Any one know anything about this breeder??
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| This is regarding another breeder in another state but there is a lot of good info here. http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?t=20012
For some reason this name sounds familiar. They don't appear to be OESCA members.  |
Quote: From everything I have found seems like everything is ok. I do not know this breeder. Just information in general for anyone buying a puppy from someone if they don't show and aren't a member of OESCA... The most important question I failed to ask when I bought my first OESs was whether the parents (BOTH) were OFA and CERF tested for the conditions previously mentioned. Another question buyers often fail to ask is whether the breeder has ever produced a pup with a genetic defect. Defects can appear in even the best of lines but it's all about what happens next. ... #1 What happened to the puppy/dog after the condition was diagnosed. #2 What did the breeder do to prevent it from happening again. Ending a line may be the responsible thing to do. Be leery of any breeder that says their dogs are healthy but can't back it up with 3rd party test interpretations. Some will simply say that their vet says the dogs are healthy... I've heard that before. A breeder's vet interpreting x-rays for their own client is not acceptable. You need a disinterested 3rd party like OFA. If a breeder doesn't do any testing and you decide to buy a puppy despite this, please invest in a good health insurance policy even if you can now afford thousands of dollars in vet care. Please be a responsible buyer... I have an OES that was surrendered to OES rescue shortly after being diagnosed with hip dysplasia. If you want hip dysplasia or another genetic condition to have any chance of being a covered, consider a policy from Embrace Pet Insurance and take it out shortly after buying your puppy- http://www.embracepetinsurance.com If people don't think they can afford the insurance premiums, they probably can't afford to treat genetic health conditions. I took an AKC health policy out when my 2 puppies from a byb were around 4-5 months old. This was about 5 1/2 years ago. A very good investment because they have medical issues. Thankfully not hip dysplasia because this policy won't cover it. One dog has maxed out her coverage for allergies (over $3,000) and 3 surgeries for things that wouldn't heal on their own. I will continue the coverage for other issues including her low thyroid... she would be uninsureable now with any other company because of preexisting conditions. One more thing... don't fall for any of the hype about a dog having champion bloodlines or being show quality if the dog doesn't come from a show breeder.  It's about "who's your daddy" (AND mama) not who's your great-great-great-great-great-great grand daddy (AND grandma). Ask exactly where in the lines the champions appear.Yet another... ask about the age of the female and when she had her last litter. A good breeder usually gives a girl a break and will skip a season. Read the Old English Sheepdog Club of America's breeder code of ethics on what makes a responsible breeder- http://oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica. ... s_2000.htm So much more goes into responsible breeding... how the pups are brought up. Anyone remember the post about some breeder who left the puppies with an automatic feeder and only handled them on the weekend and now the buyer had behavior issues? Sheesh. And it's not that I don't love my byb dogs... they are THE BEST in temperament!! (They're the two pixies currently pictured on the left.) I just wish for their sake that they were healthier.  Quote: For some reason this name sounds familiar.
She sells puppies on PF... you know Ron doesn't like that place mentioned here  |
| I have looked at there webpage as well. The breeder I have been looking into got there sire from these guys. Neither of them seem to be OESCA folks so I am apprehensive. I do know that the people I am looking at ( http://www.cottondogs.net/ ) SEEM like really good people who give there dogs A LOT of attention and care. They say all the right things but until I get some actual hard proof on there certifications and health I am considering it all BS. |
| Yes! This is an excellent breeder. We purchased an OES 3 years ago from this breeder and our dog has been healthy, lovable and has brought much joy to our lives. Her dogs are very well cared for. They take real pride in raising healthy puppies. I cannot say enough good things about this breeder. She even drove to KC to meet me with the puppy. You can buy with assurance from this dealer and know that you are getting a top-quality, well-cared for puppy. We're now thinking of getting another one from her; she is a very trustworthy breeder! [*] |
| I do agree the testing is very important but just as important or even more important ask to read the guarantee that comes with the pup. Is something like HP covered for a year. Be very careful not to purchase a pup from someone that does all the testing and something as major as HP is not covered. I hear over and over how someone spent thousands of dollars to purchase the perfect pup... all the testing was done...yet within weeks, not months but weeks, the pup had HP.. when the breeder was contacted they said... " oh it didnt come from us... we have our dogs OFA ed and they are good... it must be something you did, plus we do not cover the hips" Any good breeder that knows their lines are good will not hesitate to place a warranty on the hip, and back it up with another pup or your money back. I think this breeder covers her pups 100 % ... I know of several people that have purchased a pup or two from her and they are extremely happy. She has been raising pups for a long time and she is very good at it. If a breeder has been breeding for years and they are good they will still be around... the bad breeders fade away with a couple of years. Laurie is an excellent breeder, with a very nice line. I would not hesitate to get a pup from her. |
| My dog is a Cottondog puppy. She is now two and a half. We have had no problems what so ever. Both her parents are OFA and CERF. Joey has her reasons for not belonging to OESCA. I'd buy another puppy from her again. |
