Why We Dock?
I'm currently involved in putting together a marketing research study for a marketing/PR campaign. could I please get as much feedback as possible to the question below: WHY WE DOCK? At this time, I'm not concerned with opinions if an oes should or should be docked just why are they docked. You can email me personally [through the forum -ed.] if you do not wish. Thank you very much. Annie Hubbard [email removed -ed.] |
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| OK, I goofed. I'm sorry for locking this topic. Please feel free to respond to Annie! The other moderators and I will closely monitor this thread and delete argumentative or negative posts. On either side. My apologies. |
| 1. In the US we dock because it is our Breed Standard. 2. We've become accustomed the look of a docked OES. 3. This is America and the right to crop or dock should be up to the individual owner. |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: 1. In the US we dock because it is our Breed Standard. 2. We've become accustomed the look of a docked OES. 3. This is America and the right to crop or dock should be up to the individual owner. I couldn't agree more with all 3 of these statements....especially #3. And yes, I am a breeder. |
| One of the legends I have heard over the years is that way back in Jolly Olde England, sheep farmers were not taxed on their sheep, but were taxed on property, such as their dogs. in order to fool the Tax Collector who would stop by to conduct his assessment, the farmers "docked" the tails of their OES's so from a distance the Tax Collector would think they were just another sheep. I am sure there are many other "legends" about just why docking began, but since my heritage is Scottish and Scots are known for, shall we say their "frugality" it makes some sense to me. |
| I do prefer having a docked OES. I've seen pictures of undocked sheepies of our European and Australian members here, and they're still adorable, but it is my preference. I don't see any good reason why we can't have it as a choice. My sheepdog is an extremely well-socialized and active dog, she has a wonderful life. The docking has not harmed her in any way. Mady did not choose to have her tail docked, true, but she wasn't given a choice about being spayed either, a procedure which was much more invasive, risky, and does alter her "natural" state much more than a mere tail docking. But I don't see any organizations pushing for banning spay and neutering (quite the opposite). Honestly, I do feel the slightest twinge of guilt for spaying her, but I have absolutely none about the tail docking, as I said, it has not harmed or changed her in anyway, and she has a wonderful life that most dogs could envy. To be against tail-docking but NOT against spaying/neutering, is hypocritical and silly coming from humans who pierce, tattoo, and do all sorts of cosmetic surgery to themselves. Leave our breeds big beautiful round bear bums alone! |
| The essential word here is probably "English" and the breed standard was originally based on the UK standard. The show ring and breed clubs are responsible for creating these standards. In the UK dogs in the show ring are not permitted to be cosmetically altered (although ironically docking was excluded from this and permitted until 2007 when parliaments prohibited the practice) other surgeries such as spaying/neutering used to have to seek permission to show. There are many good reasons for not docking and unfortunately there are often spurious ones about the need to dock. There are similar coated breeds to the OES which are not docked such as the Bearded Collie (after the WW2 years Beardies it was claimed were cross bred in Scotland with OES to bring the breed back). Other breeds include the Komondor, Puli, Rough Collies, Owcharka etc. Docking working dogs came about originally in England to enable working dogs to be exempt from a general tax on dogs (repealed 1796). The OES is one of the breeds that is docked very close to the spine and dogs can and do suffer from anal muscle atrophy which prevents firm stools being excreted. This can also lead to other neural problems. Spaying and neutering are completely different and have come about because of irresponsible ownership and currently it is the only measure that rescue centres can find to cut down the thousands of unwanted dogs in countries. Some owners do this for their own convenience anyway rather than consideration for the dog. Further information about docking and photos of undocked OES see http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk Owners/breeders should re-visit their pre-conceived views on the right to surgically alter their dogs. Many countries have now banned the procedures of cosmetic alterations. |
| Poll: Should the admin dock the previous post/poster? |
^^^I'm all for docking  . |
Ron wrote: Poll: Should the admin dock the previous post/poster? YUP |
Ron wrote: Poll: Should the admin dock the previous post/poster? That would be my vote.  Kristine |
| Yes. |
| I grew up with sheepdogs, and all had docked tails. I think its a significant aspect of the breed- why else would we call them "bobtails"? For me, a sheepdog is a dog without a tail, and it always will be. I will always choose docking over not, because I like how it looks,I prefer giant wiggly butts over wagging tails, I like the history of the breed being this way, and because it is done humanely and causes the dogs no long term problems. If I thought for a minute that docking was hurtful in anyway to my dog, I would reconsider my stance. |
Thereby hangs a tail wrote: Spaying and neutering are completely different and have come about because of irresponsible ownership and currently it is the only measure that rescue centres can find to cut down the thousands of unwanted dogs in countries. Some owners do this for their own convenience anyway rather than consideration for the dog. Can we spay or neuter this poster, as opposed to docking them? You know, out of convenience? |
