Help, We have a dog that bites
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Just a thought...have you had a vet check to make sure there isnt a physical reason? Since this sounds like it happens when he's being touched, it makes me wonder if maybe there is something that hurts.  |
| Have you tried contacting your breeder to see if there is anything you need to be made aware of???? |
| This doesn't sound like normal behavior. I think I recognize when he stops panting as his "warning" before he snaps, but of course I have no idea why he is doing this.
Neutering certainly might help. I would definitely see the vet to rule out other physical issues. Now, as far as training goes, since he listens to the trainer and not to you, I assume this means that he does not see you as the authority figure in his life. I suggest that you look at all of the following pages: http://forum.oes.org/viewtopic.php?p=185640#185576 http://www.oes.org/page2/13779~Did_he_a ... today.html http://www.oes.org/page2/4821~Please_he ... crazy.html http://www.oes.org/page2/13992~NILF_-_N ... _Free.html |
| If the trainer tried to stroke/pet him (which they probably don't do) does he react in the same way?
If not then, more than likely an authority issue. How do you manage the situation when he bites? But for the safety of your 4 year old I think they need to be kept apart in the first instance. How much exercise does he get? |
| You noted that he's been unpredictable since you got him, which begs the question: how old was he when you got him and how was he raised?
Does he pant a lot? Panting can be a sign of stress or pain. Mine rarely pant unless they've just engaged in strenuous physical exercise or it's really hot. By 8 months old severely bad hips would quite likely be evident. Beyond that there aren't a lot of physical causes that would account for the behavior at his age, and hips are less likely if he's been doing it since he was 8, 12, 14 weeks old? Frankly, it's not normal to have these kinds of "authority" issues in an OES this young. True dominance aggression in OES is very rare. There used to be a number of bad tempered dogs produced, but that has almost been eradicated in the show lines in the US at least. Even in the more casually bred population you see it much less than you did even ten, let alone twenty or thirty years ago. Fear based aggression is (still) much more common and the panting makes me wonder, though the soliciting petting and then snapping is sort of a classic dominant dog move if no pain is involved. It's impossible for us to guess. Please do notify the breeder. And if there are no apparent physical issues, then perhaps consider working with a behaviorist to see if you can turn him around or at least make him managable. And, yes, please do keep him away from your four year old. Kristine |
| we got him when he was about 4months old. and yes he pants all day everyday... and when we take him out to run he only lasts about ten minutes and then he can go anymore. |
| I'd talk this over with your vet right away. He shouldn't be panting all the time, and ten minutes of exercise tolerance is not much for an eight month old dog.
I'd bet there's something physically going on here. If not, the vet may still be a good source of advice with the biting. I'd ask for a pretty thorough check out (physical, blood work, x rays). Our Theeps had his first surgery at the age of six months. Intermittent limping was caused by a free floating piece of broken cartilage in his knee. It's rare in a young pup, but clearly not unheard of. He wasn't aggressive unless you poked around that back leg, and then it was only a warning growl and an air snap, but at six months it was his way of protecting a painful part. He needed other interventions down the road, but that early operation bought him several pain free years. I know your problem doesn't sound like a bad knee issue, but my point is that they do guard when they're in pain. It doesn't make them bad dogs. They just need help. Have you talked this over with your vet lately? |
Quote: and yes he pants all day everyday... and when we take him out to run he only lasts about ten minutes and then he can go anymore. Panting can be a sign the dog is simply hot but it can also be a sign of pain. The exercise intolerance is also a concern if it also occurs on cool days. I agree with Tracie. The first thing I would do is get him checked out by a vet to rule out any medical problem causing his behavior issues. I would bring along a list that outlines all the behaviors observed. Especially the panting and exercise thing... the biting when being pet. I'd want to rule out a neck/back problem too. Quote: we have taken him to a trainer and will listen pretty well but not to us... we love him so much but someone is really going to get hurt he just turns from a great dog to mean to fast for know apparent reason What does the trainer say about him not minding you but minding the trainer? Is it possible for a humane trainer, or better yet a behaviorist, to take the pup for the day or two to evaluate him? I'm not a professional trainer or anything but I think you're at a critical time where you need find a solution to this challenge because he's only going to get bigger and more powerful. Quote: we have a 4 year old and he has tried to bite her in the face as well and she is just petting him.
I wouldn't give up on this pup (meaning euthanasia) before exhausting all options but you also must take steps to protect your child. You are responsible for her safety. I would not allow your child to interact with this boy. Have you spoken with his breeder? |
Anonymous wrote: we got him when he was about 4months old. and yes he pants all day everyday... and when we take him out to run he only lasts about ten minutes and then he can go anymore.
Though it wouldn't account for pain (or biting/snapping), please ask your vet to check his heart. Most regular vets can easily miss a mild murmur, but then most mild murmurs wouldn't cause the level of exercise intolerance you described. If by chance they hear something suspicious, depending on the degree they may suggest a chest x-ray. Anything beyond that, you generally need to see a board cert. cardiologist (they can refer you). I don't think it's likely, but the breed is prone to some heart problems so it wouldn't hurt to strike that off your list of possibles. A basic preliminary check is just your vet listening to his heart, which most vets do as a matter of course when they see a dog anyway. Kristine |
| My dog once snapped at me when I went to put his collar on to go for a walk...Found out he had a massive ear infection in both ears and was in terrible pain.
