Ruined Valentines Day...
*sigh* I'm so upset right now... Anyways, we have yet to decide if we should follow through with this breeder or not, who is a reputable breeder and on the OES club of America site, because of not giving us enough details of their contract, when requested. Any suggestions as to what I should do? Do any of you know of reputable OES breeders who have puppies? Can you send me their contact info please? Any help would be greatly appreciated... What a way to ruin Valentines day, huh? So sad... |
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| I'm sorry you're feeling this way and for the whole situation.
What detail in the contract has you upset? |
Ron wrote: What detail in the contract has you upset?
Good question Ron, would be interesting to know |
| Are you getting a companion or a show dog? The only reason that I ask is because usually the contracts are quite different. What about the contract is an issue for you? I do know there are often things that bother some people, like co-owning, but really, all the breeder wants is a dog in a good home. Have they actually shown you a physical copy of a contract or is new information just coming verbally? |
| Sorry to hear you're having problems.
I cant help but I hope its gets sorted out and you have your puppy soon.  |
| The problem is that I have been asking to see the contract I will be expected to sign for about 3 weeks now, and they have responded with they are working on sending it to me. But that the contract would just be that they would be the approve of a stud (which is fine with me), I would have my dogs hips and eyes checked prior to breeding (also good for me) and that I would only breed her twice (fine with that as well). Then today when they emailed me... still without the actual contract, they added that I would also have to give them 1 puppy from the 1st litter, I understand this is common, and I don't really have an issue with it however, I feel that it was slid in there, as if I wouldn't catch it... and it was never discussed in any of our previous conversations.
I'm not here to bash the breeder, as i feel that they are a very respectable breeder, but I feel that important information needs to be disclosed, or else the purchaser (me) might feel that they are walking into this, with details not clear, that could be added or changed at any given moment. I just wish it was information they told me upfront, as it is important to the quality of the relationship between the breeder and myself. I just kind of feel like I've been a little misled. It is partly my fault as well, as I should have asked, but I feel I would have known a lot soon had I gotten the contract when I initially requested. Still trying to figure out what to do...  |
Sheepie_luvs wrote: The problem is that I have been asking to see the contract I will be expected to sign for about 3 weeks now, and they have responded with they are working on sending it to me. But that the contract would just be that they would be the approve of a stud (which is fine with me), I would have my dogs hips and eyes checked prior to breeding (also good for me) and that I would only breed her twice (fine with that as well). Then today when they emailed me... still without the actual contract, they added that I would also have to give them 1 puppy from the 1st litter, I understand this is common, and I don't really have an issue with it however, I feel that it was slid in there, as if I wouldn't catch it... and it was never discussed in any of our previous conversations.
I'm not here to bash the breeder, as i feel that they are a very respectable breeder, but I feel that important information needs to be disclosed, or else the purchaser (me) might feel that they are walking into this, with details not clear, that could be added or changed at any given moment. I just wish it was information they told me upfront, as it is important to the quality of the relationship between the breeder and myself. I just kind of feel like I've been a little misled. It is partly my fault as well, as I should have asked, but I feel I would have known a lot soon had I gotten the contract when I initially requested. Still trying to figure out what to do... After commenting on docking I have been told many times that America is the land of the free but not when you buy a puppy, correct me if I am wrong but when you purchase a puppy money changes hands and you become the owner unless a co-ownership is arranged with the breeder, I agree with the clause that if you can no longer takecare of the pup then the breeder should be given first choice but then it stops there, a breeder is correct to recommend health checks but cannot and has no right enforce this recommendation in my opinion. After buying the pup and you decide you want to breed then I cannot see where the breeder thinks he / she has the right to demand a pup from the first litter considering you purchased the dog / bitch in the first place. Seems to me America is the land of the free but only if it suits the occassion. |
| HAHAHA... thank you for the laugh. I can see why you say that. I wish there wasn't contracts. They have whats called a "no breeding" contract, which means you sign a contract saying you will get your dog fixed, and send them proof, before they allow you to register your dog. Most of the show dog breeders require you to get a championship under your dog, plus 2 puppies from the first litter...it's gotten kind of out of control if you ask me, but if you want their dog... you have to play by their rules... regardless if you like it or not.
My main issue is that I was trying to be open and honest about my intentions with the dog to the breeder, and I expected that back... but then they slipped this "we want a puppy from your 1st litter" in, like it was no big deal... which it is and it isn't... to them it obviously is, to me, it kind of sucks, but really the irritating part of it that they skated around without telling me this specific clause for over a month. I have no issue giving a puppy back, it's pretty standard in the breeding world in the US. I would have no issues following through with a contract I sign... IF I AM AWARE OF THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT. I like to think of myself as an honest person, upfront and I have no issues saying my expectations... but I can not meet expectations if I don't know that they are being expected of me. And it's only fair to let me be aware of those expectations. And the fact that they slid this detail in like it was nothing, kind of bothers me... borderline disrespectful to just assume? I'd love to have an OES from outside the US... how much would that cost me? How does that work? Probably too much to even bother trying to figure it out, but I'd be interested in knowing. |
I don't know anything about puppy contracts, co owning, or breeding rights, but I'd be upset as well. It doesn't seem up front to me either. Sorry for your V-day...go dunk in chocolate  |
dairymaid wrote: Seems to me America is the land of the free but only if it suits the occassion.[/color][/b]
If you're new to the breed/breeding, probably the only way you're going to get a dog on anything except a limited registration/spay/neuter agreement is to co-own, since it's the breeder's reputation on the line. Translation: as the breeder, if rescue starts getting dogs in with your dogs immediately behind them, or even close behind them, it's your reputation in the toilet. So, yes, that tends to lend itself to control freak-ism. I don't know about the rest since I've never gotten a dog on a contract, nor have I ever paid for one, though they've come with strings and co-ownerships attached, strings that were known and acceptable to both us. It's kind of odd for a long time breeder not to have a sort of standard issue contract, one for pets, one for show prospects. But amendments may need to be made depending on the situation, I suppose, and maybe this is a new situation for this particular breeder. Three weeks heads up time doesn't seem terrible to me, but it's the buyer who has to feel comfortable with the agreement too, so that's not for me to say. There is a litter back East. Not sure if there are any show prospects - I was told there's a performance prospect, though. A male, however. (and translation: needs an experienced, active home that will give him a job or he'll probably turn the place upside down <vbg> ) Bottomline for the poster is if they're not comfortable with the situation, they should do as they're proposing and follow their gut and move on. Oh, and Stewart, as an aside, a sub-section of American (and South American) non-show, shall we say, breeders are not unaware of the fact that it's easier to get dogs out of European breeders with no strings attached apparently, because a couple of your most visible kennel names are now liberally showing up in some American rescue dogs pedigrees. It's a way to advertise "championship lines". And then do no health testing and breed to whatever is available locally. Not something I'd want my name or reputation attached to, you know? Kristine |
| Nothing good can come of being upset by this and making a lifetime enemy, especially since it is "common practice" in your own words and perhaps they expected you to know. Or whatever the situation was. It's a small community and you stand to ruin your own enjoyment in showing your dogs through animosity.
