What would you do (agility related)?
It was Inca's agility class last night - she really loves it, and we really enjoy taking her too - but I left feeling like I didn't want to go back anymore. Hoping some of you may have some ideas of what we can do. We've been taking this class for about 6 months and the other dogs in the class are a mixed bag of breeds - one being a terrier that joined about 2 months ago. He's only about 1 year old, and has always been pretty disruptive in the class (mainly running off and not coming back when called which lasts some minutes while he does laps of the room, dodging his owner and anyone else who tries to catch him). Over the past few weeks he's taken quite a dislike to Inca, and comes at her barking, growling, and snapping at her. She has never ever stood up for herself to any dog (and I'm of the opinion that she shouldn't really have to - although sometimes it would be useful) and consequently is now terrified when he starts to act this way. Last week, 2 minutes into the class, Inca was going over the top of the A Frame, the terrier came over growling, barking, and jumping at the side of the A Frame, which scared Inca and she moved to the side and ended up falling right off the top of the A Frame  . I was pretty upset to say the least, but the owner was very apologetic and we tried to get on with the class. The terrier came up and did this quite a few more times, and Inca would just stop still while coming down the A Frame and not move until the owner retrieved her dog. Even later when practising weaves Inca would not work them because he was close by barking - its crazy, she's 5 times bigger than him, but she's really scared.
Anyway, this week was just insane. As soon as the class started, we were working contacts again, this time the dog walk. She gets to the middle of the dog walk and the terrier comes over barking and growling, so Inca stands and doesn't move. Owner gets her dog. We get to the end of the dog walk, where we usually stay on the contact for several minutes. While waiting on contact the terrier gets at Inca, really lunging and growling - so obviously Inca won't stay on the contact (who would expect her to?) - this happened another 4-5 times, to the extent Inca would not walk over the dog walk if she could see him across the other side of the room, and even going the opposite direction she would stop at the top, look around to make sure it was safe to go down, and just would not wait at the end. She was just freaked out. So, less than 10 minutes into the class I'd had enough and just walked out. Luckily (?), my partner is much calmer than me (I can't tell you how angry/upset I was, even typing it now is making my heart race  ) and when I left with Inca, he went to speak to the owner of the terrier - to ask if she would be able to keep him on the lead, since Inca was now very scared and we couldn't work in the class. Really I think this was the responsibility of the instructor to do, its his class, and we pay him to train us. He didn't intervene at any point (too busy working with some BCs new to the class) and it wasn't as if you could have missed it.
The owner of the terrier is adamant that her dog is not aggressive, and whilst I don't think he would bite his behaviour is certainly not playful (Inca is THE most playful dog on the planet and she would be raring to go play, not cowering and refusing to move). I was determined that we were going straight home, but my partner convinced me to go back in after he talked to the terrier's owner, so reluctantly I did. When we got back, the trainer still didn't ask us if Inca/we were ok, but went up to the terrier's owner to ask if they were ok  to which she said to him 'they've told me I have to keep him on his lead but I just can't work with him on the lead' - I just couldn't believe she could be complaining that we want her to keep her dog on the lead. I would be absolutely mortified if Inca bullied another dog in that way, even if it happened once - nevermind time and time again, where Inca is visibly petrified. To make things more unbelievable, we always work Inca on her lead (unless doing jump work) - so the whole time her off lead dog is harassing us Inca is on lead - and we do this because she occasionally (very occasionally) gets excited and wants to play with the other dogs. Which disrupts them. She's never aggressive towards them, but I don't like her disrupting other people. It was VERY tough for us to keep her under control on lead when we first went to class (being 33kg and dragging us over every obstacle) but in time she learned not to drag us, and we have much more control over her because of that.
I think the trainer finally figured out I wasn't happy, and he came over to ask if Inca was ok. I told him no, she was scared of the terrier which made it impossible for us to work her (or even worse - give her reason to be scared of obstacles that he was harassing her on) - but that she was ok when he wasn't lunging at her. I explained Inca has never liked conflict, and would not stand up for herself. The trainer suggested two things, we move class (why we have to move class and disrupt our schedule when it isn't Inca's fault I don't know) or we could muzzle the terrier. Muzzling will not help - he will still bark, growl, and lunge at her with a muzzle, and she will still be freaked out. I seriously don't know why keeping him on lead is such an issue. Am I being unreasonable? Anyway, apologies for the very long post - it’s just something that's really upset me and I really don't want to go back to class now  .
