Remote training collar
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| I haven't used one. Have seen them used successfully. WOuld consider using one if there was a reason. |
| Many people know of our plight from two years ago that sent us along the remote collar route. It really changed our lives for the better. But I HIGHLY recommend doing this with a certified trainer. There are several kinds of remote collars. You don't want a traditional shock collar; that trains with a negative feedback method. You may as well beat your dog when they are bad. The collars we use have a tens unit on them; which is what chiropractors use on patients to stimulate muscles. VERY different from the cattle prod type of shocks some collars deliver. Seriously; before you buy a collar or sign up with a trainer, put the collar in your hand and use it on yourself. If it hurts you, or shocks you, I wouldn't use that collar or that trainer with your dog. My motto is if I wouldn't do it to myself, I'm not going to do it to my dogs. Also; every dog responds differently to this training, like any method of training. A certified trainer is going to help you to customize the training to your needs and your dogs response. An example; the collar system I have works at levels of 1-100. My trainer said anything over 60 COULD hurt my dog, and never to use it. If I just bought the collars and strapped them on, I'd never have known that until I hurt my dog. One of my dogs works at a setting between 8 and 12; the other works at a 40. I an't even FEEL the collars myself until they get to about 20, and I find it uncomfortable well before 40. But my one dog is completely at ease at her setting of 40. My other would be very upset if I worked her at the setting that I felt, a 20. Our trainer helped us get the settings right so that the dogs were responding, but not uncomfortable and definitely not in pain. I sent a PM to you with the name of the training collars we use and the company responsible for the training. I'd recommend them to ANYONE. They are a world wide training group, and have representatives almost everywhere in the US. Good Luck!!! |
| I would research the brands, read the directions thoroughly. If you haven't had your dog to training, do so 1st. Ask questions. Look at some videos. All that being said I have had wonderful results with the Innotek Remote Training Collar ADV-300P. The battery seems to last forever. Yes, I have tested it on my arm, multiple times at all levels. It's kind of like a vibration. Not pain, and it's a split second. I did not need a professional trainer to use it, but I did read the directions and research extensively. That part is up to you. Will your dog remember it, yes indeed. So much so, that possibly one time is all you will ever need to use it. After that, the conditioned response is there, and you can use the "beeper" (a low beep noise) to "remind them." My main issue was safety. I hike extensively in cougar territory and where people fly up the hill way too fast. He is off leash mostly because he's a puller - well that, and we live on 20 acres on a foothill that is huge and only a few houses spaced far apart. He doesn't wander - gosh I don't know a sheepdog that does wander really - they seem to be too concerned with "home." But he will bolt towards things, then come back. Anyway, We rarely encounter a car where we hike on our foothill, but if we do, he will immediately stop on command and I grab his leash. He likes to chase cars or tries to approach the window as they slow down - scratch scratch to new car paint, or literally he will jump right in. Also, he needs to know when it's OK to investigate a deer/turkey or dangerous situation. I tell him to halt if I don't think he should nosey in. That's about all I use it for, but it's a god send. On leash, he still listens to my commands taught w/ the zapper (like "Halt" and stay). My goal is to have him off leash more often when we are in remote territory (maybe a few dogs/people here or there). Other than that, it's great for corrections - like if you want your dog out of your garden, away from a 10 month old baby etc...All it takes is one mild zap. Never forgotten. It works for some dogs, not all. The training with it can get complex. Some people get into commands like sitting or tricks etc..I did not like it for that. I really just think of it as an emergency type tool. He can do sit/roll over etc commands for cookies fine anyway. Positive reinforcement for serious stuff like stopping on cue immediately and permanently til I say it's OK to move in the presence of a wild animal or car was impossible for us w/ cookies - when he's exercising or excited, food does NOT interest him, in fact he won't eat at all when we exercise or are in a strange or new environment. Petting is the same...I mean as a positive reward. So I do a mixture of positive reinforcement for some tasks and negative for others. I am not of the camp that it has to be all one way or the other. The remote control goes for a long way & it's small - over 100ft. maybe 200ft? Also water proof. We haven't tested that part. Also the zaps are at multi levels -you choose what works. And try it on yourself. It's not the big deal that people make it out to be. I just would not use it if it doesn't work for your dog, or and obviously do NOT use it over and over if it's not working the very 1st time. For me, just once. I use the beep function if he's slacking. That's all I need, and probably why the battery lasts forever. It's ok to call it a zapper/electronic collar too. Sometimes the world gets too PC for me. Good luck! |