| As a breeder I dock first and foremost because our standard requires it. As for "why" the standard requires it, even though I think there are lots of legitimate reasons now for docking that we can rationalize and justify but originally those didn't exist. I have lots of reasons why I prefer docked tails, but I guess that falls under the category of opinion. If you only want the "why" I guess simply because we are supposed to and because thankfully we are still allowed. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I grew up with sheepdogs, and all had docked tails. I think its a significant aspect of the breed- why else would we call them "bobtails"? For me, a sheepdog is a dog without a tail, and it always will be. I will always choose docking over not, because I like how it looks,I prefer giant wiggly butts over wagging tails, I like the history of the breed being this way, and because it is done humanely and causes the dogs no long term problems. If I thought for a minute that docking was hurtful in anyway to my dog, I would reconsider my stance. I have one of each, and I completely agree with you! That big ol' butt wiggle is just perfect! |
| I answered this post I think on another list but to repeat...I originally fell in love with the OES breed because of its docked tail, wiggly but, boxing shape, etc. The docked tail is what adds to the breeds charm...Plus, the fact that is is called the Bobtail, sems to indicate it should ahve, well, a bobtail! I'm not sure why docking causes such a commotion. If done at the proper time, it seems to be no bigger deal than us humans circumsizing our male babies  |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Maggie McGee IV wrote: 1. In the US we dock because it is our Breed Standard. 2. We've become accustomed the look of a docked OES. 3. This is America and the right to crop or dock should be up to the individual owner. I couldn't agree more with all 3 of these statements....especially #3. And yes, I am a breeder. And both Norm and I couldn't agree faster or more! There is also the situation of people that live in very hot arid areas, where there are flies. Yes, I worked in a grooming shop years ago and yes, I HAVE pulled maggots out of infected rear's from people that don't check to make sure their OES bums are clean. We must keep this right to dock in our breed. Nothing says we don't have to leave a tail on, that is up to any breeder to do if they want to, but to be told NO YOU CANNOT is not the way! Do not take our rights away the Animal Rights people already have such a strong hold over other items it is horrendous. The fallacy of you cannot tell the 'expression' of a dog or if it is happy or not is just hogwash! It was a shame 20 years ago when i forwarned people on the original list, and again or our breeders list that the Animal Rights movement in Europe had started the no docking movement. "OH, IT will NEVER happen HERE", "OH, It's just a fad, it will never go all over euroope" "The KC in England will put an end to that rubbish" I'vw heard it all........... and country by country the RIGHTS OF THE BREEDERS were taken away by the AR movement weaseling their way into the governments, vet schools etc. Please when voting on the new breed standard people, think about what you are voting on. Go to the Tolkien website and read the ORIGINAL 1905 Breed Standard and then read what is proposed and how alike they are......... think on what a lot of people are asking you to vote against and then MAKE AN EDUCATED VOTE FOR YOURSELF. DO NOT MAKE A VOTE JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD YOU THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE APPROVED! The Breed Standard Committee has been made up of older OES Breeders, which were asked by the club to look at the Breed Standard and see if it needed to be rewritten or gone back to the natural original 1905 standard or other changes. These OES Breeders have worked hard for 2 years on this standard before putting it to the OESCA Board which APPROVED that it go to the membership for approval! The people that are objecting the loudest is because they have dogs that probably wouldn't meet the standard as it was Originally written. |
| If only the people, who for some reason, are strongly anti-docking activists, directed their energy and efforts towards all the real issues and problems with dogs. e.g. puppy mills, abusive breeders and owners, over-crowded shelters etc. You know, the issues which cause real harm to countless dogs, with or without tails, every year. If I thought Mady's life or happiness was even remotely compromised by her docked tail, I would change my mind. But she is in great health, living a dream life. The European and Aussie sheepdogs I've seen pictures of, are of course, still adorable and lovely. But I prefer a docked tail, I love their panda butts. Come meet my Mady and tell me where she has been compromised in any way! |
Ali wrote: The people that are objecting the loudest is because they have dogs that probably wouldn't meet the standard as it was Originally written. Were the proposed revisions an attempt to go back to 1905? Or 1888 even? Interesting. More importantly, please note that the OESCA board did not in any way approve these revisions. To the contrary, the board voted several times not to send them on to the membership, documented in the minutes as published in prior OETs. The revisions are being voted on simply because they were brought to the membership by virtue of a petition and the board is merely following the applicable by laws when sending this to a membership vote. That should not be interpreted to mean that the revisions themselves have the board's endorsement or approval. Ron, dock me if you must for straying so far off topic  My apologies. And to Annie as well. Returning you to your regularly schedule Why Do We Dock discussion. Very much enjoying reading the commentary.Thanks! Kristine |
