Dog Park Rant
I swear that we must have been wearing a bullseye today. The most grievous was the 130 lb Husky that tackled Sabrina and 30 lb Anya and scratched her face and growled at and pinned Tigerlily. All this transpired multiple times in full view of the watching owner chatting on her cell phone and at no point intervening or even apolgizing. I snatched Anya up, tunred my back to the lunging dog, deposited her on a bench and repeated the process with Tigerlily. Twice. Really!!  |
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| That's terrible that people don't watch their dogs. When I've had puppies, I would go to a socialiazation facility, they were also a daycare, and boarding/grooming too. Anyways one night a week we'd go and they could play with pups around their own age, then we'd graduate to daycare, and then I mustered enough courage to go to the dog park. Now we love the park, and thankfully I haven't had any problems.
I hope your next trip is better, maybe they won't be there  Your right tho people really do need to pay attention. |
| What is wrong with people? If I took my dogs to a park I sure would keep an eye on them, for their safety as well as other dogs. Cell phones seem to be making people rude and not focused on what they should be doing. I hope your dogs won't be afraid to go back. |
bestdogsx4 wrote: I hope your dogs won't be afraid to go back.
Only Tigerlily is a dog. The others being attacked were my 3 and 8 year old children. |
| I remember the pics of your kids with tigerlilly. How awful for them. I hope they will be able to go back to the bark park without any nightmares. There have been other posts about dogs being roughed at bark parks. Hugs to your girls. Shame on the owners of the malicious dogs. |
| Alinamarie-
Sorry, I meant dog, not dogs. I hope the other people taking their dogs to the park pay more attention than that women. Is there someone in charge at the park you could talk to? Maybe that dog shouldn't be allowed back. |
| To be a little lax in stopping dog play is one thing but not attending to a dog that touched your kids is ridiculous. Today, and I never thought it would happen, Clyde got really scared of a dog at the dog park that was trying to play way too aggressively with him. I don't think he meant to hurt Clyde but he was an adult pit mix and pretty strong. The owner immediately ran over and got him and we watched them together and decided since Clyde was still scared, to just separate to opposite ends of the park so our dogs were happy. No problem, everybody's happy. I don't understand why everyone doesn't think like that.
Even though Clyde is just a puppy, I watch him like a hawk and immediately stop him from jumping on people or trying to herd kids at the park. It's much easier to avoid an accident than have to make apologies later-- especially since it's no fault of the dog, but the owner! |
| I agree that when a dog is at a dog park they must be watched at all times and although fun to do it's not socializing for the people. It's easy to get in conversations with others but one should never take their eyes off their dogs.
When I first brought Merlin at 11 wks...he was constantly kiyaaaaing back to me but I ignored it. Because I was watching and knew dogs rarely attack pups but discipline them, it was teaching him doggies social behavior. We all know little pups love to grab other dogs ears or do inappropriate things. The dogs were reacting normally and Merlin the baby he still was, went crying over to mommy. Ignoring him was teaching him to deal with it..picking him up would have possibly turned him into a very fearful dog. If I saw he wasn't hurt I would not interfere. If he yelped and I could tell the difference just as his mom would do I would go to investigate. Dogs have a code of law in which most abide by, male dogs rarely attack females and dogs generally never attack a young pup. Some dogs like people break that code and it's up to the owner to be responsible to immediately stop it. A pup that is around 7 months generally has the most difficult time at a dog park as he's coming into his own. No longer is he/she very young that he/she is offlimits...but the dogs just emerging into their teens will try to make that dog insubordinate. Their status at the dog park is precarious and so hense they try to put the other dogs that are younger in their place. The difference between a well socialized dog and an aggressive one is how they play by the rules. The dominate dog may still show teeth or snarl and even make the submissive one go belly up. However, once the other dog has shown "respect" in this manner to the dominate dog he leaves them alone. There will be no further problems if he's well socialized. In fact from that moment on, every single time you visit the dog park if a dog has shown tail down to the other dog they have acknowledged that he/she is the boss of them. Both Merlin and Panda were