and looked to be in good shape. So either someone was hoodwinked when they purchased these dogs or would have really misinformed a new family this time around. It's not the first time AKC registered OESs looking like Border Collies have shown up in ads/rescues. So I if there are more subtle differences, DNA testing can verify that an OES only carries OES DNA and not Poodle, BC, etc.... correct? And about the pigment and deafness... I think I'll just share on that page that deafness affects OESs and keep the part about breeders producing/marketing white heads or snow caps and blue eyes. It seems it would simply be best to say that all puppy buyers should be asking whether puppies in a litter can hear and how it was verified. |
6Girls wrote: lisaoes wrote: If people see it as overwhelming, they aren't going to read it. I'll go over the whole thing and see what I can shorten up or move to an "additional information or further reading" page. . That's very true they wont read pages of indepth information even though it is fantastic all that is written, keeping to a point by point HOW TOO then maybe following up with an info page you can click on to take you there for additional information on each point that a person wants to know more on is probably the way to go. Having it way too much to read most people cant be bothered or it can scare them off completely with over information. Again just my personal thoughts, main criteria is getting the facts or info accross and short and sweet as possible then if someone is looking at that they can click on certain sections of a simple point by point list to take them to further reading. Say for eg. just a simple Lets' say "Buying an OES puppy the "health tests" that should be done on the sire and dam of the puppy you are interested in purchasing" (link to take you to more detailed info on Health tests required for OES - Click here) a link to take you to more indepth info page on that particular section. That way you are keeping it short for the introduction page, giving people the basic info without overwhelming them with way too much to read in one go. You can on each section list in brief each point when seeking an OES then if required on each individual point a link taking that point to more indepth info. I can honestly say I love what you are doing but remember way too much in the first read and people just dont read it all as they will find it overwhelming. Have the option to take them to more indepth info pages on each point you are trying to get across at there leisure Again JMO and having dealt with people seeking OES for the first time you want to get across firstly, the right way and the basics firstly as a most important to impact them first, and go on from there with more detailed info on each section as appropriate for them to read & research further.  |
6Girls wrote: So the value of this type of DNA testing is to... Verifying the specific dam/sire that have parented a puppy. Verifying the fact that an OES is truly an OES and not mixed with another breed. Have it got it right? Essentially, yes. Though keep in mind these are two different uses of DNA. The DNA testing the AKC uses is strictly for paternity, not breed, and the science is pretty solid there, just like in people Whereas the science on the breed tests is a little shakier. So much so that my vet was not in favor of them, considering them at best educated genetic guesses and a waste of $$$. She must have changed her mind because she was the one who wanted the breed ID test run on the rescue girl I mentioned (she's an OES breeder herself and part of WI rescue) It came back nothing but OES, leaving us both looking at the dog and scratching our heads.  "Really?"  Perhaps the test was accurate. It's quite conceivable that if you select for nothing in particular generation after generation you can stay within the gene pool and still end up with dogs so far from the breed standard as to barely be recognizable, so who knows? Sweet little girl and cute no matter what. We would have been pleased to bring her breeder some grief from some authority, nonetheless, as she was for a while our main "supplier" of rescue dogs it seemed, and as you well know that gets to be darn annoying. But, genetically speaking, we had nothing to go on but our suspicions in her case. I suppose we could have nonetheless suggested to the AKC that they run parentage DNA testing on some of her dogs and they may have come up with some infractions that way, but we didn't feel we had anything solid enough to go on to go to that step. Back in March of last year, two free purebred Old English Sheepdogs were being advertised on Kijiji, an eBay classifieds type search. Quote: We have two very beautiful dogs that we would like to place in a very good home. We need them to go to a home that has a very large fenced yard, acreage or a farm. These dogs are very special and we paid $650 a piece for them. They are actually AKC registered Old English Sheepdogs. Unfortunately their facial hair never developed and they are what is known as a smooth coated OES. They are both beautiful. They are black and white (Grizzle) which is not so common with white heads and China Blue eyes! They are brother and sister and I think they were twins, their markings are almost identical just on opposite sides. They turned out looking more like border collies or shepherds of some sort, however we have their other brother who looks like a perfectly normal OES... They would not come with their paperwork since