Quote: . If a breeder has been breeding for years and they are good they will still be around... the bad breeders fade away with a couple of years. That is totally NOT TRUE. The ones who are in it for the money - and many are- are still going to be making money regardless. They couldn't care less that many of the new owners have spent a fortune on vet bills. Lots find a way to get out of responsibility for the unhealthy puppy - mostly due to the new family having "fallen in love with the puppy" or any of a number of reasons. Please don't lead people to believe that just because someone has been around for many years they are a good breeder. That is SO not the case. That said - I have nothing to add about the OP's breeder. Shellie |
| Yes I guess you are right.... even on this site I read about a breeder that has sold some very sickly pups...but she is still breeding.....I guess one would really have to do their homework to know if its a good breeder. I am sure any breeder could have a problem every once in a while, reguardless of all the testing and study possible, at that point it is how the problem is handled. If the breeder just turns away, or blames the new owner, or simply tell the new owner too bad its you pup now... its your problem now.... not covered in my contract.... THat is why I think it is absolutely necessary to know what is and is not covered before the purchase...... Several people have posted that to go to a home.... view a litter of beautiful pups... fall in love with one... and buy it without any research would be like standing on the steps of a car dealership saying.... I want that car.. does it have leather seats....guess one should take that to the next level and ask about the guarantee that comes with the pup... and what does it cover... for the hips not to be covered just because both parents have been tested would be like the car dealership telling you.... oh go ahead and buy the car... and dont worry about the warranty because it has been test driven.... Bottom line is a good breeder will not have any problem placing a good warranty on a pup... and standing behind it.... just in case there is a problem. The question was concerning Lorie Roberts....she is a good breeder and she gives an excellent warranty and if there is a problem...she will honor her warranty.... She is an excellent breeder and she produces beautiful healthy pups. |
Sheepdog Lover wrote: and what does it cover... for the hips not to be covered just because both parents have been tested would be like the car dealership telling you.... oh go ahead and buy the car... and dont worry about the warranty because it has been test driven.... Bottom line is a good breeder will not have any problem placing a good warranty on a pup... and standing behind it.... just in case there is a problem. Precisely. Any breeder worth their salt both health tests AND stands behind their dog, spelled out in the contract. It's typically called a guarantee, not a warranty, because you can't warranty a dog (not like you can replace the parts, generally speaking, eh? ) But you can guarantee that in the event of situation X (this generally covers more than just hips), this is how the situation will be remedied. Though the details may vary guarantees are actually pretty standard. But check the parents' health clearances first. Makes one less likely to have to put that part of a contract to the test. Kristine |
| Strange twist of fate but we inherited one of Laurie's Roberts' puppies. He came with all the original paperwork, contract and pedigree. Nowhere did it indicate that any health testing had been done. Our boy is long and leggy, very cute and mischievous and so far seems perfectly healthy. His pedigree includes some Champions several generations back but does not indicate that any of his relatives have been shown to Championship in recent years. None of them are on the OFA site either. I was a bit disturbed to find that his parents are Greybear dogs, of which I recall a lot of negative comments had been made about here. That said, there were also some dogs from recommended OESCA breeders in his pedigree so who knows what to believe? All I know is that we love our big clumsy guy. People can only throw out their opinions about this breeder or that. Dogs are living and breathing creatures and things do go wrong. I wish our boy was from a top-winning kennel but as far as he's concerned, that's not what is most important.  We love him anyway. |
| We bought Jaxson from Laurie Roberts and he is a good boy. Everything he does is similar to what everyones Sheepies do. Clumsy, goofball, smart, blah, blah, blah. I found Laurie to be a good breeder. I do not have any previous experience with breeders but everything was handled professionally. People stop us all the time to meet Jaxson. When I am standing in front of my house people actually stop to get out of their cars to meet him. He is a good looking boy and great with my kids. He fits in well with our family. LR gave me all the necessary paper work I needed to know she was a good breeder. She also did the necessary tests. I think the negative talk is premature here because she has been around a long time and you do not see many negative things about her. Oh I get it, she is not on the recommended list so that means she is bad. So not true. She is good people and Sheepdog owners should be happy she is on our side. |
Giantfish wrote: Oh I get it, she is not on the recommended list so that means she is bad. I think you're missing the point, hon. This isn't about the breeder of your dog or any other specifically. This is about what to look for in a breeder. It's advice. Often learned the hard way. Go to the medical and behavior sections and you can go through thread after thread that tells you why doing your homework when getting a puppy is simply common sense. As for "recommended" breeders, I presume you are referring to the OESCA referral list. Yes, that's a quick way to steer people in the direction of breeders who have a proven track record of working on the breed's behalf. To get on that list you have to, among other things, sign a code of ethics. As part of that code of ethics a breeder must agree to the bare minimum recommended health screening of any dogs they breed - and they need to be able to produce proof of same. They must also agree to be there for the owner who buys a puppy/dog for them. For life. And they should ideally put their money where their mouth is when making claims that the dog (or bitch) they want to breed resembles the breed to an acceptable degree and have the dog independantly evaluated - commonly known as showing the dog. The health testing results are generally published on the OFA website. They are visible and you can measure what they say against what they actually do. There is a transparency and checks and balances that are not easily found otherwise. My first OES came from a back yard breeder. She was a nice person. And I loved my dog even though she grew into a dog with serious temperament and, later in life, health problems. She was not, in fact, always a joy to live with, but I didn't know any better and thought maybe the breed was just this way. And the breeder was none the wiser because bad owner that I was I never kept in touch. How was she to know she was producing these problems? I'm sure she thought her puppies were all wonderful. Love the dog you're with. And it's certainly your perogative to go with whatever breeder you wish. But respect that others may have experiences that dictate they feel differently. I wish your little furball a long and healthy and happy life. Kristine |
