SERIOUS HELP NEEDED - BITING
My 14 yr old and I have always used positive reinforcement with Kolby to correct his behavior but I have to admit my hubby (who is usually very laid back Type B personality) gets frustrated and handles Kolby a little rough. He thinks he needs to know whose boss and does not think this positive reinforcement stuff is working. I have to say I was so upset an hour ago that I cried to my daughter and told her I think we may have to consider re-homing him. I know it would break my heart. I have spent many many hours nurturing him, exercising him, training him, grooming him, etc. I just feel HELPLESS! Should I try a different one on one trainer or give the group classes a try first. PLEASE HELP! P.S. We have already put a deposit down on a second OES pup due to be born in mid- March and come home in May. We are hoping a sibling will help but now I'm afraid Kolby could hurt the puppy. Still teary-eyed, Jackie |
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| So sorry you are going through all of this. It is never easy when you have a puppy/dog and they are not behaving the way that you want them. Biting and aggression are also very scary.... I guess I have some other questions.... Is your dog socialized with other dogs? Socialized with other people? If so, how often does your dog encounter others and how does he act? Is this behavior just with your family or other people as well? Does he normally sleep in his crate? Is the crate considered to be his "house?" What does he do once you put him in there. Does he like his house? Have you tried any dominance over him? Turning him on his side? Do you act scared around him? I would definitely enroll Kolby in classes. If you don't like your behaviorist, I would consider interviewing other ones or contacting the puppy school for some suggestions. Perhaps, they would have a different method of training that would work better. I am not sure getting a 2nd puppy is going to solve this problem. You might actually consider waiting a bit longer until you can work with him better before having another one. This is why I am asking a lot of questions regarding socialization and playgroups. The last thing you want is for your puppy to pick up the habits that Kolby has. You need to have Kolby under control before bringing in a new family member so that he can teach that new family member the ropes. Remember, that Sheepdogs can be very bossy and can also be quite the adolescents. They need lots of consistant training and reinforcement. You are on the right track... don't give up on him.... He will become the dog you want him to be.... You just need to go the extra mile for Kolby's sake. |
Hi Shari - Thank you so very much for your words of encouragement.  In response to your questions: I teach Special Ed full time and Kolby has been crate trained since we brought him home last May. I had the luxury to be home with him all summer so potty training was a breeze. He slept in a crate in our bedroom until he was 6 mos. old and is crated in the family room (larger crate) when we are not home. When he outgrew the bedroom crate we decided to let him sleep in our bedroom since he loves laying on the cool bathroom tile floor. He sleeps in our bed for about 10 min. when we settle in and then goes to the bathroom. He usually jumps back in our bed right around 5:30 a.m when it's time for us to rise and shine. He has never really shone a real liking for his crate but goes right in now after his morning walk when I have to leave for work. A pet sitter continues to come at noon-ish to play with him for half an hour and potty him and my daughter arrives home at 3 p.m from school. Kolby was enrolled in one puppy class at a local Dog Training Center until I became upset with the manner in which one of the trainers handled him. Because I am aware of how important socialization is for puppies, as soon as Kolby's vaccinations were complete, we took him to the dog park several times a week. He adores other dogs! Licks them and of course loves to run with them. He has never shown aggression to other dogs and in fact, recently was very scared by an Aussie Shephard who aggressively went after him! I guess I am most confused by his biting behavior when we are playing with him. I can understand how he may bite (but know it's not appropriate) for attention. But when I am giving him my undivided loving attention I am totally at a loss why he would bite at me in such a mean way. I don't see him doing this biting with other dogs. I have seen the crouch down - barking behavior with other dogs as a "Let's go! Let's play" behavior and he will do that with us as well. My daughter and I are volunteers at Animal Friends - a wonderful Pgh animal shelter- and that is where Kolby is currently enrolled to begin classes. I am going to give them a call today since I'm home on a snow day. They have several Animal Behaviorists on staff but I know this Forum has many OES experts. With deep appreciation, Jackie |
| Hi again Shari - I forgot to mention that I try not to act afraid around him. This is one tip the previous animal trainer gave us. He seems to do his most aggressive biting with my husband and me. Jackie |
| I'm so sorry you are going through this. Having a dog that bites is a scary thing. Were you planning on breeding him? If not, neutering might help somewhat. |
| So, it sounds to me the only problem then is when he is engaged with you and your husband. Are either of you dominant over him? Does he know who the boss is? Does he only bite the 2 of you at the same play spot in the backyard? Does this ever happen if you are in the house or at a park or some other location? Something a friend of mine tried with her pup---she put some coins in a soda can and taped the top. When the dog would sort of go from fun playing into a more aggressive play, she would shake that soda can. It would stop her from that behavior and she would be able to redirect the dog to something else....and give her a chance to end the play and walk away. At least this is something that sounds completely fixable....and that he is not doing this to all people and all things. |
