Crate- for what purpose?
When I started reading around on american sites and petfinder etc. and they talked about cratetraining I had no idea what it was since it is not something we do over here. (well when at competitions and flying- yes) Could someone please explain to me what the real purpose is in a home because I do not get it?   |
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| I guess I'll get it started for you. You will find many posts on this topic. We use a crate as a way to assist with the housebreaking. In our case, Pooh Bear learned that he had to hold it in when he was in the crate otherwise he'd have to deal with "sitting in it" until it was time to come out of the crate. It is not cruel to crate your dog, in fact, most dogs like their crates. Because dogs are den animals, a crate, especially if you cover the top to make it more cozy feeling, is reminiscent of their den roots.
Pooh Bear will walk into his crate while we are home for no apparent reason other than it's a comfy place to nap! Mind you, we no longer use the crate for housebreaking because Pooh is more or less broken, but it's a safe place for him to be during the day when we are at work as he is only 9 months old and can still get into a lot of Puppy trouble! He won't be in there for his whole life. We are starting to work on freedom now. When we are going to be gone for short periods of time he stays out. The first few times he had a bit of a panic that he was out and we were not gone, but now he knows that we will come back. I can not imagine not using the crate for housebreaking. What you must have to clean up! It was much easier to clean up what very few mistakes he made when he was a baby from the crate/playpen than from carpet. Knock on wood, but Pooh has NEVER made on the carpet. |
| Fnissa, we do many things differently here.
Many times we are crate training for safety purposes. Many people go outside the home to work leaving the dog, or puppy, alone for extended periods. Dogs can totally destroy furniture, floors, cabinets, actually almost anything. They can get into dangerous liquids, cleaning supplies, paint, just to name a few things - no matter how well stowed we have a thing. Housetraining is much easier because of the den mentality of dogs. We have many reasons, the great majority are for the benefit of the dog. Shellie (in PA) |
| I have now written in other threads about this but I still do not get how millions of dogowners are capable of safing up the home and make it a nice non chewable nest for the dogs without having to crate them and why one need a crate at all. And the whole thing about the dog having to hold it in or otherwise he will sit in it feels cruel to me. The whole of me cringes when I read it. I would not do something like that to my beloved dogs teaching them that they have to hold it in or otherwise they have to sit in their own excrement. I would not do that to anyone I love, not my children or a human being or any other animal. Would you like to be in cage trying to hold yourself or not getting enough water etc in order to not pee inside or in order to spare the carpets? |
| Shellie.
Ps. Just because you do a lot of things different doesn't make them right? |
| I have had two sheepdogs of my own, and I have fostered one for four months and transported a couple.
My current dog has free roam of the house. He can be anywhere he wants; When Joan is not home, he frequently goes into his crate and sleeps. When we have someone come to the door, he is put into his crate with the door closed, since the crate is right next to the door, where he is jumping around trying to get to the visitor. 
Dogs are den animals, dens are very small and compact areas. Crate training used as a housebreaking technique has shown that dogs know instinctively not to soil their crate. I think this means that they know this is their place. PS Opinions can differ about this, however just because something seems to be wrong to you since it is different from the way you do it, doesn't make it wrong, does it? |
| Hi, I have never crated a dog in my life. I have had three sheepie boys and I have to admit that there seems no need I have had sheepies from rescue already adults and also Dougal from a puppy. A lot of patience running in and out on the hour for toilet training and a firm no for chewing things. Then showing him repeatedly what he could have. when I go out I leave him something I know he will chew that is not any good. It helps because Dougal does not like being told off anyway. luv pepe. But I know I have travelled extensively that people do things differently in other countries. |
| Ron.
"PS Opinions can differ about this, however just because something seems to be wrong to you since it is different from the way you do it, doesn't make it wrong..." I have never said that I am right but when Shellie said: "we do a lot of things different here" it sounded like a argument that for me doesn't say much and then the: "We have many reasons, the great majority are for the benefit of the dog." That was what I was questioning even though I obviously wasn't clear enough. I do not buy it but that doesn't mean that I am telling others what is right and wrong. |
| I do not think crate training is a necessity for everyone but I do believe in some living situations, it can make the adjustment to domesticated living for the dog much easier.