| Also my 2 cents,look into the pedigree.The sire,the dam and beyond.Truly from experience,learn from others that have been through serious heartbreaking health issues within this breed. Any genetic disease can and will rear it's ugly head unless you know what is in the puppy's pedigree. What is alarming to me is the temperament issues that are starting to show up! Truly worrisome if you ask me. But if people are breeding for the betterment of the breed,in other words if a health or temperament issue shows up,the right thing to do is fix the dog and do not breed it again. Robin |
| Absolutely agree here. I was able to check the parents records and found nothing wrong. Because of this site and of course the OESCA I was able to educate myself with what I consider to be a very good dog. I think if you have a healthy dog, what you put into him/her is what you get out when it comes to temperment. If your dogs are bored or neglected they will do bad things. If you spend the time with them, which everyone does here, and train them you should have a good temperment dog. Some of the posts before mine were negative to my breeder so I figured to step in and give her a vote of confidence. |
| Can you please tell us the parents names so that we may look it up also? Education is the key and sharing knowledge is even more important. This forum can help newbies along with OFFA.org. OESCA is a wonderful tool to educate and sharing knowledge, again, is very important. Robin |
gumbo41 wrote: Can you please tell us the parents names so that we may look it up also? Education is the key and sharing knowledge is even more important. This forum can help newbies along with OFFA.org. OESCA is a wonderful tool to educate and sharing knowledge, again, is very important. Robin No! |
| Oh well then what a shame cause it could be a wonderful thing to do for the love of the breed. I am sorry you cannot share the sire and dams name of your beloved Jaxson. Robin |
| I'd rather not say and give too much information about my experience with my dog and breeder. Thanks for kind understanding. |
| The best "vote of confidence" you can give your breeder is to share those records -OFA records are viewable to everyone. Having your dog health tested is another indicator that the breeder is producing a healthy line. In other words put your money where your mouth is. I had the x-rays on my backyard bred dog to prove that I didn't do the homework. And the records are visible for the parents of the dog on who I did do research. I also have the peace of mind from his own tests which translates into a vote of confidence for my breeder. Here are his records: http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1281754#animal Just because someone says they did health testing does not mean they have or are willing to publish the results because they have nothing to hide. Most people wear blinders when it comes to their kids and their dogs. Just ask the parents of the brat that nobody wants to be around.  As a person who NOW does my homework having learned the hard way what can happen when you don't, I wouldn't pay attention to heresay anyway. I want as much physical proof as possible - even from OESCA breeders. What my breeder does not know is that everyone she referred to me about her dogs - I encouraged those prospective owners to scrutinize these issues as well. I feel it is the responsible thing to do for the betterment of the breed. Because it is not about my breeder versus your breeder, it is about the well being of future genertations of these wonderful dogs. A responsible breeder understands this. |
| I am not asking for your experience with your breeder.Wanted to know the sire and dam name so that I could see with my own eyes that the required tests were performed and documented,that's all. Going through experiences within this breed makes one very protective of this breed. Is this your first OES? Just wondering. Robin |
Giantfish wrote: I think if you have a healthy dog, what you put into him/her is what you get out when it comes to temperment. If your dogs are bored or neglected they will do bad things. If you spend the time with them, which everyone does here, and train them you should have a good temperment dog. Some of the posts before mine were negative to my breeder so I figured to step in and give her a vote of confidence. I just wanted to point out something that you said, that is incorrect..... Here is a great definition of temperament:::: When we talk about temperament, we are referring to a collection of drives, thresholds, traits and instincts that are inherited and innate. Yes, it's true. Temperament is a function of genetics.[b] It is inherited, not developed. A dog's core temperament never changes. Some behaviors can be modified through training, but the temperament itself never changes. For example, a high energy dervish of a dog isn't going to learn to be a laid back, low energy dog. But, the dog can be taught to control his energy, to an extent. Most dog owners absolutely refuse to believe this. If I only had a dollar for every time someone has told me "It's all in how they're raised!" . . . No, it's not. It's all in how their DNA came together. A dog with foul temperament will always be a dog with foul temperament, no matter how wonderful the environment. A dog with sound, stable temperament will always be a sound, stable dog, even in a lousy environment. Please understand, I am only responding because I have always thought like you until I got my Cosmo. It brought truth to what has been stated about temperament. No one has tried harder, been more patient, giving more than I have with my Coz...but he WAS a poorly bred BYB dog and at nine years of age, he still has issues that cannot be overcome with love, time and training. I HAVE accepted him just as he is. I love him and I feel so bad for him because he is NOT a joyful dog. He is always worrying about people and his surroundings. After saying all of this, I do hope you realize, temperament is genetic, and nothing you do can change that. Aside from all the testing done by quality breeders, they also breed not only for healthy puppies, but for even temperamented puppies as well!!!  |
