Answer to peeing on legs (w/pics), but other problems
Not only that, we're having more and more moments to a point that I've been whispering to him how much I love him now. I'm sitting here with his head on my leg now and smiling. While this should have always been happening (saying I love you), it just really wasn't  I spend so much more time now sending the love vibe back to him that I'm feeling less stressed in general. He was driving me insane.
I wish I could have captured what happened next (pot falling over b/c leash got caught on a weed) b/c my crybaby started yelping and literally jumped in my arms. BIG baby. 
Pee away on those legs! 
Other problems that I'm open to suggestions or comments: I still haven't solved the chewing on our window sills and apparently cayenne pepper doesn't even stop him, but with every step forward... he's getting more and more time in the living room instead of having to stay in the dining room area, so... he "may" be growing out of it. My only other issue with him is the running away. With a trainer, we can now have the door bell ring, him not bark, and have him stay until called to come. Won't run out the door. HOWEVER, when given the freedom to be outside (front or backyard), he just runs away. If it's the backyard, he just doesn't come back. We keep him on a leash to go out and practice commands then, but... with a leash on, he just listens to the commands and comes. This doesn't solve my biggest fear of him escaping one day and not having that leash on. Normally if he races outside because he squeezed through our legs when we weren't expecting, there's always an extra adult there to chase him down, but my fear is one day there won't be... and I'll have to load the kids up in the car before chasing him ...and then by that time, have no idea where he is. I'm probably thinking too much. It's just strange to me because he KNOWS his commands and is a gentleman when the doorbell rings and WE ARE WATCHING HIM (and HE KNOWS IT) but if it's unexpected... he jets! |
|
|
| when you train the recall on a long line you have to be careful the cue is the come command (or whatever word you use) and not a tuf gon the leash. I learned that the hard way with beowulf. the long line is there as a safety not a tow line. |
Oh my, he's so adorable with his clever sox.  |
| boy that 1st photo is the devilish look, what a character.in the house vs in the yard were always two different behaviors. good luck. |
| ha ha--I was thinking picture#1 was a devilish look too! He's very cute, and I'm glad the socks are helping for now.
I have NO suggestions on the other stuff, though. |
| As Kerry said, make the recall command word consistantly the same. I used the word "front" when training Melody for obedience because she did a better front that way. With the dogs since her I have used the word "come" after their name. Means "I don't care what the devil you are doing you are expected to come & sit in front of me". Another thing to think about in training is a really solid "down". This can take a LONG time. Took over 1 year for me to get Melody to do it because she was so dominant & it was a submissive position. My others were solid in it in a matter of a few weeks. But in the event your boy does get away (say across the street to the neighbor's yard) it is safer to give him a "down/stay" command rather than have him come running across a street to you in the event the one car that comes down that street all week long comes at that precise moment. Another important thing to remember is as hard as it might me, scolding a dog or yelling at them just doesn't help. They already can sense you are upset with something they did...they just aren't sure what. But if you scold them & yell at them they surely don't want to come any closer to you (which is what YOU want for their safety) because the result is obviously not going to be pleasant. Hard to do for us humans but if you look at it from the dog's point of view it makes sense. Their main objective is to please you so they need to put 2 & 2 together. "I got to the back of the yard & Mom is calling me. If I run back to her I get hugs! YEAH! That sounds cool". Make any sense? |
^^ we use here - or in Morgan's case when he is being deaf, "cookie" works everytime 
But you know I do treat them most times I call them in from the yard - it does help reinforce the good stuff concept. |
kerry wrote: ^^ we use here - or in Morgan's case when he is being deaf, "cookie" works everytime
But you know I do treat them most times I call them in from the yard - it does help reinforce the good stuff concept. My first OES, all you had to do was wiggle the wrapper on a piece of American cheese & she came running!  |
| Mrs J, When does that window sill-chewing happen? When you are out of sight? Right in front of you? When no ones home?
Does he chew other (appropriate) things? The only chew-toy my dogs have ever liked have been flavored nylabones, and we now keep 3-5 of them around at all times. Bert was big into furniture chewing as a pup, and it was something he only grew completely out of after about a year and a half old. If your boy is still at it at 2 years, Id say boredom is a likely reason, especially if he does it when left alone. |
you could try bitter apple  or something a little more discouraging to chew. When my young colt wanted to chew me I would instead put a very rough brush with longer bristles where he was trying to chew or bite. A few mouthfuls of hard bristles everytime he went to chew made him stop. I am not sure exactly what you could use but the rough side of velcro or something rougher and longer might work. Obviously it would be better if you could be there to make sure that he can't actually eat the thing you covered it in. Maybe others have some ideas of objects that you could cover the sill in the short term. |
I know my dogs have all chewed on the the same windowsill I always blamed hubby - who was always home with them when it happened for ignoring them. If you can't watch him crate him instead of letting him redecorate. My house was new too - now it looks lived in (by a pack of hungry dogs  ) |
| dam husbands, who was watchin who?
|
ravenmoonart wrote: Mrs J, When does that window sill-chewing happen? When you are out of sight? Right in front of you? When no ones home?
