Breeder check?
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| What are the right credentials?
Do you know what health issues are prevalent in the breed, and what health screening should be done? More importantly, do they? Real breeders don't refer to their dogs as a "couple".  And they probably don't breed the same two dogs to each other over and over just for the sake of churning out more puppies just because it's convenient and they happen to own both dogs.
Breeders with the right credentials will interview you like there's no tomorrow to see if this breed is right for you and if they can trust you with their dogs. Why? In part because if things don't work out they will take that dog back at any point and any age. They're not trying to make a sale, they're trying to make a match for life and they stand behind their dogs for the life of the dog. Breeders with the right credentials will talk to you about the parents and grandparents etc hip clearances and eye clearances, and hopefully how both parents have been screened for hypothyroidism and how recently and also that the parents have been BAER tested to make sure they are not deaf etc etc etc. Breeders with the right credentials will not push blue eyes or white heads like this is an especially desirable thing. They will evaluate temperament and based on their extensive interview of you try to match the most suitable temperament to your family situation as opposed to, say, sending you lots of cute puppy pictures and letting you pick because you happen to like the markings on a specific puppy who may have all the makings of a high velocity little terrorist who needs an experienced, active home, whilst, perhaps, you instead need a sweet little puppy who will not test you quite that much or require that you quit your day job just to keep said puppy occupied
Just because you want a strictly family pet does not mean you don't deserve a healthy one with a good temperament. If you're looking for a breeder with the right credentials, the best place to start is the national club's breeder referral page, and I can tell you right now you will not find the breeder you mentioned there. Go to http://www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org/ and then the tab that says "Looking for a puppy?" which will give you both what you should expect from a reputable breeder, as well as a list of contacts. You may also want to check out the OESCA health website www.oeshealth.org as well as the Canine Health Information Center's description of what health testing should be done in this breed http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD so you can ask educated questions of any breeder (hint: if you know more than they do, move on ) As well, at least some of the parents' health clearances will typically be listed on the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) site www.offa.org and the breeder should be able to give you the parents' registered names so you can verifiy independantly that their hips have been x-rayed and evaluated, for instance.
Best of luck to you. I hope you find a great dog. Kristine |
| Ditto everything Kristine (Mad Dog) just posted. This "breeder" is not a member of THE OLD ENGLISH SHEEPDOG CLUB OF AMERICA nor is she on the Breeder Referral list of the same which has a code of ethics which is a guideline for breeding & placing puppies of our breed. Please go to: www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org and click on the link to buying a puppy. It has a list of several questions to ask & documentations to you should see in person. I know "time of year" seems of the utmost importance to a lot of people. But please do not let that & the markings on a puppy be the main reasons you are going with a breeder. I can't guarantee puppies at any specifice time of year because (a) my girls may not come into season right on schedule, (b) the breeding may not take, (c) I may not have a puppy that I feel will be the best fit for your family. If you are really serious about a good quality puppy you will be willing to look at other options in dates. |
| I would be very suspicious of this breeder, IMHO...There is no mention of testing and as everyone has said, without testing, you may be facing a lifetime of health problems. Please read the various threads of people getting less than a quality pet. (Of course they all love their sheepies, but the cost and pain of dealing with a dog with tummy issues, or hip issues or various health issues can be devastating...))) There is more of a chance of health problems with a poorly bred dog than with a quality one.
You really need to do more research ~~ I know what it is like to want a family pet and thinking the questions you are asking are the 'right' ones. Without this forum, I would not have known what questions to ask. If cost is an issue, you may want to just save up a little more before getting your puppy...I did!!! I have never regretted the 'extra' cost for a quality dog with Championship lines going back 4/5 generations...This tells me that 'other' people viewed her line as stable, good structure and right on the breed standard....the testing my breeders did on the mom and dad makes me feel very good about her future health issues... And I am soooo happy with my foreever puppy!!!!!!~~~ Here is my baby, who came to me Aug. 2007...NOW, I am NOT saying it was a totally smooth puppyhood, but all her 'issues' ((She LOVE any type of paper...  ) were just a part of well, being a puppy!!!!)) She is now almost 3 years old, a certified therapy dog, is involved in Rally and hoping for more 'activities' this summer~~~~ it has been a great exeperience!!!!
Feel free to contact though the PM if you have any questions a 'newbie' like me can help with!!!!! WELCOME to the forum...I hope to see pictures of your precious pupper!!!!!!! 
HEART!!!!!  |
| Well, I know it didn’t mention a ton of testing, but I did call the breeder and the dogs have been OFA’d and cerf’d. the puppies also come with a 2 year health guarantee, and there is a 4 generation pedigree. So I do feel like I have done enough research and have a good idea of what questions and credentials are important, I was just curious if anyone has any dealing with this particular breeder? I’ve been looking for months at what questions to ask and have called a good deal of breeders. |
| I have never heard of them. If you can check the OFA results online and are happy with the results and you can do some pedigree research, you are probably as likely to get a healthy puppy as someone who gets a puppy from some of the OESCA approved breeders.
If it were me, I might ask the breeder why they do not belong to OESCA, it might allay some concerns, or raise red flags. You also want to find out if they have a current CERF (eye) exam and possibly if they have been BAER tested. One other thing to ask about (I know you have done all this but someone new might come along and read this thread) is a recent thyroid panel on the sire and Dam. |
| I would suggest going on to the OFA site & checking the OFA rating of all the dogs used in the pedigree. You'll need the actual entire registered name of all the dogs in the pedigree to do so. If they have OFA ratings, they will be on there. |
| Not to be argumentative, but there is no mention on the breeder's ad about OFA testing, which I would think she would like prospective clients to know...she mentions shots and dew claws but no testing.
If I were you, I would see if I could find the results online as MadDog suggested:::: Quote: at least some of the parents' health clearances will typically be listed on the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) site www.offa.org and the breeder should be able to give you the parents' registered names so you can verifiy independantly that their hips have been x-rayed and evaluated, for instance.
Also, pedigrees have nothing to do with quality. (I had a dog with a pedigree, who had emotional issues as well as dying at the age of 6 from seizures)... Were there any Champions in the line?? Does your breeder show her dogs so they can be judged on the breed standard???? Showing a dog is not just for 'show'...it is to keep the breed as close to the standard as possible. It includes temperament which is so important!!! You do not say if you have children, but I can tell you that my Heart is great with my grandkids...from 6 months to 9 years!! THIS is extremely important to me, that she is very stable in her temperament. I attribute this to the long line of Champions in her 'pedigree'..... Please understand, I am not trying to be a smartA or a know it all...I have bought a dog from a BYB and he is a very unhappy puppy. He has emotional issues from being poorly bred...Just want you to know that it happens...quite often..... Good Luck~~~ |
| Who ever she has cropping those dogs' tails does NOT know what they're doing. They're leaving a huge stump. OES aren't supposed to have stumps like Rotties or Boxers.
Ultimately, you're spending money on this dog so why sell yourself short and not get the best? Don't waste your time with backyard breeders who really aren't doing anything for the breed and breeding dogs without sound structure and temperament and mind. This dog is going to be part of your family for ten years. It's worth the investment to find a good breeder that does health testing and a proven reputation in breeding quality animals. |
| These are presently in the Chicago area, and I can tell you from experience that a mature dog and usually easier to get accustom to your life style than a puppy fitting in. We had both, and the time needed for the puppy, we just couldn't provide, But our two year old couldn't be better, more loving, or more happy.
Please consider saving another OES. Our Featured Sheepdogs... Our featured Sheepdogs last month were these two adorable Senior brother and Sister ..... Please read their description ..... they need a new home, hopefully together ..... the sad news is that we have gotten more adoptable (and adorable) sheepdogs into rescue. News We are new to Petfinders, so please bear with us as we develope our page with much more info about Old English Sheepdogs and how to live with them happily. Who We Are We are the rescue arm of the Chicagoland Old English Sheepdog Club. We are dedicated to finding new homes for Sheepdogs that need one for any reason. Adopting a Sheepdog Go to Petfinders .com |
| A multigeneration pedigree is a requirement to be producing AKC pups - but there is no guarantee that the ancestors listed are accurate, and the most important item in the pedigree is the number of champions listed.
