When do they calm down?
My parents are having some issues with their sheepie and up until now they've sort of felt it was because she was a puppy or a young dog, but she's going to be 2 next month. Also, what is the best way to establish an alpha role with your dog? How to best stop a dog from growling at you? My parents are experienced sheepdog owners and experienced dog owners and they've never really had to deal with this before. |
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they get their brains at three  . But issues should be addressed whenever they come up.
Growling is a behavioral issue that should be addressed with the help of a skilled trainer in person. I can't help with the alpha dog question - I don't subscribe to that theory at all. My dogs Know they can trust me to protect them and that is why they behave (that and lots and lots of training). They eat before I do, they sleep on the bed, they go through doorways before me, they go down the stairs a head of me (thank dog!) and do all of the things I spent a couple of years trying to train them not to do when I was working with an alpha theory trainer. In my experience it didn't work, made my girl more nervous and my boy more brainless. What I do is make sure my dogs associate me with all that is good (food, fun, affection) and nothing negative (corrections are done but nothing verbal or overt). Works for me. Each dog is a new challenge and each one appears to bring its own needs. They need to find a real overall experienced trainer - not a one trick pony - that has a tool box full of approacheds to use with all sorts of dogs. Someone who can read a dog and not have overwhelming expectations or talks in buzz words. |
| ^^^^^^
What she said! Have they taken the dog to training? It really does work. |
| I think we really need to understand the situation completely in which the dog is growling, which probably isn't possible in an online forum and second person (which I don't mean in a jerk way, just that it's hard to get in the head of the dog for something this specific). Having a trainer observe the behavior really would probably help the most.
That being said, when does she growl at them? Is it out of nowhere or is it always a certain time? When a certain something is present? When they ask her to do something? Is it both of your parents or one or the other? Has she been doing it as long as they've had her? |
ButtersStotch wrote: I think we really need to understand the situation completely in which the dog is growling, which probably isn't possible in an online forum and second person (which I don't mean in a jerk way, just that it's hard to get in the head of the dog for something this specific). Having a trainer observe the behavior really would probably help the most.
That being said, when does she growl at them? Is it out of nowhere or is it always a certain time? When a certain something is present? When they ask her to do something? Is it both of your parents or one or the other? Has she been doing it as long as they've had her? Not taken in a jerk way at all. I was pretty vague in my post, both because I was scared of negative responses and because this is all from my parents so I myself don't know the whole story and probably can't explain it as well as I would need to. I'm not sure when she does it. I know she does growl, but I'm not sure the extent or all the circumstances. I know my dad comes on here to at least read, so maybe I can get him to post something more specific. What happened last night was she was licking herself (which I guess she does often, not just lick but lots of licking) and when that happens my dad usually places a hand on her (like literally places a hand gently) and she stops. Last night she didn't. She growled/snapped when he did it. But she's always had some unpredictable behavior (again, I don't know all the information so I don't feel like I could adequately explain, which is why I haven't tried). I just know that my parents are pretty frustrated right now, since they feel like they're doing all the right things and while she's very fun and sweet a lot of the time, she definitely has some issues. |
| It's so hard to say, but that example (based on very little information of course) reminded me of our Theeps. He was the sweetest, kindest dog, but he had problems with his knees (back legs). He did guard that area.
He never bit, but he would growl and snap at the air if you persisted. At one point he had a piece of cartilage that had broken off and was flowing free in his knee. If it wasn't irritating somethng he'd be fine. If it landed in a bad spot he'd be very protective. We had no idea, but did have his knee opened up and it was found and removed right away. He was pain free for years, until other knee problems developed. My first question is...have they talked to the vet and had her completely, top to bottom checked out? Throughout Theeper's life the vet would poke, prod, stretch, and twist his knees. It seemed borderline cruel but was necessary to keep tabs on everything. And as much as ThePas hated it, he seemed to understand it was a necessary evil. He never growled at the vet...not even once. One possibility is that she has pain somewhere. It might take a pretty thorough exam to find it or to rule it out. Also, their vet would also be a good source of advice if it turns out to be behavioural instead. If they haven't already, I'd start there. My second call (assuming nothing could be found) would be to a reputable behaviourist. Their vet probably can suggest someone. |
| I wonder if something hurts if she's doing serious, dedicated licking? Does she concentrate the licking on one area? That would explain a leave-me-alone-this-sucks-and-i'm-miserable-so-just-let-me-lick growl. Anxiety could also contribute to licking and growling, too, though. It's always good to do a plain ol' vet check to make sure everything is medically sound before trying to change behaviors, especially if it does turn out to be something that a vet can address.
Edit: I posted at the same time as Tracie-- agreed! |
| I think my dad said it's always one paw and her rear that she licks/chews. I was thinking pain somewhere too, but who knows. I'll suggest a vet trip to do a general poking and prodding of her. |
barney1 wrote: I think my dad said it's always one paw and her rear that she licks/chews. I was thinking pain somewhere too, but who knows. I'll suggest a vet trip to do a general poking and prodding of her.
Our Lucy licks these areas too. She had a vet visit this Friday, and our vet feels she might be allergic to something her anal glands secrete...he recommended an allergist . |
| I second the idea that something might be hurting her. I would get her checked by a vet and if all is okay then....
