My babies are FIGHTING!!!
Feeding him seemed to set him off and he attacked Ferdinand who had never been attacked or roughed about in his life. We concluded that Felix was really starving, and set about rehabilitating him. He is no longer fearful that he will be starved, because he gets food and plenty of it. He is sweet and gentle, and only complains when I work on the mats he is covered in (and who can blame him for that!!). He is never aggressive with Ferdi anymore, BUT Ferdinand is now aggressive about HIS food and growls whenever anyone comes near, and is especially cranky about Felix being nearby (even in the next room on leash) Not only that, but sometimes out of the blue Ferdinand will just attack Felix with no warning...they can be playing like two bear cubs and suddenly all hell breaks loose. I have to separate them and calm them down with rescue remedy. They fight at least once a day, but are best friends the rest of the time....the fights are really scary. WHY are my babies fighting!!!??? They are the sweetest dogs EVER. They wouldn't hurt a fly MOST of the time. They never hurt the other dogs, or growl at my kids! They are really wonderful...and yet....this sucks. They need to get along...because we are keeping them BOTH. I love them so much...please help me figure out how to make them chill out for the long haul. |
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| My experience with OES in the same home fighting is not extensive but I had/have this problem with my two current males, both rescues. There have been bites and punctures, some serious, but none life threatening. Nonetheless, those fights were very real and pretty scary. My boys are now 6 and 3 and have been together for the last two years. The scraps are now infrequent— by that I mean there has been only one in the last year. My previous OES pairs, and there have been many, have never presented any tendency to fight like these two, so this has been a new experience for me.
Essentially, aggression and fights between dogs of the same sex is usually dominance related. Male-male aggression can also occur without any apparent dominance conflict even with neutered males. Some submissive dogs will never challenge a dominant dog— its not in their personality to try to be on top. But others who are in a usually subordinate position might look for an opening to grab food, or get access to the best place or be first inline for your attention. These are challenges to the dominant dog that he has to try to deal with. Neither dog goes looking for a chance to pick a fight, but my more submissive dog will feel he has a right to protect what he thinks is rightfully his from the other dog. Even though the other dog knows he is dominant he has learned not to push it too far. Toby is one of those generally, but not always, submissive guys. My more dominant dog might give a growl or warning but it was usually the submissive dog that actually precipitated a real fight. Fights used to happen without warning, and might still I suspect... Afterward I realized that there was always some trigger that caused competition and precipitated the fight— tossing a toy when they both thought I was doing it for them and both ran after it; dropping a treat on the floor between them and they both went for it; even playing aggressively with one in the presence of the other. (This latter situation might actually be triggering protective behavior rather than competition—I'm not sure.) These kind of things could occasionally precipitate a fight, until I learned it was my responsibility to avoid situations where they might be forced to compete with the other dog for something. Now I feed them in separate areas. I am careful to give treats directly to each of the dogs, not do something stupid like tossing them. I avoid anything that they cannot eat immediately like a bone. I try to give each dog a little solo attention, like a short walk, without the other dog along. When together I try to let the usually dominant, older male get things first, but otherwise show equal treatment and access to treats and attention. Unlike my earlier pairs who loved to roughhouse, one thing my current pair NEVER does is engage in rough play together. I think they KNOW it could get out of control. And I know it too so I never encourage it with these two. One time there was also competition over a female (Kaylee, a neighbor's dog who comes over constantly) but the only time they got in a fight for her attention, SHE busted it up immediately, scolding both boys by rushing between them and snapping at both. She was actually better at calming them down than I am. Today my two males get along pretty well, even laying and sleeping side by side and hunting, guarding, exploring, and even (to my dismay) howling together. The older dog is still dominant but the potential is always there for some tension to arise so I will always be careful. At 6 months, your boys will probably sort things out but there is a possibility that it could go on for awhile, such as the experience I have had with my current males. If you keep them together, try to be diligent and learn what particular actions or situations trigger conflict—then avoid those situations at all cost, if possible. |
| I am sure more people will give you advice. It is probably like small children arguing, but it would be scarey. Have you got any photos would love to see them...x |
| When the dogs "go at" each other, plz do not jump into the mix. You can get injured accidently. Make a loud noise, yell NO! or whatever you see fit, but plz do not put yourself in the middle. It is better to take the dog to the Vet then you to the hospital.
