Banning bobbing?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... fe_pets_dc |
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I have different views on the declawing issue....I think there are a lot of different ways of handling cats than cutting off the first knuckle. However, there are also some cats that you can try all of the postive measures to get them to stop and some just never learn that your favorite chair is not the place to sharpen your nails. I think in those rare occasions the owner should be able to get the cat declawed. If it is completely banned, we are going to have owners that will either euthanise or turn the cat into a shelter which are over ran as it is. There are some vets that advertise to people to get their 6 month old kitten declawed at the time of spaying, I won't go to a vet like that. I am getting off topic......  I don't know much about ear cropping, but I do know that from what I have researched about tail docking, it is typically done at 3 days and there isn't much risk or pain involved. That is not the case with declawing.
Sorry, I rambled so much on the issue, but it is one that is close to my heart.
Stormi and co. |
| I am all for tail docking if it is a breed standard. My Boxer had a litter a few years back... I brought the pups in for tail docking..which I watched the vet do. One snip two stiches and no noise from the pups whatsoever.
I have seen dogs that should have had their tails done. Boxers and Dalmations. Their tails are like whip and the ends of the tails tend to split and bleed from accidentally whacking their tails against wood doors...walls etc. A couple of these dogs then had to have their tails removed when they were older to avoid infection from open cuts that kept opening up. Of course being a painful procedure then when the tail in longer just cartilidge as it was when the dog was a pup. As for ears. My Boxer had floppy ears. Her ears actually started to shred too for her flaping her ears against the wall. She would shake and flap her ears everytime she would get up like shaking off water that wasn't there. I had to use a wash and medication and they eventually healed but new shreds would form. In some cases I believe the dog is better off having procedures done that will help them avoid pain in the future. Elissa |
| I think the reason why they dock OES is because of problems with poop getting stuck to their tails (same with Yorkies).
I can only imagine what it would be like - not only having to clean off their butts but their tails as well! Actually - I can because I have two cats and it happens if they don't squat JUST RIGHT!  But it would be horrible on such a big dog.
I wonder if it could get caught on something as well? Like if they had a matt or tangle in their hair and they moved by a bush - if it got caught... ouch! |
I live in Sweden were docking is absolutely forbidden. I have had an OES for 9 years and I have never had any problems with the poopissues since you just cut the hair around it and a bit on the tail; yes you have to make sure the poopdeal is working okey but you always check the poop anyway don't you.... 
I would never want a dog without a tail as I would never want a friend without a mouth and voice (or hands if dumb); I want my dogs to be able to communicate with what nature has given them. I also want my dog to be able to talk to other dogs with the tail and OES are already prone to get misunderstood by other dogs due to too much hair furing down, hiding the signals from eyes etc. Like I would never cut off limbs on a human baby due to some standards and I am completely sure and convinced puppies feel the taildocking no matter what some says. And on a soullevel how would you feel if one of your first memories on earth was that your tail; your way of communicating was taken away from you? I find it to be barbaric and not to be done to animals at all except when needed if it's an accident or other medical stuff. That's my point of view. Tails! |
......and claws to cats!!!
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| I really doubt the dogs that have this done at only few days - when it should be done- remember it any more than my sons remember their
circumcisions. How much do you remember from when you were even a few weeks old, really. |
I prefer breeds with docked tails...my favorite ones (OES, schnauzers, poodles, yorkies, etc...) all have docked tails. I think our great dane quickly got me out of tail liking  He was murder with that huge thing...lol
As for declawing, I can't tell much of a difference. We adopted two cats that were declawed. Sylvie was still evil...he just used his teeth instead of claws. Ashes was very sweet, and never tried to scratch (also declawed) or bite. Allie is our cat now. We got her as a kitten and decided not to have her declawed. She has never tried to scratch (not since she was a baby anyway), and she is as sweet as can be. There's really not much difference that I can tell between how Allie acts and how Ashes acted. Sylvie, I think he was just Satan reincarnated |
| The reason I don't like declawing for cats - is because they use them to stretch muscles in their legs. When they are declawed the muscle in their toes gets severed and they can no longer stretch those muscles - even when they pretend to claw something.
