SHOW QUESTION???????
I have always wondered about this..don't know why it took me so long to ask! If anyone would know...it would be one of you!  |
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| In UKC they can. They have an "altered" class. In AKC not as a rule. I'm thinking there is some exceptions, but having a Jr show an altered dog is the only one that comes to mind right off the top of my head (in the Jr's class, where they are really judging the Jr handler, not the dog). |
| Okay... this will sound absurd but... what if a male was given noodicle implants... do you think he could show in AKC? |
| er, what are noodicle implants??? |
Baba wrote: er, what are noodicle implants??? They're testicular implants; manufactured so that an owner can neuter his/her dog but still have the intact look. If you are a fan of Penn & Teller's BS, showtime show, they did an episode with the creator of the noodicle... he was kinda creepy. |
huh, there are some things I learn about, which I'm not sure I'm glad I learned about  |
They are called neuticles - testicular implants for neutered pets.  Here's the link - and yes, they are very odd! http://www.neuticles.com/ |
got sheep wrote: They are called neuticles - testicular implants for neutered pets. Here's the link - and yes, they are very odd! http://www.neuticles.com/ Ah, that's right. Did you see they are also offering prosthetic eyes and ear implants? |
| But certainly a dog with fakies wouldn't be able to show~~~ correct???? |
| A neutered or spayed dog can be shown in the veteran class at an AKC independent, freestanding specialty as long as they have earned their AKC Ch. Occasionally, AKC kennel clubs will have a class for veterans at their regular shows. I have seen where they print that altered dogs & bitches are allowed to be entered in the veteran's class. But I don't know if they can go any further than winning that particular class. |
| I've often wondered why fixed dogs don't have a class they can be shown in. Doesn't seem fair. |
CamVal1 wrote: I've often wondered why fixed dogs don't have a class they can be shown in. Doesn't seem fair. Well, mainly because dog shows were originally started for comparison of breeding stock a long time ago. Hence, an altered dog couldn't produce anything. So if they happened to win best of breed, go on to win a group 1 & then also Best in Show you would have a dog that no one could use in breeding. Now that's not to say that all dogs entered in dog shows (conformation) are used in breeding programs. But "Way Back When" this was the original reason for the shows. Specialties are different (veteran's class) because you are showcasing 1 breed & there is NO Best in Show. Just Best in Specialty. Still a good place to look over possible breeding stock but you wouldn't most likely be looking for it in the veteran class.  |
CamVal1 wrote: I've often wondered why fixed dogs don't have a class they can be shown in. Doesn't seem fair. This answers both the neuticles and your question: the reason these classes aren't typically offered is because, traditionally, the purpose of dog shows was to evaluate the quality of the dog for breeding stock-- proving that a dog conforms to the standard of its breed and should/can be used to better the breed. Since an altered dog can't do that, it isn't something that's offered. It's way too time consuming, expensive and sometimes annoyingly political to do just for an occasional exhibit and there wouldn't be enough participants in each breed to make it worth anyone's time, judge or exhibitor. Altering your dog also means altering its hormones. These hormones are responsible for the closing of plates between the dogs bones (growth plates). When you spay or neuter, this closing of the plates is delayed. You end up with a dog that it *slightly* taller than if you had left the animal intact. The dog no longer fits the breed standard, and therefore, isn't suitable to show. If it did compete against the other classes, it would likely never win, making it pretty not fun to bother participating. After age 7, a neutered veteran dog can sometimes be shown. I think there are special circumstances and I think it depends on the club. |
ButtersStotch wrote: CamVal1 wrote: I've often wondered why fixed dogs don't have a class they can be shown in. Doesn't seem fair. This answers both the neuticles and your question: the reason these classes aren't typically offered is because, traditionally, the purpose of dog shows was to evaluate the quality of the dog for breeding stock-- proving that a dog conforms to the standard of its breed and should/can be used to better the breed. Since an altered dog can't do that, it isn't something that's offered. It's way too time consuming, expensive and sometimes annoyingly political to do just for an occasional exhibit and there wouldn't be enough participants in each breed to make it worth anyone's time, judge or exhibitor. Altering your dog also means altering its hormones. These hormones are responsible for the closing of plates between the dogs bones (growth plates). When you spay or neuter, this closing of the plates is delayed. You end up with a dog that it *slightly* taller than if you had left the animal intact. The dog no longer fits the breed standard, and therefore, isn't suitable to show. If it did compete against the other classes, it would likely never win, making it pretty not fun to bother participating. After age 7, a neutered veteran dog can sometimes be shown. I think there are special circumstances and I think it depends on the club. Jill: Most of what you stated is correct. But neutering a dog or spaying a bitch after fully matured does not affect the growth plates. Example is Mariah. Now if a dog is altered at a young age, what you stated does happen. I have seen this amongst littermates where some have been altered as young dogs & others either not altered or altered after maturity. But the fact remains that the original purpose of dog shows was to evaulate breeding stock. Nowadays, showing in the veterans class at a stand alone specialty where being altered is permitted, is primarily done because you have a nice finished champion that has aged gracefully, they really like the show ring & you want others in the breed to see how well your breedings are holding up as they age. There is also the competive aspect of showing against other veterans. |