| Thank you Val for also picking up on that. I wanted to post to correct that statement but you did an excellent job! Robin |
| I went and reread this whole thread and it started in 09 and lo and behold here it is 2 years later and pops up out of the blue. Really is quite easy to figure out why. But anyway what is HP...does the guarantee cover HP? Please bear with me,but can someone or the poster explain to me,what is HP,am I missing something,please explain what is HP. Maybe just maybe the poster meant to write,does the contract cover HD. Robin |
Meet Breezey She was dumped at a shelter by Woodleaf Hill Kennels because, she was attacked by the other breeding female. This is a fact as I talked to the breeder...Susan was nice but, her husband threatened me! He swore she had never been bred  I tried to get her from this "kennel" but, they would not work with rescue! Thank dog, I had a friend there that could save her at the time, before she was euthanized. Ripple was dropped off in a "drop box" at a shelter I do not know who his breeder was but, should any dog be in this condition??  These are only two of the trauma cases here....many more out there! We are trying to stop this fom happening! That is why we are all so determined to stop irresponsible breeding! |
| How very sad is this....breaks my heart.This is exactly and then some why people on this forum come unglued. That kennel is no longer, but a member of this forum sent me a pedigree to look at and it contained this kennels dogs.She asked me if I knew anything about these dogs and then she proceeded to buy the puppy that contains this kennels dogs in the puppy's pedigree. Thank you Kathy for posting these heartbreaking pictures. Robin |
| [quote="gumbo41"]I went and reread this whole thread and it started in 09 and lo and behold here it is 2 years later and pops up out of the blue. Really is quite easy to figure out why. Robin- I'm confused  What do you mean with the above statementAlso from past threads it appears that you are a breeder... what is your kennel name???? If you are a breeder could you please list your sires and dams since you have been breeding???  |
| Hi furry and four paws! What do you think that statement means? Yes I have bred Old English Sheepdogs,but it looks like you knew that already. No kennel name.Look around on this forum and you can find the names of my furkids. If I ever do breed again, I will feel quite honored to be entrusted with an exceptional tempered, healthy line of Old English Sheepdogs. My girl,Bella has passed all of her required tests and looking forward to this event,if and when it may take place. Robin |
No Robin I don't know what you meant that is why I asked  Also don't ask someone else to do something you seem unwilling to do youself. Maybe Giantfish felt the sharks were circling I am glad to see no witch hunts in this post, just good information. No one wants bad breeders out there no matter what the breed. I think it has been established there are good and bad conformation/show breeder and the same for nonshow breeders. I think what everyone has asked is due your reseach and pray your right (your buying a living thing-genetics aren't perfect) |
| I don't get it. There are people here who buy a puppy and then join this group thinking it will be fun and informative. Maybe they were unable to buy a puppy from a top-notch breeder or just didn't have the information that they would get once they're here for awhile. Can you really blame people for dropping off this forum and going somewhere a bit more friendly and accepting of their dogs? There's some irony to gumbo41 continuously needling people about their dogs and the breeders they've obtained them from. First of all, it's none of anyone's business. Secondly, someone with the track record of health problems in puppies she's produced has no business making judgements against anyone. |
| Yes be careful. Just because someone has bred before does not mean that they know what they are doing. |
| Excuse me Nita??? Who are you to judge or even write something about someone you do not know. Are you going off of gossip???? Sounds like it to me. Broaden your mind...there are 2 sides to everything and every story,even gossip. If you have more to say about me give me a call so I can set you straight. The things I have heard about you would curl your hair and you can call it gossip or is it the gospel truth??? Call me... Guest get a user name and do not hide as a guest if you want to make accusations and assumptions. Robin |
| I don't even know you. What I'm stating are things that have been posted here and you have confirmed yourself. People love their dogs regardless of where they come from. All I'm saying is that we need to get off of these people's backs or there isn't going to be anyone here. The constant needling is counterproductive. |
| Thank you Nita, I couldn't have said it better As I have said in past posts- I watched this forum for a year before I joined. I joined to defend my breeder.... Here's my story- My breed for 30yrs was working line GSD's. Fifteen years ago I was going to get my final ultimate dog. I did all the research. The sire and bitch of my dog were top titled front and back(comformation and working).Both OFA excellent hips. I bought my dog at 1yr of age. I like to know real temperment not just puppy when I buy a dog. First my guy had mild HD. Okay some money back from the breeder, I could deal. Training and everything went well for 6-8months. I loved my big guy,smart great temperment( I was going to use him as a therapy dog) Problems started at 18months, it took 6months to figure out he had systemic lupus. I had to put him down at two and a half when it got to his brain. I later found out his dad died of the same disease and the breeder knew Basically all of my dogs since then have been rescues, all pure breeds, and great dogs ( all have gotten their CGC's and have been Delta certified therapy dogs) I had planned on doing rescue for my OES. I had an issue (not worth discussing in an open forum-especially since this person has died) and had to back out of adopting a rescue OES. I took my time and did my reseach before I bought my OES. Yes I have my bias because of what happened before. I couldn't be happier with my dog. She is two and a half with no health issues. We x-rayed her hips when we spayed her a 9months. They are great! I have a medical background and look at x-rays all day. Her hip ball is well seated in her pelvic socket. Sorry I'd rather use the money I'd spend for OFA in her rally training I think Ripley is part mountain goat-she'd rather jump over or on something than around it.Last weekend I got my final comformation I had the right dog  . I had Rip at the local Pets Mart. I was reading something and she was sitting at my side. I heard a child squeal-looked down to see a 2yrs arms wide charging my dog. The child grabed my dogs ears and stuck her face right in Ripley's( my dog was not raised around children). As I rapidly reached down Ripley just calmly licked her nose.  