When did you have your boy neutered?

Langley is my first male just wondering when others have done it.

Respond to this topic here on forum.oes.org

I had Toby done about 12 months old................couldnt stand him any more :twisted:

he went back to my happy sheepie about two months later.

My 3 OES - all male -

Ollie - at about 6 yrs old (was frequently getting raw spots- scrapes and then he licked - on his testicles and getting infected) - otherwise he gave no trouble at all.

Bart - rescue - came to me neutered, of course. Not sure when he was neutered.

Chewie - 3 yrs old - not neutered and shows no obnoxious "male" behaviors.

Well I neutered Morgan at about 13 months - no behavior issues, I just had the time. Beowulf is 21 months old and intact - still no obnoxious behaviors (and we have an intact female)

You should at least wait until about 13 or 14 months when the growth plates close.

My first OES was a Pet Male, never neutered never a need to do it, lived to the ripe old age of 13.

Unless there is issues why neuter him?

Here is a link for info on it to peruse and make an informative decision to de-knack or not :wink:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTerm ... InDogs.pdf

Do a web search and you'll get all sorts of answers.......from vets!

I've heard as early as 6 month before the boy hormones really kick in causing problems. Others say not until the dog is physically mature...a year or so.

Of course it depends on the size of your dog......smaller ones mature faster, hence earlier. Bigger ones take longer.

Personally I wait and watch the dog. If he's having "teenage problems" due to increasing hormone problems, go ahead and neuter. If he's not show signs of any hormone induced problems, you can hold off until he's more mature.

Of course keep the unneutered dog under close wraps, one sniff of a female will cause him to come unglued.....in some manner, it varies with the dog. Yes, a young male dog can father a litter, our St. B did at 6 months old......the bugger.

I agree with SheepieBoss. We were going to wait with Edgar until he was older. Ended up getting it done around 9 months as he was having behavior problems. That fixed that. hehehehe

I'm agreeing with Lisa, if you are not having problems then things are better left alone. Ru has not been done and we don't plan to, he's 2 and has no issues apart from being a flirt.

I agree with "if and when you need to".

We neutered our dalmo at 5 months old, he was driving us crazy humping our feet. No one was safe you couldnt sit down and cross you legs without a dalmo puppy leaping on the top foot and going for it. :evil:

He is still a very dominant dog and will sometimes pick on a particular dog at the park and try to hump them, whether they're happy about it or not.

I guess we'll never know what he'd have been like if we didnt neuter thought.

I had my guy neutered @ 6 months...he never even knew the difference. And it's healthier for them to boot...all the problems that men can get they can.

oesgirl82 wrote:

I had my guy neutered @ 6 months...he never even knew the difference. And it's healthier for them to boot...all the problems that men can get they can.

Actually, there's plenty of research that suggests it is NOT healthier for (male) dogs to be neutered.

We neuter males so that they can't reproduce, plain and simple. There can be some limited impact on certain behaviors, but neutering also increases the risks of other (undesirable) behaviors, so know your dog. A temperamentally stable dog is a temperamentally stable dog, intact or not.

And, as the proud owner of a male who was neutered at age one, in his case he started humping more after he was neutered. Ah, well, he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer to begin with, poor dude :roll:

That said, if someone doesn't want to live with an intact male for whatever reasons, for orthopedic/developmental reasons you should at least wait till a year old, and older than that is even better, but you do what you've got to do. What you don't do is neuter thinking that you've done them any favors in the health department, because depending on the age there are an assortment of increased health risks that come with neutering. (In bitches the health arguments for/against are not so clear cut)

I know, I know - popular wisdom says differently, but that thinking has long since been discarded and persists mostly to convince people to neuter their dogs for population control purposes, which is a very legitimate reason to do so.

Kristine

I didn't neuter my boy just for reproductive reasons. And I'd be scared of how my boy would have been if he'd kept them as my vet said "he doesn't need anyone in the room to entertain him".

Working @ a veterinary clinic I have seen the repercussions of males - and females - not being fixed. Yes there those that are fine and live long lives not being fixed.

But I have seen those that have gotten testicular cancer, pyometria, breast cancer...and I don't want that for my pets and if I can do anything to help prevent that I will.

To each his own but given my experiences and what I have seen - I do not see any reason to keep him/ her intact if I don't plan on breeding or showing them.

oesgirl82 wrote:

To each his own

Absolutely. And mammary cancer, but above all pyo risk, are good reasons to spay a reasonable mature bitch.

Testicular cancer, on the other hand, though not uncommon in older intact males (one study puts the rate at about 7%), has a low rate of metastasis, is easily - ahem - removed and overall not particularly deadly for those reasons.