Does he chew other (appropriate) things? The only chew-toy my dogs have ever liked have been flavored nylabones, and we now keep 3-5 of them around at all times. Bert was big into furniture chewing as a pup, and it was something he only grew completely out of after about a year and a half old. If your boy is still at it at 2 years, Id say boredom is a likely reason, especially if he does it when left alone. Well when no one is home or if we go upstairs... he's crated. We do not trust him. So it happen when we're right there. He never gets more than a few chews before we stop him but you times that by every day, and he's chomped it pretty good. You can "hear" him chewing it. I do think he's probably partly bored, has anxiety knowing that we're on the other side of the living room with yuki, and is dying to be there. The more he sees us, the more that brain starts to tick while his head is resting on the window sill. I'm trying to explain what we see/feel he's thinking when this happens. ... almost without thinking, puts his head on the window sill and starts chewing because his mouth conveniently is open just a tad landing the corner of the sill in his mouth I'm not sure that makes sense
He has lots of chews, and I switch them out all the time to give him variety, leaving the one he seems to enjoy the most. AND the reason why he's separated from us sometimes is because Yuki needs a break!!!! We don't blame her, so sometimes we separate them, ,and then Mequpak gets time over here and Yuki gets the other side. Of course they have time together too, but Yuki doesn't always want to play!! He gets walked twice a day, ...evening walk may not be as long as the morning. Kids wear him out a lot in the backyard, as does Yuki, and he has chews... so I feel we exercise him, but I guess he wants more. He's not a hyper dog at all, ...it seems more like he has anxiety? Chsheepdogs, that makes a lot of sense about the screaming, and I DEFINITELY DO IT!!! ...but the snot treats me no differently if I have a calm voice. I'm laughing over here because I've been trying to stay calm as we train sometimes and the dog knows when he's doing a negative. Mr. J is not a screamer at all, and treats him no differently. If anything, he respects and wants to please me the most. He's a good dog (despite my complaints he really is the sweetest angel ...sweetest bad angel). ...just wish he'd stay in the yard so I don't have to stress about him running away 
ETA: I caught an example of him doing it. Lil J's bus came early and was outside in front of our house. I ignored his barking because "it was too early" for him to be home. So he resorted to biting again. I grabbed the camera. Here's him standing on the crime scene. Literally paws over it.
Pic of entire area. I pushed the table in the middle against the middle window so he can't get to it and you better believe I've been nervous about that since I rather him chew the window sill than my table!! IT has worked for over a week though. I also moved the crate so it was up against the third window. Second pic is what he had started on that third window sill. I'm afraid of pushing my chairs up against the window (like the first window) because I will go be soooooooo upset if he starts chewing on them! 
 |
Quote: While this should have always been happening (saying I love you), it just really wasn't Ahh puppies lol Quote: I just remove the socks, stick in wash, and voila! My floors and rugs don't smell!!
Good idea, how many socks do you get through in a day? I'm guessing you change them after every toilet break? I wish I had thought of that when Ru was younger. He's not lifting his leg yet? I can't remember how old Ru was when he started that  Rufus nibbled the table & chair legs but they are really cheap and old so we didn't worry too much, it was when we left him in the back room alone. |
| As for the windowsills.................maybe time to replace with Hardrock Maple??? |
| Maybe!! The first thing everyone says is, surprised he hasn't got to the curtains. Considering all dogs like rags, etc ... I am counting my blessings! |
| Omigosh he is so cute!!! What an adorable fuzzball. I love the socks. Ingenious. |
Well...here's my 2 cents Ms. J I have an older female, and a younger male (as you know! ) and my basic attitude about what youre describing would be: So what if Yuki is annoyed? She's not elderly. infirm, or delicate!  Let her straighten the young brat out! Abby certainly never had any trouble telling Bert off when he was that age (no trouble now in fact ) I know its irritating to have them fussing at each other, but I really think you are correct about the anxiety...and keeping them so segregated probably contributes to that. If Meq really is being a jerk, you can you step in and tell him to stop without actually having to totally separate them? Is there actual fighting going on, or is she just irritated? |
ravenmoonart wrote: Well...here's my 2 cents Ms. J
I have an older female, and a younger male (as you know! ) and my basic attitude about what youre describing would be: So what if Yuki is annoyed? She's not elderly. infirm, or delicate! Let her straighten the young brat out! Abby certainly never had any trouble telling Bert off when he was that age (no trouble now in fact ) I know its irritating to have them fussing at each other, but I really think you are correct about the anxiety...and keeping them so segregated probably contributes to that. If Meq really is being a jerk, you can you step in and tell him to stop without actually having to totally separate them? Is there actual fighting going on, or is she just irritated?Your suggestion is worth well more than 2¢! The girls will let the boys know when they've had enough & want to be left alone & your Meq will understand Yuki language alot better than human language Believe me, she won't hurt him....she'll just teach him his place. |
| I've kept my two together too even though Tiggy had days where she drove Rastus nuts.
He sorted her out when it got too bad though. And now they play together great, unless Rastus misses her neck hair and gets her ear then she gives him a serve. It gets noisey and looks ugly but there have been no serious injuries, once Tiggy did scrape Rastus's leg with her claw and it scabbed a little but it didnt actually bleed. However Mrs J has little kids in the house so I really dont know if that's a solution in her circumstances. Watching what my too get up to I think its just too dangerous. At best they could knock the kids A over T and at worst with all the snapping they could accidentally bite the kids and it would be a face for sure given their relative heights. Also I think it would be just too darn scarey for the kids. Heck its scares me some days, and I wade in yelling at them to knock it off real quick.  |