My advice to you would be this: If you can get past it, assume it was just a miscommunication, make peace and love your new puppy. If you just can't get past it, assume it was a miscommunication, make peace and walk away as friends. |
Ron wrote: Nothing good can come of being upset by this and making a lifetime enemy, especially since it is "common practice" in your own words and perhaps they expected you to know. Or whatever the situation was. It's a small community and you stand to ruin your own enjoyment in showing your dogs through animosity.
My advice to you would be this: If you can get past it, assume it was just a miscommunication, make peace and love your new puppy. If you just can't get past it, assume it was a miscommunication, make peace and walk away as friends. I think this is good advice, thank you. I think I will come to a decision as soon I get a response from her. We've already decided how we will handle it if she reacts to my email unpleasantly or if she decides to handle it properly. Part of me is already emotionally attached to this specific OES, so my intention is to just clarify the details... thats really all I'm asking. The breeder is well aware that I am new to all this, and I feel should have known that details like this should have been discussed. I do believe the breeder has a standard contract, just getting it email ready is the issue, and there are some amendments to their standard contract that they are working on it with... I'm willing to be patient for someone who is willing to work with me, and be upfront with me... but I'm frustrated that one of their details just popped up, like it was no issue, when I had no idea of it being expected. I am upset and emotional about todays events, yes... as to be expected. I also feel that if I don't demand transparency, this future relationship with this breeder could be uncomfortable, (and that is exactly what I don't want) which is actually the reason I am contemplating walking away from the situation. |
Mad Dog wrote: There is a litter back East. Not sure if there are any show prospects - I was told there's a performance prospect, though. A male, however. (and translation: needs an experienced, active home that will give him a job or he'll probably turn the place upside down <vbg> )
Bottomline for the poster is if they're not comfortable with the situation, they should do as they're proposing and follow their gut and move on. Kristine Thank you for your advice... and I am hoping it gets settled with this particular OES as we are attached already... she's beautiful, and even with this set back, I really appreciate the breeders because I feel they are willing to work with me, and help educate me about the breed. I truly believe it was a miscommunication and they are wonderful people. If it does not work out, can you IM me with the contact info about the litter you know of? Thank you! |
| What this breeder is asking for is not out of line. What we always do is send a copy of the contract before we even take a deposit. Bitch contracts can always be a bit more "creative" as you have more you can work with. But no matter what, I would want all that information before getting attached to a pup & handing over a deposit. I would think the breeder would want it that way too as it starts everything out on the right foot. The bottom line is you need to feel comfortable with the breeder & totally comfortable with the contract. As for asking for contracts from other breeders, you would need to ask for them directly from that particular breeder. We all have our own contracts & they can be quite different. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: What this breeder is asking for is not out of line. What we always do is send a copy of the contract before we even take a deposit. Bitch contracts can always be a bit more "creative" as you have more you can work with. But no matter what, I would want all that information before getting attached to a pup & handing over a deposit. I would think the breeder would want it that way too as it starts everything out on the right foot. The bottom line is you need to feel comfortable with the breeder & totally comfortable with the contract. As for asking for contracts from other breeders, you would need to ask for them directly from that particular breeder. We all have our own contracts & they can be quite different.
Hi I was just literally looking at your site! Beautiful dogs! I know it's common for them to ask for that in a contract, which is not what I am having an issue with. The breeder already has my deposit, and I haven't seen the contract... it's been discussed many times and I thought we were clear on what it would say, but today (after a month of discussions) they throw in "a puppy from the 1st litter"... so like you said, it's more of an uncomfortable feeling right now, that I'm having the issue with. I wish I had made them send me the contract upfront before getting this far into the deal... doesn't make for a pleasant feeling. |
| Hello Kristine have not heard from you for a long time but I was expecting this and I enjoy our difference of opinion and our discussions.