we are giving them away for free... There was more after the "..." So based on what the advertiser shared, at least 3 dogs coming from this one litter had been registered as Old English Sheepdogs with the AKC. I wrote to the advertiser about multiple sires fathering one litter and that I didn't think there was such a thing as a smooth coated OES. Also that if they paid $650 each for these AKC registered purebred OESs, they should contact the AKC if they had the paperwork. I never heard back but they did make some changes the ad.I remember the smooth coated OES claim  People will apparently believe anything. I'd be surprised if they actually had anything resembling registration papers on the dogs. I've heard that story before and when push comes to shove it becomes "Well, the breeder told us both parents were registered" (always a possibility, but then the next question is; registered as the same breed, or...?  ) it could have been a multiple sire litter, though it's equally possible mom was an OES, dad a border collie or something like that, and some of the get strongly resembled mom and some strongly dad and some were in between.A number of years ago I used to frequent a dog park where the was an OES/English setter mix that could have been ILP'd as an OES. A remarkably um un-typey OES, I grant you, but no worse than my rescue dog who purportedly is purebred. They told me they had the dog's brother as well until he died young and that he looked like a setter. The owner of the oops litter was quite honest with the people who took the resulting puppies and the pups must have been different enough at birth to suggest who was going to look like what because the OES looking mix was docked and the setter looking mix apparently was not. Genes are darn funny things. These dogs were being rehomed for free and it seemed from the words shared that they did care about the dogs, wanted to find them good homes. From the pictures shared, they were clean and looked to be in good shape. So either someone was hoodwinked when they purchased these dogs or would have really misinformed a new family this time around. It's not the first time AKC registered OESs looking like Border Collies have shown up in ads/rescues. So I if there are more subtle differences, DNA testing can verify that an OES only carries OES DNA and not Poodle, BC, etc.... correct? Well, maybe is such an unsatisfying answer, but as you may have guessed from what i've written above, I'm not quite sure we're there yet. What the AKC looks at is 'did Dog A who is listed on the registration papers actually sire this puppy?" If yes, no problem. If no, all they know is that Dog A is not the dad. They can't tell you who or even what sired the puppy in that case. And, if no, breeder probably loses AKC registration privledges for some time, if not indefinitely, depending on the degree of the infraction. Plus a nice, hefty fine. When the AKC stepped up their inspections as well as started requiring dogs that sired large numbers of litters have to have their DNA on file with them a number of breeders apparently decided to register their dogs with some less cranky organization Now, there is at least one situation where the breeder herself would want to run DNA testing for paternity; multiple sired litters - intentional ones predominantly. These have predominantly taken place when you're breeding an older bitch and probably will only get one litter out of her and you're using frozen semen. The odds of getting any puppies are fairly low so you may also breed to a younger, available shall we say dog to try to heighten the odds of getting any puppies. It's not common and I have a feeling it may have fallen out of favor simply because it appears that when you go this route - and it's incredibly expensive to do so - the younger, more viable semen tends to win out. In order to register the resulting puppies you MUST DNA test the entire litter. Each case I've heard of, three total that I can think of in our breed, the resulting puppies have all turned out to be from the one male only. IF that is indeed the case it would be a pretty fruitless approach. But it is acceptable according to the AKC and only possible because we have DNA testing to establish canine paternity. Speaking of needing to condense... Sorry about the long digression.And about the pigment and deafness... I think I'll just share on that page that deafness affects OESs and keep the part about breeders producing/marketing white heads or snow caps and blue eyes. It seems it would simply be best to say that all puppy buyers should be asking whether puppies in a litter can hear and how it was verified. Very wise. And I absolutely concur with Lisa's approach, providing links for more indepth information (your own explanations or links to established authorities like OFA as applicable). Go that route and it could become an incredibly useful resource. Kristine |
| Just a little confused here about DNA. From what I am reading, people seeking advice for a puppy are sent to OESCA, for many wonderful reasons...I read in the post above DNA is for puppy mills and/or high volume sales, but one of the code of ethics for OESCA reads: Quote: 5.All registrations, application forms, pedigrees, and certifications must be accurate and valid. Registration papers may not be sold independently of the dog. It is recommended that all dogs sold or being used for breeding, and their offspring, be permanently identified by microchip, DNA, or tattoo. Puppies may not be sold from any temporary marketplace or transient headquarters, no litters purchased or taken on consignment for resale, nor dogs wholesaled to pet shops, auctions, dealers, contest sponsors, raffles, etc. All advertising shall be factual, honest and forthright in nature and not in any way misleading. Also on another thread about getting a puppy, someone wrote that a website is a sign of a bad breeder, yet about half of the people on the OESCA have websites that actually list the pups that are available for sale. I am not really sure what the message is that is being sent to the buyer, maybe someone can help. |