ravenmoonart wrote: Well...here's my 2 cents Ms. J I have an older female, and a younger male (as you know! ) and my basic attitude about what youre describing would be: So what if Yuki is annoyed? She's not elderly. infirm, or delicate! Let her straighten the young brat out! Abby certainly never had any trouble telling Bert off when he was that age (no trouble now in fact ) I know its irritating to have them fussing at each other, but I really think you are correct about the anxiety...and keeping them so segregated probably contributes to that. If Meq really is being a jerk, you can you step in and tell him to stop without actually having to totally separate them? Is there actual fighting going on, or is she just irritated?Yes, yuki is just annoyed. We've never seen them fight like many people on here describe as play yet. I guess we worry because though her age is not "technically" old, she still acts like she's 10. We can tell her joints [or something] are starting to bother her. She now snaps at us when we try to get her to move (nothing we're concerned about yet and not at the children ...but then again, the children know what they can/can't do to the dogs). With that said, we've taken your advice and let mequpak on our said more. Could be because he has started on our wall unit in the dining room (sits against one of the dog pillows so conveniently has a nice edge sticking out near their mouth ...so of course we've moved the pillow completely!! poor yuki has no where soft to sit now )  Hopefully this passes. Mim, you are right and there are many times mequpak has done a number on Joshee (the only one not old enough to know when to back out of the way), but we look at those as learning experiences. Plus we keep hoping a certain doggy will take cue to our son screaming to death as it worked for Yuki, although it seems to be slower for mequpak. He's a lot more carefree ...not recognizing when anyone is hurt, including me. He took the knees out of huge bodybuilder in our neighborhood because he ran to him and slammed into his knees (the guy called him over but no one was expecting quite the slam or the lack of breaks on our dog). Of course he brings me down too and I just look at it as my fault for not screaming a command out in time or putting my hands out in front of me. |
POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE INFO BELOW I wanted to add that when I mean irritating, I mean nonstop humping. I took a video but I really think it may be a little R rated to post. Yes, we always let Yuki tell him no, but it's nonstop and it really doesn't seem to do anything. In fact, we think Yuki enjoys the licking half the time. She opens her legs and they both begin at it. To be frank about it. We try ignoring it, and it just gets worse (the munching down on each other). We also have no interest in seeing this constant "action." It's completely foul esp. because Mequpak will ALWAYS proceed to "squirt" like a male while it's happening and every time they stop and then start up again, he squirts everywhere. It stinks, and Yuki will then have this stuff on it or WE will because he squirts far!!! We have luck when we tell Mequpak to go to his place ...because he does, but the second he's allowed to move (he can't spend the entire day laying there), that's his only objective ...to begin to lick her again. Neither have any medical issues. |
 oh my... Are trainers saying to ignore it? We don't ignore obnoxious or nuisance dog behavior. Bumbie will still on occasion stand over the girls and... errr... put his equipment in their faces. He's told "off"... he usually complies. It's seldom that he'll hump (Kaytee) but he's also told "off". Dogs may be dogs but I'm not putting up with it. On the flip side, he won't sit quietly at the door when someone comes over... he's a spaz. We all have areas we need to work on. He will bat at 12 year old Maggie trying to get her to play and she'll tell him off. If it continues, we step in and send him the other way. Kaytee can't see that big paw coming at her so she tells him off. If he's too persistent, he's sent away from the dog. I don't believe that physically separating them will allow problems to be resolved. 3 minute time-outs can be used as a calm down period or to get their attention that behavior isn't acceptable. But they need to be together so correction or redirection can take place. I've only had one male but is it possible to train a male to stretch more when he pees... or to hike his leg so you're not bringing the pee indoors? |
I suppose it depends on how lazy the dog is. I have 2 intact males (father & son) & neither one of them goes on themselves. They might have as pups but not as adults. Occasionally there will be some on the tummy area but that's when they are in full coat. I don't remember having a problem with legs as adults. As for the humping problem....never had that problem either. I can tell either of them to stop it & they do. Maybe I just have well mannered boys?  |
Well didn't I get lucky then?  6girls, I have heard both: Let him do it, Yuki will correct him hard enough for him to stop. Hasn't happened, and Mequpak has a male's brain. He's not smart enough to listen, so he keeps coming back to listen to the nagging. Then I've heard to not tolerate it and stop it. I tell Mequpak to go to his place (dog bed next to tv in living room and then the other would be the dining room). ...but we do put them back together once they both seem calm. Oh, and we do tell Yuki to go to her place too. She's just better behaved and listens. I feel like he's brain is on lockdown. Only turned on when he wants. Just because with other dogs, they at least look at us when we tell them to do something, and then just ignore us (or maybe not take us seriously yet). He doesn't even look our way when we tell him to stop. He just continues. Like I said, we've gone through so many trainers. We'll continue to take the tips already given, practice a lot, and just pray ....and then pray some more. Oh and one of the trainers did successfully train two dogs to hike their leg. She also said it "could" be done but both (different people) have said mequpak is one of a kind and doesn't seem to respond like a typical dog. |
Quote: Well didn't I get lucky then? Well, yes you did  He's a beautiful boy! You'll work through this... for now it's a frustration.I don't think ignoring the licking will change anything... they're having too much... fun. I'd tell them to leave it and give them something else to focus on rather than each other. Let them stay where they are and maybe try a distraction. Will they both play with one toy or chew on 1 or 2 nylabones? You'll just need to be more persistent than him. Have you tried a noise that will startle to get his attention if he's ignoring you? |
| Have you had him around another male dog? Even one in the neighborhood that hikes his leg as he goes? The males a lot of times need to see it to understand it is easier. Some will still continue to squat. I find as they get older they tend to take the easy way out. At least my old guy, if he can't hike it long enough, does go next to the fence & can let his foot down on a wooden ledge that holds the gravel in. |
| Re the constant licking, my guess is she has or at the very least HAD an infection that would have attracted him to do that. I think if there is no infection now then it has probably become habit. I wouldn't let them keep doing that either. Not only is it annoying but Yuki will probably have irritated skin down there and could be getting infection after infection. I would take her in and get the vet to check for even the mildest infection and if there is then get that taken care of first. To break the habit for your boy maybe consider a soft muzzle while they are together? That way they can get used to spending their time together, you can reinforce the rules and he will hopefully forget that nasty habit? |
| Probably a dumb question Ms. J...but, is he intact then? Are you showing him? Ive had an intact male (Spencer) and he never did this, but Ive always heard that neutering young can sometimes prevent/stop this sort of behavior. I'll also second Willowsprite on the licking...Bert had chronic minor skin infections (luckily not THERE ) as a pup, and we had to really battle his licking "habit".Thank you for not posting pics ...I think your description alone has kinda traumatized me My fault for reading this first thing in the AM, before the coffee was brewed! |
