Growling/biting
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| I think you need to find a dog trainer/behavior specialist to evaluate her. Growling and biting is pretty serious with any dog. I feel certain the deafness may have something to do with it...have you talked to your vet? Maybe a good examination might be the cause...something could be wrong and hurting your dog. I would start with the vet and an examination and possibly a trainer. This won't go away or just get better. |
| I would do a search on "resource guarding" on this forum, as I know there are threads out there on this subject. Resource guarding can be tough to deal with, as it is self-reinforcing behavior. She growls/lunges/bites, and she gets what she wants. It sounds like you might need some professional help (a behaviorist), based upon the fact that she has bitten people numerous times. If she reacts this way with a bone, then I would hold off on giving her any until you make some headway with this issue. Obviously, you can't do that with food, but you can minimize the number of times she feels like she has to protect her resource. I also have a deaf sheepdog, Oscar. Keep up the hand signal training, with the emphasis on positive reinforcement, as that is exactly what we did with our knucklehead. I'm sure others with more experience in this area will chime in. Laurie and Oscar |
| You say you have just figured out she is deaf. Did you have her tested? A vet visit is definitely in order so you know exactly where she is coming from before starting any new kind of training. |
| Yes, I have been to the vet about this behavior last week. Had a through exam, although an actual hearing test was not done with a machine, other kinds of testing were done while OES was not aware, i.e. blow horn, whistles, with no reaction, a stomp of the foot on the floor next to her got her attention (vibration) right away. Discussion with the vet included putting the dog to sleep as one of the options, saying something could be wrong in her head, not wired right. Vet stated this just isn't normal behavior, that being unpredictable is very dangerous to my family and others, and quality of life for everyone involved is not good. Talked about getting her fixed, but vet said this won't change her in that way, but advised it. Also talked about hiring a behavior specialist and/or trainer. I felt the vet was basically saying, something possibly may be wrong with her and to really think about the options. I've been putting a lead-type of thingy around her nose keeping it open enough to breathe (trying to stay away from the muzzle for breathing purposes, bothers me to see her pant), but to help minimize any biting to me or anyone else. Just a moment ago, I brought her into her room which is an office type of room where she has a bed on the floor, brought a treat showing her positiive reinforcement, and as I was giving her the treat, she lounged at me, with that bad growl, grabbing the treat hard out of my hand feeling her teeth (which during the day she is so gentle and happy), so I closed the door quickly. I just love her to death, but this behavior is just stressful with tons of fear. |
| It does sound alot like resource guarding to me. You need a trainer, especially with a deaf dog. Here are a few small steps to take til you can afford a trainer. Take anything away of high value, things that she tend to attack people for. Treats, bones, even her crate. Change her food bowl to a different bowl(as she probably would be aggressive if it was her bowl) and hold her food while she eats. Look up NILF training (nothing in life is free). It sounds like you NEED to do this training with her. |
| Thank you for your suggestions, I will be trying them right away for sure...When the weather gets better (buried in snow right now) will call the trainer again (have talked to her already) to do the training as it is all outside. She is a good dog all day long (even when she takes something she isn't suppose to have - nonfood items). Just seems to be related when it darkens, her crate, her room she is in, and her food/treats and being under the table (doesn't want anyone touching her when she is under there) or walking between her and someone with food. UGH.. |
| Is it possible she can't see well? The darkness issue makes me think of this...my Mom had a poodle that went blind and she would stay in a corner and try to bite us...this after 8 years of never growling or trying to bite...that's how we knew she was going blind...I don't know how you give a dog an eye test? |
lhall15 wrote: Is it possible she can't see well? The darkness issue makes me think of this...my Mom had a poodle that went blind and she would stay in a corner and try to bite us...this after 8 years of never growling or trying to bite...that's how we knew she was going blind...I don't know how you give a dog an eye test? I was thinking this too. She may have PRA or juvenile cataracts. I would call a vet that is an Opthomologist & have her eyes tested. It's called a CERF test. If you can find a clinic it is usually cheaper but they are not available all the time only sporadically by kennel clubs that do it as a service project. The main thing is to find a baseline on sight & hearing so if you have trainer or behavioprist come in they know what they are dealing with & can tailor the training to solve your problems. |