A health guarantee is nice, but the remedy will likely be you get to return your dog to the breeder for another puppy. Really? You think that's going to go over well at your home after everone is in love with your pet? While there are no guarantees in life, the best insurance you can buy to ensure a healthy, happy puppy is to buy from a reputable breeder who is a member of OESCA and has signed on to the ethical breeding standards of the club. As you can tell, many people are quite passionate about this. But why? The reason is experience. Many of us are involved in rescue, dealing with the huge emotions and heartbreak of families whose dogs were whelped by breeders who are not part of the OESCA program. Please don't be turned off by the tone of these replies. Look past the emotions and learn from our experience. We really really don't want you to learn the hard way. Good luck in your decisions. |
| Two years ago I was looking for a sheepdog that would just be a pet; I wasn't going to show or compete. I was talking with a breeder in Canada (I'm in Atlanta GA) that had a litter with all the proper health clearances, and was from a pedigree show line and they seemed like the dogs would be perfect, if a bit expensive. But I knew what good pups cost based on my research, I'd saved my money and I could afford this puppy.
THEN I found two litter right here in Atlanta. That lady seemed to love her dogs very much, even though she had no health tests and no champions. The dogs all came with AKC certs, and like I said she did seem very nice. So I broke down and got TWO puppies; I mean they were half as expensive as the show pups from Canada, AND I saved my self the expense of shipping a pup from there. Now don't get me wrong; I ADORE my dogs. But in that first years we spent THOUSANDS of dollars on vet bills due to the very poor health of these dogs. Add to that the THOUSANDS on specialty training when they began to develop temperment issues. My dogs took to the training really well, and we started them in Agility; which one of them LOVES and does really well at. And now I'm thinking "why did I think i didn't want a competition dog; this is really fun". You may not want a show dog....now. You may be sure that all you want is a family dog, and you may not change your mind like I did. But we all want healthy dogs; we all want happy, well adjusted dogs. Don't do what I did; I was lured in by the cuteness of the pups and the nearness of them. People here are only trying to help everyone to avoid the mistakes that I made in picking my pups. Good luck; I hope the advice here on OES.org can help you make a choice that will make you VERY happy in your life with your OES-to-be!!! ~Allison |
| well thanks everyone for the advice... i really do appreciate it. I've e-mailed Tarja, but if anyone knows of a reputable breeder in the midwest that will have a litter in the next while that sells their pups for under $1000 i'd love to know about them, i just have yet to find someone like that...thanks! |
| this is my registered name... before i was guest in illinois... please pm me here if you can help me out...thanks! |
| Under $1000 for a reputable breeder is kind of a tall order. The reason that they charge what they do is because all the prenatal health care, genetic testing of parents and puppy care isn't cheap-- when you actually do everything that you should, it really adds up. Most reputable breeders don't have many litters so they aren't making a ton of money. Many are lucky to break even on a litter, especially if it's a small litter.
You may be able to work out a deal with a good breeder if they have any slightly older dogs around. Sometimes they keep pups for show that don't work so they're a little older and they may be willing to work with you on the price. Some breeders will also work with you if you're willing to provide a show home-- not necessarily you showing the dog, just agreeing to let the breeder/handler take the dog to shows and you'd have to help keep up the coat on your end. It's always worth investigating. When I look at my two dogs together (older one is from BYB and the younger one is a champion from a reputable breeder) the differences in them are obvious. I watch the way the older one moves and can see how his body isn't as sound and his movement is very stilted in comparison to the effortless, elastic movement of my other OES. His joints are going to be at risk. He's long and they'll be more pressure on his spine so I assume he'll have arthritis. He's on a weight loss plan now to keep his weight down because I want him to be pain free for as long as possible so light is better. It breaks my heart to think of him getting that way. |
| ok well thanks for the help... guess i'll just go to a BYB... i figure it;'s a game of probabilities anyway... i'll take my chance with the slightly lower probability |
Guest in Illinois wrote: a reputable breeder ...... that sells their pups for under $1000
Be careful about letting price make your decision. You may end up spending way beyond what you "saved" in taking care of health issues. I know first hand - with my previous sheepdog: 
Wasn't she adorable? The place she came from was impeccably clean and the people were so nice. They had her pedigree. What more did we need to know???? She ended up costing us more in extra doctor's bills in just the first two years of her unhealthy life then the inititial purchase price of my current OESCA breeder referred dog. Please do NOT let the initial price determine your decision. You will end up paying for it in the long run. I know DarthSnuggle posted the same thing earlier but I am not sure if those of us who have experienced it have made it clear enough. |
new OES in Illinois wrote: I figure it;'s a game of probabilities anyway... i'll take my chance with the slightly lower probability Well to me it seems the probabilities are probably something like this: 1:25 "preventable hereditary" problem with a reputable dog and 1:3 "preventable hereditary" problem with a BYB dog.
Of course all my experience is from rescue programs, where the dogs from BYBs wind up because the homes aren't well screened. Dogs from reputable breeders don't usually wind up in rescue because the homes are properly screened and if there is a problem the breeder will take back the dog (not necessarily for a refund). Turns out that a huge percentage of dogs in rescue have issues. Were they turned in because they have issues, or do they have more issues because of their source? The difference of $500 or $1,000 or even $1,500 (a good dog is likely $1,500 or $2,000) up front is tiny compared to the expenses you will lay out to care for a dog who has hereditary problems like HD and others. If you still aren't swayed, please check with the rescues in your area -- in addition to older dogs, they may have younger dogs and even puppies from time to time in need of a new home. Good luck! |
| thanks for the advice. |
| I think one of the things that you have to do is what you did coming here - always ask if anyone has personal experience with the breeder and weigh what you hear back - anyone can produce one dog with health issues. I mean this even with an OESCA breeder - ask for feed back. |
| Also; if you are willing to "take your chances" with a BYB, why not go the rescue route instead? It will save you considerable money at the outset, and if you are willing to "take what you get" in terms of health and temperment, a rescue could be the perfect dog! There's often no known history, so it will be a bit of a guessing game about those things, but no more so than with a BYB. But so many people here have wonderful relationships with their rescue dogs. In fact a rescue in Utah only this week got in a 14 week old puppy, so there's even still a chance you could get a dog on the younger side. |
| to be honest i would love to go the rescue route, but i live in an apartment while i'm finishing up my PhD. they will let us get a puppy, but not alarge dog... they're fine if we move out six months after getting the puppy, so that';s why i'm looking for a pup. so we want to get a pup this spring/summer so we can have him in the apartment for 6 months before we move to california |
| At least find a BYB with a history -- I can't find ANYTHING on Brenda's Shaggies other than one ad she has placed on a scummy puppy website. The whole thing could be (I'm not saying it is) just a scam to take your money. We've seen people waiting for a shipment on a plane that never arrives..... |
| we're going over there in march when the litter is born before we pay anything...so i hope that we'll be comfortable then |
| of course i'm still looking, so if i can find something better or if anyone sees something better please let me know! |
new OES in Illinois wrote: to be honest i would love to go the rescue route, but i live in an apartment while i'm finishing up my PhD. they will let us get a puppy, but not alarge dog... they're fine if we move out six months after getting the puppy, so that';s why i'm looking for a pup. so we want to get a pup this spring/summer so we can have him in the apartment for 6 months before we move to california
Not really on topic as far as the breeder question goes...but, since a sheepie pup is usually taken home between 2-3 months of age...do your landlords understand how big a 8-9 month old sheepdog can be? Before the end of your 6 months, he'll be a pretty good sized dog! |
| i think they may or may not, not totally sure...we have a contract though specifying it's ok for the dog to be there for that amount of time, and a good relationship on top of that. My wife stays at home so that makes the landlord more comfortable |
| thanks for the PMs from people who have written to give me a hand... i would reply but i haven't been a member for over an hour yet |
| Something to think about the first year of having a puppy is also the most expensive year to have a puppy. That is just for an average healthy pup, if you have a pup that my have kennel cough or some other health issue ... it adds up quick and after 3 days your in love with you pup not many can sit by and not pay the money to have a healthy pup.
If you search BYB or pet store puppies or heath issues on this website you can see some of what others have gone thru. I am sure some here can/have share/d the pain and cost that having a "take your chances pup" cost. Hips are a big issue, eyes sight and deafness are just some of the genetic factors that our breed can be hit with. For a male there are threads about testicular cancer in undecended testicles (if you are getting a male) altering this type of male is more expensive (or can be) then altering a female. A friend just had her 3 yr old lab altered and it was $600.00 
One really GREAT way to check out a breeder is at dog shows, if they are bad most people won't say anything bad about a particular breeder but they will give you names of good breeders and the breeder you asked about won't be among them. The dog show world is a very small world and even if a breeder doesn't breed the same type of dog they have usually heard good or bad about the breeder you maybe asking about. Rescues are another way to findout about a breeder, some rescues know or have a really good idea where their dogs are being bred. |
new OES in Illinois wrote: we're going over there in march when the litter is born before we pay anything...so i hope that we'll be comfortable then
BAD IDEA!! nothing cuter than OES puppies - isn't that how Allison got two???????? |
kerry wrote: new OES in Illinois wrote: we're going over there in march when the litter is born before we pay anything...so i hope that we'll be comfortable then BAD IDEA!! nothing cuter than OES puppies - isn't that how Allison got two????????Now, now. Surely the statute of limitations must eventually kick in when it comes dragging out every less than well thought out thing we've done in the past that resulted in acquiring an OES...  Or two
Kristine  |
Mad Dog wrote: kerry wrote: new OES in Illinois wrote: we're going over there in march when the litter is born before we pay anything...so i hope that we'll be comfortable then BAD IDEA!! nothing cuter than OES puppies - isn't that how Allison got two????????Now, now. Surely the statute of limitations must eventually kick in when it comes dragging out every less than well thought out thing we've done in the past that resulted in acquiring an OES... Or two Kristine Hey Kristine - read your posts girlie. Allison mentioned herself on page 1 of this thread. Kerry was just pointing out what Allison had previously mentioned. BTW  Oh and Love Ya sweetie.  |
| Oh Val she justs likes to poke at me every onece in a while due to my defense of poor Sybil |
SheepieMommy wrote: Hey Kristine - read your posts girlie. Allison mentioned herself on page 1 of this thread. Kerry was just pointing out what Allison had previously mentioned.
