4 year old hates little dogs
I no longer walk him, my husband does, for fear of him pulling me over and running off after another dog (he's done this with small and medium sized dogs). About a year ago, I took both dogs on leads, for a walk. We stopped at the house of a friend of my son's. I talked with his grandmother for several minutes, then she went in the house and came out with a little bitty barking dog. Our male lurched out of my hands and went after the little dog growling and barking. The grandmother snatched the little dog up just as our oes jumped and bit. He bit the grandmother and caused her to bleed a lot! Had he gotten the little dog he would have killed it. We spoke with a trainer and worked with him a great deal. We've been packed in with snow for the past week, I'm not sure but both dogs were very rowdy. I had to leave with my children and both oes tried to run out the front door. I caught the female, but the male slipped through. He ran straight across the street where out in the front yard was their little dog. He chased the little dog then nipped it, our neighbor grabbed up the little dog, our oes jumped on her, she dropped her dog and our oes tried biting it again. I was able to grab him and drag him back across the street. I asked how they were, and was told the little dog was bleeding. She called her 3 children inside saying she didn't want them outside with that animal out. I'm so angry, upset, and confused - Please Help! |
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| I'm so sorry you're going through this. THERE IS HOPE!!!!!
There is a collar called the prong collar (you can Google it for just this site in the box on this page) that should stop the pulling right away. Here is one post that has good info about the prong collar: http://www.oes.org/page2/1285~Monks_of_New_Skete.html I'd find more/better posts here, but I'm swamped right now and I wanted to give you something to read right away. |
| Im sorry your going through this! I'm sure there will be more experienced people along soon to help you, but here are some questions that might help get things started.
Do you already have a trainer or behaviorist you've been working with? Is your boy neutered? When walking, what sort of collar/harness etc. do you use? Has your boy been to a vet to make sure no health or pain issues could be contributing? Off the top of my head, Id say start looking for a behaviorist in your area who deals with dog aggression. good luck! |
| Thank you both for your words of encouragement. Yes, our boy is neutered and when my husband walks him he doesn't pull - he's wonderful on just his leather collar and leash. The person we've worked with on his behavior after the first run in does not want him now. I'm sick about this. He's part of our family! I'm afraid animal control will be on our doorstep at any moment. I understand our neighbor's fear and I don't want him (our boy) to be like this. She wants to know what is "being" done about him.
Help!  |
Lord&Lady wrote: Thank you both for your words of encouragement. Yes, our boy is neutered and when my husband walks him he doesn't pull - he's wonderful on just his leather collar and leash. The person we've worked with on his behavior after the first run in does not want him now.
If he can behave for your husband with just a leash and collar it is certainly possible for him to behave for you or anyone else. The 'Behaviorist' that gave up on him is not representative of most qualified trainers, so don't give up! Look for a trainer who can come to your home and observe the undesirable behavior first-hand, then give you the skillset necessary to correct it. With patience and perseverance this is a correctable problem. Question: I know it's difficult to walk him given his tendency to bolt, but is he getting adequate disciplined exercise, not just free play? It almost sounds as though he is fixating on the smaller dogs behind fences as an outlet for his energy - Also, they may be barking at him and he's frustrated that he can't get to them. For now, try walking him with your husband and taking the leash from him during the walk. It will help you to become more confident, and also let him know that he needs to show you the same respect. Be patient, and start right away. The littlest things you do make a world of difference, and your neighbors will see that you are taking this seriously and feel better. |
| First I am soo soo sorry you are in this situation. I'm sure your male is wonderful with your family but that isn't the issue.