I think the number one thing to stress here is that putting the dog in the crate is not done out of cruelty. It is certainly not appropriate to leave him or her in there for extended periods of time. The point is to provide the dog with a place to call his own. For example, like a child having his own room. A child can stay in his room for hours at a time. It is his place to live in, relax and take care of and, as a parent, you would not encourage your child to destroy his room. Crate training is similar to this. The crate is a place for him to sleep, play with his toys and otherwise stay out of trouble when we can't be there to watch him all the time. I think you are also misunderstanding the idea of "sitting in excrement." It is just like potty training a child. If he or she has an accident, the child only sits in it long enough until the parent can change him. It is uncomfortable for the child and he or she learns not to do that. It isn't a punishment, it's just the way toilet training works. The same goes for the dog. The crate is not a test for the dog to see how long he can hold it, it simply teaches him the appropriate time to go and that behavior will transfer to when he is not in the crate. I look forward to the day when I can trust Clyde enough to leave him out of his crate all the time. I care about him a lot and the crate is for his safety. I have another dog that does have free run of the house and I wouldn't have it any other way for her. No one is trying to argue with you, we're simply trying to help you understand what the reasoning is behind it. You seem to be exhibiting some pretty strong feelings about it so it's only natural that people would want to defend their actions as well. And Shellie is right, people do do things differently in other countries. That is not an argument-- it's the truth! If there were any definitive correct way to train a dog 100% of the time, we'd all be doing the same thing. As long as the dogs are happy and well cared for, that's all that matters in the end, right? |
| Butterstotch.
But I do not think that most dogs are that happy when crated and I cannot understand why using something as a crate when there are millions of other ways to do that is more in line with the dogs natural instincts. The dog see you and your family as the pack and your very home is the nest (as when a stranger approaches the house and the dogs barks; Hey, someones coming to our ...) and if one doesn't want the dog to be in the whole house one can close doors etc. If crated, the dog gets stressed when for example a stranger approaches a house and it is caged and it cannot act from natural ways, it gets stressed when it can sleep next to the pack etc etc etc and from reading post in this cratesection it seems dogs have a lots of other problem with the crate and people have a lot of problems with there carpets.... Then even though I think children and dogs are very similar when it comes to many things a dog needs to be with it's pack and not play by themself in their room so to speak. Yes, dogs have to be able to relax and have a loving spot on there own and so on but one does not need a crate for that. And the I do not get why it seems so many have such problems with dogs destroying stuff. I have never heard of it like this except for a problemdog once in a while so there are millions who doesn't have that problem; can it be the fact that the dog lays in the crate and energy and stress gets accumulated and then..? I am not sure if I misunderstood the excrementthing. "In our case, Pooh Bear learned that he had to hold it in when he was in the crate otherwise he'd have to deal with "sitting in it" until it was time to come out of the crate." If that's not a punishment what is? If you cannot hold yourself you will be caged _IN_ the crate in your poop and pee. I have never heard about this way either and I know that millions of people get there dogs housebroken without this kind of methods. I understand that noone is arguing with me, I am not arguing either even though I think that the argument we do things differently is lame. I am saying what I think and feel and this is very close to my heart; freeing our beloved dogs from human language that messes them up inside. I am fully aware of the fact that it exist many cultures in this world and that that is a truth. I am not saying, by expressing my point of view strongly, that I am right but I am saying that just because a culture do it one way it doesn't have to be right. |
| If you thought I was trying to be smart or angry or mean you missed my meaning all together.