Mad Dog wrote: If you're new to the breed/breeding, probably the only way you're going to get a dog on anything except a limited registration/spay/neuter agreement is to co-own, since it's the breeder's reputation on the line. Translation: as the breeder, if rescue starts getting dogs in with your dogs immediately behind them, or even close behind them, it's your reputation in the toilet. So, yes, that tends to lend itself to control freak-ism. I find it a these stipulations a little unfair just because someone is new to the breed, of coarse the breeder has certain responsabilities but unfortunately they do not all take these seriously. I do not understand where the breeders reputation is on the line, since the affix on the dog has nothing to do with the original breeder this means a breeder gets cruzified for something that is not their fault, the rescue's need to get their act together with that one. I can understand the control freakism. Mad Dog wrote: I don't know about the rest since I've never gotten a dog on a contract, nor have I ever paid for one, though they've come with strings and co-ownerships attached, strings that were known and acceptable to both us. You know what you are doing here and have a sensible head on your shoulders. Mad Dog wrote: It's kind of odd for a long time breeder not to have a sort of standard issue contract, one for pets, one for show prospects. But amendments may need to be made depending on the situation, I suppose, and maybe this is a new situation for this particular breeder. Three weeks heads up time doesn't seem terrible to me, but it's the buyer who has to feel comfortable with the agreement too, so that's not for me to say. I agree Kristine but I still do not see why the breeder has any rights on forthcoming litters, it is a contridition to the statement above regarding their reputation, so on other words the reputation does not count as long as they can make extra money out of other peoples litters, perverse. Mad Dog wrote: Oh, and Stewart, as an aside, a sub-section of American (and South American) non-show, shall we say, breeders are not unaware of the fact that it's easier to get dogs out of European breeders with no strings attached apparently, because a couple of your most visible kennel names are now liberally showing up in some American rescue dogs pedigrees. It's a way to advertise "championship lines". And then do no health testing and breed to whatever is available locally. Not something I'd want my name or reputation attached to, you know?
Kristine Sorry Kristine what difference would it have made if there was a contract as it would have no power in a court in the US and again the original breeder is not at fault but the person breeding, I think this is an international problem and has to be handled as such or the next thing European breeders will be getting banned from selling pups in the US caused by the rescue org in the states. I support the scottish rescue as much as I can as a last note |
| I think if you are uncomfortable with the breeder, tell them so and ask for your deposit and move on. You will find another pup and will love it as much as this one.
If this is your first OES, promising to show and breed is a big promise to make to a breeder. Its alot of work to show and to maintain a full coat and very time consuming to get to shows and find handlers, etc. Breeding is a whole other story and takes knowledge and money to do so. I would think twice before promising to do those things. Just because a pup is labled a "companion pet" doesn't mean its not a beautiful loving pup. And by labeling a pup a "show quality" pup doesn't mean it will make it in the ring either. Its difficult to tell by 8 or 10 weeks if a pup has what it takes to work a show ring. Don't let it ruin your day. Think of it as a learning experience! |
I had a similar problem several years ago when looking for a show male. I spoke to the breeder on the phone and she sent me a contract, then sent me a different contract. Then wasn't sure if she wanted to use the second one. We walked away from her and got a dog from another breeder. She got very nasty, she kept our deposit and then trashed me to anyone who would listen  . Hard lesson learned; if it doesn't seem
right move on. I ended up with a beautiful boy who easily finished his championship  It is the breeders responsibilty to provide the contract and if they can't they shouldn't be selling puppies. |
| Hi all, Thank you for responding with advice.
I believe it's been resolved and we will be sticking with them because we really love their dog and I feel that they will guide us in the right direction, as they are good people and love the breed and the dog. I have received a lot of responses regarding this, all with great advice. I hope that I have not gave the impression that I am trying to slam the breeder, because that is not my intention. I want a good relationship with my breeder, but feel that all information is to be included from the start... doesn't feel like that's too much to ask? I was worried I offended her by my responses because I felt that this information was just slid in... kind of like they maybe were thinking that I wouldn't notice... I may be new at this but I do my research, I'm taking this very seriously and I don't appreciate that one bit... It's not that I don't care to give them a puppy, it's that it was not discussed previously, where as other details have been. Again, thank you all for the advice. I'm happy this is resolved because I was really torn up over it... I really, really love this OES! |
| Glad you worked everything out.
I don't know who the breeder is or do I breed but, I am sure it was just a mix up. I do rescue(totally support breeders as well... not going there) It just made me think of the adoption agreements and legal stuff. We do it so often we forget the specifics sometimes. Good learning experience from all aspects.... Can't wait to hear about the new baby! |
Mad Dog wrote: as an aside, a sub-section of American (and South American) non-show, shall we say, breeders are not unaware of the fact that it's easier to get dogs out of European breeders with no strings attached apparently, because a couple of your most visible kennel names are now liberally showing up in some American rescue dogs pedigrees. It's a way to advertise "championship lines". And then do no health testing and breed to whatever is available locally. Not something I'd want my name or reputation attached to, you know?
Kristine Gee Kristine, I'd sure be interested to know what dogs your talking about from the 'sub-section' American contingent as as far as *I* know none of MY dogs have ended up in Rescue......... I'd sure want to know if they were. And NOONE has ever contacted me. |
| I think things are always two sided when you hear about dealings with a breeder and being 'trashed'. There is always more to the story than one side.
When i bought Delilah i was required to finish her Championship, pay for all of her health testing, pay for all of the stud fees etc. for a stud that was agreeable to the both of us, and then give 3 puppies back. There is a lot of stress being on each side of the litter. From the person buying a puppy to the owner of the bitch...dam of the litter who is maybe dealing with the breeder of the dam! This all said, I understand where the breeder is coming from, also wanting half of all stud fee's back from a male puppy. |
| I never assume I Know what is in a contract until I actually read it - and sometimes I wait for my lawyer to tell me what it says |
kerry wrote: I never assume I Know what is in a contract until I actually read it - and sometimes I wait for my lawyer to tell me what it says
Good point on the lawyer, I cant read legalese to save myself.  |
kerry wrote: I never assume I Know what is in a contract until I actually read it - and sometimes I wait for my lawyer to tell me what it says
When I picked up Patch at the rescue, it was love at first sight, I was so excited when I met her. I do not remember if I signed a contract or if it was merely an agreement that if i didn't want her i'd bring her back to the rescue, but I had the rescue sign a contract that she was mine, i wanted it in writing - i did not know these people and didn't want them to change their mind, etc. The rescuer was glad to sign but said no one had done that before. |
| I'm always curious how far a breeder will go to enforce a contract as far as getting a championship is concerned. Luke was shown several times and truly hated it. My breeder (this was before there were contracts) told me that even though it was a shame since Luke was square, had nice movement and a great head not to show him anymore. Her feeling was that he was miserable and she would rather he be a happy boy than a champion. Wonder if a breeder now would force the issue? |
| I think most breeders would have the best interests of the dog in mind. It's not fair to the dog to force it to do something it truly hates. Although our show contracts state the dog must be shown to it's championship that is mainly to cover someone who wants a show dog, promises to show it & then refuses to do so. We even state that we will handle the dog, free of charge if they do not want to take it into the ring. |
Ali wrote: Mad Dog wrote: as an aside, a sub-section of American (and South American) non-show, shall we say, breeders are not unaware of the fact that it's easier to get dogs out of European breeders with no strings attached apparently, Kristine Gee Kristine, I'd sure be interested to know what dogs your talking about from the 'sub-section' American contingent as as far as *I* know none of MY dogs have ended up in Rescue......... I'd sure want to know if they were. And NOONE has ever contacted me. Gee, Ali - I don't consider you part of any section of the non-show breeders, my polite way of saying BYBs I.e. I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
Kristine |
dairymaid wrote: Hello Kristine have not heard from you for a long time but I was expecting this and I enjoy our difference of opinion and our discussions.