Even if it doesn't hurt them now - it hurts them later on as they can get arthritis from just not being able to stretch right. Cats are also not declawed at 3 days after their birth... it's months or even years after they are born. They can remember it all - I'm sure. I understand that dogs need their tails to communicate - but if my dog doesn't come with a tail - I'll love her anyway... because I will. |
| Hi,
My previous OES Shaggy had a tail which I just loved...big fan like tail...beautiful! My personal feeling is I wish they didn't dock them. It seems that I read not too long ago, the reason for the docking goes back to taxes being implemented on dogs back in England at the turn of the century unless they were working dogs. Docking OES tails identified them as such and so hense farmers didn't pay for taxes on working dogs. Tails are often used as rudders and back then farmers wanted dogs that would help gather the sheep but not run them down. Docking would actually slow down the speed of the dogs. Border collies were used for different task than OES. OES were drovers...meaning they helped the farmers take the sheep to the markets. Most dogs lift their tails naturally when they go to the bathroom and I never had a problem with Shaggy soiling herself on her tail. Merlin and Panda have some problems if they have stomache upsets but it's in the same area that Shaggy would have even with a tail. I personally miss the signals that you get with a tail, which I've previously spoken about on behavior issues when dogs meet other dogs. The tail is what gives most humans the signals for what their dog is thinking. Tail straight up...wants to fight, Tail down is being submissive and of course the wagging tail which shows they want to play. Merlin has no tail at all...nothing not even a stump. Panda has a little stub which wiggles furiously when he's happy and in fact his whole back end wiggles. :O) It's all a matter of personal taste and for me I like tails! Marianne and the boys |
| I want tails also. They need to wag.
I understand in the old days when hearders marked their dogs as working dogs by whacking off their tails, so be it a farm is a farm. I say let the tail wag. Let it knock the stuff off the coffee table you shouldn't drink that nasty stuff anyway or is it good for us now I can't remember. I also say let them see. Cut that hair from the eyes; they have a right to not bump into the wall, they should be able to see your face so they can tell that you love them. Set them freeeeeee, emotionally, let them wag and see. Step out of the box look at things the way you see them not the way someone wants you to see it. Be bold but respecful of others opinions, listen more than you talk. Talk when you need to say something important. Live, love and be happy. |
| Just so we are straight here... I am not for or against tail docking. I love my Tucker just the way he is. I do not think it affects them much when
it is done at a few days, as it should be. I do not care much for cats, even though we have 2. They have claws, and I would not get them declawed. I have my own ideas of why people get cats declawed. I just can't think of many legit reasons to do it. But that is me. And don't even start with the PETA stuff, because according to them we shouldn't even have pets. I rarely listen to any radical groups. Shellie (in PA) |
| I have two cats I adopted from a shelter and they were both declawed already. I do not think I would declaw a cat knowing what I now know. I would hate to cause any pain to my pet.
I, also, would never purchase a docked puppy. I love dogs and adore Sheepies, they have beautiful fluffy tails with white tips. There is absolutely no reason to cut off a Sheepie's tail and put a puppy through that unnecessary pain. Breeders state that is the "breed standard", but man created that standard, the breed in all it's glory is a tailed breed. Old English Sheepdog's tails were originally docked to prove they were a working dog so individuals would not be taxed on them. It actually had nothing to do with their herding ability, not that most of the docked Sheepies are herding anyway. At that time, dogs were thought of as property so no one cared much about the affect docking had on the dog. Today these dogs are part of our family, why would anyone want to continue this absolutely unnecessary practice. Just because things have always been done a certain way, does not mean it's right, maybe it is time for a change. |
| Lets get our facts straight. How do youi define pain? dogs are docked before the nerve endings are not completly formed, which technically means there is no pain involved. Dogs are property under the law still, but the tax story may be mor eof a myth than anything else. working dogs tails are docked to prevent injuries and the need to dock a tail at a later age when there will indeed be pain.
