Again, I need opinions (long) - agility class
Its our agility class. Or maybe I should say jump class since thats all we've been doing for months now. Maybe a tunnel here and there. The dog walk has not been seen in class, nor the a-frame, nor the table, nor the weave poles, nor the teeter for months. There's a "special" class held on Thursday's for weaves and teeter thats at 8:00pm and is half price for a half hour. By that time of the night I really have no energy, and thats kinda late...I think so anyway. And why should I pay for half a class for something they should be learning in regular class. Our instructor has no problem calling off class when she's sick, truck breaks down, family emergency, or when a bird falls out of the sky. We haven't worked on contacts since, well gosh I think it was a year ago. I really didn't think TOO much about it until Simon started run-thru's and Kristine mentioned that they (both dogs) have no concept of contacts. Neither dog know how to weave and Simon jumped off the middle of the teeter at the last run-thru because he got scared. This is something that we have worked hard on since he was terrified of it for so long. This is a step backwards. The teeter at the half class is..half size, not as long and doesn't go up as high as a full size one and thats what I think he got scared of. When I mentioned the size, she said "oh yeah I have a full size one but it didn't fit in my trailer but now I have a bigger trailer so I guess I can bring it"...haven't seen it. Each week I suggest maybe next week(if theres even a class that hasn't been called off) we can do weaves or table or work on contacts and she wholeheartedly agrees and then when we go its just jumps. I don't know if I need to be more vocal about this or if we need to find a new place or what I should do. |
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| Look for a new place. Been there done that. And this is a pet peeve of mine.
A lot of agility "schools" spring up with people who at the best used to run agility. Of course they answer the need for many people who just want to do something with their pet dog. But for the competitor, agility is a changing sport and the evolving science and theory behind it require you to find someone who is keeping up with all the changes. (We ran parts of a UKI course last week - ouch) If you are happy just getting out for the time being keep going while you do your research. At run thrus or trials ask people who you admire their runs where they train and then make some phone calls and some visits. My experience is that certifications, training titles and what not mean very little in this sport. The best trainer is someone who is currently running a dog- successfully, who ascribes to a "method" and someone you can relate to. My trainer uses Mecklenburg's (as does Kristine's I think) and I find it to be very sensible, has made a world of difference in the dogs' performance and my handling. You also need to accept the fact that the trainer may require you to go back to basics and start over as it were (I am voluntarily doing this with Morgan) a good foundation is priceless - unless you are lucky and have a dog like Marley who is very forgiving and can learn the basics skills while we work on more advanced handling. Of course you can keep going to the jump classes for fun while you work on skills elsewhere. and I can't say enough about private lessons. My husband was taking B to group lessons for months, I made him tag along on a semi private with me one week and now he does his own private lesson every week. You really get a lot more done in less time. so to recap my ramble: 1) ask questions when you see a dog running a nice course 2) visit classes and talk to instructors 3) always ask - what method do you teach? and ask them to explain it (you can come back here and see if what they said makes sense - Kristine will know) 4) think about skills classes, handling classes and private lessons ( we took weaves as a stand alone class last year- made a world of difference. this year in fun group I really noticed my handling was the issue and we are back to private lessons - and we will learn contacts someday  ) |
I would really love for you guys to take classes with Sue (who, by the way, audibly gasped when Gar went flying off the teeter   when you guys were at the run thru) Her common sense approach works very nicely with our breed. I don't know if she'd say she has or teaches a strict handling system per se, Kerry, though, yes, you see a lot of Linda M's underlying principles in what she teaches for sure - but she and every instructor I've worked with at Cream Cities has a real strong emphasis on clarity and consistency and that's been a god send for my poor confused dogs. That said, it's just too far for you guys to go, on top of which there are typically waiting lists.