| My girl has one blue eye and one brown eye....so the vet said, deafness is higher in dogs with a blue eye, and so isn't some sort of sight impairment. Vet did check her eyes to see if she tracks and she did fine as far as she could see. I even cut away the hair around her eyes just to make sure there isn't any obstruction for her eyes. I'm started trying suggestions, first one is....I put her Wellness dog food on a plate this morning, fed her 2-1/2 cups out of my hand without any problems. Will do this tonight with her next 2-1/2 cups of food and keep doing this to see if this changes anything. WHen she does growl at night (usually I have something on her mouth because I fear it) we right away, grabbed her collar and said NO with hand language, and she gets worse, we take her down to the ground, leaning on her until she calms down, so we are not letting her get away with it...the only thing she gets away with, if she has nothing on her mouth, and she does this I certainly back off...not wanting another bite. She has bitten me once very badly (probably should have had stitches but didn't) and my husband twice, all these times it was a matter of walking into her room, or walking by her while she was lying down, and another time trying to close her crate at the time and she attacked the door and got out and bit. Crate was huge, wired one, big enough for her to lie down and move around, so not sure why she didn't like it. |
| With the "walking by" whether it is a room, a crate or an area like under a table, she is probably being protective of her area. Not something I like to see but not something unusual either. As far as the 1 eye brown & 1 eye blue or 2 blue eyes having a higher significance of deafness....in OES that is not true. It is true in Dalmatians & maybe in other breeds. But I have seen 2 blue eyed OES that are definitely not deaf. I have seen OES with 1 brown & 1 blue that aren't deaf. And I have see ones with 2 dark brown eyes that ARE deaf. It can happen if both parents have recessive genes for deafness in the breeding, whether or not deafness is produced. And some can be deaf in only 1 ear also. Without a Baer test one wouldn't know this. Also, a female from a litter that is going to be used in breeding may have perfect hearing but may have produced puppies that are deaf & the breeder doesn't know about it or may have litter mates that are deaf & the breeder doesn't know about it. |
| Good info. to know. Thank you. Just want to deal and find a solution for her to make a better life for her and us. |
| I think you'll find the vet is right about coloration and deafness. Lack of pigment is related to deafness so dogs with more white (dalmatians) and dogs with blue eyes are more likely to be deaf. It is not absolute though so you can get dogs with lots of white and two blue eyes who can hear and dogs with two brown eyes who can't. You might find this link interesting http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=31979 There is some info posted about deafness and pigmentation by one of our members who has studied the genetics of the OES breed. |
| Hand feeding is good, you may have to keep it up for a while though. The next step is putting your hand in the food(while holding it) and doing that for a little while. I had to do that with Simon who was also guarding his food. I'm thinking that "some" of this behavior is from being startled, unexpected. Try stomping your feet sometimes so she knows you are coming. Take her crate away and don't let her sleep in the same room anymore. If she growls while under the table...take that option away also, don't let her get underneath the table. What I'm trying to get at here is take away her triggers, the things that she is guarding. As a last resort there is a basket muzzle. It lets the dog pant and my Garfunkel evens drinks with it on. He has to have it on in the company of other dogs so he doesn't nip as they run by. You can work with her and things you can do and maybe nip this in the bud while she is young yet. Don't let it escalate and definately get some help. |
Quote: When she does growl at night (usually I have something on her mouth because I fear it) we right away, grabbed her collar and said NO with hand language, and she gets worse, we take her down to the ground, leaning on her until she calms down, so we are not letting her get away with it...the only thing she gets away with, if she has nothing on her mouth, and she does this I certainly back off...not wanting another bite. I am not a trainer but what you've shared sounds serious if the bites should have had stitches and your vet is talking euthanasia. I'm afraid things have escalated into a dangerous area and you need to quickly determine if there is a safe solution. I don't think you can wait any longer to bring in a professional canine behaviorist. She growls, telling you to stay back... you advance and grab her collar, then take her down to the ground to be pinned until she calms. Growling often tells us a dog has reached their limit and to stay back or we may push them past their level of self restraint. Ask the behaviorist but I would stop the grabbing of her collar as a correction and also the take down to the ground until he/she can come in to observe what's happening and offer advice. Some dogs bite when their collars are grabbed, especially if they're at a high level of excitement/stress. And the take-down may be viewed as a physical challenge to her that she sometimes wins (if she has nothing on her mouth). If it's a new training method, it's probably not related but if it's been used for some time, she may be responding poorly to it. Please notify the breeder of the seriousness of her behavior and probable deafness. Aggression and deafness are not something a breeder wants in their lines. I sincerely hope that with the help of a behaviorist the stress level will be reduced and you will be able to find different ways to help her become a better companion.  