Simon's going to boot(paw) camp.
I talked with the trainer about this and together we decide he needs obedience training. We've done this before and I am VERY bad a practicing with him at home so we stopped. He does the very basic sit, lay,stay, wait, and "here" is come. We really did not need anything else. Since we've been going to run-thru's he has become very blase about listening. At the run-thru's he does just that...runs. Does not listen and does what he wants. So we are going to start again and I WILL!!!! practice with him and he WILL listen when I say "sit" |
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I feel your pain. 
SIT is still a four letter word for Harry at agility and rally trials as well. We are competing in the Advanced/Excellent level in rally and he always has the same routine. I work him hard outside the ring on "engagement presence" with high value treats. This means that I want him to sit automatically when I stop and he will get a treat. So we do this over and over and over......... until just seconds before going into the ring. He goes into the ring twice. First in Excellent, we enter the ring and I stop and say "sit" and he sits!  But it is almost like he is thinking "Doh! I didn't mean to cooperate"
Then the second time in he is getting reinforcers right up to going into the ring and as always they are spaced out so that the behavior stays with the cue a lot longer. But the minute we enter the ring for the Advanced and I say "sit" he makes me wait.  Sometimes long enough for the judge to say "He doesn't have to sit at the start line." And I want to say "Yes HE does or YOU will be sorry" because God knows that if Harry isn't focused at the start line it is only going to get uglier. 
Anyway Pam, I always feel like he is pawing his nose at me as if to say "You fooled me the first time but I won't sit for you this time."
Maybe it is a conspiracy theory. We are attending another clicker workshop in two weeks - titled "Stays and Self Control" neither of which Harry has.
Good luck to you Pam |
Ah music to my ears. 
At least I'm not alone in getting good behaviour when it suits and "What, I'm deaf, blind and have never been to an obedience class in my life when it matters" 
And Kerry dont tell me she's only two.  She can be the perfect angel when it suits her but a little demon when it doesnt.  |
| Maybe an attention class would help too. And just 5 minutes a day practicing the obedience, ending on YOUR terms, will make a vast improvement. I would never consider agility classes without some solid obedience foundation. You want your dog to enjoy agility & having to correct him constantly because of the lack of attention or the lack of sitting & staying when necessary isn't going to help. I think you'll be surprised. Most dogs like to have boundaries. They then know what is expected of them & they are happy to provide what you ask for. |
| Yes...... I find it amazing how slooooooowly the backside can descend at times, yet miraculously my dog can go from standing right past sitting into down - somehow faster than gravity - when there is a treat involved. |
Ron wrote: Yes...... I find it amazing how slooooooowly the backside can descend at times, yet miraculously my dog can go from standing right past sitting into down - somehow faster than gravity - when there is a treat involved. Yes Harry ascribes to that theory too Ron: "Will work for food" ChSheepdogs wrote: just 5 minutes a day practicing the obedience, ending on YOUR terms, will make a vast improvement.
Marilyn you are correct but remember that some members of this breed push the envelope more than others. Harry has has a load of obedience training and is a therapy dog but when he gets excited he is another zone. As his sheep herding trainer said "this dog would let me beat him with a rake before I could get his attention" and "he does not even know I am here". I laughed and told her "I don't think he knows there is a judge in the agility ring". All training goes out the window when he sees agility equipment, sheep or a rally ring. Heck, my husband says the stupid dog gets excited over taking out the trash on trash day. 
I work very hard with him and some exhibitors, trial secretaries and AKC officials who have seen him in the ring made a point of coming up to me to tell me that I am doing a great job with him. And I have been told by several others that he is a high drive dog and that I am doing a great job with him considering that. He really wants to mind me though because while he will down (eventually) as instructed when herding but he will let out a high pitched cry - this dog never cries. So while I agree that obedience can only help I would never over simplify it's benefit. A smarter owner would have probably thrown in the towel by now with Harry. |
| I have to agree with Marilyn.
I also think you need to find a trainer who is training the entire picture. Our private lessons start with 10 minutes of obedience and then we move on to agility. During our training for agility Fran will often remind me - go back and treat for that sit stay. And to be honest, we trained the start line stay in one class in 5 minutes - and don't talk to me about pushing the envelope. Marley still knows she is smarter than I am and she will take any oppportunity to remind me. But you can't twist the dog to the training method, - you have to work with what works for your dog and you can have two dogs in the same house of the same breed that need different methods (I started video taping classes to keep them straight )
If the method doesn't work right away - its not the dog that is at fault. I learned that the hard (and expensive) way. |
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quote: A smarter owner would have probably thrown in the towel by now with Harry.
OR moved to Hollywood and gotten him an agent ~~~~~ |
sheepieshake wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quote: A smarter owner would have probably thrown in the towel by now with Harry. OR moved to Hollywood and gotten him an agent ~~~~~ That was my thought.... 
They're all so damn different. I'm having an issue with Mace right now. Wrap your minds around this one folks; One way to work distance, driving through poles, completing an obstacle quickly etc etc is to throw or use a toy as a target (yes, you can use food on both counts, but for certain things a toy can really be advantageous depending on the dog). Here's my conundrum: I AM Macy's toy. How do I send her to me and achieve any degree of distance? 
Yeah, exactly. Let me know when some of you brains work that out.
Simon's thing is temporary, Pam. You'll get him back focused on what you want him to do. Harry is...Harry. The best I can describe it as, having seen him in action now and again, is taking him into a ring is like taking your otherwise well behaved teenage son to a pool party at the Playboy Mansion and expecting him to stay right by your side and have eyes for nothing but you Sure it can be done. But it involves overcoming all kinds of powerfully hardwired impulses.
Kristine |
| I can feel your pain - Marley is the same with me. Nothing compares to jumping on me or butting into me My instructor has always said - she won't have the same distance her super high drive Malinois Zee has.
And she is right, all of a sudden Miss Marley will do complex layered obstacles that she can't get Zee to take. I have no clue why - neither does Fran. She seems to have decided I know what I am doing and she will just work anything I send her too - sorry not much help am I? But can you hear the glee? |
| OR move to Hollywood and GET!!!!! GET him an agent!!!!!!! (I really need to preview my posts BEFORE I submit them..... )
Kristine...I have also seen our Harry in action and hardwired is a great word for him... I feel so sorry for Judi at times when she is in the ring with her boy. He is spot on and then....AND THEN.....whoosh!!!! He gets a whiff or a side view of 'something' and boy!! you can tell he is soooo trying to stay focused, he knows his mom WANTS him to stay focused, he IS staying focused..almost...almost..oops!!! There he goes!!!! But to Judi's credit, she IS able to get him back to the reality of the 'game'. I don't know how she does it!!!! But she does!!!!! |
Kristine, how about a few lifesized cardboard cut outs of yourself??  |
Mim wrote: Kristine, how about a few lifesized cardboard cut outs of yourself?? Good one! Kristine |
SheepieMommy wrote: Heck, my husband says the stupid dog gets excited over taking out the trash on trash day. : Had to laugh when I read this . Dutch starts barking and giving her happy hops all the way to the garage as soon as she sees me pick up the kitchen container |
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