Need advice: Thinking about bringing an OES into my home
I'm new to this forum and cannot wait to learn more about this breed! I found this forum while searching for information on Old English Sheepdogs and thought I'd post and see what I can learn. I've been looking for information online, but haven't really found any information other than the same redundant information from people who don't really necessarily have any personal experience with the breed. I have been considering bringing an OES into my home, though before I make any decisions I'd love to hear more about characteristics and over all care and maintenance of breed. Currently I have a small dog approx. 7 months old (about 8lbs) with a moderate energy level, but is very hardy and has done well with larger dogs. I take him on 3-4hour walks every other day and 1-2 hour walks on the other days of the week. Due to his coat I am used to regular grooming. Currently I am in an apartment, but after this year if all goes according to plan I will be in a house with a moderate sized yard. I wouldn't plan on bringing one into my home until I was in a house, so probably not for another year. I do have experience with larger breed dogs and plan on doing training and getting into therapy work if the dogs personality fits. I'm a newby to the breed, though plan on doing extensive research before bringing one home. I have found a few reputable breeders that I plan on getting in contact with for more information, but it'd be great to hear from all of you! Celeste |
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| Hi Celeste, welcome to the community!
I'm so happy that you've decided to do your homework before getting a dog! Congratulations on doing the responsible thing. My wife Joan wouldn't let me get a dog while we were apartment dwellers either, although I didn't put up much resistance. But I've come to feel that an apartment is just fine for these Velcro dogs as long as they are exercised a few times per day (as adults). 1/2 hour walks morn and eve at least. I think the lousy good-for-nothing forum admin (me) accidentally lost your registration. Sorry! Please try again at your convenience. |
Welcome from St. Louis!!! You can find a lot of great information on this forum!!! There are many, many topics you can search about puppy and adult puppers and their funny, clownish disposition!!!  |
| Welcome to the forum.
Your 8lb dog can go on 3-4 HOUR walks? Wow, that's impressive. Mine 6lb dog could walk down the street and then she started to drag and ask to be picked up! 
We've had a dog in an apt and currently we're in a house. Really, I don't see the need for a yard outside of convenience when it's potty time. Mine do not spend any time in the backyard unless daddy is out there gardening or we need them to calm down for just a few minutes while someone is at the door (but there are other rooms we use for this to). They rather be inside with us and I spend way too much time on their coats to leave them outside.  |
I am a relative newby to the OES as well but I can tell you that they are great. I have had rescued mixed breeds for years and was glad to find the OES rescue. I still wanted to go the rescue route but it was great to find such a close knit group that looks out for the furry friends they love. 
Bella is 2 and plays like a puppy non stop. She is always happy and bouncy when I get home from work. She gives Dexter (30 lbs) a run for his money when they play. You might want to get input from those more experienced than myself regarding your little 8lb baby. Bella can play a little rough so I always watch close when she is with a little dog. I think you have a good plan about waiting til you have a yard. Bella loves to run all over yard and she goes jogging 2x a day on top of that. It may just be her and her age but she does have energy. They are wonderful dogs and I am so glad that I decided to get one. Welcome to the world of velco and fritto feet!!!!  |
| Welcome! You found the right place to do your research on OES. Best wishes to you! |
Joahaeyo wrote: Welcome to the forum.
Your 8lb dog can go on 3-4 HOUR walks? Wow, that's impressive. Mine 6lb dog could walk down the street and then she started to drag and ask to be picked up! Haha, yeah he has quiet the stamina for a smaller breed dog. Usually he'll take an hour nap after these walks and be up and ready for more! He's also fairly content just laying around for hours, but I think he really gets into travel mode when we go on these walks. I know every dog is different, but what are the predominant OES breed characteristics?? On average how much time is spent with grooming and how often? Also, what is all of your opinions on fostering the breed before actually adopting one? I have been contemplating contacting breed specific rescues and seeing if there is a chance I could foster in order to gain experience and see how the dog fits with my life style, but haven't gotten around to it quite yet. Thanks for all the hellos and responses! Ohh the questions are endless! |
CVan wrote: I have been contemplating contacting breed specific rescues and seeing if there is a chance I could foster in order to gain experience and see how the dog fits with my life style, but haven't gotten around to it quite yet. Thanks for all the hellos and responses!
Ohh the questions are endless! IMHO, I'm not sure fostering would be the best way to determine if the breed fits. Most of my foster's have arrived with issues that would skew the true reality of the breed. Some pull out of thier abandonment issues after some time, others never do. I highly recommend fostering for the sake of fostering. |
| Foster!