BTW Oh and Love Ya sweetie.
I know, kiddo. Just giving both of them a hard time
You notice I didn't share my "stupid first OES acquisition" story. That's because I did it the RIGHT way. YUP. Blamed my DAD 
Kristine  |
kerry wrote: Oh Val she justs likes to poke at me every onece in a while due to my defense of poor Sybil
sorry...kerry....not me....we just live in the same city...... |
| oh its fine; I'm happy to be a cautionary tale!!!!
I REALLY don't recommend "window shopping for puppies"; also commonly known as "visiting a litter". What disastrous results!!!!! I can't resist shoes at Macy's, I can't resist cake at bakeries; I have NO idea why I thought I could resist puppies climbing all over me in the living room of a BYB.
This was Luna and Tonks at the "breeders". I'm pretty sure Luna is telling Tonks "You climb in her lap first, and then I'll do it a few moments after you. This lady looks like a sucker; we'll be livin' large in NO time!!!" |
Who could resist that!!!! |
| the "sweet lady that wasn't in it for profit" that I got my pups from had two litters; a total of 17 puppies. I like to think I got away easy with just the two. |
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Bwahahaha!!! Imagine more, you'd be living in Kristine's circus world. |
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| OMG that picture. thankfully i won't be anywhere that place for awhile. ok, not thankfully, but one at a time is all i can be allowed to see. |
Mad Dog wrote: SheepieMommy wrote: Hey Kristine - read your posts girlie. Allison mentioned herself on page 1 of this thread. Kerry was just pointing out what Allison had previously mentioned. BTW Oh and Love Ya sweetie. I know, kiddo. Just giving both of them a hard time You notice I didn't share my "stupid first OES acquisition" story. That's because I did it the RIGHT way. YUP. Blamed my DAD Kristine Damn I knew that - teach me to do two things at once |
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Anonymous wrote: OMG that picture. thankfully i won't be anywhere that place for awhile. ok, not thankfully, but one at a time is all i can be allowed to see.
We actually visited the pups once a week between when we saw them (at 3 and 4 weeks old) and when we brought them home. So I have a lot of photos of when they were REALLY little. 
We actually suspected out breeder of being of "ill repute" before we got the dogs home. Little things began to add up, and paint a not so pretty picture. Every week when we'd visit, she'd have just finished washing and blow drying them. And we NEVER got to see where they and the other pups were living after they were moved out of the living room turned into a litter play-pen. It didn't take long for us to figure out that the days in between our visits, the dogs were living in their own filthy waste.  Once we figured it out, we pulled the dogs a week early, but already with very severe Urinary Tract Infections, and one of my dogs was a poop eater and poop roller for a LONG time. Took me 18 months to break the habits that 7 weeks built.
I had to weigh our options. We'd paid for the dogs already. We were emotionally attached to them already. And I had long-term BF that had said he NEVER wanted dogs. That's him in those photos. Getting to see the pups here in our home town, and interact with them is what got him to agree to getting the dogs. Fortunately he was completely smitten with them when they began fighting about 8 weeks later. We've had truck loads of health and behavioral issues, I believe due in part to who we got them from and how they started life. But we've worked through it, and continue working through it all. I'm forever grateful to my BF for paying for all of it; I would have had to give them up due to the tremendous expense of the vet and the trainers ages ago if not for him.
I consider us very lucky; we love our dogs to pieces, flaws and all. And they love US, flaws and all. They've taken really well to all the training we've had to do, and because of that training, I feel like I have better behaved dogs than a lot of people I know. Some days I think it would be nice to have a dog that didn't guard all of my shoes, and just sit in corners growling at nothing there. Some days I lose entirely to impromptu dog baths due to the foul things my full coated OES rolled in at the park that day. And some days are bliss. I wish you luck, and should luck fail you, I wish you the strength, time, energy, patience and money to set it all as right as you can. So many people in our situation give up; we see a lot of these dogs come to rescue or worse, kill shelters, because they had issues from poor breeding that were too much for the owners to over-come. If people here sound a bit strident, its because they don't want to see that worst case scenario happen, and it happens far too often. Fortunately I'm stubborn as a mule, and throwing the towel in just wasn't an option for me. |
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Very well said...from the heart...from a person who has been there..I admire you and how you worked thru all of the issues. I just hope that people who are considering getting from a BYB or Puppy Mill, can see that you are NOT an exception....that we have a lot of people on this forum, who post about really serious health issues that they are powerless to do anything about---- YOUNG dogs and puppies that are looking at a lifetime of pain,high medical costs, not to mention behavior problems stemming from poor breeding, etc.....and that they really need to read your posts and think long and hard about their choice~~~ |
Darth Snuggle wrote: If people here sound a bit strident, its because they don't want to see that worst case scenario happen, and it happens far too often. Fortunately I'm stubborn as a mule, and throwing the towel in just wasn't an option for me.
I think this statement says it all. I try not to come across too harshly. But I know what Cathy & I put into a litter. It's not just money. It's time & most of all it's emotion because we love this breed so much. Then when I am asked to help transport a rescue it just breaks my heart because I have 1st hand contact with a dog that never had the opportunities that I know our puppies had not only for the 1st 10 weeks but before they were even thought of.  |
sheepieshake wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Very well said...from the heart...from a person who has been there..I admire you and how you worked thru all of the issues. I just hope that people who are considering getting from a BYB or Puppy Mill, can see that you are NOT an exception....that we have a lot of people on this forum, who post about really serious health issues that they are powerless to do anything about---- YOUNG dogs and puppies that are looking at a lifetime of pain,high medical costs, not to mention behavior problems stemming from poor breeding, etc.....and that they really need to read your posts and think long and hard about their choice~~~ There is a new member on the boards right now posting about the sick puppy they got, and how they are on their last strength and are confounded about what to do. My heart goes out to this person every time I read updates about their pup's declining health. You think you are getting a bundle of joy, a life-time companion, and those hopes are dashed due to the inconsideration of someone that didn't think past their ability to make a profit. Bringing a sick dog back to health, raising dogs that will be sick all their lives, training dogs with behavioral issues... not everyone can do it. Not everyone should be expected to be able to do it. I was in the unique position of being able to take 6 months off of work when we started to understand the burden of what our sick pups and behaviorally challenged dogs were going to need. It is completely unrealistic to think everyone can take the time, or the money to do what is necessary to rehabilitate a dog like this (let alone a pair of litter mates). I can only suggest that people stack the deck in their favor, cut out as many unnecessary risks as possible when getting a puppy, and do your homework, save your pennies and get a dog through a reputable breeder. If you REALLY want the challenge of raising a sick dog or an emotionally unhealthy one, then contact any of our rescues. We get so many lovely dogs through rescues, and we get a fair number of ones that require a special touch, alot of patience and a good deal of training. Challenging dogs like these can also be very rewarding dogs in the end. |
| And let's not forget that every time someone buys from a Backyard Breeder we are perpetuating the problem because it encourages them to continue breeding without regard to the health and wellbeing of the puppies.
Many people buying the first time lack knowledge about the detriment to the breed from buying from a Backyard Breeder. But once you know these issues exist and blatantly disregard them to save money, it can be considered being as irresponsible as that breeder. If you cannot afford to buy from a reputable breeder and truly care about the breed then going through Rescue is the right thing to do. |
| I have a problem with how this discussion is starting to go - no one in special, just generally. You know its when we start to talk in such generalities that we lose people. If someone wants a puppy, and cannot afford $2000 or whatever the going rate is these days I am not sure you can say - oh you can't afford a puppy - you need to go to the second hand store - (yes people get out your darts now.)