made to show the belly up to Bear the most dominant dog at the park and he never attacked them. However, by their body stance I could tell that they showed him respect each time he approached and he never had to challenge them again. It is really hard to watch but they are going by their rules and not people rules so in their world they do this naturally. If a dog is aggressive it's different and he will repeatedly attack even if the other dog has shown tail down or belly up. He/she doesn't care and will attack. This kind of dog is dangerous as it's like kicking a man when he's down and they don't play fair. This is the dog I'd be most concerned with. Tails are a great indicator as to how the dog is letting the others know. If a dog approaches yours with a tail up...Be careful!!!! It's giving the signal of I want to fight and be boss! It's a shame what happened to you at the dog park as I've mentioned on another post ..some ruin it for others. Every dog owner should be responsible and always keep an eye on what their dog is doing. Correct him/her asap if they are playing too rough...as that's how they will learn. I hope you get a chance to go again and not let one person ruin it for you. Tigerlily would benefit so much from the interaction with other dogs. Hopefully that insensitive owner won't be there. Marianne and the boys |
| Marianne, all excellent points which lead to..when should you intervene for your dog as the victim or the aggressor?
I worry about the weight of these large dogs with the puppy when they are swatting and pinning with the paws. I also worry about the nails around the eyes. I know I sound like a mom; we run through all the danger scenarios sub-conciuosly in our heads. Just can't help it. That said, Tigerlily kept swatting at a corgi puppy during our puppy kindergarden class. I kept distracting her away with a treat. Again, when to intervene? I also think I need to avoid bringing little Anya. She seems to wear a huge "Tackle Me" sign in neon flashing lights. |
| At our dog park, they discourage bringing small children. I will bring Joey and Ashlan, but only if there are very few people. I also prevent either child from running or screaming, which can confuse the dog. I have noticed for the most part, that Jack and Annie stay with each other and with us. They are happy to just run with each other and be able to play fetch at long distance's. And for the occasional jump in the pond. We now know to always bring lots of blankets to cover EVERYTHING in the van for the wet, muddy sheepies. LOL
I am sorry you had such a rough time. I hope the next time is easier and more enjoyable. For now, if you have a petsmart or petco around, it may be easier while Tigerlily is still small. She will still get socialized with other dogs and people that way, and when she is a bit bigger it might not be so scary. I know, as I am a worry wart in all situations when it comes to my kids or furry kids. Good luck and let us know how it goes the next time. 
Stormi and co. |
| Hi,
That's such a hard question and I never know how to answer that, as each dog reacts differently to play. Some dogs are more sensitive to other dogs barking or pawing and will not enjoy themselves. So who should stop their dog? The one with the more submissive dog or the rambunctious one? The rambunctious one may be also playing but not be doing so aggressively. I have such a tough time with this personally and if it were me and my dog was the rambunctious one I would either distract with a ball or hold my dog for a while soas the other dog could have some fun time too. I think it's all a matter of playing fair. One time at the park there was a dog that would stop each time Merlin chased him and appreared to be intimidated. Although Merlin wasn't doing anything bad I kept him with me - grooming and petting him so as he wouldn't think he was given a time out. The other owner let her dog play for 15 mins and then I let Merlin go. She thanked me. I find most of the time people can deal with situations very well once they get to know each other and that goes for the dogs too. One owner brought her dog Dooley to the park daily, and for some reason Merlin chose this dog to stand close behind and bark continuously. To the point where I was feeling flustered as he never did this with other dogs. I tried different methods to get Merlin to stop barking so much with this particular dog. The owner became my good friend as we developed a friendship from seeing each other daily and told me not to worry. One day Dooley whom was very docile and ball oriented turned around and went after Merlin, putting him in his place. We bought thought it was a good thing that occurred as it was if the dog was saying "Stop, I've had enough!". Sure enough, Merlin no longer went right behind Dooley waiting for his ball to be thrown but would run backwards and stand aprox 10 ft away. He was never interested in Dooley's ball or