| We've had two rescue dogs that have serious behavioral issues caused by improper training with shock collars. They should not be used casually and only by someone who knows what they are doing. |
| That's a lot of training Ron! I've consulted w/ trainers, but find it's always the shove the cookie/clicker approach or use a high pitched voice approach & it just doesn't work (for us). So many fads out there now too. And many contradictions about what's right/wrong. I've taken a few good things away from those experiences though. I add to it with research and reading. Or hearing about what works for others. But I think we'd all benefit from reading and then the real implementation of the advice no matter where it comes from. Also, trainers (as in the one that owned the famous doggy daycare we all know of) aren't always perfect. They can sometimes do more harm than good. There is no quality control or state board exams for dog trainers. They can just make it up on the fly if they so choose. There was quite a bit of literature w/ the collar. They don't hand them out and tell you to press "shock!" Very thorough information for a good start, but if it's confusing, scary or one feels it's too complicated or difficult, then by all means get a trainer. |
| Before putting an electric collar on your dog why don't you put it on your own neck, activate it and then decide if you believe it to be humane. I suspect you'll decide on a different training method. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Before putting an electric collar on your dog why don't you put it on your own neck, activate it and then decide if you believe it to be humane. I suspect you'll decide on a different training method. Yup. Couldn't agree more. Seriously, I've said it before, I've had one of those collars accidentally hit my leg and it hurt like crazy. Sick, shaky kind of pain. Awful. |
| I've never been tasered but I wonder if it's a similar feeling? |
| I knew this would be a controversial subject to post and I thank everyone for their input. First, let me say, I would never use anything on my dogs I don't first try on myself. Second, I have trained dogs to the CDX level so I am not unfamilair with training and have researched and researched and researched...Third, I do not plan to take on this task without help from an expert trainer. I might add, all my training has been with positive enforcement only...nothing forceful or inhumane. I believe my dogs are dogs first and not robots to my every command...I would NEVER put equiment on my dog with out first testing it on myself to see what it feels like. NEVER. EVER. However, I do believe the electronic collars have come a long long way from decades ago and wanted some input from people who use them. I am not saying I am going to use one. I just wanted the input so I can have further input into my decision one way or the other. That was the reason for my post so thank you to those who responded. |
bestdogs wrote: I've never been tasered but I wonder if it's a similar feeling? I've seen police footage of people being tasered; drug users and other "unstoppable" type criminals. It seems to drop them in their tracks. I've used my dogs remote collars on myself and as I said earlier, at levels below 20 (which one of my dogs uses) I can't even feel the thing. So I think its safe to say that the collar system I use is nothing like a taser. Ashley is correct; the technology has come a long way, and there are all different degrees of collars available for use. An earlier poster said their remote collar worked up to a distance of as much as 200 ft. My collar system is good for up to 1/2 a mile. This is just one example of how different collars work. "Invisible Fences" is another type of remote collar; its just a mechanical fence system manning the "zapper" instead of a human owner pushing a button in conjunction with a command. Anyone choosing to use any of these types of training, for whatever reason, should do so carefully and as Ashley said, with much research. |
I wish I had thought of these with my teeenage sons!  |
Archies Slave wrote: I wish I had thought of these with my teeenage sons! I thought those were supposed to respond well to treat training? "Who wants a pizza? Clean your room and you can have a nice slice of Pizza!"  |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Archies Slave wrote: I wish I had thought of these with my teeenage sons! I thought those were supposed to respond well to treat training? "Who wants a pizza? Clean your room and you can have a nice slice of Pizza!" LMAO |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Archies Slave wrote: I wish I had thought of these with my teeenage sons! I thought those were supposed to respond well to treat training? "Who wants a pizza? Clean your room and you can have a nice slice of Pizza!" The fun part is making them balance a slice on their nose.  |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: We've had two rescue dogs that have serious behavioral issues caused by improper training with shock collars. They should not be used casually and only by someone who knows what they are doing. Couldn't agree more. I've used one to break a serious bad habit but it is NOT something I use for regular training. It is a last resort. Timing is the key. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: Maggie McGee IV wrote: We've had two rescue dogs that have serious behavioral issues caused by improper training with shock collars. They should not be used casually and only by someone who knows what they are doing. Couldn't agree more. I've used one to break a serious bad habit but it is NOT something I use for regular training. It is a last resort. Timing is the key. I think its going to depend on the type of collar you use. I don't leave my collars on my girls when we are home (unless we are working on a new training direction, or a problem-- they like to chase the cats, for example). But I do use them for something as simple as dog walks and trips to the coffee shop. But again; I would not classify my collar system as a "shock" collar, but rather as remote training collars. These collars don't deliver a shock, but rather an electric impulse that stimulates the muscle. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: ChSheepdogs wrote: Maggie McGee IV wrote: We've had two rescue dogs that have serious behavioral issues caused by improper training with shock collars. They should not be used casually and only by someone who knows what they are doing. Couldn't agree more. I've used one to break a serious bad habit but it is NOT something I use for regular training. It is a last resort. Timing is the key. I think its going to depend on the type of collar you use. I don't leave my collars on my girls when we are home (unless we are working on a new training direction, or a problem-- they like to chase the cats, for example). But I do use them for something as simple as dog walks and trips to the coffee shop. But again; I would not classify my collar system as a "shock" collar, but rather as remote training collars. These collars don't deliver a shock, but rather an electric impulse that stimulates the muscle. SERIOUSLY? You can call it what every you want but these collars are designed to deliver a shock (an electrical impulse is a shock)-a negative stimulus that hurts, or at least is uncomfortable enough to elicit a response from the animal. If you chose to use this training method that is your right but please don't try to make it sound as if you are using a kind and gentle training method. Anyone who choses to use this as a training method needs to understand what it is they are doing and implying that it is simply a "muscle stimulant" is an unfair representation of what these collars do. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: ChSheepdogs wrote: Couldn't agree more. I've used one to break a serious bad habit but it is NOT something I use for regular training. It is a last resort. Timing is the key. I think its going to depend on the type of collar you use. I don't leave my collars on my girls when we are home (unless we are working on a new training direction, or a problem-- they like to chase the cats, for example). But I do use them for something as simple as dog walks and trips to the coffee shop. But again; I would not classify my collar system as a "shock" collar, but rather as remote training collars. These collars don't deliver a shock, but rather an electric impulse that stimulates the muscle. SERIOUSLY? You can call it what every you want but these collars are designed to deliver a shock (an electrical impulse is a shock)-a negative stimulus that hurts, or at least is uncomfortable enough to elicit a response from the animal. If you chose to use this training method that is your right but please don't try to make it sound as if you are using a kind and gentle training method. Anyone who choses to use this as a training method needs to understand what it is they are doing and implying that it is simply a "muscle stimulant" is an unfair representation of what these collars do. Taskers mom, have you handled (and tried on yourself, as is often been suggested in these discussions) the specific type of collar these folks are talking about? Both Darth and Ashly have said they have, and that it didn't hurt. I have a friend who has used one for help with her dogs fear-aggression problems, and have tried it on myself, and I agree. Now UNCOMFORTABLE is a different word...and I know many people disagree with using any method that could be called "uncomfortable" for the dog. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, so long as its kinda the last resort. Heck, I don't mind using "uncomfortable" discipline on myself, i.e. exercising to the point its not fun, etc, for my own good  I don't really think anyone claimed that the e-collar is a "gentle" technique, at least by the usual definition, just that it isn't cruel, or painful. Would I use one? Probably not, unless at some time in the future I found myself with a dog who's life depended on getting over some serious, intractable behavior problem, but I do think the people discussing it here are being responsible, and using the tools they feel they need to.  |