What we need to do is educate people to the fact that they should demand certain tests and proof of that - or look elsewhere. There are breeders who try to do the right thing who some would call a BYB, but if the consumer demands the testing and proof (through OFA or Penn Hip or whatever) they will step up. OES may not be for everyone, but I do believe we sometimes shrink the pool too much. And as has often been pointed out, not every first time OES owner should get a rescue, they often are in rescue because they are not the best (or easiest to live with) representative of the the breed And now back to your regular programming. |
new OES in Illinois wrote: ok well thanks for the help... guess i'll just go to a BYB... i figure it;'s a game of probabilities anyway... i'll take my chance with the slightly lower probability
After all the bells~~~whistles~~~ and warning signs we have tried to make you aware of, can you please tell me WHY you would just ignore our threads and ..........""""just go to a BYB???''' What is the reason????? It is convenience????? The money????? IMO, those are the only things it COULD be???????? And, please excuse the way I am saying this, but there is no other way........ If your response is yes!!!! Money and convenience!!! Then please just go to rescue, at least there you will get support~~~~ most BYB will not even answer the phone or emails once the check is cashed!!!! For you to come to this forum, ask for help and then ignore it...it s mystery to me!!!!!! (((ron or any other moderator...please feel free to remove this...I had to say what I feel!!!!))))) |
| Kerry, I agree with you but they are not demanding the tests. They are hearing what they want to hear from the breeder and buying the dog anyway.
I also agree with you about that some dogs in Rescue can have issues but that is not always the case. All I am saying is once you seek knowledge then disregard what you have learned strictly because of money then you are contributing to the problem. I think that if I had come upon this issue now when I was making my first purchase I would take the extra time to find a better solution rather than just ignore the pitfalls because the price or the time is right. |
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Unfortunately, a lot of people only learn my making a mistake. And in cases like these the person profiting is the one with the least concern for the dog.  |
SheepieMommy wrote: Kerry, I agree with you but they are not demanding the tests. They are hearing what they want to hear from the breeder and buying the dog anyway. And that will always happen despite all our attempts I also agree with you about that some dogs in Rescue can have issues but that is not always the case. I think it is most likely the case - but most rescues go to experienced owners and that helsp diffuse the problems All I am saying is once you seek knowledge then disregard what you have learned strictly because of money then you are contributing to the problem. Sorry - I see where you are coming from, but it is an awful lot to put on someone we don't know and not knowing th ecircumstances etc . and like I said, BYB are not going to going anywhere I think that if I had come upon this issue now when I was making my first purchase I would take the extra time to find a better solution rather than just ignore the pitfalls because the price or the time is right. And maybe not - hindsight is always 20/20. |
kerry wrote: I have a problem with how this discussion is starting to go - no one in special, just generally. You know its when we start to talk in such generalities that we lose people. If someone wants a puppy, and cannot afford $2000 or whatever the going rate is these days I am not sure you can say - oh you can't afford a puppy - you need to go to the second hand store - (yes people get out your darts now.)
What we need to do is educate people to the fact that they should demand certain tests and proof of that - or look elsewhere. There are breeders who try to do the right thing who some would call a BYB, but if the consumer demands the testing and proof (through OFA or Penn Hip or whatever) they will step up. OES may not be for everyone, but I do believe we sometimes shrink the pool too much. And as has often been pointed out, not every first time OES owner should get a rescue, they often are in rescue because they are not the best (or easiest to live with) representative of the the breed And now back to your regular programming. I really agree Kerry, that this is a discussion we should be having^^^ Im not sure, though, if when suggesting how to shop for a good breeder that health testing is the only concern. Lots of the BYB issues Ive seen discussed on this forum have nothing to do with hip/eyes etc....temperament issues, worms, UTIs from unsanitary conditions, or even the breeding of sheepies the size of St Bernards (something I know bugs you, as it does me )
Again...I agree that that's a topic Id like to see discussed, though. Im not a breeder, or shower, but I find the conversations about these issues fascinating. As to recommending how to find a good breeder... Im not sure what to tell people, other than: dont be in a hurry...no such thing as too much research. |
ravenmoonart wrote: kerry wrote: I have a problem with how this discussion is starting to go - no one in special, just generally. You know its when we start to talk in such generalities that we lose people. If someone wants a puppy, and cannot afford $2000 or whatever the going rate is these days I am not sure you can say - oh you can't afford a puppy - you need to go to the second hand store - (yes people get out your darts now.) What we need to do is educate people to the fact that they should demand certain tests and proof of that - or look elsewhere. There are breeders who try to do the right thing who some would call a BYB, but if the consumer demands the testing and proof (through OFA or Penn Hip or whatever) they will step up. OES may not be for everyone, but I do believe we sometimes shrink the pool too much. And as has often been pointed out, not every first time OES owner should get a rescue, they often are in rescue because they are not the best (or easiest to live with) representative of the the breed And now back to your regular programming. I really agree Kerry, that this is a discussion we should be having^^^ Im not sure, though, if when suggesting how to shop for a good breeder that health testing is the only concern. Lots of the BYB issues Ive seen discussed on this forum have nothing to do with hip/eyes etc....temperament issues, worms, UTIs from unsanitary conditions, or even the breeding of sheepies the size of St Bernards (something I know bugs you, as it does me )Again...I agree that that's a topic Id like to see discussed, though. Im not a breeder, or shower, but I find the conversations about these issues fascinating. As to recommending how to find a good breeder... Im not sure what to tell people, other than: dont be in a hurry...no such thing as too much research. Thank you - funny one or more of those things you highlighted don't go away when you get a dog from an OESCA breeder and there are no guarantees in life - but yes!!! there should be a discussion of what people should look for and I have always said OESCA breeder is to simplistic and in some cases unrealistic, never mind a real valid stamp of approval. |
SheepieMommy wrote: I also agree with you about that some dogs in Rescue can have issues but that is not always the case. As sad as this is to say, there are a lot of GREAT dogs in rescue right now. Dogs that have been given up not due to behavioral issues, but economic ones. Dogs that under other circumstances may NEVER have been parted from their families are now being given up as people lose their jobs and their homes. It's devastating to see these wonderful and much loved dogs come through rescue; but if you are considering a rescue dog, now is an ideal time to get a really lovely companion that way. |
| I guess this is a good a place as any to tell about my
experience with a "breeder" in it for the money. I know alot of us have had dogs that come into rescue that we do not know the story just the sadness in their eyes... BUT... This is Katie who came into rescue she was pulled by a conact 30 minutes before she was to be euthanized at animal control. 
Two months before Katie was for sale on the internet... I offered to help find her a home at the time but, my help was not needed the "breeder" said. The above pic was after 10 days at the boarding facility where they were treating her wounds everyday! If I could get my hands on the pictures from the first day she was brought in I would press charges BUT, that is too another story! When I contacted the "breeder" his story was since she could not be bred(the only male was her father) and the other female(that could be bred) was attacking her they took her to animal control to get medical attention! Yes, that is where they took her after her mouth was ripped open...seems the vet was closed but, animal control was open 
Does this look like a dog that was not bred???
Anyway Katie now Breezey is in a wonderful home but, she was 30 minutes from dying that day!
She was no longer a "money maker" to the breeder so she was discarded... I can not believe this is what anybody would knowingly support!
I know of quite a few dogs from this breeder that have gone through various rescues. The good news is even though Breezey has a pretty big scar it healed fine and did not require any additional surgery! This is her after a few more weeks in rescue 
She went to a new home in October where she continues to surf the counters for whatever she can find!!
 |
| Another thing about rescue...at least you have a chance of knowing some of what you're getting into. Many of a rescue dog's issues (depending on age and how much history the rescue org. had about them) should be already known before they are adopted. Personally, there are some "issues" that I feel as a dog owner that I could handle just fine...others, not so much. |
ravenmoonart wrote: Another thing about rescue...at least you have a chance of knowing some of what you're getting into. Many of a rescue dog's issues (depending on age and how much history the rescue org. had about them) should be already known before they are adopted. Personally, there are some "issues" that I feel as a dog owner that I could handle just fine...others, not so much.
Very good point! Foster families and breed specific rescues have a chance to really evaluate a dog, and even do some training themselves before a dog goes from there to its "forever home". I fostered for all of three days, and in that time we figured out that a dog we thought was feral (the pound was going to have it put to sleep on those grounds) in fact knew Sit, Stay, Down and how to leash walk! You can imagine my surprise when on the second night with us he went and got his leash and sat at the front door, asking to go for a walk! Sometimes we don't know where these dogs have been, but bringing them back into a stable home environment gives them a chance to relax and either recall what they may have forgotten, or learn things they will need to know to be good companions. |
| Yes, but you can't tell prospective puppy buyers they need to get a dog from a certain breeder, or take a rescue. that will drive people to the nearest BYB, its human nature.