others, just chasing the dog that chased balls. They continued to do this for the following year and appeared to like the game. Merlin learned to keep his distance. While that wasn't advice necessarily I find speaking with other owners and informing them of sheepie ways of play helps them to understand. Sheepies love to chase things that are chasing other things like balls, they love rounding up other dogs, they bark when exicited about play. Some dogs are very tolerant of this behaviour while others don't like it. I think the happy medium is to watch the other dogs and if you notice that your dog is playing too rough to interfere. Hopefully if it were a perfect world than the other owner would do the same thing. Sadly, that's not always the case. Being a regular at a dog park is really helpful as people become familiar with your dog and how it plays and are much more tolerant. The first couple visits may be difficult for a new dog as they have to establish where they are in the heirachy of the regular dogs that visit. It becomes easier each visit. I also find that when you visit regularly and people know your dog they will often come to your defence. A case in example, is one of the friendliest dogs at the park, a big fellow named Jethro. Just like his namesake he's a bumbling friendly dog that is only interested in play. A new person arrived one day and the woman started screaming at Jethro's owner...your dog is biting mine on the neck..get him!! The regulars explained that this was his way of playing and in no way aggressive. People seem to be willing to listen more if it's coming from someone who's a bystander rather than if it's their dog. Saying all that, owners must be responsible for always being aware of interactions with their dogs. Ironcially after the incident with "strange guy" Merlin started teen behavior and was becoming bossy. I had taken him daily to the park since he was 11 wks so he knew all the dogs well and was always well behaved. When he started his bossy period which is just like a human teen and is going through a testing stage I stopped bringing him to the park. Focusing instead on more obedience and once he settles down again I will bring him back. Blue never goes to the dog park as he's too ball posessive and wouldn't do well there as balls are kinda fair game to all dogs at a offleash dog park. Still it's polite to try to retrieve the other dogs ball if your dog has taken it. Panda whom is very docile and doesn't care if another dog goes after his ball is the one I continue to bring. Overall, I evaluate how each dog is able to handle it. As I said if it was a perfect world people would be kind and considerate to the others there. Sadly, people get very upset if they think you are criticizing their dog. It does help if they know you and overtime people are much more willing to listen if you have exchanged pleasantries with them previously. I wish I could give you better answers as to what to expect and wish it were like a children's playground where people don't complain as much about how different children play. That was much easier than a dog park. 
Marianne and the boys |
| Thank you, Marianne!
I found this topic while Googling "dominant male dog park", because I'd just come from an upsetting incident at the dog park with my 2-year-old male Golden Retriever. We had only been there a short while, and he was full of energy after being cooped up in the house all day. Even at age two, he's still very much a puppy in the head--still in that obnoxious teen phase where he needs to prove himself with younger pups. So he was doing his usual chasing around, body slamming, wrestling, and the like with dogs that were mostly chasing balls or milling idly around. To make matters worse, someone brought an injured dog to the park who was wearing an inflatable donut around its neck. Despite the injury, the dog was full of energy, so naturally my dog was attracted to play with it--and he had no idea, of course, that the donut wasn't a handy grab-toy. I called him off every time I saw him start to play with this dog--as I would any dog that had a physical liability--but the fact that my dog had been mouthy over the donut made him appear to be a troublemaker. There was a fairly large, relatively dense crowd standing around at the park this evening. I bent down to pick up a ball, and when I looked for my dog again, I found him just in time to see a guy grab him roughly by the collar and pull him off his dog. I heard him say something about "gonna beat you" and "not as nice as the other people here." It was one of those moments where you wonder, "Did I just hear someone say he was going to beat my dog?" Surely not. I was a few yards away. Maybe I heard him wrong, or he was just joking or something. So I let it drop. I never even saw what dog mine had been playing with--it happened that fast. A little while later, my dog went back into the crowd again, and this