Ashley wrote: I answered this post I think on another list but to repeat...I originally fell in love with the OES breed because of its docked tail, wiggly but, boxing shape, etc. The docked tail is what adds to the breeds charm...Plus, the fact that is is called the Bobtail, sems to indicate it should ahve, well, a bobtail! I'm not sure why docking causes such a commotion. If done at the proper time, it seems to be no bigger deal than us humans circumsizing our male babies Very true. Having both now, I dont mind either but I did object when our right to choose was taken away by government by regulation. Just on a side note, there butts are still wiggly even with a tail. Even though the tail goes faster then the wiggly butt Now does babette on a stack look like she has a tail? Or alters her shape in any way?  Backside view of her with that thing hanging off her butt  One thing I have noticed is with a tail there even more agile and can turn at full speed sharper, the tail acts like a rudder and a balancing appendage, down side is having an extra area to groom.  |
| to the originator of the post, you say you are doing this for a marketing standpoint??? Please tell us who this marketing is for and is it for or against docking??? |
I do not show nor am I am expert I have two rescue sheepies . My husband loves the docked butt of a sheepdog But I long to have one with a tail I think they are beautiful. But I agree with the other poster FOCUS on puppy mills animal abuse and other issues. I just wish some folks did nothave such a fit over docked vs un docked Just my thoughts I don't really count in this poll  |
| I agree completely Cindy, there is more important issues then worrying about if an OES has a waggy thing or not. My views after having both,still current, one docked, two not, there all still OES and a breed that endears our hearts with the joy they bring us wether with tail or without. There is more to them then worrying about that. |
| My personal view is to dock - reasons being is because thats what a bobtail is and having tail takes away what I know and love. When the docking ban came into force in England - I thought long and hard do I live with a tail or do I live without an OES - well as you've guessed it - I decided to live with a tail, however, IF the docking ban was to be reversed I would be over joyed. I show my dogs and have noticed especially in England that we are loosing our breed that we love, know and respect is this because of the tail, the gene pool or indeed the old breeders sadly moving onto other breeds - its something we may never know.... Now I do believe the reasons why the dogs were docked was because an OES used to and sometimes still do work on a farm herding sheep - a joy to see. So the sheep would get docked and so would the working dogs. I also believe that if the dogs were docked moons ago then the owners didnt need to pay a tax - same as today if you buy dog food for working dogs then you do not pay tax! The Kennel Club sitll havent set a standard for how the tail should look and how it should be carried. Most of the judges in the ring do not even check that the dog they are juding has a tail or not depending on the age of the dog. If you look around in the ring there are so many variations of tails and some a quite honestly strange.  Good luck with your research and I would love to see the results - if you would please share them. M |
| I'm not a breeder or an expert, my idea of a sheepie is with a docked tail. I agree with David and many others here, if I thought it hurt them or affected them in a negative way I could see the argument for not docking. But like others, I think that people should spend more time and enegy dealing with abuse to animals. Let's fix those problems first and when we run out of these problems we can discuss docking....oh sorry that's just my opinion. I believe we dock for historical reasons and breed standards. |
| Well I like a dog with a tail. It gives it blance when running & it is a part of a dog. Alot of breeds have been changed over the years. This was used as a hearding tax, ( which was wrong at the time) but this is my own view. As long as the dog is well looked after & in good health I think people can have there own views. The major point is : As long as the dog is not affected by all this type of funny breeding it don't matter. I think these groups should go after these puppy farms & people who harm dogs,cats and other animals. |
| Around my area (I live in Western Canada) there aren't a lot of OES around but of the few I have seen about 50% are docked. My dog has a docked tail and all of the OES we had previously had docked tails. One of our previous dogs was a show dog but the others were simply companion dogs. I would love my sheepie just the same with a tail or without. I have heard from groomers that OES who have tails often have major matting in the tail but I have also heard from these groomers that a lot of the OES they see have to be shaved because of terrible matting which sounds more like the dog owners issue than the fault of the tail. Grooming is one of my favorite parts of owning my sheepie  . The reason most people select a dog as a companion initially is the look and breed traits but once you have a sheepdog and love them the sweet disposition, large character and amazing capacity to be part of your family the look of the dog isn't the most important part. I would love Leonard if he had three tails. |
| Interesting thread, it has made me realize that I'm anti tail, although its a revelation. I was completely unaware of my bias. I have "served" Yorkies, boxers and cocker spaniels during my life. Several strays growing up had tails but my choice has always been docked. I cannot imagine Charm with a tail, probably because unconsciously I was attracted to their bobtail butt. |