I went through the fighting with Violet and China years ago. They are now 7/6 yrs old. China usually came out the loser. I learned very quickly to stay in the same room and watch attentivly when they had a treat. The bities used to bring the worst out in Violet. So for a long time I didn't buy them. I also had to feed them in two different rooms os that China would feel relaxed enough to eat. Eventually things have gotten a lot better. It has been years since we've had any problems between China/Violet. We brought another dog into our home about a year and a half ago..Asia..She is a pretty big girl and twice she and Violet got into it. (do you see the common demonminator here? sheesh) Violet was the loser both times and we have not had a fight between any of the girls since. Violet still likes to try and "bait" the other two when they are given a bone. She likes to put hers just a little out of her reach and wait to see if one of the others will try and snatch it. The others are too smart to fall for that trick. Asia will watch Violet until she sees Violet either itching herself or getting bored with the "trap" and will run up and grap it quickly and run off. That is usually after the "trap" had layed out there for a while. All of my girls now eat in the same room. Violet/Asia eat right next to each other. All of this take time, but the best thing to do when food or toys are involved is to keep them seperated. If you leave them alone in the house while you go out, have them in seperate areas. You never know what can happen while you're gone. Good luck...it takes a lot of dilligence and training. |
| Wow I couldn't figure out how babies could be fighting! (sorry)
I raised two puppies 6 weeks apart in age and yes we had - read had as in none in the last 4 months and they are 4 years old- some loud and initially scary fights. I second Helen's advice not to get in t h middle - I managed to inadvertently get in the middle of one and had the scars to prove it. with dogs head wounds as a result of small scraps are really part of the social structure - but we don't have to allow it. My dogs have learned to stop when I give them a command (Usually "what the H?") Okay - how to avoid it. I would separate them when they eat. Resource guarding isn't unusual in dogs and there are plenty of threads on here if you search about them. Also the book Mine! is always recommended (Jean Donaldson). You mentioned they were about 6.5 years old and your guy is already neutered - early for this breed, perhaps Felix is still intact (did I miss that?) as for play escalating into a fight - remember for dogs play is also a social encounter where they are (especially at that age) trying on roles and teaching each other what their roles will be. And then again, sometimes (like little boys) they just get over excited and it escalates. The answer to your initial question though is , they are fighting because they are dogs, and young dogs who have just been brought together and may have different personalities, definitely different life experience and different expectations. They are still sorting some of it out. I wouldn't label it aggression at this point - its more like growing pains I would think. Oh and shave the poor matted boy - he will be more comfortable - the hair grows back quickly and its one less thing to make him cranky 
I hope this wasn't too disjointed - its early  |
| Hi everyone...
O.k...I am really grateful for the advise! As I said, they are usually the sweetest guys on earth, so, it is pretty sad when they fight. I was advised to separate them by grabbing their scruffs and pulling them apart...this has worked thus far, and I confess I have no been bit yet, however, I am sure there is always a first! yikes! After I separate them I put them in separate bathrooms for time out for 5 minutes. Then they get to be on leash or separated by baby gate. I was told by my pups breeder to wait till he was 6 months to neuter him, to allow proper bone development... all the vets in my area wanted to do it at 10 weeks(!) We waited the 6 months, and Felix is to be neutered in early January. I understand that one of you thought that was early? I did a lot of research for large breeds, and it seemed like 6 months was fine...I wanted to do the best for my pup...did I go about it the wrong way? In anycase...I will put up the bones, maybe that is a trigger! Hopefully this will be "cured" soon...because these guys are my favorite friends. Again...thank you so much!!! |
| wow your breeder said 6 months for neutering? WIth this breed the growth plates don't close until at least a year. It is better to wait until they close to avoid over long leg development and attendent orth problems. In addition if your vet said 10 weeks I would ask why and perhaps share this with them.