Sorry Kristine what difference would it have made if there was a contract as it would have no power in a court in the US and again the original breeder is not at fault but the person breeding, I think this is an international problem and has to be handled as such or the next thing European breeders will be getting banned from selling pups in the US caused by the rescue org in the states. I support the scottish rescue as much as I can as a last note Hi, Stewart. I've missed chatting with you too 
Rescue groups don't have the power to ban imports, so that's a non-issue. I'm just pointing out that a couple of European kennels are showing up in certain BYB/subsequent rescue OES pedigrees. Not all. Just some. I suspect your note that American breeders tend to be more restrictive than their European counterparts when it comes to the puppies they sell probably helps explains why that may be happening. (Does your writing mean you'll be around more?  )
Kristine |
Ali wrote: When i bought Delilah i was required to finish her Championship, pay for all of her health testing, pay for all of the stud fees etc. for a stud that was agreeable to the both of us, and then give 3 puppies back.
This is something I do not understand and am hoping one of you breeders can educate me. If you're paying top dollar for a puppy, expending all of the cash out to show a dog and put a championship on one of their dogs, giving credit to the breeder, health testing, etc., then why do you have to turnaround and give the breeder 3 puppies which amounts to roughly $4,500-6000? I can see if the breeder works out some type of deal, like maybe a discount or a free co-owned puppy. Or maybe the breeder mentors you all of the way with exhibiting, showing up to dog shows, sharing with expenses, helping with grooming, helping whelp the litter, etc. I agree with Stewart that it does seem a bit excessive. I would like to know why this tradition of puppy payback was started. |
Anonymous wrote: This is something I do not understand and am hoping one of you breeders can educate me.
If you're paying top dollar for a puppy, expending all of the cash out to show a dog and put a championship on one of their dogs, giving credit to the breeder, health testing, etc., then why do you have to turnaround and give the breeder 3 puppies which amounts to roughly $4,500-6000? I can see if the breeder works out some type of deal, like maybe a discount or a free co-owned puppy. Or maybe the breeder mentors you all of the way with exhibiting, showing up to dog shows, sharing with expenses, helping with grooming, helping whelp the litter, etc. I agree with Stewart that it does seem a bit excessive. I would like to know why this tradition of puppy payback was started. Most likely because the breeders a lot of times can not keep as many dogs as they would like to keep for their breeding program. By getting a puppy back, they are keeping their line going with a dog out of a dog they would have kept themselves had they been able to. |
| I must"peep" in
Getting a title on a dog is not "free" Not even speaking of time and work! We have "titled" 3 dogs in rescue Murphy's Law Unleashed CGC,RA Donaghey CGC Georgie,,,nevermind just star puppy AKC! (the deaf pup) Quin CGC... Guess tha that is 4!! It is alot of work... Of course breeders want to make sure they are going to the right home! |
Donner's Mom wrote: I must"peep" in
Getting a title on a dog is not "free" Not even speaking of time and work! We have "titled" 3 dogs in rescue Murphy's Law Unleashed CGC,RA Donaghey CGC Georgie,,,nevermind just star puppy AKC! (the deaf pup) Quin CGC... Do you mean my Patch is "titled?" I never thought of it like that, I always considered her a very hard worker with achievements. She is going on 6 years as a therapy dog and earned her CGC in St Louis last May. And you are right, there is a lot of time and effort working with our dogs but it has been a lot of fun on the ride to those achievements. |
| Well, yeah it is a title in my book!
Maybe not properly worded but, I just wanted to point out that it is alot of work.... Championships are a much longer journey. Patch and you should be very proud of your accomplishments!!!!! |
Donner's Mom wrote: Championships are a much longer journey.
