A question about leads
I want to get a good start on this! Thanks! Kerry |
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| head halters can cause cervical damage if your dog is jerked - or jerks (very likely with an OES).
We went through all the collars and harnesses etc until we found a good trainer who taught us how to properly fit and use the prong to traint he dogs not to pull. now I use whatever is at hand unless I am training becasue my dogs don't pull. |
Many of us on the board have the head leads and would totally recommend it ...and can say with 100% certainty that no xray would show any damage to them.  Doing a search on types of leashes used, etc on this forum ...you'll see it's a popular choice here. So, that's what I always love to use and just buy different sizes as they grow! Although I always use a normal collar and leash unless there are signs something more restraining is needed. |
Joahaeyo wrote: Many of us on the board have the head leads and would totally recommend it ...and can say with 100% certainty that no xray would show any damage to them.
.Actually, without having done x-rays over time, you can't. My chiropractic vet hates them and read me the riot act when he discovered I'd used one on Mad when she was a youngster and thought she was directly related to a Mexican jumping bean. He has the fun job of putting the dogs' necks back in position, but what does he know?  
Mind you, they probably work just fine for some dogs. Mainly the ones that don't really need them 
If I had a dog who needed that kind of power steering I'd use a pinch collar. I usually train them in a regular buckle collar and that works just fine but a lot of puppies go through a stage where you need more control and at that point a pinch can be a blessing. If you're uncomfortable with a pinch there are some nice walking harnesses out there. I know one of the breeder's of Kerry's bitch showed me a really nice one she uses on her male when we were at an agility fun match. I've never used a harness, well, except for skikjoring, so I don't have experience with them. But that is an option as well. Kristine |
| As you probably realize there is a difference of opinion on the Forum on this topic. Some folks are adamently against the use of a head leader. Others are fully in favor. The choice will be yours and what works best for you and your pup. If I can add my 2 cents here, when Bailee was 2 to 3 months old we had a trainer come to the house and her rather strong" opinion was at that young age to never use ANY collar of any kind until at least six months of age. With the pup being so young a collar may cause serious damage to it's throat. She "directed" us to use only a harness, which we did until Bailee grew and grew and grew and became rather strong. We took him to Obedience Training and the trainer wanted everyone to use the Gentle Leader. At the time Bailee was pulling quite a bit and the Gentle Leader made a world of difference. One thing to add here is that the concern over jerking the head can be minimized by NOT JERKING ON THE LEAD. With Bailee all it took was a "gentle" tug and he responded quite well. He has now been off the Gentle Leader for about 4 months and actually he has started to pull a little more lately. I plan to take the "Gentle Leader" along with me and put it on him when he starts to pull in the hope that he will realize that he would be much happier if he didn't pull. He wasn't exactly estatic to put the "G.L" on and I hope his memory is good. |
| As mentioned, there are a lot of injuries with a normal collar/leash and if it's a small dog... they don't even recommend ever using one (just a harness or a lead), so I guess I don't see the reason to stay clear of them when just using that as an argument. Totally understand when someone is saying that it doesn't train your dog to walk better though, but... not everyone cares.
I have 2 very strong pullers, and I totally am again... in total confidence that there is no and will never be any injury to them as a result of me using one. When they're at their wildest and the bestest treat in the world is ahead... their strongest tug couldn't cause any injury since the tiniest tug pulls them back my way. My collar and leash caused them 100x more likelihood to at the very least ...be sore and hurt. It does cause one of my dogs discomfort [itchy], but low riders cause me discomfort and I won't stop wearing them if it supports the ultimate purpose to make my butt look hot. In the end, we both forget we have it on when we've had them on long enough. |
I have be alternating between a regular chain style collar versus a prong type collar when training and jogging. The chain style seems to be getting caught in the hair and not sliding to a loose position for when she needs no correction.  Does anyone else have that problem and should I stay away from that type of collar??? I don't want Bella to pull and have switched to the prong collar which is good at stopping her from pulling but I think she hardly notices it much with all her hair.  it must do something though since she stays right by my side with is on. Should I feel bad that I have to resort to the prong or does others use this type of collar |
| From experience, she is correcting herself with the prong collar & doing it more evenly than a regular slip choke. The slightest pull on a prong collar results in a correction. The choke collar generally gives more pressure in just 1 area. Not all dogs need a prong collar but for the ones that do, it is by far the most humane way to get them to quit pulling. Been there & done that with one of my 1st show dogs so I have 1st hand experience at it. |
| I am sure Mrs J has better scientific proof - but a study of Prong Collars in Germany (Information about study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar) found: 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong. The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed. Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma. Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma. If your collar gets caught try using a snood under it to keep the fur out of the collar. |
Mad Dog wrote: Mind you, they probably work just fine for some dogs. Mainly the ones that don't really need them LOL. That's absolutely true. I just use those British slip leads on all my dogs. They don't wear collars so it's easier just to toss those over their necks and go. No one pulls on walks so it's not a training tool for me, it's a laziness tool. http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cfm/a/ ... Slip_Leads |
Mad Dog wrote: I know one of the breeder's of Kerry's bitch showed me a really nice one she uses on her male when we were at an agility fun match. I've never used a harness, well, except for skikjoring, so I don't have experience with them. But that is an option as well.