ravenmoonart wrote: Probably a dumb question Ms. J...but, is he intact then? Are you showing him? Ive had an intact male (Spencer) and he never did this, but Ive always heard that neutering young can sometimes prevent/stop this sort of behavior. Actually neutering only stops this behavior in something like 35% of males. Mrs J - instead of go to place how about "no!!" Maybe he can't make the connection with the behavior as being objectionable. Morgan learned it wasn't an allowed behavior around Marley before he was neutered. Of course teaching him and B its not an allowed behavior in the dominance struggle between them has beee a little harder |
kerry wrote: ravenmoonart wrote: Probably a dumb question Ms. J...but, is he intact then? Are you showing him? Ive had an intact male (Spencer) and he never did this, but Ive always heard that neutering young can sometimes prevent/stop this sort of behavior. Actually neutering only stops this behavior in something like 35% of males. Mrs J - instead of go to place how about "no!!" Maybe he can't make the connection with the behavior as being objectionable. Morgan learned it wasn't an allowed behavior around Marley before he was neutered. Of course teaching him and B its not an allowed behavior in the dominance struggle between them has beee a little harder Wouldn't it at least stop the "squirting", though ? |
| Yes to neutered and before he was... he actually didn't pee on his legs, hump, or bite anything. POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE INFO BELOW I'd like to think I'm someone who is VERY quick to stop a bad/not acceptable behavior, but he's just as stubborn to doing what he wants. NO is the first thing we say, followed pulling their bodies apart. Yuki has grown so aggravated by the humping, she does it back to him but it's followed by a bodyslam. This only encourages the "play" for Mequpak even though it's clear to us Yuki is upset and running away. But the second they go back near each other, I usually yell for them to go to their place. Continue this 100 times after their time out. He does do well with distraction like if I decide to start grooming him or start cooking. Mequpak will follow me and forget all about Yuki ...until Yuki follows us and gives him her private. Yuki confuses us. If I call him over to me, we generally each have a dog under our leg (our leg being what locks them there), and they each calm down for awhile. There are peaceful moments.Someone mentioned Yuki having an infection before and we immediately got her checked even though she didn't visibly show any signs, and everything came back good. She hasn't had one in a LONG time. Probably not since we had Mequpak, ,but I could be wrong! They both just like the taste of each others goods, it seems. Although I don't see Yuki trying to lick up stuff that's squirted on our couch or us. ...and it's not like he squats or lifts a leg when it happens. It just comes out, along with the lipstick when he's been ....licked. I don't know where what I am writing will go, but I'm doing my best to describe the behaviors exactly as they occur, so my apologies. Yuki has increased her licking in her legs which she hasn't done in a long time, but I can't find anything infections yet. That's actually why we made a video awhile back. Sometimes we are holding Yuki down because she wants some peace, but Mequpak will bark like crazy and still climb up on Mr. J just to get to Yuki (this is just to hump not lick). Many times he'll just hump the air when he can't get to her. The muzzle idea sounds like a good idea! Worth a shot!! |
| Ok...um, this is the grossest yet, but what the heck is he "squirting" then? Urine? That doesn't seem....normal? Again...probably a dumb question, but have you talked to your vet... I mean specifically about the humping/licking/squirting/peeing on-himself problems? |
| Wasn't Mequpak cryptorcid? Were both testicles actually located and removed? Bumble's undescended testicle was found way up in his abdomen and was normal size. Sometimes they're small and very difficult to find. Just wondering if there's any chance one might still be there. I doubt it though... the vet surely would have mentioned it. I agree with Marilyn about getting him around a leg-hiking male. A friend's dog picked up the behavior... monkey see, monkey do. |
| I have to dredge up some very old info from anatomy/physiology over 20 years ago, but if I remember correctly and I make no promises, the prostate gland produces most of the seminal fluid and the testes a small amount plus the actual sperm, so neutering wont actually prevent his ability to "squirt" just his ability to reproduce. It is probably worth discussing this with your vet though. As I said its a long time ago and I studied human anatomy/physiology. There are a lot of similarities but some differences too. |
6Girls wrote: Wasn't Mequpak cryptorcid? Were both testicles actually located and removed? Bumble's undescended testicle was found way up in his abdomen and was normal size. Sometimes they're small and very difficult to find. Just wondering if there's any chance one might still be there. I doubt it though... the vet surely would have mentioned it. Yes, he made it a point to tell me how hard it was to find, how tiny it was, and that he found it. He even offered to let me see it. It just feels good to let this all out. I've never had trouble training or loving a dog, so I'm very hurt by this new experience. I'll have to search harder for a male large dog for him to play with too. |
Joahaeyo wrote: Yes, he made it a point to tell me how hard it was to find, how tiny it was, and that he found it. He even offered to let me see it. It just feels good to let this all out. I've never had trouble training or loving a dog, so I'm very hurt by this new experience. I'll have to search harder for a male large dog for him to play with too. I am so sorry. I can’t imagine how hard this must be. It's so unfair that it is in SUCH a cute package. I hope something happens to make it all easier. I wish I had some suggestions.  |
| i wish i lived closer my boys will set him straight.. there is one dog a lab that humps duffy every time he sees him and dreamer will bark and circle and nip at the labs butt .. stops that.. and i thought the lab would show my boys how to lift their leg but a no go for either.. also if dreamer trys to chew on anything duffy nails him everytime everything is duffys i hate it but is has been easy to train dreamer he never has touched a thing in the house ,, but i am waiting now for dream to wise up with duffy then all h-ll will break loose.. hang in there |