I'm sorry Ron but a pinch might not help this lady. A dog in a full blown aggression rage could have razor blades on that pinch and it won't stop.If she doesn't have the brute strength to stop this dog a pinch may only make the dog madder. Your trainer backed out because this is becoming a liability issue. In the large city where I live in Texas your dog would already be classified as dangerous and vicious. He would not be allowed out of the house without a muzzle. Animal control may be able to help. They might have a list of trainers who deal with dog aggression. There is a certification for trainers who specialize in this issue. My trainer is called in by our city when there is a question of dog aggression. He has this extra certification. I would suggest that you call vets, training centers, and boarding facilities around you looking for someone with this certification. I know you love your dog but I think you know he is a threat. What if your neighbor hadn't dropped her dog. What if it had been one of her children holding the small dog. You are a mother. How would you feel on the other end and this dog lived across the street from you. Unfortuately your dog does not differentiate human vs animal when he goes into this severe aggression mode. As mean as it may sound, I wouldn't take him out of the house w/o a muzzle till you can get this problem addressed. Good luck, I'm sorry if this message hurts,but I think it needed to be said. |
| Some dogs just fixate on things... other animals, cars, bikes, etc. I have a Schip-mix that I tried to calm down for YEARS around pet rabbits. If I held them she was fine... if they were in their ground enclosure, she would circle them. After the bunns died of old age, she continued to fixate on the wild rabbits. Unfortunately, she can outrun them and has proudly dropped two dead rabbits at my husband's feet after only moments outdoors. Sigh.
You currently need a few different things... a good trainer that will help you to continue to work toward decreasing his prey drive and desensitizing him, some barrier or control to prevent him from ever getting away from you again and your family's perseverance in working toward the goal of keeping everyone safe and keeping this dog. It's not going to be a quick or easy fix. Training will never be 100% reliable but it may give you better control. Teach the dogs to sit/stay when the door opens. Work with them one at a time (put the other in a different room) because they tend to draw off each others excitement and mischievous behavior. Also teach them not to cross the threshold- http://oesusa.com/AboutU142.jpg You need to secure your entry area by either- Putting the dogs behind a closed door every time someone enters or leaves the house. Someone will probably slip up and forget to do it. Putting in a secondary door so that if he blows past the first one, a second will prevent him from escaping. Bolting hasn't been a problem here but we have a gate that latches on the porch and a 4' railing. http://oesusa.com/AboutU510.jpg A secure fence that would prevent him from leaving your yard if he gets out the front door. Quote: Yes, our boy is neutered and when my husband walks him he doesn't pull - he's wonderful on just his leather collar and leash.
Unless he sees another dog. Ask about the use of a prong collar only if all other distraction/desensitization methods fail and the dog won't turn on you. I no longer use them but they can keep simply exuberant dogs under control. Understand that this is a tool that can be used improperly. If you end up going this route, use a backup collar like this one in case the prong collar pops off- http://leerburg.com/Photos/ddcollars_08_red.jpg Good luck to you and your boy. |
| This is wonderful, to have people who understand that our family just does not want to get rid of a member of our family.
I appreciate everyone's ideas! Here's some more info/clarification. We live in a very small town, where when we got the puppies, we were the talk of the town for weeks. Plus, no one seemed to even know what an oes was except our vet. I have checked through several resources and we have no aggression specialists in our area (within 101 miles). I have found another trainer who has agreed to work with us. I'm very nervous. It will be in a beginner's class that starts Sunday. My husband is coming, too. Both dogs sit-stay before given the o.k. to go outside. They do this for treats and when playing ball in our fenced-in back yard. They both do fairly well when I'm brushing and/or bathing them. Eating is not an issue, in the am she eats first and then he does, then in the pm he eats then she does. When we go for walks, I'm walking the girl and my husband walking our boy, it goes well. If we come near other dogs close to their size, we say, "leave it", and they do- very well. If we see smaller dogs, we cross the street and give the "leave it" and it works well. Occasionally, our boy will try turning to go over to the smaller dog, but my 6 foot hubby can bring him back with a quick tug. I'm 4'11'' and have found I cannot hold him back. We've tried the chain slip collar and halty(sp) but with no luck. If other dogs are behind a fence in their yard (even if they are barking away) our sheepies will ignore it, if we are out for a walk or in our fenced yard. Normally, we go through 2 doors and then through the garage when going out somewhere, therefore there is normally double protection. We used to crate them, but they do so well left out in the house, I can't see that as an answer. There are back doors they dogs go out into the fenced back yard. We have recently had several feet of snow, so the children and I were using the front door (door and glass door). I went out the dogs bolted the boy got out as my daughter came out, we were knocked over. Our female oes I was able to grab as she got caught up between my daughter and I. My son was still in the house. Our neighbor's dog was out loose in their yard. Now, not that this is really relevant, but these neighbors do not have a fenced yard and let their little dog out by itself several times a day. This little dog does not stay just in their yard. I hate to make this so long, but I thought the more info the clearer the picture. Please let me hear back. Thanks! |
Quote: Now, not that this is really relevant, but these neighbors do not have a fenced yard and let their little dog out by itself several times a day. This little dog does not stay just in their yard.