I betchya that's how you'll wind up with your first sheepie. You won't wanna let him or her go! I love "failed fosters"
(Joan and I failed at fostering Mulligan after 1 month when we adopted him. Then again it was a foster with a wink and a nod. He is SUCH a sweetie. Thank you NEOSER and Grannie Annie Raker!) |
they are a high maintenance breed - don't let anyone tell you otherwise. But some of that can be handled and eleviated. In full show coat you are going to be grooming 3-5 hours a week AT MINIMUM. that doesn't count baths. In general, they need a lot of exercise - not just walks but things for their very active brains to keep busy on. I said in general because they are all somewhat different and your mileage may vary 
They require someone who is willing to spend on average two to three years in training (mostly handler training ) to end up with a well behaved family pet. However very long walks when they are young is discouraged due to potential skeletal issues.
Actually living in an apartment should not be a deterrent to having OES. Ask Jere about that - she has lots of experience there. They can be mischievious, they can be downright stubborn, but they are wonderful dogs and once you own one you will probably never want to be wothout one. And they make wonderful performance dogs. |
kerry wrote: they are a high maintenance breed - don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Exactly why fostering first is such a great idea! |
Ron wrote: kerry wrote: they are a high maintenance breed - don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Exactly why fostering first is such a great idea!Weeelll. Nice plug for rescue but I'm with Sheepdogma on that one. The ideal foster home, and lord knows we need more of them!!!!! is one that is already familiar with the breed. Unless your heart and soul is dedicated to rescuing some dog and you're willing to put a lot of time and effort into working on behavioral issues and you get your satisfaction that way, it's generally not a good starting point to get to know any breed for what it should be since so many of these dogs come with baggage.
If Dazz was my first and only experience with OES I would currently be researching other breeds. I can live with her because of what my more carefully bred OES have taught me to expect from a sane dog and I remain firmly committed to turning her into such a dog no matter what her genetic baggage (  or maybe just firmly committed <blub, blub, blub - )
Kristine |
| I guess there are pluses and minuses. I'd guess after evaluation by the placement director if s/he feels that a dog might be a good match but isn't quite positive or the adoptive parents aren't quite sure, a foster might be in order.
Sometimes the placement director might think this is a good dog for an inexperienced person to foster, with a hopeful eye towards either a permanent placement or a new foster home.
The placement directors have lots of practice with this sort of thing and the more flexible you are and give him/her more options the better it is for everyone, especially the dogs!  |
| I have to agree with Ron. Those dedicated OES lovers running the rescue really work to get good matches that work best for the sheepies. Bella is a resuce OES and I spoke at lenght to Madeline about her before I got her. She was evaluated in the prior owners home by some experienced with the breed. Other then her being matted her temperment has been great. That said I would always defer to those more experienced. People who run the resuces and do fostering on a regular basis am sure have their share of stories about how the pups were treated etc.
You might see is anyone in your area has a sheepie you could meet and spend some time with. I sure anyone would love to show off their baby
You sound fairly acitive with your dogs so about grooming issues maybe thinking puppy cut all the time would be a better option for you. I take Bella jogging and with all the dirt and rain we run into Puppy Cut is a must for us. I still spend a good hour brushing her once a week so you would need to plan on at least some time for brushing It is nice to spend the time with her relaxing well kind of while I brush her. |
| Thank you for all the input every one!
sheepiegail wrote: You sound fairly acitive with your dogs so about grooming issues maybe thinking puppy cut all the time would be a better option for you. I take Bella jogging and with all the dirt and rain we run into Puppy Cut is a must for us. I still spend a good hour brushing her once a week so you would need to plan on at least some time for brushing
It is nice to spend the time with her relaxing well kind of while I brush her.Yeah, the puppy cut might be the best route to go with me. I currently have a Coton de Tulear that requires about an hour of grooming daily to ensure there are no mats between the pads of the paw, to keep his facial fur clean, and prevent matting all around. I then normally bathe him every two weeks which takes be around 2 hours usually- and keep in mind he's TINY. I keep his hair at full length though. Thanks for the advice- I'll search around for some OES groups in the area and see if I can meet with some owners and meet the dogs. I'll also get in contact with rescues and see what I could with that. Depending on how well I think I can handle things, I might consider having one in an apartment, though I figure if I'm going to be in a house any way within the next year it wouldn't hurt to wait and make sure that this is the breed for me. PS. I can almost guarantee I will become a "failed foster" *sigh* |
| There are far more experienced OES owners on this forum that I am, to be sure.
I will offer these observations from a long-time dog owner (50+ years) who is new to the OES breed and that reference only my OES, Winnie, now 17 months old. 1) They are VERY smart. Thus they need a lot of attention, a lot of exercise and a LOT of mental stimulation. Be prepared to be in training mode all the time. 