| Have you talked to your breeder about this? Are any other puppies in the litter showing this kind of behavior? Is the next puppy that you're getting from the same breeder/breeding pair? No matter what the answers are to those questions, I'd really recommend holding off on a new puppy until you have these issues under control-- or even until Kolby has some time to just grow up, too. I think it'll be difficult to dedicate the time that your new puppy will need if you're in the process of trying to work with your other dog or, even worse, be constantly trying to shield the puppy from getting bit or injured. Biting sucks and it puts everyone on the defensive because you're dealing with a live wire. As each of my dogs turned a year, we went through a bout of fighting that turned a few months into constant edge-of-the-seat tension. Now everyone's over 2 years old and they've all settled down but it wasn't easy-- and the biting issues we had weren't even with people or aggression. It was just some jerky teenage boys jockeying for position. You don't want to have to worry about that on top of the existing biting issues. I don't think a new puppy is out of the question but I do think dedicating the time and training to Kolby's issues should come first. Once you're dealing with a stable dog, then consider bringing in the puppy but I'd worry you might be setting yourself up for disaster at this point. I don't mean this to sound preachy, I just want you to have a good experience and for things to get better. I know how stressful it is. |
| Ron: Thank you for your kind words. Kolby was neutered when he was 6 mos and 1 day oldl. Thanks for the suggestion. UPDATE: I have scheduled an Animal Behaviorist to come to our home next Monday evening. She comes highly recommended from Animal Friends and I am already feeling better after briefly speaking with her on the phone this evening. Also, the caring feedback from you , my dear Forum friends, has helped also and I will be able to sleep tonight. I will keep you all posted as to our progress. We have decided to talk to our Breeder about the situation and put the new puppy on "hold" until we see how quickly Kolby can extinguish the bitey behavior. We definitely want the new pup to be a great experience for the whole family - including Kolby! As they say, "Tomorrow is a new day!" Sheepie hugs to all, Jackie |
Guest wrote: My 14 yr old and I have always used positive reinforcement with Kolby to correct his behavior but I have to admit my hubby (who is usually very laid back Type B personality) gets frustrated and handles Kolby a little rough. He thinks he needs to know whose boss and does not think this positive reinforcement stuff is working. Hi Jackie, and welcome to the forum. I have read and re-read your post and what sticks out to me the most is the dominance issue. Being "a little rough" with Kolby will never work. The social dominance theory is bull (IMO). Studies show that trying to exhibit dominance by physical means only escalates the problems. I have a great research paper saved on this. PM me your email and I will share it will you. ButtersStotch wrote: Have you talked to your breeder about this? Are any other puppies in the litter showing this kind of behavior? Is the next puppy that you're getting from the same breeder/breeding pair? Jill has a very valid point. |
| As what everyone has already said. I'll just add a little to this... Quote: I guess I am most confused by his biting behavior when we are playing with him. Quote: Today, after walking him for 20 min. I took him to the back yard with his toys and we were romping in 6 in. of snow having a great time together When you play with him, what type of play is it? Is it a game where he focuses on a toy like "fetch" or is it running around with him, wrestling or roughhousing with him? Wondering if a calmer human-dog playtime might be helpful. If he's going to the dog park, he's likely being given the opportunity to expend that energy. After times of excitement, I'll allow him to calm down and have a different type of human-dog "play". Maybe grabbing a treat bag, putting him on a leash and taking him out for 10 minutes of one-on-one training 2-3 times a day might help. Some dogs seem to act more wild or get more excited when there is fast movement and/or shrill, loud or excited voices... it triggers a wilder side of the dog. If I act wild with Panda, she'll act wild right back at me. With her, if I take a quick step toward her with one foot and spread out my arms to her, she'll jump up on her hind feet and spread her front legs back at me (kind of scary  ). And she'll get more mouthy, snap-snapping with her teeth (I view it as "bring it on!"), because I've acted a certain way to her and have gotten her excited. So I seldom act that way with her knowing full well what her reaction will be. So maybe watch his body language... you might be able to learn when he's getting too excited or overstimulated so play can immediately end before his behavior becomes uncontrollable or unacceptable. But... maybe this doesn't apply to your boy. Just throwing it out there in case it might. Another thing too if he feels he's boss... don't allow him to view you as his servant. Maybe act a little more aloof to him. |