Not necessarily. It just seems that way because you can start showing the dog at a young age & you pretty much see it out there several weekends a month until it is finished. Remember in performance work you probably train for a good year before you feel confident to try your dog in one of the performance events. At least I do. Most of the time I have to be pushed to enter becasue my dog is ready but I don't think they are. And it is also an area where you have to train in-between your weekly class sessions. Just showing up for a practice class now & then or for weekly classes without practicing between times.....well it's like wasting your time & money. |
Anonymous wrote: Ali wrote: When i bought Delilah i was required to finish her Championship, pay for all of her health testing, pay for all of the stud fees etc. for a stud that was agreeable to the both of us, and then give 3 puppies back. This is something I do not understand and am hoping one of you breeders can educate me. If you're paying top dollar for a puppy, expending all of the cash out to show a dog and put a championship on one of their dogs, giving credit to the breeder, health testing, etc., then why do you have to turnaround and give the breeder 3 puppies which amounts to roughly $4,500-6000? I can see if the breeder works out some type of deal, like maybe a discount or a free co-owned puppy. Or maybe the breeder mentors you all of the way with exhibiting, showing up to dog shows, sharing with expenses, helping with grooming, helping whelp the litter, etc. I agree with Stewart that it does seem a bit excessive. I would like to know why this tradition of puppy payback was started. I don't know that 3 puppies is the norm. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it usually just depend on the agreement (before even taking ownership of the bitch) between the breeder and the party in question? As a show dog owner, I guess I never cared about it terms of money or making money off puppies. I just wanted a nice dog to show and to have a good time with. At some point in the future, I'd like a good pup out of him for myself, too but my breeder seems pretty supportive of that. |
| There is no "norm" in contracts. Some of our show prospect bitch contracts ask for 1 puppy back. Some for 2 puppies back. A lot of times it depends on the bitch & her pedigree such as if we haven't been able to keep that line going really well (the girls haven't produced much in the way of puppies), we might want 2 puppies back to try to beef it back up. It also depends on who raises the litter. We have some show homes where the owners prefer to raise the litter & we get a puppy or 2. Others where they want nothing to do with raising the litter but would just like to have a puppy out of their girl so Cathy would raise the litter & the owners got their puppy. As for the boys, it's much simpler. Unlimited stud rights. Doesn't mean they are going to be used a ton of times. Depends on the pedigrees. That is why I keep stressing "read" the contract. "Ask" questions. |
| I think our contract actually calls for four puppies - if we breed two litters. It is what it is and you do what you have to do to get the bitch you want. My male dog requires no puppies, but I decided early on I wasn't going to breed him so not every decision is cost based .
But I have to say, I saw the contracts, and had my lawyer go over the more comlicated one, very early on in the puppy process. Okay I was going to get my girl apparently no matter what - but you pay what you need to to get what you want. |
kerry wrote: I think our contract actually calls for four puppies - if we breed two litters. It is what it is and you do what you have to do to get the bitch you want. My male dog requires no puppies, but I decided early on I wasn't going to breed him so not every decision is cost based
.But I have to say, I saw the contracts, and had my lawyer go over the more comlicated one, very early on in the puppy process. Okay I was going to get my girl apparently no matter what - but you pay what you need to to get what you want. I am sorry but no matter how much I wanted a bitch I would never agree to such a contract, you can call it what you want it is in my opinion greed on the side of the original breeders and in my opinion that is why you have so many BYB. How to get rich by breeding dogs not only selling your own pups but getting pups from other litters to sell, perverse this is not what breeding is about, hopefully in Europe we will not adopt this system. It makes my mind boggle. |
| Not to say that in many european countries those clauses that restrict full fruition of one's property are illegal, so, Stewart, it's not very probable that this very funny system will ever be put to practice over this side of the pond.
Also, can anybody explain me the reason why so many breeders only register a part of the litter and not the whole of it? |
dairymaid wrote: I am sorry but no matter how much I wanted a bitch I would never agree to such a contract, you can call it what you want it is in my opinion greed on the side of the original breeders and in my opinion that is why you have so many BYB. In my opinion you aren't familiar enough with the way things work over here to have a basis for those opinions. If the market didn't support these types of contracts or the terms of the deals, they would change.
First off, if you believe that a reputable breeder can and/or should be able to produce quality litters under much buyer-friendlier terms, then there must be a huge financial opportunity for you to come on over here and open up your own profitable kennel. Second, it is completely insulting to say that the most reputable breeders in our community are the cause of backyard breeding without a scintilla of evidence. It is just preposterous to say that because someone didn't like the "entry fee" that this alone would turn them into uncaring, untesting, breed indifferent back yard breeders. In my opinion. |
| ^^^^
I agree with Ron here. How can it be that the very breeders who restrict the use of their puppy bitches the most are responsible for BYBs? The only reason I can see why is because you think as a buyer I would only be interested if I could make money off my bitch. My reason for buying her (and yes I believe she is property) was not to make money, but she was the best fit for what I was looking for in a bitch. I most likely will breed her, not to make money but to get a puppy bitch that is better than she is. Believe me, with what I spend on classes and training not to mention trial entries - the breeder could have given me four puppies and I wouldn't make money. Is it greed on their part - not likely with what they have spent over thirty plus years in improving their line. And along with the puppy comes a lifetime of help and advice. If I didn't think she was worth it - I would have moved on to a different breeder, but there is no doubt in my mind I would do it again if I was in the market for another puppy. |
| Might as well have claimed that handcrafters of expensive custom children's toys are responsible for lead-laden toys from China. |
| I'm very new to this, and it's obviously something that many people feel different about, but I was under the impression that the reason why bitches come with a much more detailed contract is because the breeder you are purchasing them from is attached to that bitch, as well as her litters. So in a way by allowing you to breed that bitch, the breeder is saying that you have the rights to use their name as well. This is my understanding from the breeder that I chose to go through. She feels that she has created a breeding program that she is very proud of, and doesn't want to have her name drug through the mud by a BYB, or one who isn't going to make the breed look good. She's well known in the OES community, and doesn't want her hard work to be jeopardized.
So the reason I am willing to sign her contract is because she does have a good name, her breeding program is really good and I want to continue that quality through my own future breeding program. In my contract, there isn't anything crazy, just that both dog's have to be tested for hip and eyes prior to breeding, the male needs to be approved by my breeder, and have a champion in it's pedigree... because I am new to this, I actually find the contract comforting, all details are clear, I know she cares for the dog as much as I do and because she gets a puppy back, she isn't going to approve just any stud to breed to my bitch. |
| This is all new info for me, as Ive never purchased a show-quality pup...and I find it extremely interesting, since one day we might!
Just a comment...its striking me that Dairymaid might have the cause-and-effect backwards...these practices may have come in to effect over here because we have such a bad BYB problem  |
ravenmoonart wrote: This is all new info for me, as Ive never purchased a show-quality pup...and I find it extremely interesting, since one day we might!