You probably already have it but here's the link to DeafDogs.org- http://deafdogs.org .Quote: Just seems to be related when it darkens, her crate, her room she is in, and her food/treats and being under the table (doesn't want anyone touching her when she is under there) or walking between her and someone with food. UGH.. If this is happening only when it's dark, wondering what would happen if you kept the room where she stays bright with lighting. Maybe there was some level of startle-reflex that originally started the behavior. Or it could be something to do with confined spaces. |
Hello, I am sorry you are going through this with your deaf baby  The first thing that really jumped out at me was the fact she is in a dark room. I have two deaf dogs and they rely VERY heavily on their eye sight. If I were to put them in a dark room I am sure they would act up out of fear. They can't hear what is going on around them so, imagine how scary it would be to not be able to see. Yes, deaf dogs do feel vibrations so, maybe if she is asleep and feels a vibration, or sees a shadow underneath the door it scares her... Dogs are very intelligent and she knows that once you give her a treat you are leaving her in a place she is not comfortable so, she is attempting to stop you! I would leave a bright light on, as mentioned..even a night light may throw shadows and scare her. My deaf boy reacts to lightning the way hearing dogs react to thunder (his is very mild but, he does notice flashing lights) If she is asleep and you walk by her she bites because, she is startled... When you wake up a deaf dog you can NEVER start at the head to wake them (unless you have their total trust) I usually start with a gentle tummy rub but, since she is startling you may just want to approach her until she feels your presence.(at a safe distance if you are afraid she will bite) Believe me the sense of smell on a deaf dog is a very strong one!  Grabbing a collar, alpha rolling etc....is not a good idea for any dog showing agrression (IMHO) I think a calm settle is more effective if you can get to that point with her. Marty tried to alpha roll Finn when he was younger and that did not work well a all!!!!! Finn hates his ears messed with and we have to get stern with him on ear cleaning but, I have found out a calm settle is so much less stressful! Speaking of ears..does she let you clean them? Deaf dogs seem to be very picky about their ears getting plucked! I don't have an answer for that so, if you do please let me know!  Please let me know if you have any questions...I will try to think of more helpful hints BUT, like the others said you really should contact a trainer. Have you contacted the breeder to see if she knew the dog was deaf? This is certainly something she/he should be made aware of. Good Luck! |
| Jaci...That is VERY good advice...and my question too??? Have you contacted your breeder??? She may be able to shed some light on what is going on...Is resource guarding an inheritated trait??? Is any of the other litter deaf??? or have eye problems??? These are the questions I would be asking my breeder if I had a problem like this. And finally, a trainer is very different from a behaviorist. I know because I had to have a behaviorist come in to help me with my Beardie, Cosmo. I took him to obedience classes and he did great!! The 'trainer' said he was one of the best, most focused dog for his age (6 months at the time). But she could not help me with the bigger problems I was having at home. It took a GOOD behaviorist to help me understand his problems and then he gave me 'tools' (he trained me) to help him cope with the issues at hand. Finally, please be sure to get recommendations for a behaviorist. Many say they are, but ....... Call your vet, or a couple of vets in your area, and IF you have a service dog or therapy dog program around you, call them and ask if they could recommend one. Many times service dogs or therapy dogs may have minor problems, but these organizations only go to the BEST to resolve them!! Good Luck!!! and please keep us posted!! We are here to give you suggestions and support. |
| Jaci and Kathy, great posts. The collar grabbing and alpha-rolling seems to be escalating things, not taking them down a notch. It's a tough situation, because you don't want to reward the pup for inappropriate behavior, but you also don't want to force a showdown - which is where these folks seem to be stuck. I, too, would stop those things until professional help could be sought, as it sounds like they are doing more harm than good. I would again suggest a behaviorist, someone who can come in and assess the situation calmly. Unfortunately, when our pups are acting up, our reactions are emotional, and undermine what we are trying to accomplish. Also, we might not pick up on the triggers for the escalation, which a trained behaviorist can do. In dealing with Oscar when he was young, I thought I could see where things were going off course, but it took someone else to point out that the cycle actually started much sooner. Once I understood that, I could break the cycle before things got out of control. I whole-heartedly agree with the lighting issue. When Oscar came home with us, we slept in total darkness. That lasted one night.  