OES Anti-Social Behavior - Reason to Be Alarmed?
Since that point, I have worked with him the best that I know. I don't force him into any situations (pulling him over to meet people, etc.), and although he has been a little better, he still doesn't walk up to people and want to socialize. He'll keep his distance, try to hide behind me, etc. I'm OK with the fact that he's not Mr. Social, even though I would like him to be, but today was very alarming. When we were outside of our apartment complex on a small "island" in the middle where we play ball and whatnot, a small child and a babysitter walked up. I assumed that Oakley would probably be somewhat fearful like he usually is, but rather than cowering away, he started ferociously barking at the small child. The kid wasn't even loud and didn't run up or try to approach Oakley, but the whole time he was on the island Oakley barked at him. This is the first time that it has happened and I don't want this to escalate any farther. He has never had any traumatizing experiences with children or adults. There have been a couple of times on campus when somebody has ran around the corner and scared him, but nothing that should have made him behave this way. My first question is, are any of your Old English's fearful/somewhat antisocial? Is this an OES trait? I was under the assumption that these were very warm/friendly dogs as a breed in general. Does anybody have any tips on what I can work on or do you think that this will be lifelong persistent? Any tips would be greatly appreciated - I'm not familiar with the breed in this sense and am starting to become somewhat concerned. Sorry for the long post - just wanted to cover all of my bases. Thanks everybody! |
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| What you describe is not an accepted OES trait. Far from it. This is how the American breed standard describes the ideal OES temperament and to me it says it all: An adaptable, intelligent dog of even disposition, with no sign of aggression, shyness or nervousness. The fearfulness you describe is nonetheless something that has crept into the breed. We see it in rescue dogs all the time in my area - in fact, I see it very strongly in my own rescue dog, and by all accounts every effort was made to socialize her properly as well. I've seen it sporadically in the show lines too, and it concerns me a great deal. I.e. you are correct to assume there is a genetic predisposition. I won't be surprised if we some day discover there is some kind of chemical imbalance, not necessarily thyroid, though in this breed that is always a consideration as well. There seems to be an on-switch at some time during adolescence. The entire litter need not turn out this way, but I've been told you can tell as early as the whelping box, if you're paying attention, which puppies are at highest risk. Anyway, I think you may want to consider letting your dog's breeder know what you're experiencing and see if he or she has any words of wisdom. At the very least they should be aware. That said, it's not the end of the world. As you say, not ideal, no. But typically something you can live and work with. Thankfully all of your instincts are very good. You recognized the importance of socializing him. You recognize his reactions as fearful and not vicious - which also fits the barking at incident you just described as well: he's quietly learning that if he barks first (and asks questions later  ), scary things may go away. Often reinforced by the fact that scary things may be incidental to his world and would be passing by in any event. What I do with my fearful rescue dog is take her with me to places I train. There I know I have a captive audience of dog savvy people, people like yourself who have a good sense of dogs and how to best approach this type of dog. I recruit them as I go along, give them a handful of delectable treats and ask them not to look at her but to at first drop them near her, later feed them to her and eventually she has to actually DO something they ask to get the cookie. This doesn't happen overnight. The other thing that works well for her as that she LOVES to work. So I ask her to do things she enjoys, gradually closer and closer to the scary people. She's so focused on that at this point that she can usually ignore the people around her unless they are right on top of her. Mind you, there are many different ways to approach this. The above is just a part of one, it's an ongoing process and you take advantage of the situations around you that allow you to work on the issues as they come along - i.e. use your common sense and be flexible. I will say that Ms Thing got corrected when she started showing signs of lunging. Very calmly and without a trace of emotion I physically interrupted her and made her stop, sit and give me the attention we'd been working on. Then I rewarded that. There's no recipe and I can't say that she would have become a chronic lunger if I hadn't interrupted her or that this can't backfire with some dogs, but it was just a gut reaction: "hon, I'm not gonna live with this, got it?" The more nuts she gets, the calmer I have to be. Some days I feel like I'm just a fraction of an iota short of comatose   Other days she impresses me and I think that, yes, you may never be super social, but you're going to be just fine. I'm sure others will have other things to add. Kristine |