Would appreciate any suggestions on how you would deal with the issue? |
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| Is this normal for how your class is run - to have multiple dogs working simultaneously off lead? Or normal for classes in the UK?
It's not with our classes. It sounds like we are at a similar point in training as Inca. I am the least experienced in our class - most others are competing or are training a 2-3rd, etc dog for competition. We all work individually on the floor - we each have the entire course to ourselves while working. Our instructors have us crate or securely restrain our dogs when another is working. We are all watching each dog work - it is part of our class to watch and learn and discuss good and bad things happening as they run the course. Also, the instructor is giving total focus on the ONE dog and ONE handler to give them feedback. Mostly it is the handler getting critiqued, as we are the common problem when things don't go right for us as a team. 
So - if it where I , I wouldn't go back. How can your dog learn and have fun while it is constantly getting harrassed?
If this is the normal, accepted class structure (ie: all dogs are worked with others loose), then I would try a different mix - have yourself or the other team moved to a different class. If they won't work with you I would leave - they aren't a place you should be training and spending your money on. |
| Thanks for the quick reply - I know you're right - we really should give that class up, that was my overiding feeling but I didn't know if I was being entirely rational. I will look into alternatives - but before now we have really loved going and have come a long way. Though after yesterdays experience I have lost a bit of faith in the trainer .
We have been to one other class before this one (only for a couple of months because the trainer wasn't very good and we were not learning anything) but the other class worked in the same way, with all dogs (or most) off lead working different obstacles and then rotating. I just assumed this was the norm. In the current class we do this for about 30-40 minutes, and then each have 1 or 2 runs of the full course without any other dogs in the area. All of the other dogs are very well behaved, with barely any interaction between the dogs - which is why we keep Inca on lead since we're not 100% sure she won't try and play with someone else's dog. We won't be attending the class next week anyway, because the trainer booked us in to go and get Inca measured (for if/when we want to compete) and that is at the same time as the class. But we're already paid up for another couple of weeks after, so I guess we need to figure out if we'll go back then  . |
| I may be wrong but I think that there was an eariler post about how someones sheepie got excited and that trainer insisted that he go back to his crate to "relax" and not disrupt the other dogs. I agree with the idea of not going back if the terrier is not crated. I am surprized that the others in the class tolerate the noise and poor control of the terrier.
I don't do agility but have been thinking about it. I was under the impression that basic obedience and being able to recall your dog was essential. It does not seem that the terrrier is under control. Those a-frames seem pretty high and a fall from that had to have hurt and it is no wonder Inca is scared. I would be too. If they won't crate the dog, shouldn't they move their class since they are the ones causing the trouble  Are there any other trainers in the area?? Training is supposed to be fun and enjoyable for everyone and that does not seem to be the case. |
| Yeah I was under the impression that basic obedience/recall were essential too - but either there are no restrictions on this class or they just aren't implemented very closely (I forget if they asked us anything like that when we orginally signed up). The terrier is most definitely out of control - even when he has his turn individually he will not recall, and the owner has to chase him around and try to grab him to get him out of the ring. Everyone is very tolerant of him - and I do commend his owner for trying to channel his energies into something productive, but when it's at the expense of Inca's training/enjoyment I find it increasingly more difficult to be tolerant
Unfortunately for us, I don't think there are any other classes close by (this one is 30 minutes drive) but unless the trainer asks the terrier to change to a different day/time, it looks like I will have to investigate alternatives further afield (really feel strongly we shouldn't have to switch, but that could just be my stubborn streak  ). The really disappointing thing is I really like the methods the trainer uses and the facilities are really good too - plus we've made some friends in that class - but it just isn't going to be worthwhile if every week is like this week. |
Inca's Human wrote: Yeah I was under the impression that basic obedience/recall were essential too - but either there are no restrictions on this class or they just aren't implemented very closely (I forget if they asked us anything like that when we orginally signed up). The terrier is most definitely out of control - even when he has his turn individually he will not recall, and the owner has to chase him around and try to grab him to get him out of the ring. Everyone is very tolerant of him - and I do commend his owner for trying to channel his energies into something productive, but when it's at the expense of Inca's training/enjoyment I find it increasingly more difficult to be tolerant
Unfortunately for us, I don't think there are any other classes close by (this one is 30 minutes drive) but unless the trainer asks the terrier to change to a different day/time, it looks like I will have to investigate alternatives further afield (really feel strongly we shouldn't have to switch, but that could just be my stubborn streak ). The really disappointing thing is I really like the methods the trainer uses and the facilities are really good too - plus we've made some friends in that class - but it just isn't going to be worthwhile if every week is like this week.It sounds like besides the troubles with this particular dog you like the class and indeed have made good progress. I really hope something can be worked out. Hopefully it is the terrier owner who has to do the modification, not you. The trainer has to be (we hope!) concerned about out of control behaviors, especially when it causes dogs to fall off contact equipment! geez! (see , it is getting me upset too, and I'm an ocean and half a large continent away.... ) |
| Dawn, the beginners & advanced beginners classes are often taught the way Inca's Human (did I miss your name? If so, so sorry ) describes. If you had been doing obstacle foundation work in all likelihood there would be at least some rotation or some occasions where you'd have 2-3 dogs working at once.