Neutering, on the other hand, increases the risk of prostate adenocarcinoma; in various studies neutered dogs were shown to have 4 to 8 times the risk as their intact counterparts, though the risk of developing this cancer in an intact dog is already small. If castrated before a year old it also significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma, a cancer which is unfortunately not uncommon in our breed. And neutered dogs, but especially spayed bitches, also have an increased risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma.

Spaying/neutering triples the risk of hypothyroidism, and neutering (and spaying) significantly increases the risk of orthopedic problems like CHD and CCL ruptures. Spayed/neutered dogs are also more apt to suffer adverse vaccine reactions: spayed bitches are 30% more likely to suffer such reactions than their intact counterparts, for neutered males the risk is 27% more. And neutered dogs have an increased risk of progressive geriatric cognitive dysfunction

On the plus side neutering obviously eliminates the possibility of testicular cancer, reduces the risk of perianal fistulas and reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders and may reduce the risk of diabetis, though they're not sure on this one yet (data was inconclusive).

So there is much to ponder in terms of risk/benefits. Pet owners deserve to know that.

Kristine

With the girls it does not 100% prevent mammary cancer later on if spayed if just lessens the percentage. Spayed bitches can still get it later in life, just because they were spayed early still not 100% guarantee they will not develope it.

That's what irks me with vets, the only thing they use is one point of scare tatics in de-sexing a dog or bitch they dont even mention the long term health risks that can occur because of de-sexing or the health benefits of leaving them entire.

Been through this recently with blasted vets and just gave my puppy owners info for them to make the choice, asked them also any dog aggression, do they get on well with other dogs and people, not over horny and humping everything, they all said NO, after vets were using scare tatics to neuter at 4-6 months old, oooh might get testicular cancer leaving them entire, OK they might or might not, non went ahead with it with the boys after seeing both sides of the great to do or not to do debate.

lisaoes wrote:

That's what irks me with vets, the only thing they use is one point of scare tatics in de-sexing a dog or bitch they dont even mention the long term health risks that can occur because of de-sexing or the health benefits of leaving them entire.

Me too!! Pet owners should be given ALL the facts and then make a decision based on their own pet and what they feel most comfortable with. Not a decision based on an over inflated fear factor.

lisaoes wrote:

Lisa, in defense of pet vets, they've been told XYZ. And then when they see an older intact animal develop mammary cancer or testicular cancer it merely reinforces what they've been told. They don't see the bigger picture and have little incentive to review the studies to the contrary. How would an individual vet correlate increased rates of hypothyroidism or CCL ruptures or osteosarcoma or behavioral problems in desexed vrs intact dogs? The links are not obvious.

Breeders see a different picture, in part because we can follow entire litters over their lifespan. In fact, some of what we've learned in terms of the true effects of spay/neuter originated with breed specific health surveys in populous breeds such as Goldens and Rotties.

The recent OESCA Health Survey contains questions that would allow researchers, should they desire, to take a closer look at the data to see if they can detect different rates of disease in intact vrs desexed populations, including age of s/n when known. Though the health survey report (which will be presented at the National Specialty next week and will be available on the OESCA Health website shortly thereafter) does not specifically address the effects of spay/neuter in any way, there is now considerable raw data that can be extracted along those lines and which will be available to assist in answering these kinds of questions in the future.

To those of you who succumbed to my insistent nagging (or were just generally predisposed to participate :wink:

) and took the time to respond, take a bow :roses:

You're my heroes.

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

) and took the time to respond, take a bow :roses:

You're my heroes.

Kristine

On the other hand it is a professional's duty to stay abreast of the latest research in their field, its one of the justifications for the professional fees that we all charge. The fees are meant to recognise the non contact hours that we spend keeping abreast of the latest research in our fields.

And there is a lot of information available regarding the pros and cons of desexing that pet vets dont seem to be offering their clients.

Mim wrote:

That's true. But only very recently.

And even though much of this information has been available for a decade or more, it was often in bits and pieces, sometimes discovered secondary to other research. At least one performance oriented vet in this country voiced her concerns years ago (Chris Zink DVM) so it was not unknown in the performance community, and longtime breeders, too, were questioning the practice based on observations, though only rarely did they have the data to back it up.

Only when the animal rights industry started really heating up in this country, pushing relentlessly for mandatory spay/neuter of effectively all dogs (see California), and often at ridiculous ages like 4-6 months, did people within the dog community step up and start collecting what research was available. And even then it was mainly to dispute juvenile gonadectomy. Fortunately in states where it mattered the applicable veterinary associations have typically stepped up to the plate (eventually) and backed our opposition to these measures.