| Three words: Prong collar. Behaviorist. I know they look really awful, and some people may disagree with me, but my OES behaviorist literally has brought sanity back into my beautiful pups with the help of that fantastic tool! at the SAME age that you describe, my first OES started being growly with my kids from time to time, and when we got my second OES, same age, we had some really scary fear based behavior that was SO unacceptable. I was afraid my kids would get hurt. I was afraid the OES pups would hurt each other too. Anyway.....the prong collars went on, and training session began. They respect that collar, and feel a lot less fearful as a result. They KNOW I am in control, and so they don't feel that they have to protect me or themselves, they know I have it under control. I tend to think that we can blame the breed for any problem, but the truth is that we often give off our own vibes, and they can feel it. If you have become more tense over the fear, they feel more afraid....and then....it turns in a cycle of fear based aggression. Get your control back. Show your sweetie fluff that you are going to take care of him, and that you are in control. The collars, combined with a good behaivorist, have made my home sane...and my pups are SO happy now. Sure, we have an occasional tussle...but there is light at the end of the tunnel. These are basically teenage pups...and we all know that teens lose serious IQ points for a time....at least....we parents know that! heh heh.....In short....your dog has maybe decided that he needs to react to something he feels in you, and you can help him with that by standing up straight, and making him pay attention to you and your control. Be loving...but be the one in charge. You can do it!!!!! I didn't think my situation was going to turn out well, and worried that I'd bitten off more than I could chew with such big dogs...but....they are the most loving animals ever, now that they know they can trust me to lead with confidence....the prong collar really really helps ensure that confidence. It doesn't hurt them if you don't abuse it's power....it makes them feel secure. Take care.....and don't delay.  |
| Sorry you are having a difficult time with Oakley....but you have come to the right place for support and suggestions..... Great advice so far..... My 2 cents::::: Just to be sure, I would have her checked out at the vet to make sure there is no physical reason for the change. Blood tests, maybe thyroid? I agree, call the breeder and talk to her about his behavior. Then, by all means, find a good behaviorist and have him evaluate Oakley and give you some suggestions regarding training this out of him. Maybe I missed it, it's been a long day...but are you in some kind of training classes with him???? A trainer can give you some training tips!!! Please keep us posted...and good luck ~~~ |
| You say your dog was barking but was she growling - ears back - teeth showing, hackles up? Were there signs of aggression in her or just curiosity? Granted we all want our dogs to be accepting of little children and anything else. I'm not sure the barking was agression. Wanting to "herd" maybe... Sounds like a dumb question but when she shows this "fear" or hides behind you, is someone wearing something "different"? Like a big floppy hat, sunglasses, something she may not have seen? I'm not saying I would encourage the behavior. But I'm not sure it rises to the level of being worried she is fearful or agressive...An obedience class is always a good thing and unless you are familiar with a prong collar, I wouldn't use one. I use a prong but have been training many years. Before using one, I would suggest a trainer show you how its used. I also recommend a thryoid test. My dog was getting a bit agressive, little at a time, and it ended up his thryoiud was low. He was only 2 and that's young for thryopid trouble but that's what it was. Keep us posted... |
| ^^^ Morgan was diagnosed at two for thyroid as well - he was never agressive though. I suspect two might not be young for thyroid- it might be young for owners to test their dogs. I agree about the prong, you need to have a good trainer who is versed int he proper usage fit it an dteach you how to use it - that should take only a few minuts though - it isn't rocket science |