Even in our most advanced classes, the bigger classes are often split in two with one instructor teaching half the class at one end of the building and one at the other. It's great for distraction training, but the dog has to be at a certain level of reliable voice control by the time they get moved up to such a class. Any dog who is consistently not under control to the point of interfering with other dogs or significantly disruptive and where the situation can't be remedied in short order will quickly find itself moved to a less advanced class, maybe even a referal to a bsaic obedience class for remedial work, before allowed to rejoin any agility class, which is what should be happening with this terrier. Are they friends of the instructor's or something?
I can sympathize. It's been many years now, and Mad was more advanced than Inca is currently so we were actually running courses, but there was some mutt in one class who adored charging other dogs. He'd quickly figure out who didn't appreciate it and figured out that Mad was one of them, at which point he'd do a short sequence, then deliberately leave the handler to buzz her. I was so angry I wanted to pick the damn dog up and drop kick him into the next county, but I refrained since I knew it was his idiotic owner's fault. (It amused her ).
The instructor didn't do much about it. The final straw was when the owner let him go while we were working and he charged Mad on the dog walk and she fell off. I made such a damn fuss they had no choice but to remove the wretched critter from class and her dog too.
The fear of obstacles will go away once the dog does. The sooner the better so as to not cement it in any way in her mind. No dog should be expected to have to work under those circumstances and you shouldn't be penalized for the other owner's lack of consideration. Hopefully the owner is miffed enough to maintain control of the dog by next class. Failing that if it happened again and he came anywhere near my dog I'd be set to intervene, risk the bite, pick the wretched dog up by his scruff and hand deliver him back to his owner that way. And I'd keep doing it till she started getting the point that he is not to come anywhere NEAR your dog. If it's just a charge I'd charge HIM and chase him back to his owner in the angriest, most psychotic way I know how. Inca has to believe that you are able to keep her safe to be able to free her mind and body to focus on the task at hand. He's a bully. Bullies are just blustery cowards. Call his miserable little bluff. Owner will probably be terribly enraged but what have you got to lose at this point?
Kristine |
| Yes, our 1st levels of classes are multiple dogs and a couple trainers. I was assuming Inca was further along.
I know where we train it wouldn't happen - More minor cases than that have happened and the negligent owner has gotten talked to. In fact I think they make too sterile of an environment - but that's a whole nother discussion.... They do have very little tolerance for obvious lack of control. They all train and compete and several judge in obedience, so it is pretty ingrained in their philosophy, for better or worse. The fact that the trainers were letting the behavior slide really got to me. And beyond the obvious reasons to not have it happen, I can't believe in this economy that any school/training center can afford to get students so upset that they quit and look elsewhere to spend their $$$ for any kind of classes. |
| I sympathise with you, as everyone has already said you shouldnt have to put up with that.
I was shocked that the trainer didnt intervene and more shocked that he spoke to the other owner first. I work Tiggy on lead as she is the horror head who wants to chase other dogs. She knows who is happy to be chased and who is scared of her, so I just cant let her off lead as its not fair on others in the class. Tiggy has a great recall in obedience but as soon as she sees dogs running, the recall goes out the window. So maybe the terrier has basic obedience and a recall just not in that situation. When Tiggy chases, she doesnt growl but she will bark, I have been so embarrassed and immediately take her away. Its reinforcing the horrible behaviour if I let her get away with it. Tiggy barks loudly when she hears and sees dogs running through the tunnel so I take her away for that too. I would be too embarrassed to come back to class if she ever caused a dog to fall off equipment.