Sheepdog Lover wrote: Just a little confused here about DNA. From what I am reading, people seeking advice for a puppy are sent to OESCA, for many wonderful reasons...I read in the post above DNA is for puppy mills and/or high volume sales, but one of the code of ethics for OESCA reads: Quote: 5.All registrations, application forms, pedigrees, and certifications must be accurate and valid. Registration papers may not be sold independently of the dog. It is recommended that all dogs sold or being used for breeding, and their offspring, be permanently identified by microchip, DNA, or tattoo. Puppies may not be sold from any temporary marketplace or transient headquarters, no litters purchased or taken on consignment for resale, nor dogs wholesaled to pet shops, auctions, dealers, contest sponsors, raffles, etc. All advertising shall be factual, honest and forthright in nature and not in any way misleading. Also on another thread about getting a puppy, someone wrote that a website is a sign of a bad breeder, yet about half of the people on the OESCA have websites that actually list the pups that are available for sale. I am not really sure what the message is that is being sent to the buyer, maybe someone can help. Fair enough. Permanent ID of dogs is just good, common, sense for all pet owners, right? Most of us use a microchip, though, not DNA. If, god forbid, a dog ends up a shelter most reputable ones will at least scan for a chip. I can't see them taking DNA samples to try to track down the dog's owner, so I don't know what good that is. And tattoos fade. Until technology dictates differently, a microchip is currently the best way to go and breeders typically chip their entire litters before any puppies leave, often putting themselves down as second contact person. The dog should also be microchipped for OFA testing. If the dog does not have a permanent ID number it can still be OFA'd but it will be listed as NOPI - No Permanent ID. Or something like that. When we did the thyroid clinic (OFA thyroid screening) at the OESCA National this past year the vet had a scanner with her and would scan the dogs to verify chip number before we drew blood. And then I'd mark the forms that the ID number had been verified. Again, if we had to verify ID by DNA....expensive, time consuming, doesn't make sense. DNA has its uses, just not for most of the kind of things that most of us encounter, breeders or not. DNA is, however, critical for multi-sired litters. And no one is saying that only high-volume breeders/puppy mills have dogs with DNA numbers. Submitting DNA is required, if I'm not mistaken, when doing a breeding by artificial insemination (AI). It is also required of frequently used sires. There are a number of very nice OES who have been used a number of times by a number of different bitch owners who probably have DNA on file with the AKC. That doesn't make their breeders bad - or good. Having DNA on file can be for many different reasons and is in and of itself not indicative of anything in particular unless you also know the details of why the dog has a DNA number. So it's just a neutral thing. Required in some cases and not in others. As for websites, it used to be it was considered very bad form for OESCA breeders to admit they had puppies or even, god forbid, have a web presence  This, of course, meant that with a pet purchasing population that does, what? 90% or more of their research on the web these days? all they would find is artful BYB websites. I'm pleased to see more of the more serious American and Canadian breeders with more of a web presence, though it's still much more common in Europe than in N America to admit to actually, gasp, having a litter planned The actual difference is this; typically the better breeders who do have a web presence will list their dogs registered names, often with pedigrees and titles and MOST IMPORTANTLY, health clearances. I think it's Snowdowne that links their dogs directly to their OFA records. There may be others doing this as well. Why not make it easier for the public to verify what health testing has been done, and maybe even learn a little about how OFA works in the process? A very nice touch in my opinion. I hope to see lots of American breeders doing this in the future. So, yes, you will find some OESCA breeders who have a web presence. But the difference is glaring if you know what to look for. The problem is that many puppy buyers do not. Which is what Jaci is trying to rectify if I'm not mistaken. Personally, and I'll state up front that I am currently on the OESCA board but NOT speaking as a board member, this is just my personal opinion: I don't take serious issue with OES breeders who don't show and produce dogs who are hit and miss in the resembles as OES department as long as they are scrupulous about the temperaments they produce, do the pertinent health testing and take their own dogs back should a sale not work out. If educating buyers to the point that they demand these things from ANY breeder makes all breeders take this more seriously, Jaci has done "her" job as far as I'm concerned Kristine |