ANd Kathy sorry, its a shame that people have to resort to such things to support their families, but money maker makes it sound like they are making a fortune. |
kerry wrote: And Kathy sorry, its a shame that people have to resort to such things to support their families, but money maker makes it sound like they are making a fortune.
Now that's something I've always wondered. They can't REALLY be making that much money, can they? They have to pay for docking & dew claws, initial shots, food, vetting for the breeder dogs... none of this is cheap. And its true, they aren't charging thousands of dollars for these pups. I don't think my BYB was malicious; maybe more ignorant and uncaring than anything else. But she couldn't have been making that much money from what she was doing. So WHY are they doing it? I was more open to the idea of BYB before my experience with Tonks and Luna. My mom was a nice lady that had a championship line OES that had a litter. It was the 1970's and things were different back then. But it made me think that all BYBs were like my mom; a nice lady with a great pedigree dog that didn't want to show but wanted to have puppies. My mom only had the one litter, but she loved the experience. But to this day she talks about how she didn't make a dime doing it. Paying the stud fee, the vets bills, the high end food for her bitch and the pups after they were weaned... she said it really added up. And they only had three pups survive. One died after the birth, we kept one, and one had behavioral issues that made her inappropriate for placement. So in the end, my mother sold one puppy. But she loved doing it, and I think she may have stuck with it, had her dog not been as old as it was. I think she was 6 when she had her first litter, and afterward my mother decided that it was too late an age to be having litters. |
kerry wrote: Yes, but you can't tell prospective puppy buyers they need to get a dog from a certain breeder, or take a rescue. that will drive people to the nearest BYB, its human nature.
ANd Kathy sorry, its a shame that people have to resort to such things to support their families, but money maker makes it sound like they are making a fortune. Those were the breeders words not mine.... He said how else could he put his daughter into an expensive college. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: kerry wrote: And Kathy sorry, its a shame that people have to resort to such things to support their families, but money maker makes it sound like they are making a fortune. Now that's something I've always wondered. They can't REALLY be making that much money, can they? They have to pay for docking & dew claws, initial shots, food, vetting for the breeder dogs... none of this is cheap. And its true, they aren't charging thousands of dollars for these pups. I don't think my BYB was malicious; maybe more ignorant and uncaring than anything else. But she couldn't have been making that much money from what she was doing. So WHY are they doing it? I was more open to the idea of BYB before my experience with Tonks and Luna. My mom was a nice lady that had a championship line OES that had a litter. It was the 1970's and things were different back then. But it made me think that all BYBs were like my mom; a nice lady with a great pedigree dog that didn't want to show but wanted to have puppies. My mom only had the one litter, but she loved the experience. But to this day she talks about how she didn't make a dime doing it. Paying the stud fee, the vets bills, the high end food for her bitch and the pups after they were weaned... she said it really added up. And they only had three pups survive. One died after the birth, we kept one, and one had behavioral issues that made her inappropriate for placement. So in the end, my mother sold one puppy. But she loved doing it, and I think she may have stuck with it, had her dog not been as old as it was. I think she was 6 when she had her first litter, and afterward my mother decided that it was too late an age to be having litters. I am sure a lot of people do it for the same reason your mother did. Of course according to the list of things we are telling ... You know this really needstot be a seperate thread |
kerry wrote: I am sure a lot of people do it for the same reason your mother did. Of course according to the list of things we are telling ... You know this really needstot be a seperate thread Actually, this thread has lots of fodder for interesting separate threads. somebody made a comment earlier, about "...my stupid 1st OES acquisition story..." and I was thinking that this could make great "cautionary tale" reading No good for me to start...I was luck, luck LUCKY...my uncle married a woman who does OES rescue . If I had just gone out looking, I wouldn't have had a clue |
| Maybe we just need to educate people on how to save their money in order to afford the few hundred dollars more... |
ButtersStotch wrote: Maybe we just need to educate people on how to save their money in order to afford the few hundred dollars more...
Good luck on that one. Unfortunately it's a society of instant gratification & then disposal when the newness wears off. Sorry to sound so mean about it but when you've heard as many stories as I've heard over the years from people calling for not only puppies but stud service, it's hard not to get discouraged. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: ButtersStotch wrote: Maybe we just need to educate people on how to save their money in order to afford the few hundred dollars more... Good luck on that one. Unfortunately it's a society of instant gratification & then disposal when the newness wears off. Sorry to sound so mean about it but when you've heard as many stories as I've heard over the years from people calling for not only puppies but stud service, it's hard not to get discouraged. It's not mean, it's really what this all comes down to: I don't want to wait and save up money OR it just doesn't mean enough to me to bother so I'd rather spend as little as possible. I'm happy when people come on here honestly looking for advice and make a better decision based on what forum members tell them. Other people just want an affirmation. They don't want the truth or care about real life experiences or facts, all they really want is someone to agree with them so they feel better about the choice they're making. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I'm happy when people come on here honestly looking for advice and make a better decision based on what forum members tell them. Other people just want an affirmation. They don't want the truth or care about real life experiences or facts, all they really want is someone to agree with them so they feel better about the choice they're making.
I just wish they'd come on & ask BEFORE they already have their heart set on a breeder & a puppy. Then things would be taken so much more positively rather than feeling like we are being negative about their choices. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: I just wish they'd come on & ask BEFORE they already have their heart set on a breeder & a puppy. Then things would be taken so much more positively rather than feeling like we are being negative about their choices.
From your view point, as a reputable breeder that prides themselves on raising the standard of the dogs we love best, I can understand that. But I've been guilty of being EXACTLY the kind of person you write about here. I only joined the group after I'd picked my pups, but before I'd gotten them home. Once we make what we think is a good decision, its hard to understand what everyone is so up in arms about. It's also hard to not want to defend that decision in the face of so many people telling us its wrong. I learned the hard way that you guys were correct and that what I did wasn't in the best interest of the breed, of my future dogs, or the breeding industry/institution. It doesn't make me love my dogs any less, but I sure wouldn't go any route OTHER than reputable breeder or rescue if I have to do it again. But I had to learn that the hard way. I'm not stupid; but even smart people make less than smart decisions sometimes. Hopefully those people will see those decisions through to the end, and not bail when things get difficult. |
| Maybe the OP should read my post on the money I spent on Guinness....He was a BYB dog (came into another breed rescue I work with) I love him for him (get it) I think there are too many homeless dogs and I don't need a show dog. That said many have asked my why do I take rescues that cost me so much money?? Well I do BUT if I were to buy a dog I would pay the 2,000 or 2,500 for a dog that met standards for the breed as well as health. I know nothing is a given but saving money in the beginning is not always saving money. Some folks just don't understand that concept. I do One day I may purchase a dog .When that time comes It will not be a $700 dog . Unless a marvelous breeder wants the most wonderful home in the world and is willing to give me that price I hope these folks take a long look at what we have to say . There are not many folks that would spend the money I did or work with the issues like Luna and Tonks momma did. Just my little ol opinion. |
4dognight wrote: When that time comes It will not be a $700 dog . Unless a marvelous breeder wants the most wonderful home in the world and is willing to give me that price
I'm pretty sure you won't even have to pay $700! |
| And the saying goes, "If you can't buy from a reputable breeder, rescue a homeless dog." I've been all 3 routes... byb, rescue and show breeder. Fortunately all have been of the same loving, goofy temperament and equally wonderful companions. Some of the health things suck... hip problems, allergies, low thyroid. When buying any puppy or rescuing a dog, consider a minimum 2 year health plan that specifically covers congenital problems and chronic health conditions. If you can't afford the extra $500 to buy from a reputable breeder, how will you ever pay for a long term health issue in your discount priced dog?