Obedience classes do work and she should be enrolled in one. As far as establishing the "alpha dog", I would recommend 30 minute downs, three times a week. Put the dog in a down and reward. Say "stay" and stay near them. Reward with the command stay and a treat every 15 seconds or so at first. the stretch it to every minute. The idea is your dog should "stay" until you release. Doesn't matter if they don't stay the whole 30 minutes. What matter is they stay until YOU release. We are doing the exercise right now as we "speak". The three year old is staying just fine. The one year old is a jumping bean! Good Luck. These dogs don't get their brains until about three....Although I think they understand everything. |
| Obedience training advice is sound as long as dog is sound. Though I'd be inclined to put my money on that not being the case given the licking and protectiveness of body. Hopefully if they can make the pain go away, so will the growling and such.
Like Kerry I don't subscribe to alpha dog theories so I don't get how 30 minute downs accomplish anything but, presumably, nice down stays  , but different strokes. Just be super careful they rule out any pain first before they get physical in any way or things could escalate.
Kristine |
| Patch licks the carpet leaving white spots - I did not put new carpet in the office where her bed is. I try to derail her from the licking when I catch her, but she has managed to leave about 10 white spots. In a few years I'll have a pure white carpet when all the spots blend. |
| I totally agree that they get their brains when they are three! Mine is 3.5 and what a difference she has been in the last six months. Still the same sweet girl, but calmer and understands the rules better.
Mine also has allergies and licks and bites herself a lot on her hind quarters. She gets medicated baths every few months and I give her some flax seed oil on her food to help. When it gets really bad, the vet said to give her a benydryl, which does help. She has had a couple of allergy shots over the years, but they didn't seem to help for long so I hated injecting her with chemicals if it wasn't going to help. I would tell your parents to talk to their vet and go from there. My vet has been so helpful with many things. |
I must not have the norm. Chewie always was a calm boy - or at least calm when he needed to be. He always had a brain too  - 1st rally title, intact male, at just under 18 months.
But, he has always done stuff - from his start on equipment when he was just a baby w/ Kristine, and when he came to our house at about 4 months. He always went to class w/ me and out in public w/ myself and other older well trained dogs. He accepted it as the normal way to behave, I guess. Our 1st OES Oliver was more excitable, but still a good guy and easy to train. LeAnne trained him in 4-H in obedience and conformation when she was 13 yrs old
No dominance downs here either. But - the important part is the consistancy part - and a huge believer in the release words for any kind of training. I even use it for weight pulls, herding, sledding, not just obedience and conformation. |
| Just to clarify my remark about the long downs...I don't mean the old "alpha roll" as they once called it where you hold the dog down on its back. I just tell them to down and stay until I release.If they get up, I quietly walk over and place them back down and remind them to stay again. No holding down or restraining them on their backs. Just the command. I find it calms them and reminds them they need to "calm down" when I say so.
I'm not big on the alpha stuff either and in fact feel with some dogs those methods actually hurt the relationship between human and dog. |
| Our trainer advised us to do these downs too, in the same way. I've noticed (after the 1st time!) that Ru is much more mindful about what he does. Instead of running about, pushing me as he goes, it's more like he thinks 'Is it OK to be running in the house' or 'Is it OK to run at the window when the postman comes' little things like that, as if he is looking at me asking for permission. It's stopped him from being so pushy, and that's the only training we have done so far, he starts obedience this week. I think it's about getting the dog to listen & be a little more mindful.
I don't know about the biting- Ru has growled & snapped at me when I've been lifting him & I asked the trainer about it. He said you should be able to handle a dog in any way without it biting. I guess that's a fit & healthy dog. Ru would definitely bite me if I tried to lift him from the down position. |
Ashley wrote: Just to clarify my remark about the long downs...I don't mean the old "alpha roll" as they once called it where you hold the dog down on its back. I just tell them to down and stay until I release.If they get up, I quietly walk over and place them back down and remind them to stay again. No holding down or restraining them on their backs. Just the command. I find it calms them and reminds them they need to "calm down" when I say so.
I'm not big on the alpha stuff either and in fact feel with some dogs those methods actually hurt the relationship between human and dog. I love down stays. I used them with Morgan to get over his obsession that he has to eat mor e- a down stay in the LR while we ate (in front of the TV) convinced him he didn't have it so bad in the kitchen with an empty dish (he was feed first but he seems to want to eat till he bursts); ewhen the dogs "have words" they go into a down stay - whomever is invioolved and I play with the uninvolved. On the plus side = both Marleya dn Morgan can stay in a down while the other one is working in our joint private lessons  and when I did a drop in in obedience class in FL - Morgan had the most perfected down stay in the group - my sister had some wisecrack about it being his favorite exercise for obvious reasons
But a dog that growls at a touch is most likely in pain rom something and needs to see a vet or a vet specialist. Now growling at peo0ple, our Irish setter has always doen that - he also sighs, moand and groans. he is without a doubt the most vocal dog I have ever had. SO a growl in and of itself - to me not a big deal. Cedric growls when asked to get off the bed - and then he gets off, he just want sme to know he doesn't want to You really have to know the dog. |
| Kerry my dalmo sounds a lot like your setter.
He has to comment on everything. He grumbles, groans, moans and whines constantly. When my obedience instructor was over for a meal recently she was horrified because when I put him in a down stay while we ate he had a grumble about it. I said are you kidding if he got in trouble for the running commentary we'd never get anywhere. Rast is the second dalmo I've owned and the other was exactly the same. |
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