| All websites really are is an educational and/or marketing tool. A breeder will pass on any buyer who doesn't meet their minimum requirements anyway. All breeders have to wade through buyers to find those that are best qualified and most dedicated. Rescue is a lot the same way. I do have a question though about temperament and the price a breeder is asking for their puppies. Can you think of other things a buyer might ask that validate or support pricing... aside from the dog simply being an OES? I've seen OESs all the way up to $1,500 with no mention of health testing and that just seems crazy to me. * Are both the mother and father friendly toward strangers? * Have any of the dogs the breeder currently has or ever produced had temperament issues? * Are puppies still with their mother or has the breeder been forced to remove puppies from her care? Just commentary here- Forcing litters of puppies on bitches that don't want to be mothers? I don't see how puppies can get the best of starts if mom is nasty to them... Buyer: Where's the mother? Breeder: Oh, mom didn't like her babies so we had to take them away from her. Buyer: Is this her first litter? Breeder: Oh, nooo... it's her third. Parents Certification & Titles: Example- Canine Good Citizenship or Therapy Dog Certification indicates the breeder's time spent training their dog along with a dog's good manners and self control while in public. It's more proof to the buyer that a dog has a more sound and stable temperament. Canine Good Citizenship (CGC) Certified Therapy Dog AKC Championship Agility Herding Other ___________________________ Can you think of any others? |
| Maybe one of the points there should be also, "If at all possible sight the mother in her enviroment with her litter, see how she interacts with her puppies and also if possible sight the sire too" As we know sometimes that is not an option, especially if the stud dog lives in another state or even with the dam (mother of the litter) if there is distance and the puppy has to be shipped to you. On a side not Jaci do you really think people are going to be honest in responding to "Are both mother and father friendly towards stranger" "or breeders had any temperament issues" or "Are puppies still with mum" Again JMO as when you look at BYB's or even other avenues and you cant personally go an view the litter, the enviroment there raised in etc etc anyone wanting to make a "Quick Buck" will say anything ! Another point too, if they can see the litter and Mum look around at the enviroment there raised in. Is it spotless? No dirty looking puppies with yellow urine stains on them or stools all over the place? No discharges from the puppies eyes, are the eyes nice and bright and clear and do the ears smell sweet? Is mum nuturing and attentive to her pups? When you rang the breeder were they happy to have you visit? Just a few more thoughts there |
Those are very good points. I forgot to mention verifying cleanliness and where puppies are kept and mom's interaction with them. I'm not sure how people can verify this without a face-to-face visit. A video might give a brief glimpse. All of my puppies came to me via airplane and telephone/email correspondence though I did pay attention to what was shared in photographs. (I have been so lucky!  ) But more people have the ability to Photoshop pictures now too. Sorry... this was the preface so far for temperament... Quote: If one or both puppy parents have a fearful, aggressive or otherwise unsound temperament, can we expect their puppy to be any different? No one wants a dog that bites or who's behavior is aggressive or unpredictable. If at all possible, visit the breeder and meet both mother and father of the litter to determine if they are friendly and social. Do they come up to you like they're happy to see you or are they nervous, standoffish or trying to avoid you? Aggressive dogs or dogs with unstable temperaments should never be the foundation for future OES puppies. You do not want the puppy you purchase to have behavior problems that make him/her difficult or even dangerous to live with. One breeder had a cryptorchid stud dog. A buyer went to pick up their puppy and it was mentioned the sire was off in the distance watching. He didn't come up to greet or interact with the visitors. He fathered multiple litters of puppies. He's now living out his life in a sanctuary because he was deemed unplaceable due to an unpredictable temperament. Some of his puppies that later went through rescue had good temperaments, likely due to the mothers... but a daughter had to be euthanized because she shared her father's temperament. I guess I keep sharing these little stories so people will understand a little of what's going on out there and why buyers need to be asking better questions and requesting OFA/CERF test results. Good temperament and good health first and foremost... if the dog meets breed standard for beauty/appearance, the buyer has the complete and total package. If, in the end, we've ended up with only one of these three things, hope that it's good temperament... |