There will always be backyard breeders... no way around it because there will always be a public demand for inexpensive puppies. And there will always be a need for rescues and individuals to clean up after both irresponsible breeders and the people who buy from them. Yes, the only hope is that some people will become better educated before buying and that some breeders will become better educated about breeding. What amazes me sometimes is the breeders that are selling their puppies for $900 to $1,500 and they have no proof they've got at least healthy breeding dogs. So no pretesting, no championships to indicate they're built according to a breed standard yet they're still asking and getting even these prices. But pricing is all based on demand, availability and whatever the market will bear. Buyers need to understand that there can be money in breeding dogs. Some will breed a bitch as soon as she can throw a litter and then repeatedly, leaving her old before her time. A red flag will be that they don't pretest or show and they provide only minimal care for their dogs. 5 bitches and 1 stud, breed them once a year and if each has 6 pups and they sell for $1,000, you bring in $30,000. Breed them each season and have an occasional litter of 11 pups which isn't unheard of and the profit goes up. Just euthanize any dogs or puppies with a problem to keep the overhead down... discount, hide or cull deaf puppies in the line. As a side note, there's a pup on Puppyfind right now that's discounted to $300 because he might be slightly deaf but he does have an "Ofa cert backround and have pedigree to prove it." What? Some breeders will adapt by picking up on key phrases that indicate a better bred dog and make it work for them. Anyway, dump used up, sick/injured or simply no longer wanted breeding dogs in a holding pen at animal control in the middle of the night. Don't include the mandatory return of a dog in a purchase agreement and disappear when customers start having behavioral or health problems (yeah, heard about the behavior one again on Tuesday)... they provided little if any guidance on properly raising and caring for an OES so they've basically taken the money and run. If enough buyers complain to the right people they eventually go out of business or change their "kennel" name and location. And buyer beware the ads that say the puppy comes with full AKC registration... is the seller truly be concerned about the dogs they're selling or what will be done with them once sold? And so it goes... |
| My molly was an owner surrender,long story,she has papers but the breeder dissapeared. Enough said... Jaci you are right on the money. |
| My point was - you can't tell every puppy buyer that comes along - if you don't buy a $2000 dog you have to go second hand (that's what they hear.)
There has to be a way to educate without insulting or at best turning them off. And I'll see all your individual "rescue" health bills and raise you Morgan - nuff said. |
kerry wrote: And I'll see all your individual "rescue" health bills and raise you Morgan - nuff said. I may be naive but, what does that statement mean?? |
| It would be very interesting to take a poll on Puppies from BYB in regards to the health/ behavoir problems versus puppies from Quality Breeders in regards to health/ behavoir problems~~~
I have been on this forum for only 2 years, but it seems to me, the people who post about problems, are by far BYB dogs.. Again, just a thought..... IMHO...there is no valid reason for buying from a BYB~~~ unless ignorance is a valid reason. |
| Emotions come in to play alot, and instant gratification. At the same time Tonks and Luna's litters were whelped, there was a litter in Toronto Canada from a reputable breeder. I had every intention of flying to Toronto and meeting the breeder and picking my puppy; so add that cost to the $2000 for the pup and the cost of flying it back. I had the money, so while I'm not rich, that wasn't an obstacle for me.
But seeing the litter here in Atlanta changed everything. My will power evaporated; I knew what everyone said the right thing was to do, but when Tonks and Luna climbed into my lap, I felt like my dogs picked me. Another big factor was Adam; he really didn't want a dog at all. He wasn't going to fly with me to Toronto. But getting him to drive to a BYB 20 minutes from my house wasn't as hard. And having him see the pups and melt... well that was a big factor too. I'm not saying it was right; I'm the one screaming from the mountain tops how wrong it all is. But its what we did for (at the time) what we thought were good reasons. Of course we now know better. Even Adam watches the dogs shows and is transfixed seeing the Championship line Sheepdogs. Should we find ourselves in a position to get another dog, we'll do it very differently than going to a BYB again. |
| I think part of it, too, is the thinking of It won't happen to me. My dog will be just fine and healthy and happy, even if it's from a BYB. People think the chances of something being wrong with the dog will be small, just because they've heard of so many people who have BYB dogs who are fine, or are the best dogs in the world. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I'm not saying it was right; I'm the one screaming from the mountain tops how wrong it all is.
But it is human nature - and just because you can't see yourself doing something, it doesn't help anything if you ignore the fact that most other people without your experience will make a different choice (as Allison did) when confronted with the choice between an adorable puppy they see locally (and at a two for one price) or a bunch of people saying "if you can't spend twice that you have to take a second hand dog who is most likely no longer a puppy" It would turn me off if I was looking for information. I think we often do mor eharm than good and should stick to - these are the tests you have to see officially posted on the OFA website before you buy a puppy. |
barney1 wrote: I think part of it, too, is the thinking of It won't happen to me. My dog will be just fine and healthy and happy, even if it's from a BYB. People think the chances of something being wrong with the dog will be small, just because they've heard of so many people who have BYB dogs who are fine, or are the best dogs in the world.
RIGHT! I thought I was soooo careful; asking to see all of the parents and evaluating the living environment. And it is a "It won't happen to me" for some people. We met one of Tonks' litter mates at an Atlanta Area Sheepdog Day, and they have had NONE of the problems with their dog that we have had with Tonks and Luna. Tonks' sister has been healthy and normal since day one. AND the breeder (probably because it was a problem free situation) still answers their emails and call. It was actually kind of funny; Daisy (Tonks' sister) owners called me when the girls were about 18 months old. Daisy had diarrhea and they wanted to know if I thought they should take her to the vet. She'd never in all the time they had her had a runny stool. I was flabbergasted. ALL we'd had for a year and a half was soft to wet poop!!! So it can be hit or miss. That's why I refer to going with a reputable breeder as stacking the deck in your favor. No things in life are 100% guaranteed, but why take unnecessary risks? |
kerry wrote: and just because you can't see yourself doing something, it doesn't help anything if you ignore the fact that most other people without your experience will make a different choice (as Allison did) when confronted with the choice between an adorable puppy they see locally (and at a two for one price)
Are you kidding? Tonks and Luna were $650 each; the Canada puppy was $2000. Add my flight there and back, a rental car to get to the breeder, probably an overnight stay in a hotel and the flight for the puppy? I could have easily bought "Four for the price of One" BYB puppies!!!
But... what money I did save was spent easily in the first month at the vet. Like I said earlier; it was (for me) never about the cost. I had the money saved up, and had been saving a long time. I was prepared to buy a $2000 puppy, and pay for the flights and such. My change of heart was all about the emotional aspect of the deal. |
| There is also the "condition" that Ive often heard refereed to as "Puppy Fever"
Its almost like a hormonal thing! I had it so bad when we were looking for our most recent sheepie (Eggbert), that I think I traumatized a few rescue folk and breeders by being apt to burst into tears on the phone.
After having lost my old boy, Spencer, I was feeling desperate for a pup (or adult sheepie) and was NOT at my decision-making-best, to say the least Lucky for me, I also had some good "advisers" to help me out, and no "impulse buy" puppies anywhere within driving distance! |
| I just want to chime in and say there is more to being an ethical breeder than just doing health checks. Walter's parents had their hips certified and he had a 2 year health guarantee. However, he is a total psycho. It's not just him either, as two of his half brothers are on this message board with very similar issues. They eventually spayed his mom, but I can't imagine how many crazy Walter's there are out there!
There are other things too that I think we would all (or most) agree makes an ethical breeder. Combine all these things together and I think there are very few people that are able and willing to go through with. |
Quote: I just want to chime in and say there is more to being an ethical breeder than just doing health checks.
Very true. If I had to choose between having a healthy dog that bit people and dog with a health condition that loved everyone, I'd take the second dog every time. But I want a dog that will be totally sound physically and mentally. Unfortunately, dogs aren't cars where you can simply replace a defective part and have it run perfectly fine again. (Oooo... can ya tell we just got a call from the transmission place? ) BYB or show breeder... stuff happens because you're dealing with living creatures. But I want to reduce the chance of having a problem by going through someone ethical if I'm going to buy a dog.
It can look good on paper to OFA and CERF the breeding stock... I've seen more non-show breeders who advertise saying they do it. But you're right, Heather. There's more to it than just testing. Anyone see the ad the other day for a 16 month old OES mother in Illinois that could leave for a new home the following week? It said, "...She is not a good mother at all. She currently has a litter of puppies but does not want to take care of them. I would strongly recomend that she not be bred again...". I hope the pups can get the nurturing they need to become stable adults... |
| well heather if you go back ot my earlier posts I was emphasizing talking to every one you can who has or has had a dog from the breeder in question, not just their last litter.
Health checks and doing what people do on here- "who knows anything" may be your best bet. Or you can learn about "that issue" later on. I have met people at local shows who have bred for years, have nice little (as in correct size) dogs and bitches, their conformation might not be hte best - or it could be they don't use handlers who knows. But they have occassional champions recent , for their own reasons they refuse to belong to OESCA (and don't ask I can't even remember their names) but they seem ot be doing everything right - who knows. But I got sidetracked and said we should discuss how to answer these questions without turning peole off by implying that buying that cute little puppy may be the downfall of mankind as we know it. |
ravenmoonart wrote: There is also the "condition" that Ive often heard refereed to as "Puppy Fever"
Its almost like a hormonal thing! I had it so bad when we were looking for our most recent sheepie (Eggbert), that I think I traumatized a few rescue folk and breeders by being apt to burst into tears on the phone.After having lost my old boy, Spencer, I was feeling desperate for a pup (or adult sheepie) and was NOT at my decision-making-best, to say the least Lucky for me, I also had some good "advisers" to help me out, and no "impulse buy" puppies anywhere within driving distance! Oh I'm pretty sure I had puppy fever. I waited SO LONG to get an OES, that once I decided it was time (poor Adam had no choice in the matter) I was unstoppable. I think Adam understood this, and just stepped out of my manic way. |
| I had it too when I got Nigel. I had just lost my OES Winston to the Chinese poisoned pet food and was desperate!