| All good suggestions. Just remember a prong collar is used in training situations & not to be left on 24/7. Most important thing.....contact your breeder & let them know what your concerns are. They need to know this not only becasue they may be able to give you some tips on what to do & how to handle these situations but also because they need to know for their breeding program & to watch & see if any other littermates exhibit the same traits. Have your vet check your dog's eye sight. I know it sounds silly but if they are having any kind of sight problem they may not be able to judge people coming in thru doors & kids walking by etc. & go into a defensive mode. |
| The eye sight was a good suggestion! Or maybe just a haircut around the eyes so she can see better? I might add...when she shows this" fear" and hides behind you, etc...don't coddle and pet her and tell her, its okay, etc. That will only reinforce her. Instead try to get her attention to look at you and reward with a treat. Something to get her attention off whatever it is scareing her. And, one more thing...if you are nervous she can fell it down the leash and think, oh Dad is scared too...so try to remain calm and not get upset if she does this again. Meantime, I would watch her around small children and ask people to approach slowly, from the side not straight on, with hands down, not up in the air flapping about and eyes not staring into her's. |
| Thanks for the suggestions everyone - I have read each post in depth and have taken in all of the advice. I would contact the breeder, but I highly doubt she would recommend anything or even care about the situation based off of past experience, as sad as it is to say. I'm going to try to stay away from a prong collar for as long as I can - not that I don't think that they work but it's an option that I'd like to use as a last resort out of personal preference. His eyesight is good and his hair was recently cut. I don't think it was necessarily aggressive (no snarling, teeth showing), although I'm confident it was fearful rather than just curiosity. The barking wasn't a herding bark that I'm used to hearing from him - his herding is a more high pitched sound, this was a deep throaty keep your distance type of bark. The thyroid issue is a great tip. I will keep that in mind if the problem worsens - at his age of 8 months I'm hoping it's more of a developmental issue than biological. I had him back on the hill today and a regular and her mother (a stranger) were there as well. He took to the stranger like she was a personal friend. I'll have to do a better job of being more observant of what the people that he doesn't take to are wearing. Maybe he doesn't like hats or shades or something else? I do know that he doesn't like Kids, regardless of what they are wearing. When I head back to my hometown, I'm going to take him for a walk with my younger cousins (about 12) and instruct them on how to use treats to make friends w/ him. Once he becomes comfortable, I'll work younger and younger to show him that smaller people are a part of his world and although he may not like them, he has to tolerate them. Again, thanks for all of the tips everyone and if there is anything else that you can think of, please post. |
| I'd like to recommend a HUGE plateful of training. I've been through a ton of behavior issues with my two girls, and training seems to help us every time. If you train the heck out of them, they look to you as the "boss" and have faith that you will look out for them. Tonks went through a strange fearful period; we'd walk in the evenings and she'd jump at every little noise. It was suggested to me to try Agility training; as it helps to build the dog's confidence and our owner-dog relationship. And I have to say it DID do a lot to help Tonks relax. Basic obedience commands help a lot too. If your dog is fearful in a situation, you can tell them come, to sit, to lie down, and you stand by their side. They are too busy following your commands to allow their fear to dominate the situation. Or tell them to "watch"; then their attention is on you, watching your face until you give he next command. You can keep them in watch until the thing that is making them afraid has passed. Remember; these are working dogs, that often need jobs and tasks to feel at ease. Give them stuff to do, and they are happier, more relaxed dogs, I find. And "stuff to do" can be as simple as giving basic obedience commands or teaching them tricks that they can do. |
| All good advice. Before you use a prong on any dog please please learn the right way to fit it on your dog and the correct way to use it. A prong collar can be a useful tool when used correctly especially on this breed. I have started using a prong on my female and it has worked wonders for her barking and lunging . |
| PS the leerburg prong collar site is very helpful and make sure you buy a good one the cheap ones are crappy |