| On the mention of websites............I know we do not mention "puppies available" or "a spring litter is planned" etc. on our site. We have a puppy page & we have puppy pictures but it is basically a page to explain our breeding program, how we raise the litter & give people an idea about what our puppies generally look like so they can see the consistency among our past litters. People that contact me after looking at the website have generally had most of the initial questions answered from the website & are ready to get answers to the more "in depth" questions. The last thing I want is someone calling me saying "I was on your website & I want to purchase that boy puppy with the black right eyepatch". I agree that you have to "like the looks" of what you are going to live with but have found out over the years that markings are of the least importance. We do DNA on our males that are used more often in breeding, as mentioned by Kristine & as suggested on the AKC website. To be honest, right now our site needs updated. We've been so busy with other things that we haven't kept it "up to the minute". But it does give people an idea of what our line looks like with pictures of our adult dogs from the past & present. And with only about 33% of the population reading newspaper nowadays or looking up a phone number in the phone book, a website is almost essential if you want to educate people. Heck, I bet the younger generation doesn't even know how to read a map when traveling anymore! |
| Great job Jaci!!! I too side with those that say the initial information page needs to be "short and sweet" maybe with links or additional pages with the extended explanations and more information. I honestly think that there needs to be 1 printable page...maybe 2 at most with the condensed questions to ask/facts/things to look for. Then there can be as many other pages as necessary to explain and expound on the extended why of it all. People have almost no attention spans and more than a page or two of information would probably overwhelm them. Another idea would be a 1 or 2 page checklist/worksheet for people to fill out based on information from the breeder they are looking at. |
| Thinking expandable sections that contain more information would clean the page up and be less daunting. Show the important information and then have other info to consideration. More info is there if people want to access it. Good idea about the printable page. Maybe a button so people can access a PDF file and print the page or pages. Thanks for your suggestions, Amanda Thanks to everyone for their help and ideas. |
Quote: On a side note Jaci do you really think people are going to be honest in responding to "Are both mother and father friendly towards stranger" "or breeders had any temperament issues" or "Are puppies still with mum" I am sure many people have had to part with their OES due to temperament problems.... Many people have probably given up their loved pet thinking they have done something wrong. Since sickness is covered by a written guarantee why not temperament, if the seller guarantees that the buyer should take their dog to basic training classes (many times this teaches the owner as well as the pup)and if a qualified trainer determines the pup has a bad temperment this pup should be taken back to the breeder and covered by the warranty. I think the burden of a quality pup should be placed on the shoulders of the breeder. If the seller is willing to say the pup has a great personality they should have no problem putting it in writing. So many times, its once the pup gets sick or has a major problem that the buyer pulls the warranty out and reads it. Too Late. The buyer should be given plenty of time to review the guarantee and modify it if necessary, Maybe help the buyers understand they do not look at a pup.... fall in love with it... get some piece of paper that gives something like a 72 hour guarantee shoved under their nose, told just to sign here and you will be on your way..... Jaci, I would like to know how others feel about this but I think the breeder should KNOW they are producing a wonderful pup and they are willing to back it up in writing.... if a breeder does not want to cover major issues assume the worse and stay away. If its a bad breeder, and the pups never sell because they will not back them up, the bad breeder will disapear, if its a bad breeder and they sell knowing there are problems and have to refund all of the money, again that bad breeder will disapear.... I cant help but believe that if the buyer is armed with knowledge they will make a wise choice, and I do feel this site has the power to do just that. |
| Guaranteeing temperment? We breed for laid-back temperements. But a lot comes into play here. I have known breeders who got dogs back where the temperment had changed because kids in the family or neighborhood tormented the heck out of the dog. Also, you are looking at opinions too. What I considered just a dominant dog others might consider "too tough to handle". So this is a tough call. |