Perhaps the trainer really did miss all of what was going on. Maybe a phone call and chat about the situation outside of class time would help?
Kristine can we see a video of you at your psychotic angry chasing best? Pleeeeease, awww go on, it really would be a kindness to anyone who needs a chuckle. |
| Dawn - We really did think it was a good class before all this - which makes it all the more disappointing. Falling off the A Frame was just awful (mostly just for me - Inca really didn't care about the falling, we did a lot of landscaping when she was a puppy so she's used to falling up/down holes/hills and just bounces back ). But it could have caused some damage to her (not to mention vet bills) - but the terrier's owner was really upset and apologetic so it kept my emotions in check at the time (only just )
Kristine - Thanks for the advice. I really don't understand why the instructor doesn't step in - pretty sure he doesn't know the terrier/owner - and it seems to be getting worse week by week. I wondered if me intervening and standing up to the dog on Inca's behalf would work - the last couple of times I was really fed up and did try and grab him, but he's really fast and just circles round her and lunges from all sides. He did seem a bit shocked when I went to grab him (I might have said a few angry words too ), so thinking that will be my tactic next time if she persists on not controlling her dog. Like you say, nothing to lose!!
Also, you didn't miss my name, I didn't add it to the post (really must sort my signature out, when I figure out how!) Inca's Human (aka Nicola) |
| Mim - I'm glad I'm not over reacting or alone in my frustrations! We are so careful to keep Inca out of anyone's way - and I would be so so embarassed if she put another dog in danger.
I guess it is possible (if not highly unlikely) that the trainer missed it all, but he didn't miss the previous week when she fell off the a frame. He did come over right away and see she was ok - but he didn't say anything to the terrier's owner either Maybe a chat outside of class would be a good idea.. thanks for the suggestion..
Inca's Human (aka Nicola) |
| oh I would be angry as well. In fact been there (almost ) done that. there was a little beagle in our drop in class a few weeks ago and the clueless owner was bored so got up to run him across the dog walk while Marley was working a sequence. Unlike Kristine, our classes are not run that way - one instructor, one dog on the equipment at a time. Hey its New York and I assume its for insurance reasons Both the intructor and I yelled at the same time that it wasn't a good idea and she took her seat.
I won't go back to that class- but mostly becausei ts a bad fit for us - we are the most advanced team in the class and honestly there isn't much for us to learn watching the other teams. The most inportant thing is to find and instructor you can trust and learn something from. There are so many rip off agility classes in the states, it sometimes takes a while to find a good class - well a good instructor. If your partner feels thye are getting a good basis in agility that answers their needs, then one of you should talk to them about the issue nd find out what they plan on doing to help you train your dog to get over the fear - and depending on your dog they might blame the equipement or the other dog. Luckily you don't run he rso she might not pick up on your fear. My dogs have fallen off all of the equipment during their training and they get over it if you do. But this might also be the cue you need to look for another class or trainer. |
| Oh this has me riled.
Is there someone higher up that you can talk to? That snarly little terror should be KEPT ON LEASH AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!! If there is no one higher up that you can talk to, then I would go to the trainer and read him the riot act. This is so totally unacceptable. Next I would do as Kristine and pick the little terrorist up by the scruff and deliver it to its owner. Or do the psychotic thing and charge the terror as its charging your dog. Step on its little feet and bark right back at it
I'm really sorry you are going through this. I would really, really, do the above and talk(yell) at the trainer. TOTALLY, TOTALLY, TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!!!!! Pls let us know what happens. If I have to I will come and kick some butt. |
Simon's Mom wrote: Pls let us know what happens. If I have to I will come and kick some butt.
And the headline reads: "Psychotic American OES Agility Handlers Charter Flight to Downunder to Terrorize Abrasive Terrier" We'll pick up Mim along the way. Mim, just bring your video camera
Kristine |
| ^^^^^^^^^
Bwahahaha! And they say that pushy parents at kids sporting events are bad. Me thinks they may have nothing on pushy parents at furkids sporting events. |
| thanks for giving me a laugh about this!!
I'm certainly going to put my good manners aside next time and deal with the little terrier myself (and the owner if necessary!) - and if the trainer doesn't step up and help us then we will just have to leave the class and find somewhere more controlled (does seem like an odd way to run a business, and I have no idea who would be liable if Inca was injured).