| Oops, I'm sorry, I actually deleted the "young" part by accident when I was editing. That was in my original post and, you're right, it drastically changes the meaning! |
ButtersStotch wrote: Oops, I'm sorry, I actually deleted the "young" part by accident when I was editing. That was in my original post and, you're right, it drastically changes the meaning! I knew you were smarter than that! (one of your mentors, sighing relief!)  |
| Here at specialties only is a seperate neuter class but they cant compete in ordinary classes or be awarded best of breed or dog or bitch challenge. Veterans if they are neutered can be shown in veteran classes, 8-10 years old and 10+ but again they cant compete in ordinary classes and be awarded best of breed or dog or bitch challenge. |
Baba wrote: huh, there are some things I learn about, which I'm not sure I'm glad I learned about Me too David!!  |
| it is too bad that they don't have special classes for neutered dogs. They have them for Freisian horses and it allows the breed registry to track the quality of the off spring for a particular line. If a stud is throwing a lot of foals with good quality gaits and conformation it can be tracked and then those looking for breeding stock or offspring have a better idea of what they are getting. There have even been cases where an approved stud was taken off the list when the quality of the offspring was shown to decline. It is all done in the hopes of saving the Freisian horse which was nearly extinct, and maintaining a good gene pool and quality offspring. After reading the post about the "shaking syndrome" and temperament issues from a line of oes it seems like tracking offspring for that sort of thing and making it public would be a good thing. Plus don't the entry fees go in part to the AKC or club organizing the shows. I am sure both would like to have the extra money for education, etc. |
| Gail...this is exactly what I was thinking. I know the AKC is trying to generate more revenue evident, now, by accepting mixed breeds in performance. If they would start a separate 'class' for neutered/spayed pure breds for tracking purposes adding to the Health and Research and to the 'parents' soundness.. Oh!!! Kristine???? Is this something you would be interested in taking over???? I know you are a go-getter kind of gerl!!! |
| I would definitely think that the clubs and AKC would be interested in this. The AKC equalivent for the Freisian horse is FHANA in the states. All the stats for the studs are listed on line so that when you want to breed your mare it will actually give you a in-breeding analysis of the lines of both horses to improve the genetics. The site also shows how the studs did in conformation, gaits and lists all the awards ie draft (which is pulling), dressage (riding) and driving. All offspring can be presented for judging which is a national thing and they are grades on conformation and gaits. Same goes for those who have been gelded and those breeding and not breeding. It all goes back to the organization and they compile the stats so that no matter where in the country the offspring of a stud line goes, they can track how the offspring are doing in competitions of conformation or ie agility, rally etc for dogs. Studs with proven track records are more desired and can ask for higher stud fees. I know the fees I pay to show my gelding really add up but I love to show him. the fact that it is also helping his sire and mom is an extra bonus. I wish that they had more shows to recognize them and I am sure that there are a lot of people out there with rescue puppers like my Bella that would like the chance to show even if is against other spayed females or males. Just to get out there and to show her off is half the fun. |
sheepieshake wrote: Oh!!! Kristine???? Is this something you would be interested in taking over???? I know you are a go-getter kind of gerl!!! <SNICKER> I'm so busy I think my get up and go got up and went! That said, what I found interesting is at a springer specialty I noticed they had something like a Gun Dog class or...? (I probably dis-remember the exact wording). I don't know if these dogs can be altered or, if so, if they can compete for BOB etc. I think they need to be intact. IN any event, it got me thinking that at specialties we could CONCEIVABLY - offer something like maybe a Working Dog NON-REGULAR class. Dogs could, if rules so stipulated, be altered and not need to have a conformation title but would need to have an AKC herding title. I think in our breed test OR trial would be aceptable. Now, they would not be eligible for breed or winners (think points). But I think it would be interesting feedback for people who have a dog they're working with (hopefully) to perhaps get some idea how well they stack up to the standard. Or, probably more to the point, just show them off The other thing I've tossed around in my mind is expanding the Most Versatile Performance OES competition to a Most Versatile OES Competition and adding a breed component. There are many different ways to approach this, nothing set in my mind at this point. My argument against it when the suggestion first came up is that all kinds of OES do performance, from former national specialty winners to rescue dogs who didn't exactly get a good start on life etc etc etc. Is it fair to stack one up against the other in the breed ring? An OPTION could be to maintain the performance aspect of things and offer non-regular classes (split into dogs/bitches?) where HANDLING is judged, not the dog's conformation. Sort of like Junior Handling. Absolutely nothing set at this point in time. Just snippets of ideas that have been floated, very much pie in the ski at the moment, but you never know! So suggest those of you who are going to the national in September consider attending the handling seminar that's being offered just in case....  Kristine |