ravenmoonart wrote: Taskers mom, have you handled (and tried on yourself, as is often been suggested in these discussions) the specific type of collar these folks are talking about? Both Darth and Ashly have said they have, and that it didn't hurt. I have a friend who has used one for help with her dogs fear-aggression problems, and have tried it on myself, and I agree. Now UNCOMFORTABLE is a different word...and I know many people disagree with using any method that could be called "uncomfortable" for the dog. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, so long as its kinda the last resort. Heck, I don't mind using "uncomfortable" discipline on myself, i.e. exercising to the point its not fun, etc, for my own good I don't really think anyone claimed that the e-collar is a "gentle" technique, at least by the usual definition, just that it isn't cruel, or painful. Would I use one? Probably not, unless at some time in the future I found myself with a dog who's life depended on getting over some serious, intractable behavior problem, but I do think the people discussing it here are being responsible, and using the tools they feel they need to. Yes I have put at least three different brands of these remote collars on my own arm and pushed the button at the lowest setting. The sensation while not excruciatingly painful was definitely uncomfortable and unpleasant. There was quite a divide in my Search and Rescue group over the use of the collars. Those that used them brought them in and in an effort to convince those who were against their use that they were humane passed them around and let us try them. I put the three different ones in use on and activated them. It left me even more convinced that ever that they are not a training method I would ever use. My belief is that they are indeed cruel. But, that is only my belief. |
| Everyone must decide what training is best for themselves and for their dog. Like I said earlier, the setting on the collar that Tonks uses? I can't even feel it myself. So there's no discomfort let alone pain. And again, I can't stress enough that this type of training should be done with a trainer who has knowledge in the proper use of these collars. If it hurts, you are doing it wrong. |
| Well, I knew I opened a controversial subject with this topic and now that we've had a bit of a discussion about it, maybe its best we move on. I thank everyone for their input. |
Tasker's Mom wrote: ravenmoonart wrote: I put the three different ones in use on and activated them. It left me even more convinced that ever that they are not a training method I would ever use. My belief is that they are indeed cruel. But, that is only my belief. Maybe you're just a huge baby.  |
ButtersStotch wrote: Tasker's Mom wrote: ravenmoonart wrote: I put the three different ones in use on and activated them. It left me even more convinced that ever that they are not a training method I would ever use. My belief is that they are indeed cruel. But, that is only my belief. Maybe you're just a huge baby. LOL Jill I'm gonna borrow one of the zap collars and bring it to a show and slap it on ya. Just for laughs if nothing else. |
Willowsprite wrote: LOL Jill I'm gonna borrow one of the zap collars and bring it to a show and slap it on ya. Just for laughs if nothing else. I've zapped the hell out of myself with a tens and a regular shock collar. The tens is nothing, it's more like a buzzy stimulation. A friend of mine uses one for some pain that I don't believe he actually has, lol. The real shock collar, the shock on the nick and first setting just resulted in crazy giggles. James and I were seeing who could take more. He won. I would prefer to never have to use one but I do understand some desperate situations call for different training methods. I'd definitely opt for the tens, though. It's not shocking and there's a lot more control. |
| And Ginny, you know I'm just giving you a hard time because it's what I do. |
ButtersStotch wrote: The real shock collar, the shock on the nick and first setting just resulted in crazy giggles. James and I were seeing who could take more. He won. I would SO love to see a video of this! |
ButtersStotch wrote: Willowsprite wrote: LOL Jill I'm gonna borrow one of the zap collars and bring it to a show and slap it on ya. Just for laughs if nothing else. I've zapped the hell out of myself with a tens and a regular shock collar. The tens is nothing, it's more like a buzzy stimulation. A friend of mine uses one for some pain that I don't believe he actually has, lol. The real shock collar, the shock on the nick and first setting just resulted in crazy giggles. James and I were seeing who could take more. He won. I would prefer to never have to use one but I do understand some desperate situations call for different training methods. I'd definitely opt for the tens, though. It's not shocking and there's a lot more control. Darn it always been banned here any form of Shock collar, including the ones for those invisible fences. So jill if you and james visit here I cant slap one of you for kicks, I'm with ravenmoonart VIDEO it, we wanna see the zap competition and who wins  |
| I knew that they were all banned in Australia. So I was VERY surprised when I was online looking at the certified trainers for my girls collar system and it listed Queensland, Australia as a market they were in! Maybe they've recognized that they aren't actually harmful, and allowed them. PM me if you'd like a link. |
| Now I was wondering about that as I ran into someone at an off lead park last year who had used one so I didnt know they were banned here. Only knew that prong collars were banned. |