| I'm resurrecting this thread in order to update it. I just can't bear to leave the reason for his behavior untold if someone stumbles upon this post. I also want to provide information in case someone else out there is Googling for a possible off the wall reason for their dog's obsessive sexual behaviors. Note that this post will be graphic, possibly crude, at times. This is a REALLY long, rambling post so if you just want the important part, it's this... #1 There was a reason for Kobuck's obnoxious and obsessive behaviors described above- he wasn't neutered. #1 Mrs. J and her family are wonderful dog people... this boy had been very well cared for and loved. #1 Kobuck is another example that Bugaboo dogs are exceptional companion dogs. The vet's office even commented that, "You can do anything to this dog!" and "Your other dogs are wonderful but this boy is exceptional!". #1 Cryptorchid dogs must have that undescended/retained testicle removed... there can be serious health and behavioral consequences if it's left behind. Each one of the things listed above is equally important. Kobuck was cryptorchid and had been neutered at around 7 1/2 months of age. This is Mrs. J's picture of his incision sites- http://photos.oes.org/displayimage.php?pos=-30150 He just turned 2 years old October 1st and while he had been surgically neutered a year before, we found he still had a retained testicle in his abdomen. He was successfully neutered a second time last month. Kobuck flew to us on July 26, 2010. Before he arrived, I called my vet and asked whether we could check his testosterone level (or whatever he was squirting) to verify he was truly neutered so we could focus on training alone. She said we could but she wanted to research the best test to do. We made the 4 1/2 hour trip to Detroit to meet our new boy! We quarantined him the first 10 days... he had been walked at the airport and while totally vaccinated, we didn't want to chance bringing something in. After his introduction, we quickly witnessed the same obsessive behaviors during his first few weeks with the pack that Mrs. J had shared above. I lived with intact males as a kid but none were like this boy! The plan was to have a zero tolerance level for any inappropriate behavior and to correct it immediately each time it happened. Exasperating best described the first weeks with the pack. We would stop the behavior only to have it start again minutes later and it was repeated over and over again. He required constant supervision. He persistently tried to mount and hump... licking the other dogs privates... drooling over dog pee in the yard... whining... non-stop shadowing of other dogs in order to lick/mount. And yes, Mrs. J... we did later find that he was squirting "stuff". When he got too persistent, tethering him to the door worked well because it allowed the pack could get to know him... it also allowed the other dogs to get way from him if he got too intense. It was a compromise that also allowed him to play and interact with the other dogs. And at times he would be put in his bedroom for quiet time in order to give everyone else a break. Playing while tethered to the front door... my work desk is next to it. Sigh... Kaytee was being a twit.  The testosterone test we had done in mid-August was an hCG Stimulation test. It's about a $300 test but would give us the information we needed. They drew blood for testing, injected the HCG, waited about an hour and did another blood draw. The blood was sent to a lab for testing... in this case, the University of Tennessee Clinical Endocrinology Service. Below is info about this type of test- Quote: http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/memon/ivis.pdf The use of Human Chorionic Gonadothophin HCG or Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH Stimulation Test for inducing a measurable testosterone increase is recommended. Commercial bovine GnRH products, Cystoreline or Factrel may be used. The standard protocol for this test is to determine testosterone level in a blood sample drawn before and 60 minutes after injection of GnRH at doses of 2 Ug/KG or 50 ug/kg , IM. Testosteroine being increased in the post-treatment blood sample would, in such cases, be diagnostic for a cryptorchid dog. My vet was out of the country for 2 weeks... the results came in before she returned- This Lab's Normal Testosterone Ranges- Neutered Male: 0.01 to 0.24 Intact Male: 0.19 to 26.3 Kobuck: Testosterone Dogs: 6.38 (25x higher than a neutered male) Testosterone STIM: 12.02 Lab Note: "There was a significant response to hCG stimulation." So the test results showed Kobuck had a testosterone level 25x higher than a normal neutered male. Two reasons this can occur... a dog is still intact or there is a tumor that is producing testosterone. Because Kobuck wasn't quite two years old, it was likely that he still had testicular tissue somewhere in him. At this point, I did offer to return him because there was a reason for his behavior and a chance he might be "fixed". While we waited for our vet to return, we requested a low dose anxiety pill. My view is we treat suffering dogs for health problems, we should also treat dogs suffering from behavior problems as we work to fix the problem. Kobuck was going to be part of this pack so I could not risk the pack hating him as Yuki did!! So for a few weeks he received 2mg of Diazepam (Valium). It's a very low dose that just took the edge off at the worst time of the day which was first thing in the morning. It was the excitement of bringing the pack together after a gated separation that needed to be toned down. He needed to safely learn pack etiquette, when to leave other dogs alone, and better control of himself and his urges. So we focused solely on training, redirection and limits and he did amazingly well. Pre-surgery jitters the morning of surgery... you know the worrywart that I am. I knew the plan for locating and following the vas deferens but I also knew there was a chance that Doc might open him up, search all over and not be able to locate the testicular tissue. I also worried about the cancer risk if it couldn't be found. I hated putting him through a surgery and asked Doc whether I was doing the right thing because he had come SO FAR in learning better control and manners in just a matter of weeks. The answer was a definitive "yes". On September 22, he had a laparotomy... my vet made an abdominal incision, in front of the penis this time http://oesusa.com/index.1417.jpg , and within 5 minutes located a retained testicle in the right inguinal area of the abdomen. I can't tell you how relieved I was that it had been found and removed! It was a normal size for a retained testicle- http://oesusa.com/index.1415.jpg . I know people thought I was foolish to pursue testing despite photographic and written proof that Kobuck had been neutered a year before. That's ok... I doubted myself at times too. There were a few other things that pointed to the possibility that he might still have a retained testicle... aside from his behaviors. He had a large prepuce for a dog neutered at the age of 7 1/2 months... upon seeing him initially, our vet thought he was still intact or had been neutered only recently. And Mrs. J told me she regretted having neutered him because his behavior was perfectly fine BEFORE he was neutered... it was only AFTER he had been neutered that the problems began. I wondered if he was coming of age as an intact male. Also, the two incisions off to the side puzzled me (NOT that I'm a vet!... just a non-educated observation)... I could understand one incision site off to the side if an undescended testicle could be palpated in that area, but why were there two? He looked like a duck and quacked like a duck... though there was no way he still should have BEEN a duck, he was still a duck. This is the first time I've ever run across this. His transformation after the surgery was thrilling in some ways. 2-3 weeks post-op, the intense sniffing with profuse drooling over urine in the yard just stopped. He started to empty his bladder in the one spot... he no longer marked all over the yard with small amounts of urine. We no longer have to correct him for marking. There's no more mounting though that behavior had subsided greatly by the time he was neutered the second time. All the times we said, "OFF!!" paid off. He now normally sniffs other dogs... he's not obsessively trying to lick the other dogs' genitals and drooling. He didn't have a full erection but 2 1/2" (that's an estimate, I didn't actually take a measurement ) was often hanging out due to his level of excitement throughout play. That seldom happens now. He has better focus on play and toys because he's not focusing on that other type of