So pleased to have this forum and great, supportive advice!! Will keep you posted on the outcome Inca's Human (aka Nicola) |
| Nicola,
The little terrorist does need to be dealt with...but its the owners fault. The owner should be dealt with first. Yes, put your good manners and tell this person that she MUST keep this dog under control AT ALL TIMES!!!! It seems so unfair that you would have to look for somewhere else to go. |
Mad Dog wrote: Simon's Mom wrote: Pls let us know what happens. If I have to I will come and kick some butt. And the headline reads: "Psychotic American OES Agility Handlers Charter Flight to Downunder to Terrorize Abrasive Terrier" We'll pick up Mim along the way. Mim, just bring your video camera Kristine Taking up a collection to fly us over there. Just send the money to me |
| Come now. Does the TPOESWDC (Total Performance OES World Domination Committee) have a slush fund in the event of just such incidents?
Kristine  |
Mad Dog wrote: Come now. Does the TPOESWDC (Total Performance OES World Domination Committee) have a slush fund in the event of just such incidents?
Kristine If not, it should  |
got sheep wrote: Mad Dog wrote: Come now. Does the TPOESWDC (Total Performance OES World Domination Committee) have a slush fund in the event of just such incidents? Kristine If not, it should I agree. Sort of a performance rescue fund. No, no wait the "Performance Police Dept" (PPD)
Or the Performance Bully Busters. We need someone to draw up the symbol the red circle with a slash through it and a bully dog popping through instead of a ghost. Kerry whose doing the artwork? Tell them there's a second brief. |
Just wanted to update this thread. We had our agility class last night, and the terrier remained on his lead throughout - so we did actually manage to do some training 
Right at the start of the class the trainer asked if we could bring the two dogs together to say 'hello' because the terrier had apparently behaved a lot better the previous week when we weren't there (probably because he didn't have Inca to torment ) Anyway, as soon as we got near Inca cowered down, and the terrier barked at her and she was visibly scared (they were both on lead). I didn't see the point in the exercise, because she was just scared, and although I agree the terrier has to learn how to behave around dogs, I'm not prepared for Inca to be his training dummy. I said as much to the trainer, and he agreed, and he pretty much directed us to equipment at different ends of the room.
Inca did really well, and was totally focussed (for a change) so I was really pleased with her, especially as there ended up being a lot of dogs in class. So far so good  (but I'll keep the TPOESWDC/PPD on speed dial just in case!! ) |
| Good news!!! |
Inca's Human wrote: Anyway, as soon as we got near Inca cowered down, and the terrier barked at her and she was visibly scared (they were both on lead). I didn't see the point in the exercise, because she was just scared, and although I agree the terrier has to learn how to behave around dogs, I'm not prepared for Inca to be his training dummy. I said as much to the trainer, and he agreed, and he pretty much directed us to equipment at different ends of the room.
Glad to hear it went better. You might have missed a great training opportunity with Inca though - there are ways you can teach her not to be afraid of the little barking dog and show her you will protect her to give her some confidence. I have noticed since I have stepped up the interference between other ill behaved dogs and my girl she has relaxed more around all other dogs. Of course I probably offended many people - but what the heck
I did feel bad for a guy with a well behaved rottie this weekend - I saw him coming with the dog at the end of the lead and automatically stepped in front of Miss Marley so she would just walk past him. The poor guy probably thought I thought his dog (or mine) would attack and he made a large detour around us - I just didn't want the eyeless sheep dog to scare the rottie so he would stare and scare Marley (not that she could have seen him with her head coat down). Oh well |
| In hindsight, we probably did miss a good training opportunity as you say, Kerry. Wasn't really thinking of that at the time - though the trainer in class did advise us to stand in front of Inca, as you described, if it happened again. It would be nice for her not to be scared - its a weird situation because when she was a puppy she had no concept whatsoever if a dog wasn't being friendly, she would just totally ignore them - but about a year ago a German Shepherd tried to attack her, and she's been more wary since (only of the unfriendly ones, luckily, she still loves most dogs/people/things that move/things that don't move - you get the picture )
Thanks for the advice, will definitely try it in the future |
Inca's Human wrote: So far so good
(but I'll keep the TPOESWDC/PPD on speed dial just in case!! )That is good news! But we're here if you ever need us 
Kristine |
| Have video camera etc packed and ready to leave at a moments notice. I still want to see Kristine do her thing.
Glad things went better for Inca. |
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