ButtersStotch wrote: James and I were seeing who could take more. He won. That sounds like when my brothers would play 'ouch'. For those unfamiliar with the game, it's when you take a rubberband and pull it back on your friends arm and release. The first person to say 'ouch' loses. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: Maybe they've recognized that they aren't actually harmful, and allowed them. PM me if you'd like a link. From what I understand, you have different levels of correction for each of your dogs. If they are not at the highest setting then there is potential for pain at a level that you do not use. Correct? So someone else could use your system at the highest level and hurt their dog, now? I also don't understand the concept. You don't use them at home now, but you do when out and about? Then the way I understand it they are no longer used for training, per se, but as a correction, only. If you have had them for so long, and still using them, then they obviously don't work. Correcting a dog that has not been trained is cruel. From the dog's point of view, he/she gets a correction / buzz/ zap...when you feel appropriate. There is no way the dog could possibly associate that type of correction with what he/she is doing as it would not be a consistent punishment, used every single time the behavior is presented. Because they are not always wearing the collars. That is why you still use them, as they are not trained. I think, DarthSnuggle, that you are happy with what you are doing to your dogs, but to say they are not harmful is not an accurate statement. Punishment, even at a mild level, is harmful and confusing and cruel, both physically and mentally, if the dog doesn't completely understand the logic. |
| Anyone that has met Allison or followed her journey with Tonks and Luna know she'd never do anything to harm her girls. It's not fair to judge her for using what seems like an unconventional method of training but she did it as a last resort and under the instruction of a qualified trainer. Tonks and Luna have turned into wonderful companions instead of dogs that were given up on. Allison should be commended for her persistence rather than persecuted for seeking alternate methods of training. |
| Thanks Nita; I think "KindtoDogs" hasn't met me or Tonks and Luna, so is only speaking their opinion on the subject of training collars and not anything based on facts. My dogs have never been taught the word "no"; did you know that dogs don't actually comprehend the concept of a negative? You have to correct unwanted behavior with a command that directs them to do a different action. Now I ask you, would a person that doesn't even use the word "no" with her dogs use a device as punishment? As for my dogs not being trained... again you are making assumptions. At the last Sheepie Palooza, Tonks tooks first place in Obedience and Luna took third place. And Tonks took second place in Agility (I didn't bother to enter Luna; Jumping on command is "beneath her and undignified", or so she thinks). All done without their collars, thank you. My dogs are very well trained. No they aren't going to roll over or "shake". But they are going to mind their manners, and more importantly they aren't going to tear each others' throats out. Or did you not know that the reason we pursued collar training was because aggressive behavior that 3 8 week sessions of "positive re-enforcement" obedience classes couldn't help. We had two 6 month old dogs fighting with each other daily, and my vet suggested euthanization, re-homing of one of the dogs, or this aggression specific trainer and her magic training collars. KindtoDogs; you cannot assume every training is going to work for every situation. I'm not some lazy suburban housewife that couldn't be bothered to put the work in. The dog training school I took my girls to that didn't work was just featured on Its Me or the Dog. I didn't take my puppies to Petsmart, and then wonder why it didn't work. I always do my homework, and I always pick the very best for my dogs, regardless of cost. And despite your personally feelings on the subject, these remote collars were, and still are, the best decision for my dogs. Walk a mile in my shoes, be told you have to kill your 6 month old puppy, and then try and make the decision that I had to make. Truth? alot of other people would have had their dog put down rather than put in the effort to do this training. Its not easier than treat or clicker training; its just as time consuming, just as much work. Tonks and Luna are loving, smart, friendly girls. They turned out to not truly be aggressive, but instead to have dominancy issues. So the training worked out wonderfully for us. I ask that everyone EDUCATE themselves about collar training before jumping in and making a decision that may end up hurting your dog, and hurting your relationship with your dog. |
kindtodogs wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: Maybe they've recognized that they aren't actually harmful, and allowed them. PM me if you'd like a link. From what I understand, you have different levels of correction for each of your dogs. If they are not at the highest setting then there is potential for pain at a level that you do not use. Correct? So someone else could use your system at the highest level and hurt their dog, now? I also don't understand the concept. You don't use them at home now, but you do when out and about? Then the way I understand it they are no longer used for training, per se, but as a correction, only. If you have had them for so long, and still using them, then they obviously don't work. Correcting a dog that has not been trained is cruel. From the dog's point of view, he/she gets a correction / buzz/ zap...when you feel appropriate. There is no way the dog could possibly associate that type