BTW - man created the breed as well as the standard. Just a thought - are your human kids ears pierced? That is cruelty if you ask me. |
| I am not for or against tail docking. If they have a tail ~GREAT. If it was docked correctly and at the right age ~GREAT
Personally I do have issues with docking ears and declawing cats. Those 2 things I simply don't like or agree with at all for a myriad of reasons. I would never get either one of those done and when we had our MinPin I requested that they never touch her ears. They were floppy and perfect and she had no clue other minpins ears were different than hers. I have many cats over the years since a young child. I remember reading how declawing was done when I was about 7 years old and from that moment on I have openly been against it. We had some that never scratched, some that did. Our rescue kitty, Donny, has his claws and had never ever scratched any furniture --- untill we moved into this new house. No new furniture... no other changes in his behavior EXCEPT for he now thinks its fun to get everyone's attention by attacking the edge of the couch. Even still-- I wouldn't dream of getting him declawed. I believe everyone has their own opinions. It's ok too. |
Integra Hellsing wrote: I think the reason why they dock OES is because of problems with poop getting stuck to their tails (same with Yorkies).
I can only imagine what it would be like - not only having to clean off their butts but their tails as well! Actually - I can because I have two cats and it happens if they don't squat JUST RIGHT! But it would be horrible on such a big dog.I wonder if it could get caught on something as well? Like if they had a matt or tangle in their hair and they moved by a bush - if it got caught... ouch! In actual fact they keep their butts cleaner when they have a tail. |
Rogers Dad wrote: I want tails also. They need to wag.
I understand in the old days when hearders marked their dogs as working dogs by whacking off their tails, so be it a farm is a farm. I say let the tail wag. Let it knock the stuff off the coffee table you shouldn't drink that nasty stuff anyway or is it good for us now I can't remember. I also say let them see. Cut that hair from the eyes; they have a right to not bump into the wall, they should be able to see your face so they can tell that you love them. Set them freeeeeee, emotionally, let them wag and see. Step out of the box look at things the way you see them not the way someone wants you to see it. Be bold but respecful of others opinions, listen more than you talk. Talk when you need to say something important. Live, love and be happy. Ummm...Top knot!!!!!!!!! |
Rogers Dad wrote: I want tails also. They need to wag.
I understand in the old days when hearders marked their dogs as working dogs by whacking off their tails, so be it a farm is a farm. I say let the tail wag. Let it knock the stuff off the coffee table you shouldn't drink that nasty stuff anyway or is it good for us now I can't remember. I also say let them see. Cut that hair from the eyes; they have a right to not bump into the wall, they should be able to see your face so they can tell that you love them. Set them freeeeeee, emotionally, let them wag and see. Step out of the box look at things the way you see them not the way someone wants you to see it. Be bold but respecful of others opinions, listen more than you talk. Talk when you need to say something important. Live, love and be happy. Unfortunately in most European countries we were deprived of making the decision to dock or not to dock as it is now illegal and I think most breeders in Europe would prefer to start docking again. It is nice to see the tail on the OES but we are losing the typical movement the rolling butt which was significant for an OES. The animal rights organization and some goverments wanted to and in some cases have banned tail docking but at the same time are bringing in laws which make you spey or castrate your dog which involves a lot of pain for the animal and also brings certain hazards, in my opinion a contradiction. A good breeder who still has the opertunity to dock will rightly do so and they have no option but to dock all of the pups as at such an early age they cannot tell which pup may be a future show dog, then after all is said this breed is called a BOBTAIL. As far as trimming the hair to let them see as Shon pointed out you could always put in a top knot which is exactly the same result. |
| My daughter and I both have our ears pierced. My daughter requested this, I did not force it upon her when she was to young to object. It was her decision, if dogs could talk I doubt any dog would request to have it's tail cut off. It is also hard to compare a pin piercing the ear to a tail that is severed through nerves, muscle and bone.