2) They herd. As herding dogs they have behaviors that other dogs don't. While other pups may nip, my OES as a young pup nipped to "move us around." For a while, it seemed like an endless behavior. Be patient, as they grow out of it. Don't be surprised if you end up with holes in your favorite slacks and socks.
3) They are goofy and fun. Somehow OES have a sense of humor, a delightful trait none of my other dogs have had! So be prepared to laugh, stifle a laugh, and mostly enjoy their exuberance.
4) They think they own YOU. Very protective even when not very brave. 
5) They do need a pretty fair amount of grooming. If you skip a day there will be mats where there weren't any a few hours before! 6) Be patient, relaxed and the pack leader. They respond, mostly, to the pack leader - or else they will fulfill the role. Most of all, they are loving, wonderful, funny, fun, demanding, and some of the most loyal and rewarding companions you will ever have. Good luck and keep us posted! |
kayc1218 wrote: They do need a pretty fair amount of grooming. If you skip a day there will be mats where there weren't any a few hours before!
The good news is that while they will seemingly mat day to day at certain stages as they're going through various coat transitions as youngsters, once they're adult coats are in matting no longer happens over night. AT 17 mos old, if she's matting all the time, that's probably what's happening with Winnie. It will get better
The good news is that if someone doesn't want to live through coat transition hell they can always shave them down when they hit one of those stages. Also, just as a note, not all are inherently very protective. The more secure/confident the dog, the more discriminating they tend to be about perceived "threats". I.e it should take a very overt threat to make them react. An OES is typically a very outgoing, friendly, socially adept dog when it comes to people, and typically rather rude (overly friendly and very physical in play) when it comes to other dogs as youngsters, though many grow out of this. This is not a breed that should be in any way timid or show any people or dog aggression. In my admittedly very biased opinion an OES with the correct temperament knows no equal in the dog world. They are the most lovable, huggable, trustworthy canine companions your heart could ever desire.
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: kayc1218 wrote: They do need a pretty fair amount of grooming. If you skip a day there will be mats where there weren't any a few hours before! The good news is that while they will seemingly mat day to day at certain stages as they're going through various coat transitions as youngsters, once they're adult coats are in matting no longer happens over night. AT 17 mos old, if she's matting all the time, that's probably what's happening with Winnie. It will get better Kristine Sure it does 
Now we can go a matter of days (like three or four) before she is matted in the most bizarre places (like along her spine or on her withers) so that I KNOW she is doing this just to make me crazy 
But she's worth it  |
Quote: Also, just as a note, not all are inherently very protective. The more secure/confident the dog, the more discriminating they tend to be about perceived "threats". I.e it should take a very overt threat to make them react. An OES is typically a very outgoing, friendly, socially adept dog when it comes to people, and typically rather rude (overly friendly and very physical in play) when it comes to other dogs as youngsters, though many grow out of this.
I should clarify my comment about protectiveness. May have chosen the wrong word. Winnie loves everyone and every dog she meets, sometimes too "rudely" But, especially at night, if she hears or smells something "unusual" or thinks she does, she becomes barky - almost more of a warning bark.
And, when I sneeze - which she thinks is some sort of attack - she will run to me - no matter where she is in the house - and "hug" my leg with her front leg, barking all the time. As though she can"protect" me from the sneeze. (Thankfully she is not doing that AS much as before as I have a lot of allergies! - LOL) |
|
I wasn't thinking Winnie specifically so much as not building an expectation that the breed is (or should be) overly protective. They aren't typically hardwired to be suspicious of every little thing in their environment but rather are discriminating enough to quickly learn what consitutes a real threat and confident enough to stand their ground and meet it head on if need be, but only if need be. Can they be yappy? Sure. Typical herding breed. A few of mine apparently enjoy hearing their own voice. Now, if something goes bump in the night, am I grateful they'll bark? You betcha!
Kristine |
kerry wrote: Now we can go a matter of days (like three or four) before she is matted
in the most bizarre places (like along her spine or on her withers) so that I KNOW she is doing this just to make me crazy Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot to mention that the minute you decide to grow coat to show them they come up with new and creative ways of matting
Kristine |
| They sound like a wonderful breed, though could definitely be some work. I've been looking on the OESCA breeder referral list and there is a whole list for my area (Texas).