of correction with what he/she is doing as it would not be a consistent punishment, used every single time the behavior is presented. Because they are not always wearing the collars. That is why you still use them, as they are not trained. I think, DarthSnuggle, that you are happy with what you are doing to your dogs, but to say they are not harmful is not an accurate statement. Punishment, even at a mild level, is harmful and confusing and cruel, both physically and mentally, if the dog doesn't completely understand the logic. Maybe someone could use the system at the highest level and hurt their dog. That's whay Allison stated that she believes you should only use the collars under the supervision of a qualified trainer. I have used TENS machines with my patients. Some individuals say the intensity is too much at very low levels while others at very high levels. No one knows why we have such varied tolerance levels to stimuli; we just know that we do. Kind of a Goldilocks scenario in terms of this TENS stimuli is too much, too little, just right. Darth Snuggle is not giving the dogs a punishment, the collar is set so that the dogs feel an unusual prickling sensation not pain. Rather she is giving them a negative reinforcer when they exhibit the behaviour that she wants to extinguish. This is how training with classical conditioning works. The negative reinforcer must be a sensation that is somewhat unpleasant and occurs within 1-2 seconds of the undesirable behaviour, and only occurs when the undesirable behaviour occurs. This is why remote training collars were invented. If your dog has just taken off after the cat then you cannot administer an immediate negative reinforcer unless you dog hates to be growled at. She is using the collars when out and about because that is when her dogs exhibit some of the other undesirable behaviours that she is still working on. It is correct that you dont give a dog a correction (or punishment if you want to use the old classical conditioning term, but this doesnt refer to the typical definition of punishment and is not used much anymore due to it causing confusion) when they are learning a new behaviour. But you do use a correction when you are a.)training a behaviour that you know the dog has learnt the command for and is chosing not to offer that behaviour or b.) extinguishing unwanted behaviours. The correction can vary from verbal, to removal of desirable stimuli, ie attention, treats to an unpleasant sensation ie correction chain, prong collar, shock collar etc. There is a lot of confusion in the training literature about learning versus training. Many sheepies are very independent by nature and a good verbal negative reinforcer (aka a good telling off) is like water off a duck's back. My girl is a perfect example. If I use a verbal negative reinforcer my dalmatian gets very upset, my sheepie on the other hand acts as if she's deaf, actually not deaf more like a rebellious teenager, if she could give me the bird she probably would.  Some people would never use a shock collar with their dogs due to personal beliefs or because their dog is soft and reacts badly to negative reinforcers. Others like Darth Snuggle use them as a last resort rather than give up on the dog. Hope that helps your understanding of the concept. |
| DarthSnuggle, I have no doubt that you love your dogs and have put a lot of time, money and effort into them. It is too bad you have to continue to punish them for behaviors they exhibit. As mentioned previously, if that training worked you would not need to continue to punish them. And you may use them at a lower level, but someone else may not. So stating that they do not hurt is not true. Mim, I think you might be a bit confused with the terms. The collars are a "positive punishment", as it is something introduced (the shock or vibration) to stop the action. Definition: Positive punishment (P+) -Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of) a behavior. For example, jerking on the leash to stop a dog from jumping on someone is P+ used to suppress the behavior of jumping. Other common examples of P+ include yelling, nose taps, spanking, electric shock, and assorted “booby traps.” Negative reinforcement is where an aversive is removed when the dog continues the wanted behavior. Definition: Negative reinforcement (R-) -Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior. Heeling is traditionally taught through R-. The dog receives a correction when he walks anywhere except in heel position. Walking in heel position increases, because that is the only “safe” place—because the threat of correction is removed by walking there. The key to R- is that an aversive must first be applied or threatened in order for it to be removed. Neither of these sounds like it would be nice to experience, so I don't use either one. They are both engaging aversive methods that I personally do not use or support and like to take the time to explain to people. I am just clarifying that using these types of collars is not something that is easily understood. What you are doing to your dog is not what you think. And dominant dogs do not normally fight, so I don't know why your trainer would say something like that. It is the insecure, fearful ones that do. But again, if people chose to train their dogs with aversives, that is their choice. But there are also many, many people who chose not to, and that is so much better for the dog. I know if I was a dog I would like that way better...  And thank you for giving me the opportunity to disagree. I think I have no way to go but down in this thread so I will stop here  |