| Like Jaci I wondered if the biting was over excitement when playing with you. It's impossible to tell without seeing you interact so I'm really glad you're getting another behaviourist to come and observe you at home. My Tiggy is a very alpha girl and she would get crazy, silly when playing and start to snap a little. I managed it by stopping any play as soon as she even started to get like it but I didn't stop interacting with her I would swap from playing to training. The same as you're doing, sit, stay, shake etc. Then we would go back to playing. I stopped all tugging with her for a while even though I had wanted to teach her to enjoy tug for our agility classes. Whenever we played tug she would get to excited and snap indiscriminately at the tug and bite me. I decided it just wasn't worth getting her all silly and bitey and she couldn't learn "give" while she was so revved up. By the time she got to around 2, I was able to reintroduce it but always with fantastic treats to sway for the tug toy. We had to tug for 5 secs then stop for the treat. She is 3 now and is pretty good at giving up the tug toy but sometimes she still gets silly and I have to stop the game. Tiggy was always more bitey with my DH and I think that was because he liked to rough house with her. 3 times she had a go at him when he was roughly rubbing her ribs. I never figured out if she was sore or just didn't like it. DH learns slower than Tiggy and it took the 3 snaps and me going nuts at him to convince him to a) stop roughly rubbing her ribs and b) stop rough play with her. I ended up having to get really grumpy with him as his rough play which worked fine with a dalmo wasn't good for Tiggy. DH only seems to have one form of play with dogs and that is rough housing so now Tiggy goes to DH for pats and scratches and me for play. Good luck with the new behaviourist. Let us know how it goes. |
| Jackie, Kolby is lucky to have such a loving and persistent owner to help him through this issue. Everyone here has given great advice. A couple of thoughts. When we first got Oscar, he was a handful - which is putting it very nicely. Have you seen the Bugs Bunny cartoon with the Tasmanian Devil? That was Oscar, on a good day.  He was ALL fangs and claws, and just got bigger and bigger and bigger. (He's now 113 lbs.) When Oscar would get waaaayyyy out of control, I learned that the more frustrated and emotional I got, the worse his behavior became. The bigger I gestured (he's deaf), the crazier he got. Every escalation of mine was met with an escalation of inappropriate behavior from him. I learned to take a deep breath when I was losing it, and calm my face and my body language down. I think Oscar was reacting to my perceived "instability". Then I would ask something of him, and reward him with a treat when he responded appropriately, which redirected his naughtiness into something positive. I also learned that there were triggers and signs that things were going to get ugly, but I wasn't catching them quickly enough, and once Oscar got going, it was very difficult to derail the behavior. The trick for us was to catch things early, before an escalation. Then we had much better success at moving things in a positive direction. As others have posted, I do not subscribe to dominance theory either. I think it is too simplistic, and misguided, and creates an unnecessary adversarial relationship, rather than a cooperative one, IMHO. I got far more accomplished with Oscar by using positive reinforcement. Believe me, I'm no pushover. I am extremely stubborn (one of my hubby's fond nicknames for me is "Cement Head" ). People always comment on how well Oscar "listens", and when I take him to the vet, I can get him to do exactly what they require, using signs and gentle touch. All of that is a direct result of how I've trained him.Hang in there. It's great that you are trying a new behaviorist. Thank you for your dedication to your pup. Laurie and Oscar, now a Model Citizen |
| Just sounds like over excitable dog play. Dogs use their mouths. I take it he isn't snarling or baring teeth? Is he getting enough exercise in terms of walks and mind challenges, it may be pent up energy and just needs it draining? Mentally and physically. |
| Mady was nippy with me for much longer than she was with my wife, mainly due to the way I played with her, and the way I still play with her. It's a bit rough and she does get very excited. But I trained her that nipping me during play was not acceptable. Mainly by just stopping play with a very firm and loud (but not yelling) NO! |
| Howie was horrible for snapping and biting up until he was 7 months old. And I totally understand the scary feeling. I felt like I created a monster. Now at almost 11 months, he still tries use his mouth the odd time. Like David, my husband Mark plays a little more rough and so still gets the nipped once in a while. The play stops immediately. If I tell Howie to 'leave it' he looks at me, leaves the item, but snaps the air and then walks away. ATTITUDE. As well, I found that the biting and snapping often came when he need to go outside and poop. So as soon as I see him get mouthy (even now), outside he goes for a while. He always comes in a calmer dog. Good luck Jackie with the trainer. Hope they can help bring peace to your household.. peg and howie |
Archies Slave wrote: Just sounds like over excitable dog play. Dogs use their mouths. I take it he isn't snarling or baring teeth? Is he getting enough exercise in terms of walks and mind challenges, it may be pent up energy and just needs it draining? Mentally and physically. She said in the fourth sentence that he is snapping and baring teeth. |
| You have gotten great advice. I would work through all the suggestions you have been given. I only have one thing to offer. Sometimes, with some dogs, the only cure is an alpha roll. We had some nipping recently when she was excited and wanted to get into the car. She made it really clear we just weren't moving fast enough for her. I tried every correction I could think of to no avail. Then her breeder recommended the alpha roll. Worked like a charm after only two times. Now she goes to the car and stands by her door like a lady. It is amazing to see such a dramatic change in such a short time. It's funny, the sheepdog suit really pushes all my indulgence buttons. I've used the roll on Chessies, Rotties and GSDs but it just never occurred to me to use it on my little fluffy girl! And as Jill said, I would sure hold off on a puppy until you have all training handled. It just makes life easier. Good luck! |
| Hi Jackie---- I was just wondering how things were going? Can you give us an update on Kolby? |
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