Just a simple explanation Fnissa. That is all I wrote. Your posts on this topic in other threads as well seemed very acusatory to me, and I was only explaining - since you did ask the question! The fact remains we do do many things differently. If you have read this forum you will know that we have members here who have dogs who have eaten through walls, have had to have surgeries and have even died from having gotten into things in the home. I promise you these owners could not have guessed these very common items would prove so interesting and appealing to their dogs. The housetraing issue is really only an extension of the den for a dog. Unless the owner is not allowing the dog to leave the crate to eliminate often enough, I cannot see how this is cruel. You asked a question and I gave a simple answer. There really was no need for you to be offended or defensive. I am sorry you don't understand the concept- and I am sorry you misunderstood me. Shellie (in PA) |
| I too must chime in now since I was quoted! A dog naturally tries not to soil it's living or confined area because contrary to what some non dog owners believe, dogs like to be clean animals. With a young puppy, training them to not soil their surroundings can be accomplished with crate training.
It's teaching the pup the appropriate place to relieve itself-not in the crate. In the case of Pooh Bear, he did soil the crate a few times during housebreaking, but he was just a baby! He was never forced to sit in it. If he was in the crate and I came home and he had made a mistake, besides coming out of the crate anyway, there was never a big deal made about it. He'd come out, we' d clean everything up and continue on. Pooh still to this day, prefers the safety of his crate. In the morning before we go to work, I can simply say "Pooh, crate" and he will go in and lie down. He is never banished to his crate, or forced into the crate. At night, he has a penned area in our bedroom that is right next to the bed. It's about 4x8 and he is more than happy to go in, lie down (he aways nests his blanket) and goes to sleep. We are working on removing this barrier as he is getting older. Please do not think that all of us lock our dogs in the crate and leave them there for hours and hours on end! This is so not the case. The crate, at least for us, is now used if the dog must be home alone. And it will not be this way forever! We now leave Pooh alone in the house for short periods: 15-20 minutes at a time outside of the crate and have started making it longer. But the fact remains that he is still a puppy. We all agree to disagree. I completely respect that you feel that crating a dog is cruel, however, I feel it is the best housebreaking tool around. My last OES was a destructor. Her favorite thing to chew on was wooden chairs, wooden stools, the bottom of kitchen cabinet doors. When she finally caused about $5000 of damage, it was time to crate train, and a few months later, after she got past the teething, the pooping on the tile floor and then having it inadvertently smeared, and the separation anxiety, she was a GREAT dog. That's all I want here. A GREAT domesticated pal. And that he is so far. I wish I could video for you the amount of affection I get when I get home from work. We have 5 minuted of licking my face and trying to sit on my lap on the floor before I am ALLOWED to take him out for a walk. My wife get's a similar greeting at the front door since I am usually home first. Fnissa, you also mentioned that the dog sees us as the pack and the home as a nest--yes, I agree, but a puppy has to be taught not to soil anywhere in the nest. Also, without discipline and training, you end up wit ha dog who thinks he an alpha over his people, and that will not be permitted in my house! |
| We own two sheepies and have fostered a few other in the past at home. We started potty training our first OES with the puppy pad method, but he started causing so much destruction and mischief that we decided to go for the crate training. It's hard in the beginning, because given the social nature of the dogs, they prefer to sleep with you.
With the other dogs we've fostered, we crate them to give them a safe environment and a place where they can feel confident while they learn the rules of the house, then they get free roaming of the house as they become more confident. Our dogs have been very confident about the crate, and Lennon really loves to chill out inside his cage. He goes inside it real quick if you ask him or if we assemble it for him to be alone for a while. I don't see crating a dog more cruel than giving a child a room and ask him to stay there, it's safer for everyone that way and it really does not cause much disconfort as long as you follow some common sense rules, like not letting your dog inside the crate all day, not using it as a punishment and things of that sort. I guess this issue depends on how we want to see it, and we could rant forever about why it's good and why it's bad, as we will both have very strong and correct arguments about each side, but that does not mean that one side is "right" and the other "wrong". All these opinions should be taken in account, and we must choose the method that seems the best for each after weigthing them, just making sure no one is getting hurt or abused in the process. |
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