Kristine And since this is Marley's uncle and he is a well trialed agility dog (meaning he has to pay attention to his handler) and he still needs a halter to walk comfortabley - it tells me they don't really train a dog to do anything. |
| Hey I'll wade in too!
I'm a chiropractor and in total agreement with Kristine's chiro. I would not use any sort of head collar on Tiggy. She is a perfect angel heeling until she sees another dog or cat that she fancies and then she's off like a rocket. She has nearly taken me off my feet if I havent seen the other critter when she has and so am not ready. Injuries due to collars will mostly be soft tissue and functional (the way the joints and muscles move together) and will take anywhere from 5 to 10 years to show up on an Xray. Mrs J is right there have been documented injuries with correction chains but the back and front neck muscles are much stronger than the muscles that stabilise the side of neck so a pull on the front of the neck is less likely to cause injury than a sideways pull. A wide flat collar is ideal but as mentioned gives a lolt less control |
| I'm with Jill. I use the British slip leads as well to train my puppies. Actually, I also use them on some of my show dogs. They are very lightweight for the puppies and I find they work very well. |
Blueshire wrote: I'm with Jill. I use the British slip leads as well to train my puppies. Actually, I also use them on some of my show dogs. They are very lightweight for the puppies and I find they work very well.
I use them for my trained adults and they are fabulous leads (I think those of us who grow showcoat are probably drawn to them 'cause our dogs don't normally wear collars.) but a caution with a naughty puppy/youngster: they don't release, so you have to use them with care with a dog who is inclined to pull. I still use them on rescue dogs (fosters) when I first get them even if they pull because I've had dogs almost slip out of their (poorly fitted) collars minutes after they were handed to me, and, one of my great nightmares, Pam's Garfunkle's (nee Bear) lead literally broke as I was taking him into the house for the first time.   I now never meet a new dog without one of those slip leads. The thicker ones are better for pullers and show coat, the thin ones are fine for trained dogs. I never train using them since any dog who can comfortably wear one can be trained off lead for my purposes, but so worth having on hand for so many reasons.
Kristine |
| I'll jump in as well. As a dog person for life and a trainer for over 20 yrs, and an orhtopedic nurse for over 20 yrs and trauma certified nurse I can NOT endorse a gentle leader/halti at all.
I agree it gives a person control. You would be well behaved in one too. 
You wouldn't jump, pull or try and drag anyone. It is a crutch, pure and simple. The dog is not learning to behave and not pull, they simply lose the ability temporarily while the device is on them. Beyond the fact you aren't actually training your dog or developing any relationship with them regarding working together as a team, you can do damage. As Jo said - her dogs are used to them and don't pull. They already learned what happened if they tried. It jerked there head and neck at a harmful angle and they couldn't win. Some dogs are more stubborn and keep trying, causing repeated cervical trauma. And what happens if YOU trip or accidentally pull on it?? - you caused your dog pain and unneccessary potential injury. They also press on accupressure points across the dogs muzzle and really isn't the best idea to do this with everyday use. And it is well proven the the leaders don't actually train your dog. Most people who use them use the leader as the control device and don't simultaneously actually work on educating the dog. Most dogs who are walked on a leader NEVER learn to walk well without pulling without one. There is no teamwork, no respect. Just a dog that learned the hard way that a leader makes them not pull, because they hurt themselves if they do. |
| You keep saying hurt, and I just respectfully disagree. I've never seen a dog hurt even if I yank on my leash with it on. ...and I mean yank like hell on it b/c I'm pissed they ain't listening too.