Both of my dogs are from reputable breeders, both out of lines that were shown to their championships. One is very healthy, one has had a number of health problems. My last dog was from a hobby breeder and never was sick until the poison. Sometimes it's just dumb luck too. |
| Allison...
Please don't think anything I have said was meant towards your decision to get Tonks and Luna! They are very lucky girls that they had you and Adam to stick it out! Alot of people would have not.... It takes alot to work with issues, you did awesome! (continue to as well) All said...it is all about the love of our dogs no matter where they come from, what the issues are.... I never, ever thought I could love or have the connection I did with my Quin. Finn, my deaf baby has totally helped with that. I am still in contact with his breeder, she was told that she should euthanize him by her vet and I thank heavens she did not.. She did the responsible act to find him a loving home! So, back to that point it is alll about responsibilty for what you bring into the world! Most breeders on here I believe have that and I totally respect them! |
| I'm not trying to be argumentative... but it's possible to be a resposible breeder without beeing an OESCA recommended breeder. Itsalso possible to be a good breeder without showing dogs. sometimes the things people say on here can come of as a bit snooty. I'm just sayn t can come off bad to be so judgmental about breeders who aren't "in the club". it's similar to saying that someone without a PhD can't comlete meaningful research, it's blatantly false and rather judgmental |
new OES in Illinois wrote: I'm not trying to be argumentative... but it's possible to be a resposible breeder without beeing an OESCA recommended breeder. Itsalso possible to be a good breeder without showing dogs. sometimes the things people say on here can come of as a bit snooty. I'm just sayn t can come off bad to be so judgmental about breeders who aren't "in the club". it's similar to saying that someone without a PhD can't comlete meaningful research, it's blatantly false and rather judgmental
A lot of what you say is true. But one thing that stands out is this: If you are a responsible breeder, breeding to the standard, how can you know your dogs & your breeding program are moving in that direction if you do not compare them to others of the same breed in a competitive setting? It's all about bettering the breed. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: new OES in Illinois wrote: I'm not trying to be argumentative... but it's possible to be a resposible breeder without beeing an OESCA recommended breeder. Itsalso possible to be a good breeder without showing dogs. sometimes the things people say on here can come of as a bit snooty. I'm just sayn t can come off bad to be so judgmental about breeders who aren't "in the club". it's similar to saying that someone without a PhD can't comlete meaningful research, it's blatantly false and rather judgmental A lot of what you say is true. But one thing that stands out is this: If you are a responsible breeder, breeding to the standard, how can you know your dogs & your breeding program are moving in that direction if you do not compare them to others of the same breed in a competitive setting? It's all about bettering the breed. Do you really think we get that feedback through the show venue - honest question from and observer. I mean you see people judge shopping in all breeds and that doesn't sound like objective competitive settings does it? |
| you have a good point about the showing... hadn't thought about it that way before |
new OES in Illinois wrote: you have a good point about the showing... hadn't thought about it that way before
Cool! I promise we're not all over zealous crazies about this, nor are we saying that buying from a reputable breeder is guarantee that you won't have problems, too but you really start stacking the deck in your favor early by doing so. Especially since a reputable breeder will usually be much more involved with your concerns since they know their lines well and, from experience, what could be potential red flags. The more you're involved in the breed club, the more exposure you end up having to issues and trends with breed. At shows, people talk and learn things there, too. Not being involved in those activities puts you in a vacuum and your breeding program can stagnate. |
Donner's Mom wrote: Allison...
Please don't think anything I have said was meant towards your decision to get Tonks and Luna! I don't! I learned to have a pretty thick skin when it came to my girls. To read about it online is one thing; but when people meet Tonks and Luna they are always so surprised at how happy, well behaved and not demented they are. To meet my girls is to love them; to read about them... well it sounds like a horror story to most!!! And really; I wasn't kidding when I said I was glad to be a cautionary tale. If tales of my misery and hardship helps someone else to avoid the ordeal we had to go through, then it was worth it. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: when people meet Tonks and Luna they are always so surprised at how happy, well behaved and not demented they are. Unlike when people meet me and are not at all surprised at how miserable, out of control and crazy I am. And creepy.
Right Darcy? |
| Well ron, youcan always come by Atlanta for some "training". We'll work on it.
Can I just say how awesome it is that we've been on this subject for 6 or 7 pages, and there's been no name calling, no snippiness, no degenerating into cliques and I don't think we've scared anyone off with our aggressive passion for breed standards. We've behaved in a most adult and considerate fashion. What the heck is going on here?!? |
| True and we havent even had to resort to posting about Lisa's boob, I mean tooth job. |
Mim wrote: True and we havent even had to resort to posting about Lisa's boob, I mean tooth job.
LOL!!!! |
| By the way, what are you and Ron doing up at this hour? |
| good question; my Endo has my hormones screwed up and I have insomnia. Ron; is your estrogen all over the map too???? |
| Ron is mad, see his dream post!! |
| If Lisa can get her boobs done when she gets her tooth replaced, I want Liposuction when I go in for my hysterectomy. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: good question; my Endo has my hormones screwed up and I have insomnia. Ron; is your estrogen all over the map too???? Yes, but Joan is sleeping at the moment.
|
| Now you're talking!!!
That is definitely a plan. |
| okay; this has to be the WORST thread de-railment EVER!!!! |
| I was just thinking that!
Apologies to all, especially the original author, it was a moment of madness. |
new OES in Illinois wrote: I'm not trying to be argumentative... but it's possible to be a resposible breeder without beeing an OESCA recommended breeder. Itsalso possible to be a good breeder without showing dogs. sometimes the things people say on here can come of as a bit snooty. I'm just sayn t can come off bad to be so judgmental about breeders who aren't "in the club". it's similar to saying that someone without a PhD can't comlete meaningful research, it's blatantly false and rather judgmental
Thanks for hanging in here with us. I agree with you on this point to some degree and that is why I encourage you to be a pioneer in your research. Everyone starts somewhere.... I was an uneducated buyer. I never considered before my vet told me after I bought my puppy in 1995 to look at the parent's health history. When I was looking for the next dog in 2006 I called my vet first and came here. By going through the OESCA breeder referral I contacted breeders on that list who due to their commitment for the betterment of the breed were able to give me a lot of input about testing and things I should ask when looking for a puppy. They took the time to help me even though they knew it was unlikely that they would be selling me a puppy because I would probably find a quality breeder before they had a litter available. For that I was very grateful. The best news is that now you can see a lot of the health records online for the different breeds. If any breeder is taking these steps to make sure that they are breeding a healthy line, for no known defects with hip dyslplasia for example, then they would want those records made public. The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) has those records. Even though my dog is fixed I had his hips and elbows tested because he does a lot of agility. You can go to the link below to look at his records to learn a little about the site: http://www.offa.org/search.html You can search my AKC #, name or breed. Harry's AKC # is DN11624810 On hips for example, there are seven ratings: excellent, good, fair, borderline, mild, moderate and severe. A reputable breeder will not breed a dog with anything less than fair hips. And they should not breed the dog before the age of two as the dog is not done growing before then. Using Harry as an example, if you go to his records you will see his parents and some siblings listed below his test results. By clicking on their names you can see their records. So in his case his mother was age 3 when bred and her hips were rated excellent. His father was 2 1/2 years old and his hips were rated good. In comparison my previous dog ended up with severe hip dysplasia. We discovered this at eight months old when the dog was at the vet's for some skin issues (another of her lifetime problems) and the vet asked to x-ray her hips. The hip bone was completely out of the socket. When I contacted the breeder she gave me the name of the owners of her two siblings and the owner of her sire. I was able to get in touch with one of the sibling's owners who also had just discovered their dog was dysplastic. When I call the owner of the sire she informed me that "Cedric does have a bad hip but it is because he was hit by a car". I knew then of course that was most probably a lie. If I had known about testing and if records were so public back then I would never have bought the offspring of a dysplastic dog. I bought that dog for $450 in 1995 and in the first year alone I spent over $1000 in medical bills for health issues. The expenses were really bad in the last half of her life when she was on expensive pills for her hip dysplasia. I hope that helps you with some of the research you have been doing. Hip dysplasia is just one component but a frequent problem in this breed particulary with the backyard bred dogs. That brings us to the idea of the non-OESCA breeders. I would love to see them educated as well. If more and more people ask about these records then those conscientious but uneducated breeders might start taking steps in the right direction. You may be lucky enough to find some non-OESCA breeders out there who are starting these tests and making them available for everyone to see. As a word of caution, be careful of taking breeders word for it, if they claim something - ask for proof, otherwise a blanket statement such as "we have never had hip dysplasia in our line" means nothing. A couple of other tips- Ask for referrals of other people who have purchased one of their dogs. Although no one will ever willingly give you the names of dissatisfied customers you may be able to get some information. In my case I asked for names of people in my area. Then I called to meet with them so I could see the dog myself. Ask for the name and number of their veterinarian. In addition to the health of the line the vet offered insight into the temperament of line as well. Ask your own veterinarian for some advice given what you have learned. They might be able to offer something you had not considered. Good luck. I know you are anxious but you are making an investment in a valuable family member, one who may be a companion to children at some point. I hope this helped in some way and was not discouraging. That was not really my original intent and I apologize if it came off snooty in any way. |
| It IS funny to think of them all waking up to this nonsense though, isn't it?