time I could see what had attracted him. It was a 3-4 month old Lab. My Golden wrestled him down and had him on his back, doing the usual restrained nipping thing--but at no time was the puppy ever in danger, nor did he even make a yip. There was hardly a chance, really--we're talking maybe 10 seconds of play. Next thing I knew, I saw this man kick my dog! I was absolutely furious. I went over to him and said, "Don't you kick my dog! Don't you EVER kick my dog!" I really got in his face, and he got back in mine, claiming that my dog was "aggressive" and "unsocialized" and "didn't belong at a dog park." I insisted that my dog was only playing, and that's how dogs play, but he refused to listen. I was close to calling the cops on the guy, but we both simmered down and just kept our distance the rest of the time. My dog has been this way ever since I got him five months ago. I pull him away if the other dog is so small that the weight mismatch could be dangerous, but unless they start yelping, I let my dog play the way his instincts tell him to play. The hardest part about all this is dealing with owners who don't understand the pack order and try to assign human motivations to everything the dogs are doing. Thus, my dog becomes a "bully," when he's just a teenage male asserting his role over the youngsters. It's difficult with Goldens, because they mature physically at two and mentally at three, so I have a few more months of this to endure. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for your post, Marianne (even though I know this is months after you originally posted!). It really helped me understand why my dog is so fond of molesting puppies! Now I can explain it to other owners--provided they give me a chance before beating up my dog.  |
| Hi Devon,
Welcome to the boards and glad I could be of some help. While it may not help you with the other owners you'll feel better being able to chat about it in here and we can sympathize. How awful of that guy to kick your dog!! I sometimes wish all dog parks supplied a trainer on hand to explain doggie behavior to people. Would make it much easier wouldn't it? Hope you and your boy get a chance to enjoy the park again and have better experiences. Marianne and the boys |
| I'm not sure I'd be very comfortable with a very rambunctious dog all over my more calm guy either. But I wouldn't kick someone's dog. |
| Thanks, Marianne.
I must say in the six months I've been taking my dog to off-leash parks (sometimes twice a day), I'd never seen anything like that. In retrospect, I suspect the guy that kicked my dog may well be abusive in other areas of life. It's just so rare to see an inhumane act at a dog park that it really threw me for a loop. I haven't been back to that same dog park since the incident (more because of weather and lack of opportunity than anything else). But I did visit a different one this morning, and my faith in dog owners was restored. The people there totally get what's going on when a young male dog (any dog, not just mine) badgers a younger one to get it to submit. I think we owe it to our dogs to let them sort out the pack order amongst themselves--and to be vigilant and ready to step in if we see it escalating to the point of a fight or injury. You have a great forum here. I've met a few old English sheepdogs at the parks, and I've always been impressed at the breed. Very fun-loving and social dogs, from what I've seen. |
| Devon -- welcome! You don't need a sheepie to be a member!
Anyway, while we're on the subject, the other night at my park, I was chatting with a lady who had recently adopted a very small cavalier king charles spaniel. She was maybe a few months old and very tiny. But she had her in the "all dogs" portion of the park. We have a separate area for small dogs. While I was watching, one of the regulars (maybe some kind of shepherd mix, 40-50 pounds) came over and went to sniff the puppy, who then sort of tumbled over. The lady screamed like someone was being murdered, picked up her puppy and rushed away. Then she put the puppy down and the dog wandered over again for a sniff. Again, another high pitched scream and she rushed to grab her puppy. I tried to explain to her that the big dog hadn't done anything wrong or shown any aggression and that maybe with time, she would start to see how they operate). She rushed out of the park and according to two friends who were coming in, as she raced to her car, she told them that her dog had been vicously attacked twice. Crazy. |
Marianne, you are so wise... I'm glad I found your post. 
We don't have any dog parks in my town but I remember going to my very first puppy class with my Border Collie-mix that we adopted from the local Humane Society. I was appauled by how rough they played with each other and how they kept trying to hump her.  The trainer said this was normal dog behavior. (None of the dogs were mean... they just played hard.)