I know... but if your dog leaves your yard to get the neighbor's little dog, you need to prevent that from ever happening again. A big dog attacking a small dog off your property will bring you more heartache than you can bear. He's got 2 strikes against him now... the next time it could cost your OES his life so there's no room for any slip ups. It sounds like your dogs are better trained than mine  I had a vet tell me once about a large breed dog that dragged his tiny owner into the office. It was a safety issue that could get the owner and dog killed if she were pulled out in front of a car. He told her to get a prong collar and proper training on using it. The next time the dog came into the office, she had control of the dog and he was no longer dragging her. I'm not sure if it's right for your dog... only a professional trainer can advise you after seeing you and your dog.
I'm glad you found someone to help. Is class going to be with small dogs? Close interaction with small dogs during the first class might be too much, too soon. Does the trainer understand his challenge? Best wishes to you. |
| Please don't take your male to a beginners obedience class, thats a disaster waiting to happen.. No good trainer would have even suggested it. You and your husband will be rightfully nervous, you're going to convey down the leash to your dog that this is not a safe situation. Most newbies to dog training think little fluffy,with its tail wagging away,is just the cutest thing on four paws. They think there is nothing wrong allowing their little darling to go up to any dog. The four words I hate the worst is "my dog is friendly" and here they come right into your dogs face. You and your dog do not need this
Your OES needs one on one with someone who understands dog aggression. This is not simple prey drive. If it were, your dog would not have bitten one person and almost bitten a second trying to get at the other dog. As a nurse I've helped stitch up kiddo's bitten by the neighbors "friendly dog". Any dog gives off warning signs before things escalate to biting.Your guy has some issues that need to be addressed. He's given you at least two warning signs, he needs help. If not addressed, someone will be hurt and he will be put down. Please find someone who knows what they are doing. Even if you have to take him somewhere else where they can board, assess and help him.This issue will not go away without some intense work. Good luck to you |
| Also sometimes just using a prong/pinch collar w/o addressing the issues causing the agression only makes it worse. The dog is being hurt and frustrated which only ramps things up more. |
furry and four paws wrote: Also sometimes just using a prong/pinch collar w/o addressing the issues causing the agression only makes it worse. The dog is being hurt and frustrated which only ramps things up more. That may or may not be true, I have no idea. But I DO know that without question she MUST be in complete control of her dog when he is on the leash. It is a question of safety for everyone- all dogs and humans alike. |
Quote: That may or may not be true, I have no idea. But I DO know that without question she MUST be in complete control of her dog when he is on the leash. It is a question of safety for everyone- all dogs and humans alike.
I agree... without control there's no hope of getting past this. But this is truly something that is going to require a professional's help, not something that can be handled over the internet. I could be way off but it might be more about the intent of the dog. The trainer needs to see if the dog caused injury trying to get "the bait" or if he caused injury trying to get past the human. We brought in a trainer in to help us work through aggression issues in our pack... this was about 4 years ago. I believe you need a professional trainer that will humanely work with you and your boy... one-on-one. I am NOT a professional trainer and don't pretend to be but I think it needs to be a progressive thing. Gaining and keeping control of your boy when a little dog is at a great distance. Getting closer by small degrees... backing off and starting again when you loose that control. Trying to get to the point where he will calmly sit and watch a small dog rather than trying to get. But again, I'm not a trainer and I have never been able to get my Schip-mix past the rabbit thing. |
| Ron I too use a prong collar on my crew. Especially when I have 70lbs,80lbs and 100lbs on the end of flexi leads out in the park.