bruuruu wrote: Around my area (I live in Western Canada) there aren't a lot of OES around but of the few I have seen about 50% are docked. My dog has a docked tail and all of the OES we had previously had docked tails. One of our previous dogs was a show dog but the others were simply companion dogs. I would love my sheepie just the same with a tail or without. I have heard from groomers that OES who have tails often have major matting in the tail but I have also heard from these groomers that a lot of the OES they see have to be shaved because of terrible matting which sounds more like the dog owners issue than the fault of the tail. Grooming is one of my favorite parts of owning my sheepie . The reason most people select a dog as a companion initially is the look and breed traits but once you have a sheepdog and love them the sweet disposition, large character and amazing capacity to be part of your family the look of the dog isn't the most important part. I would love Leonard if he had three tails. Just to be clear, in Canada there are NO *reputable* breeders that I am aware of who leave tails on. If you've seen that many with tails my guess is they are from puppy mill/byb situations. |
| It is illegal here in Nova Scotia, Canada to dock tails. I'm not sure about the rest of the Maritime provinces. I have heard that New Brunswick is following us. That being said, there are no breeders in Nova Scotia of Old English Sheepdogs or in any of the Maritimes. The only ones are byb. Our wonderful sheepie came to us from Alberta and has a docked tail. |
 I dock my boat so that I don't lose it and I guess that the reason for sombody to dock their sheepie is exactly the opposite of that!  |
| About the Canadian breeders and tails left on, I know one of them is a puppy mill dog for sure because the people got her through an Internet site and she is not registered and they didnt know the breeder. Another was from a breeder in Saskatchewan who is no longer breeding dogs. Although one of the dogs I have met with a tail comes from a Canadain breeder who is considered quite reputable and seems well respected by many posters on this forum. The people who got the dog told me they made a special request to leave the dogs tail on. The other two dogs I have met from this breeder have docked tails so maybe it was a special arrangement. Given how far We live from any OES breeders it wouldn't surprise me if many people got their dogs from BYBs ... Although they are still very rare here; I have seen more OES mixes here than plain old' OES. Personally Leonard's balanced temperament, amazing smarts and perfection (to quote the vet) we're worth tracking down a breeder and flying him out here. Like I said, tail or no tail he's wonderful. Now off for walks we go! |
| It seems to me that these days docking is solely for cosmetic reasons rather than for practical or health reasons. And of course our 'right' to be able to do it. I think they are cute either way, but would rather have had Monty with a tail, as I'd prefer not to have anything altered if it is not beneficial for their health. You are in a bit of a catch if you show dogs as docking is the standard for the breed now. Things change so maybe the standard in the future will be a big bushy tail that sweeps everything of the coffee table because of their big wiggly bum |
| I like a dog with a tail. The first question i asked my breeder before going to look at the puppies was, will my oes have a tail? If shed have said no there is no way i would have had an oes. Luckily for me docking was made banned in UK few years ago. Im sorry but its not the old days anymore, dogs were born with tails like we were born with legs. Its like chopping off a new born babies foot off because it `looks better`. They are cute either way but personally i think they are creepy without tails, i prefer the fluffy tail flying in the wind Good look with the research even though im a liyttle late  |
| This is my favourite video of an OES with a tail, it wags so furiously, he is also a multi-task dog, squeaking a plastic bone at the same time as fetching a ball. I hoped Monty would do this but he is not a multi-tasker. |
| Love the video, what a happy looking pup! |
| I greatly prefer a docked sheepie. Even if it is just "cosmetic", I think it should always remain a choice. My sheepies lead very happy, healthy, adventurous, fulfilling lives, I'd wager much more so than the average pet dog out there. The lack of a tail has zero impact. I can only think those who press for tail-docking bans are ignorant busybodies who should spend their excessive energy and efforts on issues that actually do matter and negatively impact dogs. |
| I don't push for it as I don't really care. I don't think docking mentally or physically hurts the dog either. Just think if they are born with it they should keep it. I would hate to think the breed would die out if a ban came in, in Canada and the USA and breeders stopped breeding because of it. I have already heard from one breeder they would stop breeding. This could lead to a greater decline in the breed. Just to keep things happy. Here's my favourite video of a OES without a tail. Another multi tasker. I know he is a little matty but he looks really happy and his attention to the task always makes me smile. |
Love the soccer (football) playing sheepie!  |
MontyQs wrote: Just to keep things happy. Here's my favourite video of a OES without a tail. Another multi tasker. I know he is a little matty but he looks really happy and his attention to the task always makes me smile. I love it!!! Benson does this EXACT same thing! Something squeaky for the mouth, something rolly for the feet. I've been trying to get a video, but never have the camera handy when she starts.  |
| I think its up to the person & the breeder. We all have our views and not just on sheepies. I met up with a mate of mine and his doberman had a long tail & looked very odd. I think it depends on what you are doing with the dog as well. The main thing is that the dog is looked after with or without a tail. |
Parwaz wrote: I think its up to the person & the breeder. We all have our views and not just on sheepies. I met up with a mate of mine and his doberman had a long tail & looked very odd. I think it depends on what you are doing with the dog as well. The main thing is that the dog is looked after with or without a tail. Well put! |
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