Many people simply don't understand how dogs behave with other dogs. Many have just one dog and going to a dog park must be a real eye opener. I myself was coming from a two dog household where one dog was dog aggressive so I was too protective. I have to laugh at myself when I look back since I now having 6. I agree, it's too bad parks don't have a trainer as a referee and able to explain the behavior to those who simply don't understand. |
| Personally I think that a puppy should be very carefully watched. It is fine for an adult dog to "explain" the rule so being rude etc, but to let a young impresionable puppy loose amoungst a bunch of dogs that may not really be that great in doggie social activity is not being fair to the pup.
I NEVER let any dog be pushy and scare my Bosley boy as he was developing. I took him to dog parks but watched him so closely and if there was any chance of him being bullied or scared I removed him. Young pups need to be exposed to mature dogs who will teach the ways of the doggie world gently, but definitely not be told off or dominated by rude, bossy, bullying dogs who are not well socialized themselves. It is not accpetable for a strange dog to immediately "tell off"a puppy, or any dog. A young pup who is not properly exposed to the right adult dogs could be tramatized and affected in a negative way for life. Throwing a puppy into a group of strange dogs is asking for trouble. |
6Girls wrote: Many people simply don't understand how dogs behave with other dogs. Many have just one dog and going to a dog park must be a real eye opener. I myself was coming from a two dog household where one dog was dog aggressive so I was too protective. I have to laugh at myself when I look back since I now having 6. I agree, it's too bad parks don't have a trainer as a referee and able to explain the behavior to those who simply don't understand.
Lol. This really hit home because I took my sister with me for her first trip ever to a dog park. Talk about freaking out! She was sure Bear and Clyde were killing the other dogs. There is one dog in particular that Bear likes to bite in the butt-- something he regularly likes to do to Clyde but Clyde is about 80 pounds heavier than this poor little guy at the park. But, the owner is really cool, understands that Bear is very young but huge so she works with me while we supervise our dogs playing. When Bear gets to be too much, the little dog runs to his mom and I walk Bear a few feet away, sit him down and let him calm down. The dog's owner was great but my sister kept grabbing Clyde or Bear saying, "Jill, make them stop, they're going to hurt the other dog." The dog's owner kept telling her that the dog was fine and we'd step in if anything got rough but my sister couldn't handle it. She looked so nervous, we finally had to leave because I thought she was going to explode. |
| It is such a balancing act between being attentive and being overprotective/underprotective.
Last night, a new dog was eager to play with Maggie and was pretty insistently grabbing her ear, her neck, her butt. Maggie looked annoyed and like she wanted to get away from her. At one point, the dog was pulling Maggie by her neck skin so I went to intervene and asked the owner to watch her dog. The woman owner was nice but the guy seemed miffed. Well, we kept a careful eye on them, distracting them and/or interfering when their dog seemed too insistent. They became interested in other things and separated. By the end of the night, they were playing great together, chasing, wrestling and teaming up on other dogs. It really worked out well because both the woman owner and I were willing to supervise and intervene without freaking out or picking fights. Now Maggie has a new girl friend. Most of her friends are boys. She's just that kind of girl. A tomboy. . |
hehehe 
Yup... I was so nervous too. BUT I can understand her fear because I have been there.
You never want your dog or another to be a bully but dogs often play rough when you get the right two dogs together and they know the limits of proper play. Emma and Darby are a riot to watch sometimes... they have their own special sister handshake or something. http://www.pomeroys.com/EmmaDarby/Page66.htm They'll be a couple of inches way from each other's faces and snap, snap, snap at the each other (never biting but more like back talking although there's no barking or growling). Then they take off running around the yard 'til Emma tackles Darby and she's slide across the ground. Emma has her on the ground as they rest then they're back up and running again. Maybe they pick up one of the Jolly Balls and run around with it together then try to pull it way from the other one. If Emma won't chase her, Darby will sometimes give her a nip in the butt to get the chase going. They don't play this way or this rough with the others... they seem to feel there are limits with them. Maybe it's just the way littermates that have been together forever play? |
| Jaclin -- that is so cute! That's exactly what it is like with Maggie and her favorite friends from the park -- especially husky Lou (also known as boyfriend Lou and Sheriff Lou). It is such a riot watching them play that Lou's owner and I just stand there oohing and ahhhing and laughing at them. At this point, I can tell Maggie "go get Lou!" and she runs over, bites his butt, and the fun begins.