I immediately went out and bought a ton of night lights, and put them in practically every outlet in our master bedroom and bathroom. He is NEVER in the dark, and we've learned to sleep like we're on a landing strip at O'Hare Airport. (I take a flashlight out when we walk at night.) Oscar's vision and sense of smell are amazing, but every now and again, he can still be startled. I am starting to wonder if this pup also has a vision impairment of some kind, maybe able to see movement and shadows, but not clearly?Kathy, it's so funny you mention Finn's ears. Oscar is very particular about his ears, so much so that I pluck the hair, and save the groomer the drama.  (Just kidding. Oscar doesn't like it at all, but he always lets me do it without fuss. I just didn't want Oscar having more anxiety about going to the groomer.) Luckily, Oscar doesn't grow half the hair Quincy Bear used to, so I only have to pluck once a month or so. In my limited understand, I've heard that congenital deafness in dogs can be a result of lack of sound-carrying hair in the ear canal (related to pigment), as it doesn't grow at all, or it grows and dies off quickly.Please keep us posted on this puppy. Laurie and Oscar |
| I have learned Finn does better if I do it while he is in the bath tub(before the bath of course) He still gets sassy...not biting just wild!  I also noticed that I repeated a lot of what Jaci said I am also guilty of not being a thorough reader! |
Kathy, I think you did a great job of reinforcing some of the things that Jaci said, as well as adding new insights from your experience with deaf dogs. I also think reading similar info, from multiple, well-informed  people can only be helpful to someone facing such a difficult situation. We just have to hope that some of our personal experiences are helpful in some way.Laurie and Oscar |
| I keep checking back for an update on the little gal! Please, let us know how she is doing.....  |
Kathy and I both live with a good size pack so we often do a lot of the same things. We also experience multiple and diverse personalities at one time. (The dogs, not ours!  ) Kathy more so than me due to the rehoming of multiple rescue dogs!! But both Kathy and Laurie have the hands on deaf dog experience.Quote: When the weather gets better (buried in snow right now) will call the trainer again (have talked to her already) to do the training as it is all outside. If the behavior is happening inside the home, the behavior training will likely need to be done in the home too in order to help her work past her fear, startle or territory issue. Basic training can take place outdoors but the behavior issue will likely need to be handled indoors. I don't know whether the right behaviorist will be able to help her. Maybe a lesson or two will give you the answer. We had a dog-aggressive female and the level of stress in the home was high. It was like having a loaded gun lying around. I can only imagine the level of stress you're all experiencing. You might want to check the Leerbug website for a basket muzzle that may help to protect you while you decide what to do. They also have articles on aggressive dogs... I'm only sharing this because I don't know if you're able to bring in a behaviorist at this time. I do NOT know whether the approach would be appropriate for your particular dog or if it might push her further over the edge. Just sharing the link so you can decide- http://leerburg.com/aggresiv.htm . |
6Girls wrote: Quote: I don't know whether the right behaviorist will be able to help her. Maybe a lesson or two will give you the answer. We had a dog-aggressive female and the level of stress in the home was high. It was like having a loaded gun lying around. I can only imagine the level of stress you're all experiencing. .Dog-aggression and people-aggression are two, very very very different things. Having owned both, I would say dog aggression is much much much easier to work with because you don't have the risk of someone getting hurt and/or sueing you and you can have people come into the house with out worrying whether you dog is going to attack them or not. The training is also easier. My first dog was soo people-aggressive she would bite anyone but me. Basic obedience is important but doesnt work to fix the issue with a people-aggressive dog. Never ever do alpha training with a dog that is people aggressive, it will result in more bites to you and to others. You have to do special training with other people as the Guinea pig and people often won't want to follow special instructions because everyone has their own opinions about things. In general people don't like to listen or pay attention. It is a life long commitment and life long training if you want to keep that dog and even then there is still a risk for a bite. My current hound that i have is extremely dog-aggressive. He is at the point now where he can meet other dogs on a leash, have dogs come over to the house and have new dogs introduced to his pack. before he would try to kill anouther dog if he was anywhere near them. All they need is basic obedience (they have to be 100% obedient) and desensitizing training (being calmly and properly introduced to new dogs). The only thing both have in common is they need to be leashed at all times outside the home, neither really subside completely, you need to learn to read your dogs body language and it poses a risk of both being put to sleep. The dog in question sounds like it maybe fear biting since its deaf and maybe surprised. Which in turn caused the guarding issues with that specific room. |