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html or this http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf if one is neutered and one isn't they may fight because of that, although I have an intact Newf and two older neutered males and they don't fight - you can never tell why. seperating them after fighting probably doesn't do anything - my two would fight, I would stop them and they would go play or cuddle up and sleep. odd |
 Well...I have to say that this makes me really really sad. Ferdinand is not just a dog to me. I bought him after I lost my twins to still birth...and he really has saved my life. I hate to think that I was mislead into neutering him prematurely, and that it might cause him harm in the years ahead. It really makes me want to cry...of course...I cry a lot anyway, so....that's nothing new.
It is really frustrating when you get so many conflicting opinions. Why do you only hear about this AFTER you've done it!!! All I can do now is hope my baby's health isn't going to be compromised. I'm already sad that he won't live forever...and now...I've just screwed up. Excuse me while I cry myself to sleep again. |
| I know how you feel.
I found this forum and all that useful info on desexing when Tiggy was 11 months old after she was spayed at 6 months old. I had advice from my vet and some other sources of info that said I must spay by then or risk mammary cancer and pyometria in the future. So I had her spayed, thinking I was doing the best thing for my furbaby.
I have decided though that I will not be too upset or angry. I did what I did with the best of intentions and I think most vets, here in Australia anyway, think that they are doing the right thing by recommending spaying. There is no way of knowing what would have been if I hadnt spayed. Who knows maybe I would have come to regret that decision. I have decided that the best thing for me and Tiggy is to move on and make sure that I care for Tiggy's health the best I can with the info at hand. I am keeping her at the lower end of a healthy weight range, exercising her appropriately to keep muscles and joints strong and will supplement with glucosamine in the future. I can tell that you also want only the best for your furbabies and that your decision was taken with the best of intentions. As disappointing as it is to not have all the information you did the best you could with what you knew, so you can take comfort in that. And in knowing that you will continue to give your furbaby the best care that you can. |
| I have always spayed and neutered my dogs at 6 mos. They are fine but if I had it to do over again I would wait so don't feel bad. I feel the dogs will be fine You can wait till growth plates close on your next dogs I did not see the research till I had already had my last boy done I wish you luck Have you had the dogs in any formal training ?? That would help a lot and yes pick up the bones and toys. Welcome to the forum we are a nice bunch here. I too have a sheepdog that helped me survive some medical problems Not as sad as yours. I don't think one ever heals from losing a baby. Good luck and keep us posted. |
| I didn't give you the info to make you feel bad, just so you would have it to make the decision for felix.
Like Mim said you did what you did witht the best intentions and as they say, it is what it is - you can't change it. I still wonder about a breeder that recommends early neuter though, they should know better. |
| Alot of times when you have two males there will be fighting. Its a male thing. That said I will have nothing but males in my house.
We brought Gar into our home when he was 2.5yrs old. Simon was 1.5yrs old. They got along great for a few days and then BANG. They had one big blowout and thats been it. They are best buds and attached at the hip....unless there are bones involved. Simon will lay with "his" bone between his paws and wait. Gar is happily munching away but something will draw his attention away and Simon will dive in and get the bone. At times this will cause a disagreement between them  . A sharp "NO" or "KNOCK IT OFF" will usually end this.
Is there any blood involved when your two go at it? Watch and check if they are connecting. If there is no blood..are you brave and just let them sort it out? Lots of times its a show of dominance,"hey I'm bigger and badder then you". There are times when my two go at it with loud growls, barks, teeth showing and knashing, body blows that would knock us off our feet. They are just playing..they are not connecting with the teeth. We sit back and watch the show. Pick up the toys, bones and feeding in separate rooms. For the growling one...hand feed for a few days and see if that works. Remember that these are young dogs and there will be fights and disagreements and that this is NORMAL! Heck I tried to kill my sister when we were kids. Take a deep breath and this too shall pass. |
| Thanks everyone...