I'm actually totally confused to where the pain comes in. The tiniest pull and the dog is facing you so further pulling or a longer yank does nothing but bring them toward you ... the direction they are already facing. I think the OP just needs to go to a store (petco/petsmart) and have someone there show you the different options and how to correctly put them on. Then you can easily see for yourself which devices you feel comfortable with and which ones may hurt your dog. Again, I've never heard of a dog even getting hurt or even a tiny bit of pain with a gentle leader on. I HAVE seen and heard of many dogs getting hurt with a normal collar on and yanked on and with other devices. I have tried a choke collar and with training... it works but if you're looking for something that works right away (second it's put on) and you have absolutely NO pulling (0%) then put a gl on. You'll have an enjoyable walk and can worry/work on other things (cars coming, the company you're walking with, kids charging your dog, etc)! my 2 cents and what works for us |
Joahaeyo wrote: You keep saying hurt, and I just respectfully disagree. I've never seen a dog hurt even if I yank on my leash with it on. I mean yank like hell b/c I'm pissed they ain't listening too.
I'm not sure whom you're referencing specifically but what Kerry, Mim and I are all referring to if you're talking about the head halter style restraints is not immediate squeeling pain but an often repetitive whiplash effect of sorts with long term potential damage to the dog's neck when you yank like hell - or the dog does it to itself, which is more common - and which, as Mim pointed out, won't show up on x-ray until actual arthritis has set in which doesn't happen immediately. People still use them. The Kerry who asked the question may opt to use one. That's her choice. The other Kerry was simply pointing out the drawback of that particular piece of equipment and why some of us won't use them on our dogs. Kristine |
| I was actually referring to gotsheep's post. |
| You know I know where you are coming from Mrs J - I used GL on my guys under direction of a "trainer" and they appeared to work, but you know I always research everything to death and found out they were inherently dangerous to my dog - sort of like wearing too tight shoes, they may not cause immediate shrieking pain, but you will end up with mishapen feet in the future.
Well when I wewnt back to the flat collar - my dogs knew nothing!!!! NADA, you couldn't get them to walk nicely for nothing, never mind heel. Wasted a lot of money and time on a certified trainer who was only teaching bandaids. Since I don't want to deal with older dogs who have arthritis in their necks or spines I would never use them again. I do however use prong collars and my dogs have on occassion yelped, but I can gurantee you they are not hurt by thse in the sense that they are injured - in fact they are propably only surprised and not hurt at all. BUT - my dogs know how to heel and don't pull when we walk anymore not becasue I am causing them constant discomfort, but rather becasue they have learned what they are supossed to do. It took a little mor etime, but has been so worht it to me. Morgan's most recent ilness - hte abscess was on his neck by his collar and he hasn't been able to wear a collar for a month, but we go to the vets and he goes outside and I have fuill controll of him off leash - he learned something. (and Dan thinks he has no brains  )
Can I be" Kerry, The Original"" ??? |
| Here's one from way out in left field.......................A control harness, meaning, a martingale halter. When I first got Loki he was a very large 87 pound rocket who had never been on a leash before and had no manners to speak of. The first time I tried to walk him with a collar and a leash I was treated to a close-up, face down examination of the sidewalk. I looked around and found a control harness that was completely adjustable AND self releasing every time, so I could gradually adjust the amount of time it took to engage as training progressed and give me the control I needed without hauling the crap out of his face or neck. Maybe I was lucky, but he discovered after one or two escape attempts that he really , REALLY didn't like it when that harness tightened on him and settled down.
Once I had him controlled, I began an intense training of key commands, especially 'Leave it', Wait' and 'Let's go'. Within three weeks I transitioned him back to a flat collar and leash and he's been perfect ever since. He still wants to dance up to the side of cars and herd them, but now I can say 'Leave it' and he knows the game's up. One word of caution (well, two): NEVER attempt to walk the dog with a harness within an hour to two hours of his having eaten unless you want a re-appearance of dinner. This would apply as general principle anyway - Activity too soon after eating invites indigestion and bloat. Second: If your dog continues to haul on the halter after the first week or so, I would suggest backing up and walking him in the backyard away from distractions, training the key commands you want him to know before venturing out in the real world. It's easier on him AND YOU if he has a clear understanding of what you want. No matter what training tool you ultimately decide on, it should be used as a tool, not a solution. It should go hand in hand with training his behavior. Just my two cents.  |
kerry wrote: Can I be" Kerry, The Original"" ???
Why not go for something memorable? I dont know  how about ......
"Kerry the magnificent"? |
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