What would you say are the most important tests to be ran on the parents? I'd assume an OFA evaluation and PEnnHip, but are there other tests that are a necessity to ensure the health of your puppy? I'd like to go to a show ring and speak to owners of the breed, but I have no idea of how to go about this. Is there a way to find local shows in the area? |
| Not sure if anyone pointed this out yet, as I just skimmed through the posts.. if you are getting a puppy, that much walking is too much during the 1st year- 18months. Large breeds have a high risk of hip dysplacia, I can't remember what the recommended time is, but I think it's about an hour walking a day. Think about what you will do with a sheepie puppy while you are out with your other dog, or how your current dog would react without those long walks.
Welcome to the forum! |
CVan wrote: What would you say are the most important tests to be ran on the parents? I'd assume an OFA evaluation and PEnnHip, but are there other tests that are a necessity to ensure the health of your puppy?
Excellent question! Heath testing that should be done (ideally) according to the Old English Sheepdog Club of America: 1) Hips (& elbows, though the breed does not appear to be particularly prone to elbow dysplasia, some elect to have this done when screening hips) You don't need both PennHip and OFA (they are different ways of looking at the same thing: hips) - just one or the other. I do know a few who have done PennHip who have also done OFA at the same time, but it's not typical nor necessary. 2) Screening of eyesight. Typically you are looking for juvenile/inherited cataracts and PRA, can't think off the top of my head what other vision problems might be typical in the breed, but those are the two biggies. Anyone else have any to add? The testing, in the US, is commonly known as CERF - http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html - results are not publicly listed on this site, but can be found listed on the OFA site: www.offa.org when results are submitted. This is generally where you will find hip and elbow results, as well - unless PennHip was utilized for hips - and breeders can also elect to have other health testing results publicly listed. 3) Thyroid - the breed has one of the highest known frequency rates of hypothypoidism and both parents should be screened for this within the year they were bred, not 3 years ago, as (the same with many eye diseases, so CERF certification should also be relatively recent) it is a disease you have to keep screening for. And not just the in-house T4, but the full panel to check for antibodies. See http://www.offa.org/thyinfo.html 4) BAER testing (hearing) 5) cardiac screening These are the five big ones we can test for. There are other health problems in the breed you should be familar with so you can ask questions about them such as cerebellar ataxia, certain cancers (especially when occurring in younger dogs -predominantly lymphoma, osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma), liver shunts, epilepsy and a host of autuimmune issues ranging from hemolytic anemia and immune mediated thrombocytopenia (see http://www.canismajor.com/dog/autoimmn.html for more general information) as well as allergies, and probably others that escape me at the moment. Though there are to date no specific testing done for these diseases, a breeder should share the rate for which any or all of them may have occurred in a given pedigree if known. (Sharing health information remains a concern in the breed, though I believe we have made some progress) Ours is not a huge gene pool and when information is known it would be next to a miracle for there not to have been SOME health issue seen in any given pedigree. The bigger issue is how much does the breeder know about what risks are involved, how much will they share, and above all, what are they doing to minimize producing affected dogs? THAT's the million dollar question. You can read more about the health concerns in the breed (and what we're doing about them) at www.oeshealth.org and the most recent health survey may give you some specific insight as well: http://www.oeshealth.org/files/OESHealt ... rt2009.pdf You can read more about the breed's health testing requirements (US) at the Canine Health Information Center (CHIC): for general info - http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/ , breed specific: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD We do not yet have a genetic test for cerebellar ataxia (CA) to determine carrier status, though we can determine if a dog is affected, and we do have a voluntary open registry http://www.oescahealthregistry.org/ that lists (known) carrier status. Breeders in North American especially should be using Dr Bell's relative risk (pedigree) analysis before breeding. This is the ideal. Many breeders still only do hips and eyes. I would want thyroid and hearing done as well at a bare minimum, and that includes having had the litter BAER tested (deafness can be determined at a very young age) but that's me. If a breeder hasn't even done basic hips screening but gives you some line about "my dogs are incredibly healthy, testing is not necessary", run for your life in the other direction. Also include questions about temperament. We have some serious temperament problems in the breed, found much less frequently in the show lines, frankly, but still something to pay close attention to. Good for you for doing your homework! Kristine |
| Thank you for the very thorough answer!! I'll check into all of those websites and do some more research on predominant health issues associated with the breed. It's like information overload on this site! I appreciate it.
And in regards to the walking amount in the other post, I honestly haven't put that much thought into that. It's a good thing to bring up though. . . would it be bad to crate the other pup after an hour of walking and feed him/her at that time? I personally don't see an issue with this, but I could be wrong. It would probably be about 2 hours in the crate. I'm sure my current dog could make it on 2 hours of walking in the morning and then a walk in the evening. . . that would cut the kennel time for the new pup to 1 hour to eat and rest. I usually have the long walks in the morning before eating and then a short 30 minute- 1 hour walk in the evening around 5-6 before dinner time. |
| From what I have read about the Coton de Tulear it is in many ways like that of an OES just much smaller.