I have no idea why they hit it off so well, but it is a joy to behold. In fact, Lou was a very shy and reserved dog when we first met him but after months of playing with Maggie, he has expanded his horizons to play with several other dogs too. It is like he is coming into his own. Go Lou! |
| Yes! Isn't it neat how certain dogs can bring out the fun? It sounds like Lou and Maggie are wonderful playmates. Certain dogs can help other dogs relax and can "teach" them how to play again or bring them out of their shell. Emma and Darby did this with Maggie my BC-mix.
It's so hard when there is only one dog in the "family" unless mom and dad make an effort to get them out with other dogs on a regular basis and give them good experiences to build on. We did it completely wrong with our first dog and she was not very well balanced. She would attack our Maggie even when she was in a submissive position... our vet said he had never seen such an alpha personality in a spayed female. But I feel it was our fault because we didn't socialize her with other dogs from an early age... we just didn't know any better. 
Mine don't get out with other dogs very often so I'm not sure about their behavior outside the pack. We've had a few over to play and they did fine... except Emma and Darby (if out together) try to herd them. I might be the one told to go home because of misbehavin' brats |
| Devon,
You have much more self control than I would have - I think I would have drop kicked the jerk hehe. Momo has the same "looks like a bully" sort of thing going on with her - she doesn't understand that not everyone likes to be chased or have her in their face 24/7. She sometimes makes it impossible for other dogs to run around and have fun because she'll run around and block them.
Something that really helped me though was to baby-sit my teacher's dog for a month. At first I thought her dog was bullying my dog - but he was just telling her "HEY! Stop it! I don't like you getting in my face all the time!" She has really calmed down a lot and isn't in other dogs faces all the time except for a quick lick maybe. If you have a friend with an alpha/older dog see if they'll let your dog spend some time with him or her. It really helped Momo stop being such a twerp! |
| Thanks for all the great responses, everybody!
Integra, re: self-control... It never occurred to me to hit or kick the guy, but it seemed instinctive to brandish my Chuck-It like sword when I approached him. At one point, I had it resting on his chest under his chin.
Never anger a pre-menopausal woman with a Chuck-It in her hand. This afternoon at the dog park, my Golden met a GSD/Husky mix that was a great match for him--another adolescent male who likes to chase and tackle. The other dog got mine onto his back several times, which was really good to see. Even though I know my dog isn't aggressive, I like to see him submit to a more dominant dog and know that he won't press his dominance to the point of a fight. The other dog's owner was nervous at how rough her dog was playing with mine, but I assured her that not only could my dog handle it--he liked it. She was equally glad to find an owner who "got" what her dog was about and wouldn't freak at the roughhousing. |
Devon wrote: This afternoon at the dog park, my Golden met a GSD/Husky mix that was a great match for him--another adolescent male who likes to chase and tackle. The other dog got mine onto his back several times, which was really good to see. Even though I know my dog isn't aggressive, I like to see him submit to a more dominant dog and know that he won't press his dominance to the point of a fight.
The other dog's owner was nervous at how rough her dog was playing with mine, but I assured her that not only could my dog handle it--he liked it. She was equally glad to find an owner who "got" what her dog was about and wouldn't freak at the roughhousing. That's great that your pup has a friend to rough around with. I think that's how I felt when Momo started hanging out with the other dog. Of course the owner wasn't around to be upset, but I think it really taught her a lesson. I think she would do great with another dog, she just wants someone to play with. I feel sorta bad that we will be moving her away from Isabella, she really loves playing with my mom's Chiuahua, and will even share her bed and toys with her.
I wish more people would be like you, and NOT freak out about dogs roughing around. |
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