Quote: Dog-aggression and people-aggression are two, very very very different things. Absolutely. We have options with dogs that are dog-aggressive. With these dogs, we can use physical barriers like doors, gates, muzzles or as a last resort, the dog can be rehomed to a one dog household. Dogs do not need to interact with other dogs but they do need to interact with people. It takes safety requirements and legal liability to a whole different level when there is a human-aggressive dog with a bite history. With both, it's the responsibility of the owner to 100% of the time protect other people and other dogs. It's why I don't think you can wait to bring in a qualified canine behaviorist and also speak with the breeder. I don't think anyone here is truly qualified to provide the level of help you need. |
| If push comes to shove and you can't handle your dogs issues and have to get rid of your dog, there is a very special place where I live that accepts dogs that have been deemed high risk biters. Dog that otherwise would be put to sleep. There is a waiting list so you may have to wait for them to accept your dog but your dog will never ever be put to sleep there but never be adopted out. Your dog will live out the rest of its life there. There motto is "we save dogs you'd rather see dead" http://www.olympicanimalsanctuary.org "Olympic Animal Sanctuary is a nonprofit animal welfare and rescue organization located in Forks, Washington. The bulk of the Sanctuary's resources currently go into the care and rehabilitation of non-adoptable dogs: fighting dogs, street dogs, feral dogs, wolf-dogs and coyote hybrids, dogs that have killed other animals or bitten people" Dogs that are people aggressive are usually never dog aggressive and visa versa. There are exceptions to every rule though. 6girls is right. No one here is qualified to fix your dog. Its all speculation and advice from our own experiences with our own dogs and since none of us have met or know your dog its all just a guess. (I am not associated with Olympic Animal Sanctuary and have never met anyone that works there.) |
| Would love to get an update on this baby! |
| Itchy We just got Jack at the age of 6 years, he's our second OES. Charlie, our first, died 25 years ago, so we've been out of the OES 'loop' for eons. Our Jack came with a "resource guarding" habit, but he doesn't appear to be quite as bad as yours. Once every day or two ... Jack will guard 'something'. Once a wine cork fished out of a basket, frequently a candy wrapper, adrift on the table, or floor. If he picks it up, usually its his. If not, we've had success covering the 'resource' with a towel or jacket, and he forgets about it. After reading all the good posts, I'm left with a puzzling question, no one has mentioned trying a shock collar on their OES? We have a friend who trains hunting dogs, swears by his training collar. He said that after a couple shocks, his dog's bad behavior is controlled by the beep (that precedes the shock) and he has never needed shocking again. scuds |
scudsrus wrote: We have a friend who trains hunting dogs, swears by his training collar. He said that after a couple shocks, his dog's bad behavior is controlled by the beep (that precedes the shock) and he has never needed shocking again. scuds Do you really think a deaf dog could hear the beep? Shock collars are a cruel training method. Scaring/hurting a dog into good behavior is not training. I would rather have a dog with bad behaviors than a dog thats scared of getting shocked. Training methods like this make me sick to my stomach. I really hope you don't use this method with your dog. I also think you need to make new friends. People that hurt their own dogs are friends you do not need. To add: I live in a rural area, where 1 out of ever 10 people own a hunting dog/dogs. Thats where my coonhound mix came from. They used methods like this on him when he wouldn't hunt. Guess what those methods didn't work. The people that had him before me, were going to shoot him because he wouldn't hunt. (that kind of thing happens a lot with of hounds/hunting dogs unfortunately.) |
| Welcome scuds! Congratulations on your "new" sheepie! I'm glad you've found our little furry corner of the web. (Electronic collars are a kind of a controversial issue, so some can be wary of mentioning them as a possible solution.) |
scudsrus wrote: Itchy After reading all the good posts, I'm left with a puzzling question, no one has mentioned trying a shock collar on their OES? We have a friend who trains hunting dogs, swears by his training collar. He said that after a couple shocks, his dog's bad behavior is controlled by the beep (that precedes the shock) and he has never needed shocking again. scuds I don't think a shock collar would work on a flat out aggressive dog but, possibly with resource guarders....never really thought of it before. With resource guarding we do pretty well with a trade out! Yes, btw, welcome! |
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