interaction. Oh... and he recently learned to lie down with just a verbal command and he'll now do anything for food where before he was somewhat indifferent to it. Really, I was kind of shocked the changes happened so quickly and that the bell could be un-rung. Then too, we weren't dealing with a mean dog, just a persistent lover, so maybe this is why the changes were so quick in coming once the testosterone levels started to fall. We do have a new problem though... he focuses much more on toys and play now so he's stealing toys off the counter/table/etc. so he can play with them. He'll snag a toy and take it to the couch to play with. But that's just normal dog stuff and I'm confident we can correct it. Just some thoughts... They say that cryptrochid dogs can be "aggressive". Kobuck was not aggressive in a mean way... there is not a mean bone in this boy's body!! But... he was aggressive sexually meaning it was near impossible to redirect him for any length of time. It was odd because later on, he focused solely on Bumble... he no longer pursued the girls. Quote: http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/4 ... y-Dog.aspx A small percentage of male dogs become attractive to intact male dogs after being neutered. Other male dogs may become sexually aroused and try to mount your neutered dog. There is a very in depth article on cryptorchid puppies and dogs at the following address. He had a large prepuce for a dog that was neutered at 7 1/2 months of age- Quote: http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advi ... idism.html Bilaterally cryptorchid dogs, like entire dogs, tend to be large in size with highly developed body muscling (their muscles are more developed because of the androgenic steroid effects of the testosterone in their bodies). They often have big male heads (you only need to look at the large skull size of an entire male Rottweiler or American Pitbull Terrier to appreciate this) and much thicker skin than their desexed male counterparts and they tend to be leaner than castrated dogs, due to their higher metabolic rates (they often have much less fat cover). Their testicles and prepuces are often more pendulous and well-developed than their castrated male counterparts. We often have a firm belief that we know just how bad something can be. But this belief is often only based on what we know and have experienced up to that moment. Jim had said that while there was no question we would have made it work, it was at first very frustrating. We had never experienced a dog like this. But in a matter of weeks he began to change and since his second neuter, he's become a totally different dog. Jim would later say that we would have kept him forever no matter what but it wouldn't have been easy. He now says this is NOT the same dog we brought in... the change over the past 2 1/2 months and since he was truly neutered is nothing short of profound. He now has free run of the house with all the pack except Meesha... he's played outdoors with her twice just recently. He does still "kennel-up" for meals, bedtime and if we have to run an errand but his kennel is a bedroom with a queen size bed. He's a wonderful boy... thank you Mrs. J for sending him to us.  Just some recent pictures of Kobuck with The Pack-  |
| Thank you for taking the time to update this "dead" thread. Wonderful information and I'm so happy to see the improved Kobuck! Although, I have to say, I never had any doubt in Mrs. J! |
| Jaci or Jo - This may be a dumb question...but didn't the 1st vet who did his neuter realize he only removed 1 testicle? I have neutered/castrated animals most of my adult life...and it is REAL obvious if you have 1 or 2. So what was the scoop on that part of it?....just very curious |
| I'm kinda curious too. I had a cryptorchid and I had no idea what that word was until I had one. The vet informed me and he did the neuter making three incisions searching for the hidden one. |
got sheep wrote: Jaci or Jo - This may be a dumb question...but didn't the 1st vet who did his neuter realize he only removed 1 testicle? I have neutered/castrated animals most of my adult life...and it is REAL obvious if you have 1 or 2. So what was the scoop on that part of it?....just very curious Me too! I've been trying to figure that one out since you first mentioned that he still had one testicle. Maybe you should get half your money back Jo seeing as it was only half a neuter. |
Quote: This may be a dumb question...but didn't the 1st vet who did his neuter realize he only removed 1 testicle? Mrs. J was told the undescended testicle had been located and removed... that it was really small. My vet wondered if a lymph node might have been removed but said that it would be really difficult to mistaken the two. Or that maybe someone less experienced actually did his surgery. Since it was stated two testicles had been surgically removed with the first neuter, my vet said she did take time while he was open to be sure there was only one retained testicle. I've never heard of this happening before but it probably has. It's proof though that it can still happen even with today's advanced veterinary care. If there is any doubt whether a cryptorchid dog or an appears-to-already-be-neutered rescue comes through, a testosterone test may provide the answer. The HCG test would be cost prohibitive to rescues but maybe there's another less expensive test that could be run. I don't really know. I did come across this post by a veterinarian on a message board... not sure what applies. http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=54512 Quote: One note of the first veterinarian's surgery. For a normal anatomically gifted pet, the neuter surgery (castration) is not one given to leaving testicular tissue. Barring something very unusual, it would almost require an active decision to leave testicular tissue. Thus if testicular tissue was left behind then this would be a high suspicion for congenital deformation leading to the 'difficulty' of the neuter. Some dogs (and even people) can be born with an 'extra' testicle. The cells that are meant to become a testicle somehow get a little separated an a separate 'testicle' or testicular tissue forms. So however this occurs, I would not want the first veterinarian to be 'blamed' for something which likely would not be her/his fault. It's bittersweet really. This sweet boy was way more difficult for the J Family than he ever should have been because, unbeknown to them, he wasn't really neutered. But it was his difficult behavior that would eventually lead to eliminating the cancer risk associated with a retained testicle and putting an end to these particular behaviors.  |
Jaci-- all I can say is this: You are amazing!!! |
Abuckie wrote: Jaci-- all I can say is this: You are amazing!!! I've had no internet/phone/cable for two days (ohmygoshhhhhhhhhhhh) ...but it's so nice to come back to posts like this!! I agree with Abuckie. Thank you for everything. My husband and I are so glad he found you. I love looking at the pictures. He's such a goober. Glad he's got many girl(fur)friends to choose from ...and even though it was already answered correctly, yes... the vet not only said he found it, but he offered to show me b/c he was so proud of himself for finding it b/c he said it was so small! I said no, b/c his excitement was enough for me to at least believe him. :/ |
OK, stupid question of the year. Is it possible Kobuck had a third testical forming and that's what the vet found.  People get third nipples. |
| Geez, right after I asked the "dumb" question, I remembered SheepieBoss had the answer; viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13120&hilit=third+testical Seems I keep getting caught up in testical conversations. |