Private lessons are great. But for two dogs can be really expensive to contemplate. All that said, I do think it's time to do as Kerry suggests and shop around. In the mean time, push your instructor. She's the one that said you & Simon are basically ready to enter a trial. But how can you be if you rarely see some major parts of the equipment???? And push her for feedback. Even if he did something basically correctly it's "could we have tightened that turn a little?" "would a front cross perhaps have worked better here?" (or whatever). Explain that you need her to really nit pick and push you because you feel like you're getting sloppy or whatever. It's the only way to really learn. For what it's worth, Simon does have some concept of contacts in that he does tend to collect and slow enough to hit the yellow. Would I bank on it holding up with trialing? I'm not sure. Gar on the other hand is so long strided I don't know what it would take to get him to do a running dogwalk contact at this point. His natural stride takes him right over the yellow.
I was really impressed, talking to Randy at the run-thrus - well, talking to both of you, but you make him sound so darn stubborn, like he never listens , but he really is there to learn. Some people just run their dogs around and if they do something remotely adequately that's OK, but both of you very obviously note what's missing in the instruction you're getting. That's the first step to filling in the gaps - the ability to realize there are some.
I think you've been taught some good things. I don't think your instructor is one of those glorified pet instructors who just teaches the game for fun by any means. But I also don't think she necessarily understands that this is not a breed that will fill in the blanks for you naturally. They have to understand their job and so do you. I'll look at some maps and ask some questions. How far away are you from Oconomowoc for starters? Kristine |
| I'd do as Kerry said.
If you are feeling the frustration and losing skills you already had, you already know the answer! 
If it were me and in this crappy weather,I might still value that training place as exercise and an energy outlet for a young dog like these guys, but not to rely on them as the primary instruction. Exercise, using the jumps as conditioning, working on something another class has you doing but can't practice at home right now because of the weather - all are valid points in my book for attending. But that's about it. I would be getting (or long ago gotten) fed up with the instructor. Especially if you have brought up concerns and nothing changes. Are you going there because it's closest? or recommended by someone initially - or just in a rut now? I know where you are there are soooo many more training opportunities in agility than where I am. If I was not liking our local classes (and they are pretty close - 20 miles and all but 2 miles on a 4 lane highway), I would have to drive over an hour one way just to find another class - and no guarantee it would be a good class - that's just the next towns that have classes offered.  And several that are in my classes do drive that far to attend these, every week. |
| Just a thought on the private lessons for two dogs (and two handlers) as I noted Dan and I split a semiprivate lesson which was actually cheaper than the private lesson I do for the same elength of time - some instructors do have "specials".
Also I currently do a one hour private lesson with both my dogs - and a notepad to keep things straight!. But at $65 an hour it actually is less than the $80 I used to spend a week for two group lessons and a half hour private, and I never miss a lesson I have already paid for because I only schedule when I am free We do some obedience review for the first 20 minutes or so, and then Marley gets agility, Morgan gets to work on foundations while Marley takes a break and we go back to some handling with Marley. And if you are good about practicing - a private every other week also seems to work better (for me) than group every week.
I'll probably go back to groups in the summer - we'll see how everyone does, but trying to juggle rally and agility trials, fun group, PT and breed as well as herding lessons in good weather made group lessons a hit or miss. As for distance- I drive 2 hours each way for herding, Kristine doesn't Kathi drive about that long for agility with Kodi? A longer trip less often for a good isntructor can make all the difference. |
| "I was really impressed, talking to Randy at the run-thrus - well, talking to both of you, but you make him sound so darn stubborn, like he never listens , but he really is there to learn."
I didn't mean to make him out to be stubborn, he just gets mad AT ME if I make suggestions or helpful hints. He thinks I'm criticizing him. "How far away are you from Oconomowoc for starters? " About 20 miles 
I just looked at a website for a place thats not far. The only problem is the instructor is my instructor's friend. Hmmm, business IS business. This Saturday is the Agility Demo at the State Fair Grounds(that both my dogs are in) and the "friend" will be there, so maybe I can talk to her privately then, just to ask casually about her classes and her training methods. |
| Good idea talking with your friend. I even go up and talk to strangers in various sports if I like the job they do. Nothing wrong with complimenting a nice performance by a team, and finding out where they train.