As far as puppies not feeling pain, this is absolutely incorrect. I am a physician and it was once believed that human infants do not feel pain, we now know this is incorrect. I do not have a son, but babies that are circumcized do cry during the procedure and this is not a coincidence. If you have ever watched a puppy getting docked by a veterinarian you will notice the puppies cry, that is because it hurts. Puppies just like human infants can feel pain. It is also extremely stressful on the mother dog to hear her puppies in distress. I hate to cause pain to my dogs, however, I do get them vaccinated and neutered. I feel the positives outweigh the negatives, but adhering to a "breed standard" is just not a good enough reason to cut off a dog's tail. I have yet to hear one argument that would ever convince me to cut my dog's tail off or my three day old puppies' tail off for that matter. |
Black Dog wrote: My daughter and I both have our ears pierced. My daughter requested this, I did not force it upon her when she was to young to object. It was her decision, if dogs could talk I doubt any dog would request to have it's tail cut off. It is also hard to compare a pin piercing the ear to a tail that is severed through nerves, muscle and bone.
As far as puppies not feeling pain, this is absolutely incorrect. I am a physician and it was once believed that human infants do not feel pain, we now know this is incorrect. I do not have a son, but babies that are circumcized do cry during the procedure and this is not a coincidence. If you have ever watched a puppy getting docked by a veterinarian you will notice the puppies cry, that is because it hurts. Puppies just like human infants can feel pain. It is also extremely stressful on the mother dog to hear her puppies in distress. I hate to cause pain to my dogs, however, I do get them vaccinated and neutered. I feel the positives outweigh the negatives, but adhering to a "breed standard" is just not a good enough reason to cut off a dog's tail. I have yet to hear one argument that would ever convince me to cut my dog's tail off or my three day old puppies' tail off for that matter. I did not say puppies do not feel pain. I said puppy tails do not have complete nerve endings by the age they are docked and therefore they cannot feel pain in that area. As a physician you are probably aware that without intact nerve endings pain does not exist? As for your daughter - unless she was a consenting adult I could very easily make an argument that you allowed her to be endangered for the mere fact of your desire to have her look a specific way. I doubt you would want me to do that. As for neutering what postitives are you talking about? I have intact dogs by choice and I see no need to arbitrarily neuter them. Hormones play much more of a role in dog development and maturity than a tail does. |
Black Dog wrote: if dogs could talk I doubt any dog would request to have it's tail cut off.
If dogs could talk and had a choice in the matter, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be standing in line to be cut open to have their reproductive organs surgically removed. Oddly enough I have yet to have a dog, for instance, jump out of bed one morning and demand to have his testicles removed If you have ever watched a puppy getting docked by a veterinarian you will notice the puppies cry, that is because it hurts. I have. Many times. Typically done when they are only hours old if that, with a local of some sort, no crying and mom never even notices. I hate to cause pain to my dogs, however, I do get them vaccinated and neutered. I feel the positives outweigh the negatives, And that should be your choice. Others feel differently, and that should be theirs. I had my lone male dog castrated and there is a lot more pain and short and long term health risks involved than having a young puppy docked, but I admit it, I'm lazy, so I did it anyway for my own convenience. but adhering to a "breed standard" is just not a good enough reason to cut off a dog's tail. I have yet to hear one argument that would ever convince me to cut my dog's tail off or my three day old puppies' tail off for that matter. Then the solution is real simple: don't. Kristine |
| Hi I am against docking. OES are born with tails why take them off. Yes they are cleaner. Anyway the tails are beautiful they are like feathers when they wag. |
| I think docking tails is a health hazard to dogs. My empirical evidence: I've only ever had sheepdogs with docked tails, so when I moved in with my fiance and his Wheaten Terrier I have not been able to fight the urge to pull her tail! |
Lil Walty wrote: I think docking tails is a health hazard to dogs. My empirical evidence: I've only ever had sheepdogs with docked tails, so when I moved in with my fiance and his Wheaten Terrier I have not been able to fight the urge to pull her tail!
well, honestly I think the health hazerd in that logical argument is NOT docking the tails. |
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