Just a comment...its striking me that Dairymaid might have the cause-and-effect backwards...these practices may have come in to effect over here because we have such a bad BYB problem I wondered that too Laurel. But I have never even read a show dog contract even from here in Aus so dont know enough about it to really have an opinion. |
SeaLords wrote: Not to say that in many european countries those clauses that restrict full fruition of one's property are illegal, so, Stewart, it's not very probable that this very funny system will ever be put to practice over this side of the pond.
Actually it has already started in Europe. I know of a litter that required 3 puppies back in Spain. |
| "My reason for buying her (and yes I believe she is property) was not to make money, but she was the best fit for what I was looking for in a bitch. I most likely will breed her, not to make money but to get a puppy bitch that is better than she is. "
This is exactly why i DID sign the contract i had for Dee. I had waited for years from another breeder for something i wanted to breed to Duncan. It never panned out. One thing after another. I know the 'type' and look of the OES I feel are correct and i wanted to continue with. One has to make concessions. In the long run, both of us were extremely pleased with what i have, and my breeder for what all i accomplished with Dee. She took a Best Puppy In Show her first show, and she retired at the Show of Shows in Canada (you have to have a Best In Show to be invited and show). She was Owner/Handler shown at Westminster, CRUFTS (and placed in a huge class) and in Canada where she went Best In Show from the Open Bitch Class to finish her Canadian Championship. She is also a Mexican, Latin American and FCI Champion. She has produced 3 American Champions (1 more to go only singles needed), 2 Int (FCI) Latin American, Mexican, Pan American Champions, 1 Agility, Therapy dog which we are equally proud of! Gee Beauty AND Brains! Was she worth all of it in the contract? You betcha every bit! and we are hoping for another litter this summer. This said, she is sleeping right now beside the bed on a pillow with her "monkey man" that she sucks the brains out of every night..... with her 2 kids beside her on their own pillows. This the Princess who won't go outside because she doesn't want to get her feet wet! (yes it is pouring again down here........sigh) I believe the BYB problem is backwards from your thinking Stewart. It is because of the control 'good' breeders keep over their/our bitches that we DONT have more puppymill backyard bred dogs. There is a 'breeder' back east and has a daughter up in Canada that for years had ad's in a dog magazine advertising Champion TOP kennel bloodlines. However if one really looked CLOSE at the spelling of the Kennel names, they were mispelled! He would not send you the puppy nor could you see his kennels. You had to meet him at a crossroad with the $$ and then get to see the puppy you had purchased. Alot of times, (from people that had been thru this) it wasn't the puppy they thought they were buying. There were no health guarantees nor contracts. You buy the dog, and it's yours and you can do what you want with it. Of course, he would not take a dog back for anything either! |
Ali wrote: SeaLords wrote: Not to say that in many european countries those clauses that restrict full fruition of one's property are illegal, so, Stewart, it's not very probable that this very funny system will ever be put to practice over this side of the pond. Actually it has already started in Europe. I know of a litter that required 3 puppies back in Spain. Can you be more specific? Was it a puppy that came from the US to Spain? Was it a puppy born in Spain sold to another place? Or was it a litter born from a bitch that was some 6 months at her breeders home who put some titles on her, was mated while abroad and simply gave birth at the owner's place? Anyway, those contracts won't stand in court around here... Ali wrote: I believe the BYB problem is backwards from your thinking Stewart. It is because of the control 'good' breeders keep over their/our bitches that we DONT have more puppymill backyard bred dogs.
Well, I'm not so sure there. A puppymiller or BYB doesn't need to get his breeding dogs from good breeders, they will breed with any dog, good or bad, AKC papers or no AKC papers (you can always arrange some from another club ...). And I can see people who simply want to buy a family dog, being faced with so many contracts and restrictions from a breeder, prefering not to have so much trouble and buying elsewhere. And let's face it, mills and BYB only exist because there are people buying these dogs. Mills and BYB will exist as long as there is a market for their dogs. If you want to fight them, making it difficult to buy a good puppy is not a good strategy. |
SeaLords wrote: And I can see people who simply want to buy a family dog, being faced with so many contracts and restrictions from a breeder, prefering not to have so much trouble and buying elsewhere.
For someone who simply wants to buy a good quality family dog from a reputable breeder who backs their breeding, in another words a good comapnion, I would have to say that the only main restriction we place in the contract is that the dog must be spayed or neutered at an appropriate age & that the dog receives good quality vet care throughout it's life (and of course good treatment by it's family). It is sold on a limited AKC registration which means if the owners attempt to use it in breeding none of the issue are AKC registerable. Companion or show dog, the contract should still be gone over thoroughly so both parties are in agreement on the meaning of everything. |
| Marilyn one of the things missing in most US contracts are what happens if the clauses are ignored - other than AKC not registering puppies which a lot of BYB don't care about anyway. Our Newf contract has penalties assigned to not taking appropriate actions. Their kennel club has a lawyer on the board
I was actually glad to see it since my lawyer looked at my first contract for a dog and said - so possession is still a valid legal concept what happens if you don't do these things (testing, showing etc etc etc) I would advice all breeders to have their contracts reviewed by lawyers familiar with pet laws etc and updated every once in a while. (says she who never actually signed one of he rcontracts......) |
| As far as taking back pups from future litters , I think it Ok.
In the past Old english sheepdogs were bred by very large and well know kennels who could afford to keep as many dogs and bitches as they wanted and who had kennel men and women to care for there extensive breeding programs. In these modern times its just not the case and good breeders maybe have 5-9 Oes of which maybe 3-4 they are breeding from. Top Breeders have to look to carry on there lines with people who give back puppies but in return are able to show a top prospect male or female and learn everything about the breed from a person or persons who are so devoted to this breed and sport. Now as far as the argument of just wanting a companion animal (pet) and not wanting to sign or be bothered by paperwork (contracts etc) and going to a source with no questions for you or paper work(spay/net) what is that saying about the breeders ethics. Top breeders have pet quality dogs in most Litters.If every dog or bitch was show quality this sport would be so easy for all. These "pet" quality dogs from top breeders have the same pedigree as the show prospects but for some reason are not going to be used in the continuation of a breeding program, However they recieved the same care ,screenings as all the other littermates and should be the only source besides rescue to be considered. When choosing the new member of your Family you want someone trying to produce the BEST Oes not someone just putting two dogs together. If nothing is expected of you or you pup and no questions or papers to sign just money exchanges hands what is it all about anyway. Just my 2 cents. NOTHING VETURED NOTHING GAINED |
| You are preaching to the converted. Instead you should convince the ordinary John Doe that not all dogs from the same breed are equal ... |
| I actually have a former employer, an attorney that looked over my contracts and helped me write them.