And if I can't use the info myself, I store it away to help friends out later. I often get asked to recommend training in other areas besides our local area. Think of it as a knowledge network! I would go check out the place where the friend of your instructor trains. Just because they are friends doesn't mean they run their classes the same way (if you could be so lucky!). You need to go where you can get what you need. And that changes (your needs) as you and the boys progress. Also, on the privates topic - I have done 4 private lessons, and I feel everyone helped me. Two were from a local instructor to help get us going, so we could get to the point of joining the class we are in now. The other 2 were with Sue F who Kristine trains with. She already knew us from the OES weekend (and you guys too), so it was easy for her to get right to work and give us constructive things to work on at home - and home is a 7 hour drive away! Also - don't forget any workshops/seminars in your area. I did one (besides Sue's) and found it helpful. I really believe in getting a wide variety of info, then sorting out and using what you want. Even if you don't agree with everything, or the method, I bet you will get a fresh perspective of things and it gets you thinking - always a good thing. If you pull one new thing that helps you as a team, it is worth it! And, getting the dogs and you into new, different buildings with a different group of dogs, a new feel to it, different sounds, textures, different equipment - that's all priceless. |
| Pam - http://www.thinkpawsitivedog.com/index.html ?
Kerry - last I knew Kathi trains at WAG, which isn't far from where she lives. Or at least she practices there. She may also take classes/privates with someone else, yes. I know she's worked with Dana Pike and quite possibly others. I haven't talked to her in forever. Hopefully I'll see her this weekend at the run-thru. Kristine |
| I know I had talked ot her on her way home from one class/lesson and we were on the phone over an hour. But that would have been a couple of years ago. |
kerry wrote: I know I had talked ot her on her way home from one class/lesson and we were on the phone over an hour. But that would have been a couple of years ago.
I love that we all so constructively use our drive time before and after classes to talk and compare notes! |
| Well, now that I've gone and complained, tonight we had the dogwalk and weaves. I worked Simon hard on contacts. Every time he went over I had to race to the other side and hopefully get there before he hopped off. My instructor, Nicole was just going to stand back and watch but I asked her to stay on the down side of the dogwalk to show me how to get him to touch. He normally loves the dogwalk but I think he got sick of me stopping him at the end |
| Eh, in which case you need to make stopping appealing for him or why would he do it?
How are you going to go about doing that? And glad class was productive! Kristine |
| Good to hear you got a chance to work on some of the skills you really need.
Seeing you are changing the game (requiring the contact), as Kristine said, make sure you really make the "new rules" fun and a desireable thing. Out of curiousity, how big is your class and what are the other students' feelings on this? Are they wanting to be competitive as well? Or are they happy just marking time? |
| Kristine, I have been treating him as he stands two feet on. This dog really loves his treats.
Dawn, here's the funny(weird not ha ha) thing. In my "class", there's me and one other person. They are clearly right out of beginners and the dog is VERY big dog reactive(even though Simon is not that big). They start a half hour before us and leave a half hour before we do. Seeing as their dog is reactive, we stay far away. There are two other people there with no dogs. They are Nicole's friends and help to clean up after class. Last night Simon ran towards the reactive dog twice and the two quickly moved in front of the dog. Simon came right back to me when I called him. Randy's class is on Thursday and there's three others in his class. |
| not to butt in (who me?) but if my class was that small - and my instructor didn't ask what kind of contact I wanted and then showed me how to get it with my particular dog (some like a game of tug, some a treat - Marley works for the "yes" marker) I would be cutting my losses and looking for a real instructor before I ended up having to retrain everything. Really, been there done that!!
Just playing on ht equipement with instruction may be fun, doesn't necessarily get you very far. |
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