| I just don't think it would catch on. Tracking altered dogs in the conformation ring really wouldn't do a heck of a lot because people own dogs for different reasons than horses and most normal people with pets don't come out just to stake out dogs the same way you might with a horse. I can see since horses have smaller births and are more of an investment, you might benefit from extra information but, with the dogs, there's a lot of them and a lot of breeding so it's really up to the individual breeders' breeding programs to better the breed to the standard. I think if people would like to show altered dogs, it would be more beneficial and more fun to actually have separate shows for altered dogs. Or, as someone mentioned, just to compete against other spayed and neutered dogs for fun or even as practice for real showing later. At the same time, I meet so many people that say "My breeder said this dog was so nice he could have been shown," and you know that dog is not a show dog. I think it could be very eye opening for people to take what they thought was a show quality dog into the ring and find out that any BYB can tell you they sold you a show quality dog but then you'll find out the truth about how Old English Sheepdogish your Old English Sheepdog really is. That's not to say you don't have a great, adorable dog but it just isn't a great representative of the breed and may not have qualities that you would want to continue to better the breed. So, for educational purposes, so people just starting out could better understand the breed/breed standard, that might not be bad at all. |
| I again agree with ALL you have said, Gail. I too would love to show Heart in conformation for the fun of it! And to help my breeder as well. I know, with the joint testing I did on her at 2 yrs old. and with her skills in Rally~~Obedience and hopefully, Agility in the near future, she can be judged with the best of them,,,,she is just 'missing' a couple of tiny things  that do not effect her appearance and temperament.  |
sheepieshake wrote: I again agree with ALL you have said, Gail. I too would love to show Heart in conformation for the fun of it! And to help my breeder as well. I know, with the joint testing I did on her at 2 yrs old. and with her skills in Rally~~Obedience and hopefully, Agility in the near future, she can be judged with the best of them,,,,she is just 'missing' a couple of tiny things that do not effect her appearance and temperament. Hon, they are ALL missing something. The perfect dog hasn't been born yet. She's a very nice little bitch. KB |
| In the cat show world you can show a neutered/spayed purebred cat. They compete in their own category called Premier and it is the exact same classes as you would show a whole cat in (i.e. novice, open, champion, grand champion). There is a best of breed and a best in show (premiership). You earn championships and grand championships just like you would with a whole cat. And, by the way, competition is every bit as fierce as in the whole cat class. I think the idea of being able to show a neutered/spayed cat is great. I often show a whole cat along with a premier. I had a beautiful male that I had to neuter because of urinary tract issues and I continued to show him in premier class. I did not want to breed him, because of the UT issue, but he was still a credit to the breed and deserved to be recognized. I think it is a way of recognizing cats that are good representatives of the breed, but for various reasons including, genetics, health traits/issues, spraying, etc have been neutered/spayed. Just my thoughts. Kathie |
| I think some are making it more complicated then it needs to be. There doesn't need to be a reason to have a show. Just a bunch of regular folks who want to show off their dog. Maybe take a ribbon home. Like a car show. I take my car there, I polish it up, and sit there. If I win, I get a cheezy 3 dollar trophy. The fact that I won (or lost) does nothing for the value or status of my car. I did it because it's just fun. It should be like this for a fixed dog show. Just show up with your dog, trot him around a bit, display him/her for awhile, and maybe you get a ribbon. Doesn't NEED to say anything about the pedigree or stock of the dog or anything like that. Doesn't need to say or mean anything. Nor does it diminish the traditional shows (the people that each type of show would draw would probably be vastly different). No points. No championships. None of that stuff. Just that you have a nice dog. And some are citing history. Well, ya know what? Things change. What was appropriate 100 years ago probably isn't today. No need to fear change. The AKC could tap into a HUGE revenue stream if they would allow this type of show. Seems like it could be a much more laid back affair where owners and spectators would mingle more and share good times more freely. |
| Mark, they sort of do. It's called a match though, not a show. Ribbons and rings and trotting included. And you can always have unsanctioned fun matches that you just put on for yourselves or a greater audience for that matter. Reminds me - the Chicagoland OES Club is doing a really neat thing, I think next month, related to explaining how shows work. I need to get the details on that - unless someone has the information handy? KB |
Mad Dog wrote: Mark, they sort of do. It's called a match though, not a show. Ribbons and rings and trotting included. And you can always have unsanctioned fun matches that you just put on for yourselves or a greater audience for that matter. Reminds me - the Chicagoland OES Club is doing a really neat thing, I think next month, related to explaining how shows work. I need to get the details on that - unless someone has the information handy? KB See, that's what I'm talking about. I'd love to bring Brick to an unsanctioned fun match. He may not be show quality, but he's a pretty good looking 'dale. |
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