The one best advice that was given to me, is that the contract is governed by the state that it is enacted in (and i can change this from Colorado to Texas to ???), that there is a $xxxxx.00 penalty if any of the items are not followed to a T, and that the other party will be responsible for all of my court costs, attorney's cost etc. if this item needs to be acted upon. My last litter i sold a puppy to an attorney. He looked over the contract and was very impressed with it. It is not to be 'controlling' but to look out for the life of the puppy that *I* brought into this world. That pup is MY responsibility until he/she dies even if it is with another family. Basically it is their dog, but should the need arise, and the contract states, the dog ALWAYS comes back to me first if for anyreason something happens to the owner, or they cannot keep the dog. This also holds true that the dog is NOT to go to a Rescue. The dogs are chipped and registered to both of us before they leave my premises... Not to be 'controlling' but to know that i have the right to bring this dog back should the need arise as a co-owner. It's easier to get a dog with your name on it out of a city pound than not. (Those of us arond long enough will remember the lady in New England that died and her dogs sat in the pound for 8 months until her will was probated on who could have the dogs). I would rather be in trouble with my HOA than to not know where my pups are and their health and happiness. In all my litters, I have had only one person that didn't like what was in the contract. They wanted so much changed, i tried to work with them as to the terms and conditions but in the end, it is my judgement call on what would be the best for the dog. And i have not regreted that decision one day. I have taken back one dog when we did a 'home check' on a dog in Oklahoma City. I had my breeder along with me and we both agreed the dog needed OUT of that home. Again, thanks to my contract it was a very easy transaction... and the dog ended up in another wonderful home. The bottom line is you have to have contracts if you are going to do this. You have to be willing to stand behind your contracts and think of the dog first and foremost. That is what this is all about in the beginning and end."gutt instinct' goes a long way. When people contact me, if they are very serious they need to send a deposit. And that deposit is non refundable and the people are informed of this at that time. As that is when that 'puppy' is then taken out of the pool for other potential families. The deposits are applied to the amount of the purchase price. The reasons the deposit is non refundable (and this is from many different dog breed's breeders opinions as well) is you then spend a load of time investing and talking to that potential family re that home/puppy. That puppy is no longer available to other families looking for a puppy. If you don't like the contract you can always talk with the breeder to see if changes can be made (i.e. # of puppies back, ownership status, breeding fee's etc) and most all times the breeder is more than happy to work with you to an agreeable decision. HOWEVER, there are sometimes you will find someone that just pushes and pushes the limit to where you say they are not worth the trouble. So basically the deposit is to pay for all the time and trouble you have spent on this one pup and turning down other homes where it might have gone, that have now moved on to another breeder and already purchased another puppy. Not all breeders (of ALL breed's) do this, but a great many do. Ask around to other breed breeders and ask to see their contracts. I'm on a couple of other all breed lists, for contracts, breeding etc. and that is where i received most of my contracts from. |
| I would if it were my involvement. But it isn't. That is up to the two breeders to bring out. I was just aware of the situation of a litter born in Spain that 3 puppies were due back to the stud dog owner in USA.
"Can you be more specific? Was it a puppy that came from the US to Spain? Was it a puppy born in Spain sold to another place? Or was it a litter born from a bitch that was some 6 months at her breeders home who put some titles on her, was mated while abroad and simply gave birth at the owner's place?" Anyway, those contracts won't stand in court around here... "you might be surprised. There is someone else dealing with a dog that was returned (different breed) to Europe and now there are all sorts of legal entanglements as there was no contract written, and now different governing bodies are all envolved with many different people being suspended from ever showing again by their countries bodies; I think you will find there will be more contracts in the future. No a BYB doesnt CARE (thats what we are saying) whether their dogs are healthy or of quality they are just there to crank out the pups for the $$$. They don't show their dogs as that would cut into their profit margin as well as not doing any health testing. As breeders we can only TRY to educate Joe Schmoe public about the type of dog to buy. One that has all the health testing and having been shown to prove it is of breedable quality...to produce a puppy they are looking for. Fortuantely, and thanks to shows and annoucers like David Freii from Westminster, and Eukanuba and other prominent dog shows do get the word out in the USA that the only real registering body is the AKC... just as in Mexico it is the FCM, In Canada it is the CKC. That it is up to the breeder to EDUCATE the buyer WHY they need to buy a from a reputible breeder who breeds to the standards and codes of ethics. Be they a member of a club or not..so long as they breed to the standard and follow health testing and show to know which dogs are of breeding quality. But a breeder can only do so much.... there is a saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink" |
Ali wrote: I was just aware of the situation of a litter born in Spain that 3 puppies were due back to the stud dog owner in USA. Well, in that case the 3 puppies would be the stud fee or part of it, it's not the same thing as giving 3 puppies to the breeder of your bitch absolutely for free. Ali wrote: "you might be surprised.
No, I wouldn't. Laws are not the same everywhere, and such clauses, no matter how good intentioned they may be, as returning the dog to the breeder, or breeding only with the approval of the breeder and such, are illegal in several european countries. A contract with illegal clauses is automatically invalid, thus unenforceable. I don't think the future is more and more contracts, educating people is. |
| Well, in that case the 3 puppies would be the stud fee or part of it, it's not the same thing as giving 3 puppies to the breeder of your bitch absolutely for free.