sorry for being easily saddened. I'm afraid I'm not really "me" anymore. I've put all my sanity into focusing on my living children and my pups...and I'm just not really very stable on my feet yet. The idea of having anything else go wrong just breaks me all over again. I'm getting a little better with all the fluffy love around me...but it's still really hard. Regardless...yes, I've done what I've done...and it may have been bad advise...but...it was what I had. My hopes are that it won't matter this time...that my babies will live long and healthy lives...longer than expected. I've been letting them play and argue outside to establish "place"...but am keeping them one on one inside. Mostly to ensure that my kids don't get in the middle of a skirmish by accident. I'd be devastated if they got bit by accident. I know neither pup would hurt them on purpose....they've never shown the tendency for that. ever. I really want them to eventually just be buddies consistently inside too. Going to hire a good trainer to help me with this. Adding Bach flower remedies to their food and am giving lots of one on one. Felix is scheduled to go to the Groomer on Wednesday, we'd love to save as much of his pretty hair as possible...but I know parts do need to be shaved. (legs, face, behind ears and under belly...) He'll look like a weird sheep when she's done with him!!! Sooo....one thing I am wondering....sometimes my sheepies seem like they are trying to herd the other dogs (bassett and pug)....is this normal...they like to keep them in certain places and will bark at them if they move out of assigned place. Is this just a natural behavior that they KNOW without being trained????? My eldest son says they look like playground bullies with control issues. The rest of us think they are ridiculous. The pug and basset wag their tails the WHOLE time....so, they are not upset...just...stuck. Again...thanks everyone.... |
Ah your eldest son is very intuitive, he may have a brillant future as a dog handler. They are being bullies and should be told to stop. Many people excuse this behavior saying it is herding instinct. Not really. Herding instinct is an extension of prey drive that allows a dog to move and herd a group of animals to gether (so that they could pick off the weakest links) without the actual picking off the weakest link And remember herding is always a team sport, the dog is moving the sheep where the people want them which isn't usually int he corner - unless that is really where you want the other dogs 
Yes herding dogs can be more reactive to movement and can be demanding of other living things - they were bred for generations to think for themselves and do tend to have some latent control issues. But, rowdy behavior is rowdy behvior and should be stopped. Give your sone a hug and tell him he is much smarter than many adults I have met. |
O.k....the school yard bullying will be put to a halt  I will be sure to tell my son that his instincts were accurate--he will looooove the ego strokes!!!
I'm afraid I have a lot to learn. It is really easy to start anthropomorphizing with these sheepies...they seem so human at times. Like sweet silly kids that are sooooometimes kind of naughty!!! It can be hard to discipline the critter behind those big brown eyes (when you can see them that is...) Should I just say "no!" or should I physically remove them from their "bossy play"? It was a lot easier to have one pup....but...I WILL make this work. I MUST! |
emerging butterfly wrote: O.k....the school yard bullying will be put to a halt I will be sure to tell my son that his instincts were accurate--he will looooove the ego strokes!!! And so he should - it was a good call. I'm afraid I have a lot to learn. It is really easy to start anthropomorphizing with these sheepies...they seem so human at times. Like sweet silly kids that are sooooometimes kind of naughty!!! It can be hard to discipline the critter behind those big brown eyes (when you can see them that is...) It will all go better if you rememebr they are dogs, not scheming alpha protecting critters, but dogs, who sort of see things in black and white and expect parameters and quick solutions to their issues. Should I just say "no!" or should I physically remove them from their "bossy play"? Well, eventually no will work, but probably not at first. removing them and giving them a time out - or even just distracting them will help. It was a lot easier to have one pup....but...I WILL make this work. I MUST! Oh I raised two from 8 weeks and 14 weeks old (they are 6 weeks apart) so I understand that!! the first 6 weeks was like a vacation with only one puppy  But if you are diligent, and treat them seperately (we did seperate training classes - different nights and seperate activities) it is manageable. I always crated my two seperately - still do actually when they need to be crated, but mostly because they might not fit in one crate I also limited their time with our other dogs. It was always supervised and very seldom 2 on 1 as it were. Together their tendancy was to terrorize the neightborhood Funny now my female will tend to side with the Newf against her OES brother when given a chance. I wonder if that is because the OES male is neutered and my female and the Newf are intact??????? Back on topic, two are at least 10 times harder than 1 in many respects, but my two as 4 y/o adults are very easy to live with and have developed enough manners not to try to herd the other dogs. |
| I just want to say what a great attitude you have about this situation. Felix is such a lucky boy to have you open your heart to him. Please do not feel guilty about anything you have done for your fur boys. You are getting great advice from the caring OES lovers on this forum.