| Noooo... we're nothing unusual. And please don't think we have the best behaved/trained pack because we REALLY don't. But one thing they do well is coexist. We set the rules and limits and while pack members still test/push some of these on occasion, they also help us to enforce them. Thankfully in a just manner. Appropriate behavior around dogs was a problem so dogs also had to be part of the solution. Sheepdogma wrote: OK, stupid question of the year. Is it possible Kobuck had a third testical forming and that's what the vet found. People get third nipples. Yeah, I had mentioned that to Mrs. J and Doug back in mid-August when I got the HCG Stimulation test results back. I came across the online post below by a vet in California. I think they thought I was batty.  The testicle removed recently was a normal size for a retained testicle. We can't change the what happened to the J Family and Kobuck. But we can possibly help prevent it from happening to someone else by sharing information... #1 It is possible for a surgically neutered dog to still be intact. #2 Inadvertently leaving a cryptorchid dog intact can cause serious health and behavior problems. #3 There is a test that will verify whether a cryptorchid dog is truly neutered. Quote: http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=54512 One note of the first veterinarian's surgery. For a normal anatomically gifted pet, the neuter surgery (castration) is not one given to leaving testicular tissue. Barring something very unusual, it would almost require an active decision to leave testicular tissue. Thus if testicular tissue was left behind then this would be a high suspicion for congenital deformation leading to the 'difficulty' of the neuter. Some dogs (and even people) can be born with an 'extra' testicle. The cells that are meant to become a testicle somehow get a little separated an a separate 'testicle' or testicular tissue forms. So however this occurs, I would not want the first veterinarian to be 'blamed' for something which likely would not be her/his fault. Goober... yes, that's Kobuck! It took a little time for him to show us his silly side... he's begun to blossom and feel at home. His outdoor play group is with Emma, Darby and Bumble. He can run like a wild man and he still body slams on occasion... he's doing better but we still have to supervise closely outdoors. Because of this, he can't play outdoors with Panda (hip dysplasia), Maggie (sheesh... she's going to be 13) and Kaytee (basically blind). Here's a video of Darby and Kobuck playing this morning after the group had played together. Darby's still a little unsure of exactly what he's going to do (the teeth snapping she's doing) but both enjoyed the wrestling match. http://oesusa.com/DarbyAndKobuck101910.html Yes, Darby's a fruitloop but Kobuck seems to think she's hunky-dunky and is allowing her to pin/smoosh him. It was cute because just before this, Darby went over to him when he was lying down outside to rest and laid down right next to him. I think she kinda likes him. But she'll holler at him if she's lying down on the couch and Kobuck is getting rowdy with Bumble and jumping on the couch next to her. |
| It's amazing to see him play and not be heading towards a private or mounting!! Wow..totally different!! I guess it's hard to understand for anyone else unless... someone knew HOW MUCH he did it. |
| The still pictures can capture a second in time... we sort through them for the best shots. But a video, while still just a minute or two, can better convey a behavior. I remember this with Kaytee... we expected a feeble little puppy because of the photographs... then Kaye sent us a video of Kaytee toddling all over the place. Joahaeyo wrote: It's amazing to see him play and not be heading towards a private or mounting!! Wow..totally different!! I guess it's hard to understand for anyone else unless... someone knew HOW MUCH he did it. That's it exactly... you would have had to experience him! I honestly don't know how you did it for so long. There were times it was easier and less stressful to just separate him from the others. We all needed a break!! But we had to put him right back in the pack so he had the opportunity to repeat the behaviors and so we (meaning Jim, me and the dogs) would be able to show him it wouldn't be tolerated. Just my opinion for what it's worth... He was nipped a few times by Panda, Bumble and Darby when his behavior was persistently inappropriate. It was just enough for him to understand he was being obnoxious and they didn't like it. Some dogs will put up with a lot before giving a correction which only prolongs the inappropriate behavior. But you can't make a dog make an appropriate level of correction. (That's why Meesha's introductions are drawn out over months, not weeks.) Another thing is that when a dog is separated from the pack for really any amount of time, they often become over excited/exuberant when the pack is brought back together... that source and level of excitement wasn't good so he had to be with the pack as much as possible. Kobuck's behavior was based on a physical urge that was compelling him to act out. If someone had told me neutering and intense supervision/correction/redirection could make a profound change and in such a short time, I would not have believed it. But this is just one dog and he wasn't a mean one. Had he been crabby or a biter, I don't think the change would have been so quick and probably not as drastic. He was just lying on the coach, rolling around on his back in doggy-bliss. Maggie's butt was right next to his head. He ignored her completely and focused only on his rolling around.  |
| wow this entire thread has been so intresting and turning out to be good for all jaci is our hero |
6Girls wrote: The still pictures can capture a second in time... we sort through them for the best shots. But a video, while still just a minute or two, can better convey a behavior. I remember this with Kaytee... we expected a feeble little puppy because of the photographs... then Kaye sent us a video of Kaytee toddling all over the place. Joahaeyo wrote: It's amazing to see him play and not be heading towards a private or mounting!! Wow..totally different!! I guess it's hard to understand for anyone else unless... someone knew HOW MUCH he did it. That's it exactly... you would have had to experience him! I honestly don't know how you did it for so long. There were times it was easier and less stressful to just separate him from the others. We all needed a break!! But we had to put him right back in the pack so he had the opportunity to repeat the behaviors and so we (meaning Jim, me and the dogs) would be able to show him it wouldn't be tolerated. Just my opinion for what it's worth... He was nipped a few times by Panda, Bumble and Darby when his behavior was persistently inappropriate. It was just enough for him to understand he was being obnoxious and they didn't like it. Some dogs will put up with a lot before giving a correction which only prolongs the inappropriate behavior. But you can't make a dog make an appropriate level of correction. (That's why Meesha's introductions are drawn out over months, not weeks.) Another thing is that when a dog is separated from the pack for really any amount of time, they often become over excited/exuberant when the pack is brought back together... that source and level of excitement wasn't good so he had to be with the pack as much as possible. Kobuck's behavior was based on a physical urge that was compelling him to act out. If someone