The child's mother did not show up until a minute later. She didn't like what I had to say about how well she was watching her child in a pet store Ripley should start getting her rally titles this winter (I like to wait let my dogs grow up-then whip through the levels) She'll be my therapy dog replacement when I retire my Shilo next summer. All this from a breeder some on this site have called a back yard breeder I haven't been a member of this forum long. I do enjoy what I read most of the time. My mother always said "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar"  You can not teach (no matter how great your knowledge) if you put someone down and belittle their choices. Sorry for being so long... one last motherism...If you have nothing positive to say don't say anything  |
furry and four paws wrote: Sorry I'd rather use the money I'd spend for OFA in her rally training Just to clarify for anyone who is considering competing with their OES and wants to have their dog's hips x-rayed so they know the dog is OK to jump and so on, the x-ray itself is the main cost, whether you submit it or not. Submitting it to the OFA is an extra $35, and that is a bargain considering you get the collective opinion of three board certified radiologists. If you submit hip and elbow x-rays together it's a total of $40. Drawback is you need to wait till the dog is at least 24 months old for a final finding. Which isn't generally a problem since you're not jumping them at or even near full agility height until their growth plates have closed, anyway, and this is a slow maturing breed. You can submit younger if you don't mind a preliminary finding and really should do so if there's any doubt. A friend had her rescue OES x-rayed at 10 mos because she heard clicking sounds and the dog is indeed dysplastic, but she still competes with her, just at lower jump heights. Most OES (and other) agility competitors I can think of end up OFAing for the convenience of it more than anything probably. Off topic, really, but just FYI. Kristine |
| Do dogs have to be put under to get xrayed? Is this because they have to be in a particular position and it is just not possible to pose them properly if they are awake and squirming? I know that my vet, during Mady's annual checkup, did quite a bit of pulling and checking out her hips (she said they were great) but is there an advantage to the xray? I have no particular worries about Mady in that regard, but for dogs who do test positive for early hip displasia, what can be done for them? Or is it just good to know so that you don't overly stress their hips? |
| Honestly, it depends on the dog, And since you're in Canada and I'm not familiar with the OVC's requirements, I would ask Amber. The OFA recommends that they be at least lightly sedated to more easily get them in position. A cooperative dog, a good x-ray machine and an experienced vet greatly reduces the need. I don't like putting my dogs under unnecessarily either. Mady's a bit too young to really be worrying about that, anyway, given that she's completely assymptomatic. You can easily wait till she's two and consider whether you want to do it at that point or not. Kristine |
| I know that Amber does all that kind of testing on the parents (and grandparents etc.) and I know that our vet said that Mady's hips were terrific, so I have no worries for myself, I was just curious about the 'science' of it. Well, that, and my own hips click when I go down steep stairs... |
Mady wrote: I know that Amber does all that kind of testing on the parents (and grandparents etc.) and I know that our vet said that Mady's hips were terrific, so I have no worries for myself, I was just curious about the 'science' of it. Well, that, and my own hips click when I go down steep stairs... With me it's my knees... I was diagnosed with "floating" (luxating) patellas in my early 20s. It's a good thing I never reproduced Not that I doubt Mady's hips, but in terms of the science, you really can't confirm good hips by manipulation. That's why we x-ray. And even then you need a vet who knows how to position properly. Kristine |
| Thanks Kristine Its been 15yrs since I've messed with OFA. I'm comfortable with the x-rays I took at 9months. I've just starting jumping Ripley now at 28months-no problems thanks for the info though... This is why I like the forum Pat |
| Someone has taken my intent and turned it into something else. I belong to many chat lists about OES,have for many years,this one has been around for 13 years and I believe I joined 13 years ago and moved and had to rejoin because of some reason I cannot remember,why. I was frowned upon because I did not do "all" of the proper tests and also did not show my dogs. I was younger and never dreamed in a million years that a health issue would or could show up. Never even gave it a thought,actually, and guess what a health problem did show up after about 7 years into the breeding.Now I know better and have talked to others and have learned anything genetic can show up,but all you can do is the proper tests to try to prevent it from showing up and say at least I did do the testing to try to prevent it.I brought up pedigrees because it can help or it does help within breeding. When the health issue showed up I was devastated and did cry out for help,asked if others had seen or experienced this genetic disease. I did as much research as anybody could and then some.I did spay the bitch and knew there was a lesson to learn and believe me it was the best thing that could of happened to me. I am here only trying to help others to learn from me,not whatever you people think I am trying to do. So if you really knew me then you would know this.I am not looking to hurt anyone because I know how that