That was on TOP of the Stud Fee. Ali wrote: "you might be surprised. No, I wouldn't. Laws are not the same everywhere, and such clauses, no matter how good intentioned they may be, as returning the dog to the breeder, or breeding only with the approval of the breeder and such, are illegal in several european countries. A contract with illegal clauses is automatically invalid, thus unenforceable. I don't think the future is more and more contracts, educating people is.[/quote] Well Good luck to you but i think you are incorrect. I hope well for the future of the breed to be healthy and for there not to become the Back yard bred that we had/have here because more breeders did not keep control of their dogs. |
Ali wrote: Well Good luck to you but i think you are incorrect.
I hope well for the future of the breed to be healthy and for there not to become the Back yard bred that we had/have here because more breeders did not keep control of their dogs. Hi Ali, can you explain to me how you are controling your dogs by demanding pups to be returned from forthcoming litters, as pointed out before BYB willl use anything that resembles the breed so that argument does not count. Furthermore the statement "their dogs" is I assume pups they breed, then legally as soon as you buy the pup the "their" changes hands to the new owner. In my opinion all breeders have a responsibility for the pups they breed but not to the point where they can demand or stipulate what you can and cannot do, they are taking the freedom of choice away from their puppy buyers. I am glad I do not stay in the states then I would never have had an OES because there is no way I would let any breeder dictate to me what I have to do, recommendations are welcome but seems to me in Europe we are more the land of the free, well at least when it comes to breeding / buying puppies. |
Ali wrote: That was on TOP of the Stud Fee. Well, you are free to accept (or not) those kind of arrangements. Anyway, I'd still consider that a stud fee. Ali wrote: Well Good luck to you but i think you are incorrect. To me it seems that YOU are the ones that need good luck. Do you know that one of the clauses that would be invalid in many european countries is your obligation of spaying/neutering pet puppies, as they are forbidden without a medical reason? And yet the shelters in those countries are empty ... Ali wrote: I hope well for the future of the breed to be healthy and for there not to become the Back yard bred that we had/have here because more breeders did not keep control of their dogs.
Well, as I say, and Stewart too, BYB can always get their dogs somewhere if they want so it's not by putting so many restrictions that you'll get any results. On the contrary, I can only see BYB flourishing because they make acquiring a dog so much easier. Also, you are not doing any good to the breed by removing so many dogs from breeding, you are just shrinking the already shrunk gene pool of the breed. |
| I have to say I do find the fact that Europeans don't spay and neuter and have less of a shelter problem fascinating. But if you look at the dogs in most shelters (at least around me) they are primarily bullie breeds, old and infirm dogs and the occassional dog that was an impulse buy, does not fit the family and does not last long in the shelter, usually because there is a waiting list for that breed.
I really see a difference in US and other countries in their approach to dog ownership and breeding. That being said, if I need to give back puppies to get the dog I want, I still think nothing of it. Again, might be a cultural difference. |
| First have *I* said *I* request puppies back?? No i was stating about other contracts. One that i have engaged in, in order to get a girl from the line i wanted.
Second, how do i control my dogs? By choosing and only allowing my dogs to be bred with other like minded breeders. Have i turned down people coming to my dogs to be bred? More than anyone knows and that is MY right. Yes it probably does take out of a breeding line, but so be it. If something doesn't seem right to me, well they just don't get bred. Yes I regret the loss of that breeding but then again I only breed for ME first and foremost. And i am not sorry for that. I cannot control where BYB's get their dogs and breed and sell them, but I sure as hell can my lines! By using 'their dogs" no not in this country according to contracts Stewart. If your contract states CO OWNERSHIP then you BOTH own the dog! And Contracts have weight in this country! So I guess that this means a lot of dogs from Europe get to come here willie nillie and not that many go to Europe! At least not until you have a very good working solid relationship as I know many top TOP breeders do. I'm not looking for a fight here guys, just telling you about contracts here and how they are done. Dont' get on MY case! Oh and I also have in my contracts that the dogs will not be tied outside nor be left to live in a kennel that they MUST be house dogs! So yes I am controlling and dictating on some points. After the first dog that i DIDNT have this in the contract and i made a 'unscheduled' home check and found the dog in the condition it was in not once but twice that is why i did that! |
| Hi Ali, Co-ownership is quite clear for me and of coarse it depends on the contract although this is something I am considering myself at the moment, since our Misty will be six in March and we feel she will be too old for her first litter we were thinking of getting another bitch to breed with, therefore although we would purchase the bitch we are lookin for a good home near by. My comments are not about you in general, I just cannot understand that people would enter a contract that commits them to make a dog into a champion or to hand back pups from forthcoming litters, this is wrong in my opinion, no matter how you want to wrap it up it is downright greed and / or vanity on the part of anyone who does this. When you buy a new car and the salesman has in his contract you have to hand the car back at weekends because they want to use it as a hire car I wonder if you would still sign the contract. This is the same you are purchasing a pup, the pup then becomes yours at that point where money changes hands the breeder rights should end there of course the breeder should be able to advise but no more. It does not matter how sweet a pup is, if people started walking away then believe me the contracts would change very quickly and breeders would realise their position is not so strong after all. Furthermore I wish all those breeders who want to protect their affix's would also pay so much attention to health and especially genetic problems in the breed as they do about getting back puppies then we would all have a much better breed of dog to love. A last note here in Germany the shelters are over flowing with dogs who were either fashionable a short time ago or as someone said pitbulls etc. or as they do here they import dogs from other countries where they will get put down after a few days. There are very few OES land in a shelter because most of the breeders will take back their breeding. |
| Contracts aside, there is an emotional investment in giving a puppy back to a breeder. I would guess many breeders count on that and don't actually get many dogs back. JMO. Sadly, breeding is turning into a buslness and many breeders give only lip service to working for the betterment of the breed. It seems to me that in precontract days there wasn't as much nastiness as there is now . How does this help anything? |
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