had told me neutering and intense supervision/correction/redirection could make a profound change and in such a short time, I would not have believed it. But this is just one dog and he wasn't a mean one. Had he been crabby or a biter, I don't think the change would have been so quick and probably not as drastic. He was just lying on the coach, rolling around on his back in doggy-bliss. Maggie's butt was right next to his head. He ignored her completely and focused only on his rolling around. This sounds crazy I know-- but as I was reading this last entry, I started crying. Kobuck is such a sweetheart, and I am so glad this situation was handled as it was. It only goes to show, that when handled properly, things work out for everyone. Just amazing. Kobuck could have easily been a "throw away" if he had started his journey at some place besides the J's. They are loving and caring people, who knew Kobuck needed more than they could give at the moment. They loved him enough to put him in the arms of Jaci, Jim and their "crew". And THEY in turned cared enough to continue to find the answers that made Kobuck's story complete. I can only imagine how hard it was for HIM.... a physical urge that he couldn't help, but, it got him put in time out. Kobuck had to be confused. To tell you the truth, I'm suprised he stayed as happy as he did through all of this. Just goes to show what a trooper he is!I can't say it enough-- to all involved, you are AWSOME! |
| Oooh, noooo, Suzi! I didn't risk anything in an effort to do good or protect. I adore this breed and when I see/hear of a problem, I have to try to fix it or make it better. Friends know that I'd always choose the special, sweet tempered ones. I've learned so much from these dogs!Quote: as I was reading this last entry, I started crying. Thanks for sharing this, Lori. I felt this was vindication... for Kobuck, Mrs. J and Kobuck's breeder. Kobuck certainly isn't the first neutered dog that was still intact but it's got to be uncommon. "It's not his fault." "He just can't help it." Jim and I sometimes said this to each other when giving Kobuck a timeout after hearing the test results. I was told a well known dog person once said that meds were a lazy way to address behavior problems in dogs. I disagree. Meds and training or desensitizing is a kinder approach sometimes when something is beyond a dog's ability to control. He just needed a little help until he could have his surgery. |
6Girls wrote: I was told a well known dog person once said that meds were a lazy way to address behavior problems in dogs. I disagree. Meds and training or desensitizing is a kinder approach sometimes when something is beyond a dog's ability to control. He just needed a little help until he could have his surgery. I agree with you that meds can be an integral part of treating dogs who need help. But I think the dog person may have been talking about situations where owners who are too busy/lazy to work with the dog just go straight for the med solution and dont bother with any attempt at behavioural interventions. I could be wrong about their perspective but I have seen that often. The owners just want to sedate the dog, they dont want to spend time exercising and training their dog. In fact I was really angry recently when I saw an owner hitting her dog over the muzzle for whining in excitment at sheep. She actually wanted him to learn to herd sheep then she whacked him for whining while another dog had its turn. Heck, Tiggy had to have time out in the car as she would get to barking like crazy she was so excited. But I would NEVER hit her for being excited about sheep and dogs running around a pen. That's just not fair. This owner wanted a dog who would switch on and herd sheep then switch off and sit quietly while other dogs herded and she wouldnt go in the pen with the sheep herself. You guys are a completely different story. You were using meds to help Kobuck while you worked with the issue. Not just as a on its own solution. That's why we are all so in awe of how you and the J family and Kobuck's breeder have worked together to help Kobuck. Its so fantastic to know that there are people who care enough about their dog to not let ego and emotion get in the way. My hat's off to the J family and you guys. |
| that is really too bad to hear about the treatment of "whining" to get at the sheep. A smack in the nose seems like all it might accomplice is developing a fear of someones hand and may want to make the bite at hand in the long run. Bella did bark obsessively to "get at the sheep" but my trainer actually said "let her bark" and she would just move her to face a corner of the pen until she learned that she needed to have "quiet controlled" interest in the sheep to herd/have her sheep. Three lessons in and Bella has learned more control of her "emotions" and barks less and now is approaching them with control. You might want to try that with Tiggy next time. At Bella's instinct testing she barked none stop for 7 min and now only occasionally barks. |
Quote: In fact I was really angry recently when I saw an owner hitting her dog over the muzzle for whining in excitment at sheep. She actually wanted him to learn to herd sheep then she whacked him for whining while another dog had its turn. I totally agree... too many people want the quick fix. I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned this but maybe there are times when a dog would benefit from meds alone if it would curb the behavior that might cause a lazy owner to hit him/her. |
sheepiegail wrote: that is really too bad to hear about the treatment of "whining" to get at the sheep. A smack in the nose seems like all it might accomplice is developing a fear of someones hand and may want to make the bite at hand in the long run. Bella did bark obsessively to "get at the sheep" but my trainer actually said "let her bark" and she would just move her to face a corner of the pen until she learned that she needed to have "quiet controlled" interest in the sheep to herd/have her sheep. Three lessons in and Bella has learned more control of her "emotions" and barks less and now is approaching them with control. You might want to try that with Tiggy next time. At Bella's instinct testing she barked none stop for 7 min and now only occasionally barks. Thanks I'll keep that in mind, so far Tiggy has hardly barked while she was in the pen (too busy running ). She only barked when she was waiting her turn, that's why she got time out in the car. I didn't think it was fair on the other dogs and their owners to have a loud running commentary on their dog's performance. After 4 time outs of 5 to 10 minutes, she seemed to be actually starting to get the idea that if she was quiet she could stay and watch but if she barked she was outta there. |
6Girls wrote: Quote: In fact I was really angry recently when I saw an owner hitting her dog over the muzzle for whining in excitment at sheep. She actually wanted him to learn to herd sheep then she whacked him for whining while another dog had its turn. I totally agree... too many people want the quick fix. I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned this but maybe there are times when a dog would benefit from meds alone if it would curb the behavior that might cause a lazy owner to hit him/her. I guess there might be circumstances where this would work but unless the owner is prepared to work with the dog then its either an issue that will likely come back or the dog is on meds for the rest of its life. |
Didn't find exactly what you're looking for? Search again here:
Custom Search
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|