feels.I am friends with furry and four paws breeder,why would I want to hurt her? What I do not like is people that come on this forum and say things about other breeders and do not identify themselves,gossip,because believe me over the past 25 years I have heard a lot also,but it is just hear say to me unless the breeder herself has confided in me.This is done as in sharing knowledge of a health issue in a pedigree.I freely wanted to give my girls pedigree to the proper people and I did, because it was the right thing to do. I also love to research pedigrees and read about the different kennels and how this dog or that dog was produced,to me it is like reading a history book. So please forgive me if I gave anyone the wrong impression,I so would love to help others and help them prevent making the mistakes I made.I am still learning, but I have learned the lesson, to do all of the proper tests,that is a given, for anyone who cares about the breed. When you know better you do better is what a wise woman that I respect highly told me and she is correct. Robin |
| I don't say a lot about breeding etc... unless I see an issue I can speak of or have personal experience. Yes, Robin is a friend of mine and I do know all the research she is looking into. Pedigree, genetic issues etc... You live and you learn! This is not a defense or attack on anyone on my part, just staing facts. I had respect for Robin the first time I talked to her... We had a dog come into rescue in NC that the owner release was a similar name. I called Robin and asked her about the dog...My Devyn It ended up Devyn had nothing to do with Robin but, she made darn sure well it didn't! I know I may tick some people off with my thoughts but, I am a very upfront person! You will never here of me posting as a "guest" or hiding anything I am who I am! All dogs are wonderful no matter what thier background...we love them! Heck, my husky mix we bought from a pet store YEARS ago! I didn't know any better but, would not change a thing! That was almost 15 years ago... Of course we can all disagree but, no reason to be negative all the time! Just my 10 cents  |
furry and four paws wrote: Thanks Kristine Its been 15yrs since I've messed with OFA. I'm comfortable with the x-rays I took at 9months. I've just starting jumping Ripley now at 28months-no problems thanks for the info though... This is why I like the forum Pat Pat, the real issue with OFA, as you probably recall from back when, is that the x-ray positioning needs to be just so. So if someone is planning to send them in their best bet is to find a vet who takes them pretty regularly, often a breeder and/or performance vet, though not necessarily so. But it would be pretty aggravating to send them in and get them sent back as unreadable and have to redo them.  My vet's a breeder herself, and she has lots of breeders among her clients, so does them regularly. She's generally speaking a perfectionist anyway, but I can't help but wonder if she once had a set sent back, because she gets SO intense when we do them that you barely dare breathe till she's declared them acceptable  Kristine |
Donner's Mom wrote: Just my 10 cents Inflation! I love it! Emotions have run high across the board. Everyone must now do penance and say something short, sweet, nice and perhaps marginally useful...  I'll start: I am forever grateful for the day I met Belle. She changed my life and I am blessed to still have her with me at 13 1/2. Even if she does seem to think the rules no longer apply to her....  Oh, wait, there I go venturing into the negative.You're still perfect, Belle. If nothing else we all have one thing in common: we all love our dogs. Kristine |
| Kristine, I have a question for you. Teddy is only 6 months old so I have plenty of time before I need to worry about getting his hips x-rayed. Do you know of a good place to have this done in the Chicagoland area? I'm about 35 miles southwest of Chicago. You mentioned your vet is very good at this so if she knows of someone in my area that is also very good I would certainly appreciate the recommendation. Thanks, Cindy |
Mad Dog wrote: Emotions have run high across the board. Everyone must now do penance and say something short, sweet, nice and perhaps marginally useful... Penance?  I do enough of that crap at work where we ALL have to "stay in at recess" because my manager can't sit down the "problem child" and tell her. Anyway because I like the idea of saying something useful..... so here goes: Nobody (or dog) is perfect but we strive for the best for those we love so please keep your eyes wide open regarding your dog and possibly your breeders practices.....it is only to provide the best quality of life for all of this breed. Just because you have been "lucky" with your "wonderful" dog doesn't mean that the problem does not exist for other owners. Please be open minded. Now for my penance.....something (sorta) short, sweet and nice: Certain people on here with strong opinions (and you all know who you are because I have thanked you in person) have held my hand and guided me through things like agility and grooming and I proud to call you my friends. Even if you have rubbed some people the wrong way with your input, you have had a positive influence on at least one sheepdog owner and her impulse control challenged dog. I can't thank you enough. |
Mad Dog wrote: Donner's Mom wrote: Just my 10 cents Inflation! I love it! Kristine I know..I felt like I was running my mouth more than the basic 2 cents Speaking of old dogs like your baby we have Lulu who turned 14 a few months ago! No idea where she came from outside of where we rescued her from but, who cares They are our babies no matter what! |
| Well said Nita! Many people leave this forum or just read and not respond due to "strong" opinions or plain nasty gossip. There are bad breeders and good breeders. But we all love our dogs. I get annoyed when someone like Robin pretends to have knowledge she does not. Or when she gossips. She has many stories that are not well-known here and should be but people do not share them for many reasons They will come out. Many do know. |
Guest wrote: Well said Nita! Many people leave this forum or just read and not respond due to "strong" opinions or plain nasty gossip. There are bad breeders and good breeders. But we all love our dogs. I get annoyed when someone like Robin pretends to have knowledge she does not. Or when she gossips. She has many stories that are not well-known here and should be but people do not share them for many reasons They will come out. Many do know. It must feel good to be so brave and up front |