I have been looking at both breeds how do you like your Coton? Imagine a Coton about 80 lbs with bounce, that is an OES. |
Anonymous wrote: From what I have read about the Coton de Tulear it is in many ways like that of an OES just much smaller.
I have been looking at both breeds how do you like your Coton? Imagine a Coton about 80 lbs with bounce, that is an OES. I absolutely love the breed. Amazing, amazing dogs! They are highly intelligent and love pleasing their people so training is an ease. Biggest things is the grooming. From what I've seen, the breed tends to not have as huge of the "small dog syndrome" issue going on so that's nice as well. Mine is a bundle of energy and super loving- people are always amazed at how great his stamina is on walks/jogs for such a small dog. |
Mad Dog wrote: CVan wrote: What would you say are the most important tests to be ran on the parents? I'd assume an OFA evaluation and PEnnHip, but are there other tests that are a necessity to ensure the health of your puppy? Excellent question! Heath testing that should be done (ideally) according to the Old English Sheepdog Club of America: 1) Hips (& elbows, though the breed does not appear to be particularly prone to elbow dysplasia, some elect to have this done when screening hips) You don't need both PennHip and OFA (they are different ways of looking at the same thing: hips) - just one or the other. I do know a few who have done PennHip who have also done OFA at the same time, but it's not typical nor necessary. 2) Screening of eyesight. Typically you are looking for juvenile/inherited cataracts and PRA, can't think off the top of my head what other vision problems might be typical in the breed, but those are the two biggies. Anyone else have any to add? The testing, in the US, is commonly known as CERF - http://www.vmdb.org/cerf.html - results are not publicly listed on this site, but can be found listed on the OFA site: www.offa.org when results are submitted. This is generally where you will find hip and elbow results, as well - unless PennHip was utilized for hips - and breeders can also elect to have other health testing results publicly listed. 3) Thyroid - the breed has one of the highest known frequency rates of hypothypoidism and both parents should be screened for this within the year they were bred, not 3 years ago, as (the same with many eye diseases, so CERF certification should also be relatively recent) it is a disease you have to keep screening for. And not just the in-house T4, but the full panel to check for antibodies. See http://www.offa.org/thyinfo.html 4) BAER testing (hearing) 5) cardiac screening These are the five big ones we can test for. There are other health problems in the breed you should be familar with so you can ask questions about them such as cerebellar ataxia, certain cancers (especially when occurring in younger dogs -predominantly lymphoma, osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma), liver shunts, epilepsy and a host of autuimmune issues ranging from hemolytic anemia and immune mediated thrombocytopenia (see http://www.canismajor.com/dog/autoimmn.html for more general information) as well as allergies, and probably others that escape me at the moment. Though there are to date no specific testing done for these diseases, a breeder should share the rate for which any or all of them may have occurred in a given pedigree if known. (Sharing health information remains a concern in the breed, though I believe we have made some progress) Ours is not a huge gene pool and when information is known it would be next to a miracle for there not to have been SOME health issue seen in any given pedigree. The bigger issue is how much does the breeder know about what risks are involved, how much will they share, and above all, what are they doing to minimize producing affected dogs? THAT's the million dollar question. You can read more about the health concerns in the breed (and what we're doing about them) at www.oeshealth.org and the most recent health survey may give you some specific insight as well: http://www.oeshealth.org/files/OESHealt ... rt2009.pdf You can read more about the breed's health testing requirements (US) at the Canine Health Information Center (CHIC): for general info - http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/ , breed specific: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=SD We do not yet have a genetic test for cerebellar ataxia (CA) to determine carrier status, though we can determine if a dog is affected, and we do have a voluntary open registry http://www.oescahealthregistry.org/ that lists (known) carrier status. Breeders in North American especially should be using Dr Bell's relative risk (pedigree) analysis before breeding. This is the ideal. Many breeders still only do hips and eyes. I would want thyroid and hearing done as well at a bare minimum, and that includes having had the litter BAER tested (deafness can be determined at a very young age) but that's me. If a breeder hasn't even done basic hips screening but gives you some line about "my dogs are incredibly healthy, testing is not necessary", run for your life in the other direction. Also include questions about temperament. We have some serious temperament problems in the breed, found much less frequently in the show lines, frankly, but still something to pay close attention to. Good for you for doing your homework! Kristine I just wanted to thank you for posting this, I found myself feeling much better about the OES we are getting in March because of this post (and many others filled with great info for new OES owners). Thank you for sharing your knowledge of the breed and what is important to look for in the breeders, blessings to you and yours! |
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