Daphne is my first sheepie and I have not had food issues w/her except for one time when my son was eating a piece of string cheese. He was on the floor eating it while watching tv and she snapped for the cheese and nipped him while going for it. It was not a serious injury but it scared both of us. I also felt tremendous guilt about the whole situation. I explained to my son how Daphne sees him sometimes as lower in the pack so we have done some things w/him to make Daph see him as a superior. I don't want to worry you, but also be cautious w/Felix while your son or any other child is eating. I have told John to only eat at the table and not on the floor which he should have been doing always anyway. Just remember, we are always here for you and I'm sure your babies w/your help and patience will learn to get along.  |
| Felix and Ferdinand passed a major milestone this afternoon. First, I ate a bowl of stew while Felix was on one side of the baby gate, and Ferdinand was in the kitchen with me. I made them both sit/stay till I finished....and I took my sweet time. Then, I fed them both, Ferdi in the kitchen, Felix right outside the gate. growling equated into removal of food for a count of 30. another sit, and they were given back the food. They managed to finish after only 2 removals, and then sat through my chocolate chip cookie and milk. Then, I gave Felix a minty cookie, and made Ferdi sit through that (which he was NOT happy about...but didn't growl) and then, gave Ferdi his cookie and made Felix sit. Then I gave them both a liver treat nose to nose at the fence. no growling, though Ferdi was rather tense. A few almonds later, there was less tension. Gave them both a spray of Rescue remedy and let them outside to play, which they did with gusto. They even seemed to forget to herd the other dogs. I am holding my breath...and will just continue like this for a bit before I do anything else.
By the way...my eldest son is strutting around like he is top dog. Should I spray him with a water bottle to put him in his place again? ha ha ha! |
| I would use the water bottle but someone might call child protection services.
Great news about the boys improvement. |
emerging butterfly wrote: Felix and Ferdinand passed a major milestone this afternoon. First, I ate a bowl of stew while Felix was on one side of the baby gate, and Ferdinand was in the kitchen with me. I made them both sit/stay till I finished....and I took my sweet time. Then, I fed them both, Ferdi in the kitchen, Felix right outside the gate. growling equated into removal of food for a count of 30. another sit, and they were given back the food. They managed to finish after only 2 removals, and then sat through my chocolate chip cookie and milk. Then, I gave Felix a minty cookie, and made Ferdi sit through that (which he was NOT happy about...but didn't growl) and then, gave Ferdi his cookie and made Felix sit. Then I gave them both a liver treat nose to nose at the fence. no growling, though Ferdi was rather tense. A few almonds later, there was less tension. Gave them both a spray of Rescue remedy and let them outside to play, which they did with gusto. They even seemed to forget to herd the other dogs. I am holding my breath...and will just continue like this for a bit before I do anything else.
By the way...my eldest son is strutting around like he is top dog. Should I spray him with a water bottle to put him in his place again? ha ha ha! Congrats on your success today.... You eating before feeding them is a great idea but, I would probably think you should keep them both away from you (not to favor one and intensify jealousy) Being herding dogs sometimes the fence can turn into a big issue (ie chasing cars, or anything that moves really) I would want to keep the focus at the fence very positive. Nose to nose treat giving even through secured by a fence is not a good idea (imho) That may cause them to be more of a resource gaurder. We have had issues in the past, we always seperate to feed (well, they are together but, at seperate stands and they know where they eat) and supervise when they have a treat.... They do get them in a line but, I watch until each crumb is cleared!! Best to always sit/stay before any reward so, they know you are top dog!! (This can even mean a toy) Good Luck, you are certainly putting your all in to it and I bet they will be fine with work!!!! |
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