| Robin said she spayed the bitch who had the problems with a litter. Not exactly true. The bitch was mated again because robin did not believe the vets.she blamed them. Where are those pups, if any survived? Then the bitch was spayed. Vets in her area will not allow her in their offices due to scenes she has caused. There are pups adopted from robin that have been bred to unknown studs. Where are they? No contracts signed. It is good that she is researching and learning from other breeders now. |
| "Guest" is usually someone that is invited and welcomed. Honestly I don't see where you would be anyone that i would welcome with your lambasting of other people and your comments on this list. Quite frankly I have 'known' Robin for some years now. And I am proud of the way that she has stepped up to the plate and is doing all of the correct health testing and researching pedigrees. I know that she is constantly seeking information and knowledge. Obviously she is doing something right because there are other people (read big name breeder's) that are comfortable that she is doing the correct things and going down the correct paths. I know of many OESCA people that have not been honest in the health section of the breeder's health page, some that do not OFA or CERF and breed and breed and breed. But if you know who the dogs name is ANYONE can go into the OFFA.ORG page and type in the dogs name, the kennel name with an *, and you can see what dogs have been certified and which ones haven't.. and you should stop and say.......hmmmmmmmmmmm and this person wants to tell me what I can and cannot do with my dog??? PFT!!!! I know that I have stood behind my dogs be there here or in other homes. Sending money when i had it if they needed something. Genetics are a tricky thing. HD is a polygenetic gene and can skip generations, so can CA. Unless the testing is done, and the breeders are OPEN and HONEST about EVERYTHING we will continue to have issues pop up. I applaud any breeder that has sacrificed some litters for research. It is NOT the easiest thing to do and i would challenge anyone with a health issue to do that. Instead we have witch hunts in our breed. This breed will eventually die out because not everyone is honest. Guest when will you stop hiding behind 'guest' and quit attacking people? I've been on the receiving end before and it isn't exactly great. Who or WHAT makes you think your so much better that you don't have to give your name and can continue to bad mouth? Shame on you. SHAME. |
| Ali and Kathy I will respond to (Guest) and thank you because yes we do talk and I have learned so much from both of you amongst, others as well.Sharing knowledge is a good thing,I think. Yes (guest) my Ali was bred again because her blood test that was sent to Cornell came back as "inconclusive".With much advice the next breeding was a test and yes it is done within breeding, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and think you would not know this. There are 2 male pups from my Ali who are not affected with Hemophilia,both are neutered and there is 1,also neutered, who lives with a doctor that works at Chapel Hill U,this male pup is helping find a cure for Hemophilia,he is treated like your dog and my dog,he lives a normal life is well loved by the doc's children and does receive plasma when needed. (Guest) the controversy you are writing about at a vet's office was about, as you well know, (guest) was when these vet's kept filling this puppy's body with all of these different drugs, instead of getting to the bottom of what was truly wrong with him.They ruined his immune system,so yes I lost it,did you find something so wrong with that.I was trying to protect this puppy from any more harm.It took my vet that had never seen this puppy to suggest I think he has Von Willebrand disease and make an appointment with a specialist. (Guest) you write like these are all secrets,and I guess you have been busy telling all who would listen, when in fact many "important" people knew and Ali's pedigree was given so that this Hemophilia could be documented for the betterment of the breed. After this breeding I definitely had my answer and knew it was not "inconclusive" and Ali was spayed. I was going to stop breeding,because this experience was very heartbreaking,but people that have my puppies asked me to please keep breeding,we are going top want a puppy from you in the future. So with a lot of soul searching and many conversations with Lambluv I purchased my Bella. If I do breed her it will be because I want a puppy for myself, first and foremost.So please forgive me if I do research and ask a lot of questions.I have had people looking to buy a puppy send me pedigrees and ask if I know anything, instead of these people doing their own research,and good hearted, me helped them,so I thought. I have learned to not just take 2 dogs and hope for the best and yes I do have some knowledge about lines in pedigrees and not just diseases, such as hemophilia but also genetic issues such as megaesophagus,PRA,CA and more.Maybe I have become a tad too passionate.but I have always cared about health and temperament.Others can breed away knowing what is in their lines,I will not ever again knowingly breed a dog without the proper health tests performed nor without knowledge of what is in the pedigree.My new motto is you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. (Furry and four paws) I will answer you...as you can see this thread started in 09 and here it is 2011 and it has popped up after almost 2 years.This thread started about a different breeder but (guest) like she has did in other threads throughout this forum has made sure I was made to look like a bad person on several occasions.Sorry if you are mad or bitter about something. People on this forum believe these threads come up when certain breeders have puppies available or will have puppies available soon and use this forum as free advertising, as in if you google their name you will see this forum and it will lead you straight to these threads.Look around and read it looks like a pattern.So there is your answer (furry and four paws). (Guest),(furry and four paws) and Nita... is there anything else your inquiring minds want to know or need to know? Robin |