| Reading your post today about how your dog was fine with the stranger...Something about the child scared him/her...think from a dog standpoint...was the child using a high pitch tone of voice...were they wearing something stange to your dog...were they flapping their arms...running too fast...not that your dog should be afriad of any of these things but they might give you a tip waht to work on for him/her... 8 months is what they call the "fear" period. I train under the Volhards. Jack and Wendy. They are world renowed and have authored many many books....Maybe looking at their website will help you...www.volhard.com They speak alot about that 8 or 9 month fear period... PM me with any questions you may ahve. and Good Luck! Diane |
| I remember the fear period! I read about that when we were preparing for our dogs to come home; but thought recalled it being earlier. We did a lot of training then, specifically so the girls wouldn't be afraid of things that were completely normal to them weeks earlier. I remember when Luna for the first time expressed fear of planes flying overhead; we had to get her to look UP, to see them so she'd clam down. Its funny to recall; but at the time it was a big challenge. |
| Allison, I know it's counter intuitive but I do the opposite if I sense a puppy is going through some kind of fear period (not all do, or at least not noticably so, and in my experience it's generally limited to a slight loss of confidence or they lose some of their bounce-back when confronted with new stimuli) I back off and don't throw anything new or challenging at them during that period. Just sort of let them work their own way through it and they're fine. That's just what works for me. Your milage will undoubtedly vary kind of thing. Fear periods in my experience don't come at predictable ages, but vary widely by dogs, even closely related ones. I've never known a fear period to last for very long; a couple of weeks to maybe a couple of months, but certainly not for months on end. At that point I'd have to suspect I was dealing with something entirely different. Kristine |
| Hey everybody, sorry I haven't been on in a while, school has been crazy. I wanted to give a quick update though. Oakley is slowly starting to get better. I've been working with him as much as possible when we meet new people (I always carry treats on me now lol). With strangers he's still 50/50 until I've been talking to somebody for about 3 minutes, then he starts to calm down. When it comes to kids, he's a little better, but not where I want him to be. Today there was a toddler at my house and it took him a good 25 minutes to stop staring her down. Hence, she was totally bad energy - screaming, jumping, clapping hands as soon as I walked in. After we went on a walk with he started to tolerate her more. There was a point where she started running out ahead of us and he was off leash (I was comfortable with the situation). Anyways, he trotted up behind her as she was running and started sniffing her. He eventually started jumping in front of her and started play bowing her and playing with her. His front paws left the ground a couple times (which I jumped on immediately) so I'm not sure if he was playing/doesn't really know what little people are yet, but he was actually pretty good with her by the end. He accidentally knocked her over once - I actually caught it on video and wish I could find a way to upload it because it was pretty funny - but that wasn't his fault. So in short, he's slowly coming around. Rome wasn't built in a day. Thanks for all of the posts! -Robbie |
That's great news that Oakley is getting more confident.  Would love to see your video. You cant post video here just photos. You need to upload it to Youtube or somewhere like it and then post the URL. |
| Here's a video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFfsaqtvJE0 . I think he felt bad afterwards - he tried to lick her while she was on the ground lol. |
| Tiggy accidentally ran in front of a jogger and knocked her over. She crawled on her belly and licked her she felt so bad. |
OESatUVA wrote: Here's a video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFfsaqtvJE0 . I think he felt bad afterwards - he tried to lick her while she was on the ground lol. owwwww! Did the little one scream or cry? |
Cried for five seconds maybe, then was back screaming and running around like a crazy kid and letting Oakley chase and play with her. No worries  |
| You can tell by all the suggestions, you probably won't be able to work through this without help. That's OK, it could be something you are projecting and don't realize it and the dog is acting out. The more you become fearful or tense, the more the dog will become fearful and tense. That's where I agree with Allison. You remaining calm, assertive and correcting the bad behavior immediately (don't talk the dog to death, correct the behavior and relax, move on) and not trying to analyze it tells the dog YOU are in control and they need not get so........worked up. By all means see professional help soon. Hopefully they'll be able to spot the problem quickly. Also remember, this is the brain dead season for the dog where hormones start kicking in so the dog is confused to start with.......rather like a teenager. |
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