To recap: many of us urge potential owners to go through what is generally considered a "reputable breeder" or rescue. Its been conceded that we don't all always follow our own suggestions, but more often than not we've learned from earlier mistakes we've made oursleves. Lisa would like a boob job over serious dental surgery, and Allison wants to be about 4 dress sizes smaller and sees having her girlie bits removed as a good place to start. And Ron is digging himself in deep with the wife. Did I miss anything? |
| JUDI?!? What are YOU doing up? Why are we all on here so late? |
| Trying to assist someone who asked for help with finding breeders.
Even though I apparently have not spent enough for my input to count at poker table. |
kerry wrote: ChSheepdogs wrote: new OES in Illinois wrote: I'm not trying to be argumentative... but it's possible to be a resposible breeder without beeing an OESCA recommended breeder. Itsalso possible to be a good breeder without showing dogs. sometimes the things people say on here can come of as a bit snooty. I'm just sayn t can come off bad to be so judgmental about breeders who aren't "in the club". it's similar to saying that someone without a PhD can't comlete meaningful research, it's blatantly false and rather judgmental A lot of what you say is true. But one thing that stands out is this: If you are a responsible breeder, breeding to the standard, how can you know your dogs & your breeding program are moving in that direction if you do not compare them to others of the same breed in a competitive setting? It's all about bettering the breed. Do you really think we get that feedback through the show venue - honest question from and observer. I mean you see people judge shopping in all breeds and that doesn't sound like objective competitive settings does it? Yes, I do. But you have to be very objective. It can be hard at times. And it helps to have friends that aren't afraid to "tell it like it is" when you don't win that day. By that I mean comparing your dog to the others that day. The important thing is to enter under judges who's opinion you really value because they have taken the time to tell you what they like or find lacking in your dog. And the other important thing learned at shows is observing the other entrants & what qualilties they might possibly have that could improve your lines where you feel you are lacking. And that includes being brave enough to say "I like this dog you are showing right now. Do you mind if I go over him & could you also tell me what you like about him & what items you would like to see improved?" Not an easy task even for someone in the breed for a long time. But if you want your dogs to stay strong & your lines to improve you need to have that objectivity. Yes, we all see dogs & people winning at times that have no businees winning. But again, the final decision on what direction your line takes is in your decisions. Some people don't care when it comes to selecting a stud dog. I've had people call me that found my name on the internet & all they are interested in is if I have an intact male & how much my stud fee is! When I ask if they are interested in anything else about him they say "Nope". I find it hard to see how anyone can improve on their lines if they don't take the time to see the other dogs that are out there & how they are satcking up against each other when they are looking at breeding. |
| good points. thanks Marilyn.
I still think looking on that there must be a better way. |
Quote: Oh I'm pretty sure I had puppy fever. I waited SO LONG to get an OES, that once I decided it was time (poor Adam had no choice in the matter) I was unstoppable. I think Adam understood this, and just stepped out of my manic way. You're not alone... we did the exact same thing. January 27, 2004. http://oesusa.com/Page1.htm After loosing our OES-mix to inoperable kidney tumors, we were totally devastated and heartbroken. It was only a matter of a few days after we put her to rest during exploratory surgery that we decided we had to bring in a full OES. Had only glanced at one once in real life... didn't know what it was at the time because it was shaved down. Thought it was a greyhound with funky blue eyes I was lucky because my two were extremely easy but it was just that... luck. I think it was due to all the handling the breeder and her husband did and the temperament of their mom. The breeder raised some cool companion dogs with wonderful temperaments. Her last pup to be born in April 2005 is now a therapy dog... proud of you and your mama, BeeBs!Quote: but it's possible to be a resposible breeder without beeing an OESCA recommended breeder.
So yes, I get where you're coming from. From a rescue point of view, I don't care about titles if dogs produced are healthy and mentally sound and the breeder respects and stands by their dogs and the dogs they produce. But as Marilyn is teaching us, how many breeders don't have a clue about what makes a good breeding dog? From my own perspective, having only seen my 4 rescue and byb OESs, I never knew about even the simple coat deficiency mine had until living with Bumble. (Bummer I have to keep his coat short now.) It makes bathing the girls easier but sheesh! An OES can have a marvelous coat.
So if there are breeders that have never seen a show dog bred to standard in person so how do they know their dog's are good examples? These dogs are so easy to love and adore that people can get caught up in thinking they're dogs are perfect examples of the breed. I felt sad when we scheduled the appointment to spay Emma and Darby back in 2004 because these dogs were just so darn amazing to me. My first OESs, first purebred dogs, first females, etc. After all, they were "AKC" for pete's sake which meant they were fine quality... didn't it? Oh yeah, I thought being AKC was a stamp of approval. But how many breeders out there think the same thing but are acting on it by breeding there dogs? I'm not a professional but I've seen some quirky examples of the breed. |
| I agree with the above statement; until you've had your hands one a well bred Sheepdog, its hard to imagine that the difference could be so big. Tonks and Luna are lovely; and having read the breed standard online, I realize that Tonks is probably closer to standard than Luna is. THEN I met a breeder at one of our Sheepdog get togethers here in Atlanta. They have 7 OES right now I think, all shown in the ring with their championships attached. And I've met some of these dogs offspring. What a HUGE difference from my girls!
I've already put my name on the list should they breed again in the next couple of year. |
Quote: But as Marilyn is teaching us, how many breeders don't have a clue about what makes a good breeding dog? From my own perspective, having only seen my 4 rescue and byb OESs, I never knew about even the simple coat deficiency mine had until living with Bumble. (Bummer I have to keep his coat short now.) It makes bathing the girls easier but sheesh! An OES can have a marvelous coat.
The difference is staggering, isn't it? Owen and Clyde have about the same length of coat right now but the thickness and texture couldn't be more different. I gave them both baths the other day and I had Clyde washed and dried in about an hour. Owen took about 40 minutes to wash, an hour and a half with the crate dryer and then another 45 minutes of hand drying with a high powered dryer. In a way, it's nice to have one of each because when we go places and people ask questions, it's very easy to put them side and by side and show people the obvious differences in good breeding versus not so good breeding. I think having that visual for people really helps them understand. Some people get really interested and I encourage them to feel their bodies to feel the difference in structure, too. It's always amazing to me that people actually do ask a lot of questions and really listen. I hope they take that info with them. |
**giggle** Yup I think so.  |
| Depth and amount of coat are something that is different in OES from other countries. My Rosie and Myrddin came from the UK. They did NOT have the undercoat nor cotton candy thick undercoat that many US dogs have. They had a true texture to their coat that i have not seen in many dogs here in the USA.
They were a different 'type' OES all together. A bit on the larger, leggier side I will admit. But both OES in every bit. They were both square upon measurement just didn't look it. But the coat was the most different factor. |
Darth Snuggle wrote: I agree with the above statement; until you've had your hands one a well bred Sheepdog, its hard to imagine that the difference could be so big. Tonks and Luna are lovely; and having read the breed standard online, I realize that Tonks is probably closer to standard than Luna is. THEN I met a breeder at one of our Sheepdog get togethers here in Atlanta. They have 7 OES right now I think, all shown in the ring with their championships attached. And I've met some of these dogs offspring. What a HUGE difference from my girls!
That is really true. When we had Emma (rescue) you could tell that she was not right next to Edgar (from a proper breeder). The body structure was completely different. Edgar looked nicer, he walked better, his fur felt nicer. Absolutely a complete difference in the two dogs that were supposed to be OES. Well I guess they both had gray and white coats....
Sorry about the earlier comment. It was supposed to have been posted back when they were talking about the thread derailment. Not sure how it ended up so much later. |
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