| Robin- I don't know you and I certainly don't have anything against you What I was responding to was what I considered a negative direction the thread was heading  I still forget to look when the initial post was  Yes I'm protective of my breeder, and will continue to be I've said this before sometimes people forget when they post- they are still talking to people. Things are said in a post that one wouldn't say to someone in person. Don't say something you wouldn't want said to you,(oh you must be a newbie- I would find this comment insulting-someone may be new to OES and be a CEO of a multibillion dollar company... understand where I'm going) Please post your dog's parents I want to reseach them- I've seen non show breeders totally and completely fried by people on this forum. If there are negative facts,state them. I hate the "royal we know" that is not fair. I'm sorry but I find alot of your comments offensive- you seem to get into alot of fights on this forum. I hadn't a clue what you were talking about so I asked. Sorry if you find this post insulting. But if you continue to make inflamitory comments people will fight with you  |
| Not making flaming posts towards anyone.I feel it is the other way around and I know why and I also know who has been gossiping and why. Like I have told you may I call you Pat?,I know your breeder and have had many conversations with her and you have every right to protect whom you want to protect. She is a very nice person and she and I have shared many personal conversations. My passion maybe has run a little high because of the experiences I have had breeding dogs that the bloodlines were not researched.That's all I care about anymore and always will. Within this research I have learned about bloodlines that should not be bred and again that's all I care about,that I do not make the mistakes I had made and if other people want to breed how they want to breed then let them. People can support who they want to support,but truly it takes time and yes it takes money with a ton of research and then even with all of that ammo disasters can happen.It is what you do with that disaster that matters. Have I called the bloodlines out that I know there is and has been disasters within litters,NO I have not.Is not my job to do this. As I have said other people have asked me to look over pedigrees and help them decide if they should buy a puppy from those bloodlines and I am not talking about strangers have asked but people I have considered friends. So your royal speaking is wrong and I could have and then yes you could then write about this royal attitude. As far as please post your dog's name...I asked because that person said all the testing had been done and passed,I was just going to go look and admire that fact.Do you see something wrong with that,if the tests were performed it is publicly displayed for all to see. The fights or disagreements are only coming from a select few and again I know who they are and why. You can take some of my posts inflammatory if you read into it the wrong way or you can take it as a gesture of help. I dunno but as I said my new motto is you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. Robin |
| I'm sooo sorry to step in the middle of this but can I ask a question for clarification as I've never heard of this before? When someone says a "breeder sacrifices a litter," what exactly does this mean? --> does it mean a dog w/ known disease is bread to a healthy dog to see if the puppies show signs of disease? (I don't understand the point of this.... as a dog with genetic illness shouldn't be bred, right?) --> does it mean there is an un-identifiable illness/sickness in the dog and you are hoping to find a way to identify it by the phenotype from the litter? (This kind of makes more sense....) --> If none of the puppies show any signs of the disease, then what can be concluded?? I'm assuming even if the puppies are healthy, they are all spayed/neutered.. (In any case.... it sounds like a heart breaking, devastating thing to do.... It must have been really sad Robin  ) |
| All I can say is what I experienced. My girl Ali had male pups without expressing the disease and then she had a couple of males that the vets could not tell me what was wrong with them,and this is when I did lose it one day at the vet's office. This one poor puppy was given many different types of drugs within a 3 week span.I did not know what the heck was going on at the time but to me after all of these drugs these vets still could not tell me what was wrong with him because none of the drugs helped the puppy at all. My normal vet I have been using for over 10 years finally told me what he thought was wrong with this puppy. Then there was the referral to a specialist from my normal vet,and finally the male puppy's blood and his dam's blood,the sire did not have to have his blood tested,hemophilia is only passed from the females, was sent to Cornell.His tests came back as having Hemophilia and his dam's,Ali, came back as inconclusive as a carrier of Hemophilia.So yes after all of the testing and research was exhausted I bred her again to see what I would get within her pups. All males is what I got and with Hemophilia like in humans the females are the carriers and the males express the disease. One male puppy does not have the disease,2 did pass from loss of blood and 1 is with a Dr.who works at Chapel Hill U and is doing research to find a cure for Hemophilia for humans and dogs. That was my experience and you are right it was very heartbreaking to see.I was not going to breed ever again,but I did find out these things do happen or can happen as heartbreaking as it is. I do hope the male puppy I gave to the Dr. at Chapel Hill can help find a cure for Hemophilia or play a part in finding a cure. Thank you for the nice words, Joanna21. Robin |
| I know that this is an old post but we bought our sweet girl Bailey from the Roberts back in 2012. They were helpful, forthcoming, stayed in touch for several years with us. We received Bailey at 8 weeks old. She saw our vet and he said she was one of the healthiest breeder pups he had ever seen. Bailey was healthy, her test results at our vet were the same as what we received from the Roberts. Her hips were in excellent condition and she had a healthy life. Bailey passed at almost 12 years old and lead a life filled with love and family. From the day we got her until the day she passed, she gave love, was calm, smart and a beautiful companion. FWIW, I found this post as we were searching to see if the Roberts were still breeding. When we got Bailey from Laurie and Mark, they had been breeding for 10+ years. Also, Bailey was our 3rd OES, the 1st a rescue, the second from a DE breeded and then the Roberts. She was an amazing girl. |
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