| kindtodogs: I will be VERY clear. My dogs are not "punished". Not ever. And their collars do not hurt them. I realize by the name you have chosen to post under, and the very small number of times that you have chosen to post here, that you may not have an open mind on subjects like this one, and you probably limit the time you spend on the board to doing this sort of unfriendly posting. Ron works hard to maintain what some call a "teacup" environment: If you wouldn't say it to someone over a cup of tea, then you shouldn't post it on this message board. This "teacup" idea weeds out posts that may sound rude or inflammatory, posts like the ones you have been making. I'm trying very hard to not be angry, and not let you push my buttons by making these unfounded accusations that read just short of animal abuse. Sure, I could back down and just not post about my experiences. Obviously, every time this topic comes up it ends almost the same way. People say angry things, feelings get hurt, and threads get locked. However, if my sharing my experiences helps someone out there that is having a hard time with training, someone like myself 2 years ago that found herself sitting on the kitchen floor, crying, trying to decide if it was more humane to put my puppy down, re-home it and HOPE its new family could cope better than I could, or try a training method I knew I was going to be blasted for; if enduring the posts of people like you helps someone out there like me? Then its all worth it. Dog saved, family saved, mission accomplished. So say your worst. I'll still be here, and I'll still post my very positive experiences with this training method, provided its done correctly, with the right collars and the right trainer to assist you learn how to use it. |
| Ah, this is why I didn't want to post this question in the first place. It's controversial, sort of like the raw feeding debate. I'm curious though as to what method and under whose training kindtodogs trains? If you research positive enforcemnt training, the remote collar may come up as a possible tool. However, how you train with it is another issue. The "escape" method is one that is not a positive reinforcement tactic and is a negative induced training method which is not really a recommended method. For me, the "escape" ethod is cruel and goes against the relationship you are trying to build with your dog. I doubt anyone uses that method here. I don't think there is anyone on this forum who would "hurt" their dogs. I think people may be "misinformed" about the remote collar training. I think the two may never see "eye to eye" on the issue. So, let's understand, no one is out to hurt their dogs, no one is shocking their dogs for their own motives...people need to make their own decisions on what is the best method for their dogs. Not all dogs are the same. Not all dogs repsond the same. Not all humans are responsible dog owners. Let's not make negative comments nor accuse people who differ in opinion or technique... We all LOVE our dogs... |
| Ashely; don't regret bringing the subject up. Its really important that people feel that they can ask questions and seek advice or help for their dogs, regardless of how controversial the subject. You are right when you say that the collar systems are considered by some to be humane. The brand I use, with the training I was taught, is used by several humane societies across the country to help with dogs that would otherwise be considered unplaceable, and euthanized as such. It's also used to train police dogs, dogs in the military, and some types of therapy dogs. These are all industries that do not take cruelty to animals lightly. This knowledge was one of the factors that helped me to feel comfortable pursuing this training for my dogs. Please; don't feel bad about bringing the subject up. Others might have the same questions, and will benefit from this open exchange of opinions and information. |
I really like reading both sides-- there's stuff to learn from both points of view. I think everyone's being as civil as this topic usually allows. I feel like such a mom for saying this but let's continue to stay civil or we'll have to turn this car around so fast...  I'm not trying to be bossy, just moderating early. |
I'm glad you brought it up. We just got collars for out 2 dogs and want to start training them. We have been battling with the same kind of questions and trying to decide if we should do it ourselves by 'self-study' or hire a trainer. The reason is, we have 2 Sheepdogs that like to run and when they get excited don't listen. Not one bit, for one second, not for anything. All of the classes and trainings and work we do with them just doesn't cut it. Even one of our trainers told us that. "It happens sometimes. Some dogs just don't listen." (jerk)  Since we live out in the country and have a beef cattle and a dairy farm near by and in our county, farmers and property owners have a right to protect their livestock and shoot-to-kill. There was a dog in a nearby town that was shot with an arrow and survived...suffered, but survived. We don't want that for our dogs. They are also car chasers. If we are not able to get them to respond to verbal commands as they go after a car, I will be glad to be able to use the collar as a back-up and get them to respond. We would rather have a dog that gets 'nic-ed' then a dog that is dead. We are going to see if a trainer will come out and help us with the training after reading the educated posts. Thank you for your post. PS Mean people suck. |