| One thing that we on this forum can do and that the good breeders can do is to let buyers know why they charge what they charge. Could I have had an OES cheaper than Mady? Sure I could have. I am sure I would have lost that money already in vet costs. Or worse there are people who don't take their sick dogs to the vet, they dump them. There are costs involved in testing. There are costs involved in getting new good dogs into your line of breeding to continue producing robust dogs, costs in showing and then the hidden costs in socializing. Even talking about showing is helpful. I used to think that it was always the prettiest dog who won in shows. I know that Mady's first two-legged mum spent much time socializing her dogs, getting them familiar with cars, new sounds etc. Sure she didn't pay for this in actual money, but hey, time IS money these days. When I was looking for Mady, a 1-2 page basic check list that I could print up and take to a breeder's place would have been handy. Something covering the basics: -have you done cerf testing -Can I see the mother and father? -Can I see paperwork on the mother and father etc. You guys know better than I what those basics would be and it would be important to expand on why those questions are important but having a 1-2 pager that people can print and take to a breeder visit would help. I went to see Amber with pages and pages of questions and I had noted which ones were most important. I had to have that list on paper, or the distraction of cute puppies would have made me forget, and I am guessing that this is what the puppymill people count on. I am thinking of maybe having a list of the basic questions with a link underneath to the post where the detail is explained thoroughly, giving people the chance to learn at home before they go out, but still having some short and sweet printable thing that they can take on their visits to breeders. Then they have a reference when they go home, if they are visiting multiple breeders and want to compare responses. |
Sheepdog Lover wrote: Maybe help the buyers understand they do not look at a pup.... fall in love with it... get some piece of paper that gives something like a 72 hour guarantee shoved under their nose, told just to sign here and you will be on your way..... Jaci, I would like to know how others feel about this but I think the breeder should KNOW they are producing a wonderful pup and they are willing to back it up in writing.... if a breeder does not want to cover major issues assume the worse and stay away. If its a bad breeder, and the pups never sell because they will not back them up, the bad breeder will disapear, if its a bad breeder and they sell knowing there are problems and have to refund all of the money, again that bad breeder will disapear.... I cant help but believe that if the buyer is armed with knowledge they will make a wise choice, and I do feel this site has the power to do just that. I agree that buyers need to slow things down. Too many times we make a decision to buy an OES and try to do so quickly. I'm one of these people so I know how people feel. We were devastated with the loss of our 11 year old OES-mix seven years ago and NEEDED to fill that horrible void. I honestly believe we were very lucky to have gotten good temperaments in all of our OESs. (Littermate bitches that co-exist beautifully. ) There was no careful selection or research on our part with our first OESs. I also agree that irresponsible breeders will put themselves out of business... it's the suffering of both dog and buyer though that we want to avoid. More irresponsible breeders just step up to fill the "need" because buyers want affordable puppies and so it continues. We may not be able to change some of these irresponsible puppy sellers but we may be able to change the buyer. I'm not sure that anyone can guarantee temperament once a puppy leaves their care and control because nature and nurture and environment probably affect the final outcome of the dog. It's not to say though that some dogs aren't simply wrong in the head.  If more than one puppy purchased from a breeder ends up with a difficult temperament, the breeder likely needs to take a closer look at their breeding dogs AND their screening process for selecting puppy buyers. Because there's a problem somewhere that needs to be corrected. I would think this would be another instance where having selected a dedicated and responsible breeder is extremely beneficial to the buyer.I just think though that the nature of the dog lies in the genes but outside factors can heavily influence temperament. People can ruin or cause damage to any "product" yet unfairly place blame on the seller that it's defective. Inappropriate handling where the adults/kids are disrespecting or even teasing a dog. Kids being allowed to ride the dog like a pony, using it as a race track for toy cars. Dogs have their limits in what they'll tolerate. Health guarantees are different. With a genetic health problem there's likely proof that the puppy was sold with genes that caused the condition. I think owners can do things that might exacerbate conditions like over exercising young puppies but a genetic condition is a genetic condition. But these claims of an "defective product" are easier to prove. (You all know I don't consider dogs products... just explaining it that way.) Mady wrote: I am thinking of maybe having a list of the basic questions with a link underneath to the post where the detail is explained thoroughly, giving people the chance to learn at home before they go out, but still having some short and sweet printable thing that they can take on their visits to breeders. Then they have a reference when they go home, if they are visiting multiple I think that's the way we'll go. Thanks for your input!Quote: I know that Mady's first two-legged mum spent much time socializing her dogs, getting them familiar with cars, new sounds etc. Sure she didn't pay for this in actual money, but hey, time IS money these days. It seems it would make the moms more stable though which would be reflected in the pups she produces. |
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