The comment on making the situation worse comes from my trainer. I've an far from an expert but I have been lucky enough to train with one for over twenty years. I've seen him do some pretty amazing things with some pretty out of control dogs The concept is you have an emotionally out of control dog,a nervous owner on the end of the leash. Each time puppy lunges ,owner jerks. Puppy learns to associate the other animal with getting jerked around.It kind of ramps the situation up more the next time the dog see another dog it doesn't like. It will attach faster to prevent the jerk it associates with the other dog. I hope I explained it right |
| Yes, the trainer knows the situation. My husband has not/ does not have a problem controlling our boy, on or off leash- by themselves or with other dogs. Now do I think it will be challenging for our boy to be sniffing with others, yes. However, I am confident that my husband can handle him. I promise, as I use to be a nurse and am now a teacher, everyone's safe is foremost in my mind, humans and canine alike.
He has never gone after a human. (Please do not think I'm making excuses- he/we were completely in the wrong.) He was trying to get the dog, not the owner. Both times they were no "warning signs" per se. My husband and I have considered every option. But, as I am writing this, I look at my son laying on the floor in front of the fire with his best friend, our oes male, as his pillow, and I know he is good. I must find a way to make this work and gain control. |
| One on one training is probably best to start out with BUT,
you do not want to "shelter" him totally. I would not consider boarding a dog that has issues, whatever they may be. Putting him in a cage is going to heighten what is being seen as aggression. I have had a few dogs to display this behavior and we worked through it fine. Quin, one of my big boys, did alot of the things you are describing. I did start him out in Beginners Obedience and made it very clear to others "HE DOESN"T LIKE OTHER DOGS" I didn't care if they thought I was rude honestl...you have to stand firm on LETTING PEOPLE KNOW. It can be nerve racking to have to controll your dog and watch other peoples dogs because, they are not! Trust me, if this bundle of nerves can do it you can! 
I am not saying it was a quick fix, it was not...I worked with Quin daily. Resulting in him earning his Canine Good Citizenship Award... I don't think a prong collar would hurt but, be sure to get educated on how to use it.. (by a professional trainer) I used a regular nylon slip lead, if he pulled or lunged we went the opposite direction. (Yeah sometimes I was dizzy   )
I do understnad your size this may be hard to do if he is a big boy. I am sure you will get tons of great advice, don't give up! Him learning to respect you is going make the biggest change! This is the big bully when he was introduced to the baby... He was so gentle and never would I have thought we would have made it that far! 
HANG IN THERE YOU CAN DO IT!!!!! |
furry and four paws wrote: Ron I too use a prong collar on my crew. Especially when I have 70lbs,80lbs and 100lbs on the end of flexi leads out in the park.
The comment on making the situation worse comes from my trainer. I've an far from an expert but I have been lucky enough to train with one for over twenty years. I've seen him do some pretty amazing things with some pretty out of control dogs The concept is you have an emotionally out of control dog,a nervous owner on the end of the leash. Each time puppy lunges ,owner jerks. Puppy learns to associate the other animal with getting jerked around.It kind of ramps the situation up more the next time the dog see another dog it doesn't like. It will attach faster to prevent the jerk it associates with the other dog. I hope I explained it right I was wondering did the trainer suggest you use a prong collar with a flexi lead? The two sort of contradict eachother... A prong collar is used as a correction and a flexi lead is so the dogs can run ahead and have the control. You need to be the one in control when using prong, i.e. short lead. JMHO |
| That picture, Kath :*)
Quote: He has never gone after a human.
That's very good. From your description, it sounded like he was fixated on getting the little dogs. That his intention was not directed at doing a human harm. |
| No he hates flexi's
Honestly it works quite well. My crew have 30feet to run on. The minute they hit the end and feel the pinch they quickly stop pulling. Its just a reminder when they smell something that they want to take off after. Even my OES the light one at 70lbs can do some damage to my arm and body hitting the end of a 30ft Flexi at a full run. It works well for us the dogs have a great time and freedom on our walks and we have some control when they forget. Its amazing they know how far they can go without causing the pinch to tighten. I've trained all my dogs this way for the last 15years |
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