That has made it OK to talk openly about the full extent of the risks/benefits. But even today there is a push to keep quiet about it. The last time this topic came up on a very rescue oriented OES list one of the people who gave a broader overview on the subject was privately rebuked. For telling the truth. Thought that attitude is not across the board by any means, efforts to supress the research still exist in the name of 'the greater good'.

Now, we can argue that as medical professionals vets have an obligation to be honest with their clients. But look how slow many are to change their vaccination recommendations? It's hard to change what you've done and believed for decades. My own vet, a breeder vet, didn't change her recommendations for age of spay/neuter till a few years ago, and not until after she had neutered one of her own puppies at 4 mos old, he was returned to her, and she could see first hand the detrimental effects. Otherwise all most vets are looking at in regards to most dogs are pretty abstract relative risks. And to many vets I expect the relative risk of unwanted litters outweighs the relative risks to the individual dog.

My chirovet, an unapologetic animal rights activist who feels all breeding should cease and desist, once admitted to me, behind closed doors and in a whisper, that, well, you know, those sex hormones are there for a reason. :roll:

I don't think most vets are that agenda driven. But they just haven't had cause to look further. And gonadectomies are a pretty lucrative business, so unless there's compelling reason, why give pet owners reasons to second guess the procedures?

No, I don't like the lack of professional honesty (or competence) either. But it doesn't surprise me and I think most of those who continue to push for early and across the board s/n firmly believe they are correct in their beliefs that the surgery is fundamentally harmless and overwhelmingly healthy. It's going to take more research to support the research that already exists to convince some of them.

My first dog, a poodle, died of uterine cancer ( a rare cancer in dogs). She was intact her entire life as Norwegian vets were of the philosophy that you only spay/neuter if medically necessary. She'd never had a litter. I brought her with me when I moved to the states and she was about 15. She was pushing 16 when she got ill and had to be put to sleep. My then vet gave it to me both barrels even as he was administering the drugs that would kill her: had she been spayed she would still be alive. I thought then, and I know now, that spayed, it's just as likely she could have been dead from some other cancer by age 8 or 10 or 12. Or some other autoimmune mediated issue, given that research is suggesting that sex hormones provide a vital role in a functioning immune system. But he believed what he believed, and there, to him, was the proof.

Now, the bigger picture was that she was almost 16 years old, a respectable lifespan for most dogs. She was never ill a day in her life until the very end. Not once.

:lmt:

Kristine

Nothings black and white is it? :wink:

oh except a sheepie puppy! :lol:

Mim wrote:

Nothings black and white is it? :wink:

oh except a sheepie puppy! :lol:

well there wass that one with the brown paw....... :twisted:

kerry wrote:

Mim wrote:

Nothings black and white is it? :wink:

oh except a sheepie puppy! :lol:

well there wass that one with the brown paw....... :twisted:

I'm afraid to ask...

Kristine

kerry wrote:

Mim wrote:

Nothings black and white is it? :wink:

oh except a sheepie puppy! :lol:

well there wass that one with the brown paw....... :twisted:

Is that related to the one with the yellow head? :wink:

well I searched and couldn't find it. there was a picture of a puppy where the paw was turning brown. I know I am not imagining it - other things maybe, this not so much

Well, Sunny brought Luca to the trial yesterday and Sybil, who adores her uncle, and may be the only bitch on the planet who feels that way :roll:

almost ended up with yellow-head if not for Sunny's keen eye and quick response rate....

With apologies to Spacegirl for getting even further off her original question, and to anyone whose sensibilities may be offended, I was talking to my vet this weekend about breeding plans. Or non-plans, depending on how you look at it. And she happened to mention that though the technology is not yet there for bitches like it is dogs in terms of collection & freezing of reproductive material, shall we say, some places are starting to freeze and store ovaries (collected when a bitch is spayed) banking on the technology catching up in the not too distant future. She's already had this done for one OES bitch.

Just something else to ponder... :lmt:

Kristine

Mad Dog wrote:

Well, Sunny brought Luca to the trial yesterday and Sybil, who adores her uncle, and may be the only bitch on the planet who feels that way :roll:

almost ended up with yellow-head if not for Sunny's keen eye and quick response rate....

Kristine

OOOOO!!! wow, the possibilities are mind boggling aren't they.

Just wondering if your puppy has an undecended testicle would you have surgery at 6 months or wait until he is a year? As I understand the undecended testicle can develope into cancer if left but giving the dog more time being unaltered could give me a healthier dog? thanks for your opinions in this.

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