| How far away from the remote do electric collars operate? Just wondering how quickly a dog could get out of range resulting in loss of control. If the collar might also be used off your property, you might check into these things... - Whether your animal control enforces a leash law. Ours requires the owner to be holding the leash except under certain circumstances. - Whether you have a contract on the dog to keep it leashed when outside a fenced area. We signed one that says this... "... nor shall said dog be allowed off leash without supervision unless in a fenced in area. The primary and ONLY function of a "Rescue" dog is that of a house pet. We require, at all times, a fenced area or walks on a leash." Mine would love to run in an open field or the woods... I guess just about all dogs would. |
| I believe the range on my collars is 1/2 mile. I think they did this with hunting and retrieving dogs in mind. Tonks and Luna are never that far from me; I've got typical velcro sheepies! |
kindtodogs wrote: And dominant dogs do not normally fight, so I don't know why your trainer would say something like that. It is the insecure, fearful ones that do. I am sorry, but until you have lived with dominant bitches I don't think you should make that statement. It just simply isn't true. (speaking from 25 years of experience in this breed) |
| Plus I got my dogs at 8 weeks old. WHEN did they have the chance to develop fear or insecurity? Quite a few people here have met my girls at Sheepie Palooza and other sheepdog events here in Atlanta. I doubt ANY of them would use the adjectives "fearful" or "insecure" to describe Tonks and Luna!!!! |
Um, Alison, not to sound dumb but how many "yards" is 1/2 mile?  Most of the collars I researched used yards as to distance...And to the poster who has the two OES and is wprried about the dogs getting shot for wandering onto another's farms...yes, enlist the help of a trainer to help you with the remote collar if for nothing else, a trainer can assess your area and see what distance colar you need and how best to train wiith it....I wouldn't attempt any kind of remote training on my own... |
| 1/2 mile is about 900 yards Our collars are the 900 yards as well. When looking at the collars, we made sure to look for the ones that had the 'nick' function with vibration. We went with the Micro-iDT Series collars because of the range, ability to have vibration, dual collar system, positive reviews, and the price. We opted for the remote system instead of the invisible fence so that we could take it with us when we go out and about. We live in the country and have about 3.25 acres. Our neighborhood is very dog friendly and dogs can roam free...it is the country. We have a 'no fence' rule unless approved by the association. I think no one has one because it would be really out of place out here and I think no one wants to start that trend....and expensive. But, we leash our dogs when we take them out. We have tried to let them run free, and sometimes they are ok, but there are a few times we have had to pray they come back. Our kids just get too excited! |
ChSheepdogs wrote: kindtodogs wrote: And dominant dogs do not normally fight, so I don't know why your trainer would say something like that. It is the insecure, fearful ones that do. I am sorry, but until you have lived with dominant bitches I don't think you should make that statement. It just simply isn't true. (speaking from 25 years of experience in this breed) In my very limited experience:
The first two were/are both very off-putting to other dogs (and humans!) with the exuberance of their greeting, the bold one with a strong charge followed by a stiff sniff to the side of the head, and the slightly timid one with bouncing and barking. The first one's approach caused many dogs to take a snap or a bite at him. Make what you will of my limited experience with all male rescue(d) dogs. Someday I'd love to have a dog that was well socialized and calm and could be off-leash in a dog park and just be one of the gang at least once in a while. Maybe if all of my dog's weren't rescues... |
| Dogs are WIERD. I think thats the technical term. Tonks and Luna would think nothing of taking a chunk out of each other, but would NEVER bite a person. And Luna is submissive to every dog she meets, unless that dog goes after Tonks. She's drawn blood in defense of her sister. Only Luna gets to bit Tonks, darn it! And the wierdest bit? For all thier fighting at the early stages, Tonks and Luna have almost never drawn blood, and when they did it was minor scrapes. Go figure. |
| My otherwise very calm (though certainly dominant) female becomes dog-aggressive in one (and only one) circumstance: another bitch, living in her house. She's perfectly ok with other females she meets at parks, on walks, sharing a vehicle, at shows etc, etc...even with having one visit briefly at the house...but move in?! Oh hell no!! We discovered years ago that we cant take female fosters, for this reason  |
Ravenport, I am sort of the same way....If another female moved into this house, I would ahve a big problem!  As my friend the vet told me, they don't call female dogs "bitches" for no reason! |
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