Panting is a sign of pain. A vet check is definately in order. And quickly. hate to see a dog in pain and hate to see someone get hurt because of it. Please go as soon as you can. |
| As others have mentioned the panting and exercise intolerance sounds like heart problems, but I don't understand the biting. |
Willowsprite wrote: As others have mentioned the panting and exercise intolerance sounds like heart problems, but I don't understand the biting.
Maybe just very tired and unwell due to heart prob so feeling cranky????  |
Kristine could it be a Thyroid imbalance at that age? exercise intolerence and unexpected aggression is listed with inbalance of the thyroid. Even might be having a mild seizure to cause him to snap unexpectably  .
Most important get a full vet check and see where you go from there to rule out medical problems firstly, a full blood panel would be a good start as well as checking the heart. Cardio Myopathy(sp) is listed in OES and can cause exercise intolerance due to a heart problem. With your four year old definately 100% supervision around the dog till you can work out why he is this way. If all checks out OK medically then even think of using a soft muzzle to ensure he does not snap and work with a gentle trainer/behaviourist if you can. Would be worth while around your 4 year old too muzzle him around her till it is all sorted out and you have trust in him again. I would not risk one kid maybe getting bit at the moment, so better safe for the whole family for now then sorry later on.  |
| ^^^^^^^
Good point! You just reminded me thyroid problems often lead to heart problems that resolve once you sort out the thyroid imbalance. |
Ashley wrote: My dog once snapped at me when I went to put his collar on to go for a walk...Found out he had a massive ear infection in both ears and was in terrible pain.
Panting is a sign of pain. A vet check is definately in order. And quickly. hate to see a dog in pain and hate to see someone get hurt because of it. Please go as soon as you can. Exactly what I was going to say. Definately have your vet check his ears! I am sorry you are going through this, but thank you for caring enough to post on this forum about it! We wish you great success. |
Mim wrote: ^^^^^^^
Good point! You just reminded me thyroid problems often lead to heart problems that resolve once you sort out the thyroid imbalance. Lisa, Mim - I thought about the thyroid connection - you're both spot on with the symptoms, but, Lisa, yeah, his age makes me wonder too. I don't even bother testing my guys for thyroid function till they're 2-3. I know onset can be earlier than that, roughly around sexual maturity?, so perhaps as young as a year -- maybe even less (Kerry?) But for an 8 month old to already (potentially) have those severe symptoms at such an early age? I guess my next question is how early was he neutered, if he is neutered. We know there's greater risk of hypothyroidism in dogs that have been desexed, especially at a young age. Could it also speed up the degeneration of thyroid function? I can't think of any research that's looked into that so that may be a moot question. All a moot point if he's cheerfully sporting his testicles of course
Mim - I spoke to a cardiologist at the vet school here in Madison a few years back and she told me they had a middle-aged OES involved in one of their studies for cardiomyopathy who was hypothyroid and whose symptoms were largely arrested and some of the damage undone when put on thyroid meds. But though he apparently went on to outlive all of the other dogs in the study the meds couldn't undo all damage. I guess the unrelated moral of that story is that if someone has an OES diagnosed with cardiomyopathy get the dog's thyroid checked ASAP because I do think it's an issue of the faster you catch it, the better the prognosis. Sorry about the digression  I lost my first (BYB) OES to cardiomyopathy when she was barely 11. Looking back I should have seen the signs much earlier and I also think that she could very well have been hypothyroid and we missed it. She was always a slug, and a rather nasty tempered one at that. The first signs that her heart was failing was severe exercise intolerance and excessive panting. But then she was going on eleven. Cardiomyopathy in an 8 mos old in this breed? Not terribly likely. Valve problems and such, more possible. But again, panting can be a sign of many things and exercise intolerance can easily be related to orthopedic issues as well.
I keep coming back to his age. Unpredictable since the age of 4 mos old at least? That just leaves me with so many more questions that answers 
Fingers crossed that it's something simple and usually easily fixable like a chronic ear infection. Kristine |
| Guest...
Can you tell us the area you live in so maybe somebody can suggest a trainer that has experience with behavioral issues? |
| yeah I live in schererville indiana |
| and yes he is neutered he was neutered at about 5 months the vet said to get him done asap so thats what we did...and we took him to the vet about 4days ago and they did find a pretty bad ear infection in both ears.and we asked about he biting and he really didnt even take time to chack him out all he said was he thought it to be a rage disorder but again never checked for anything else. So I guess I need to find a new vet. and I am and have been worried about the panting for quite sometime that and the fact that he can only last ten minutes outside even in winter we would tak him to run and same result. from march when we got him to now all he does is pant even in his sleep. |
| I hope the biting and the panting go away when his ear infection clears up. . . I know when I had an ear infection, it was blindingly painful. |
| Ear infections are extremely painfull, also do seek a better vet and have all checked out, to rule out medical issues and see where you go from there.
Did he come from a reputable breeder? If so then look to them for advice also as to what is happening at the moment and from 4 months old onwards. I worry about your 4 year old with the way he is. Please register for the forum too, it's free and easy to register. 
Kristine I did question the age and thyroid but who knows till a vet checks out everything firstly. Something is just not right & normal with an 8 month old dog Lets hope something can be found to explain the way he is.  |
Anonymous wrote: and yes he is neutered he was neutered at about 5 months the vet said to get him done asap so thats what we did...and we took him to the vet about 4days ago and they did find a pretty bad ear infection in both ears.and we asked about he biting and he really didnt even take time to chack him out all he said was he thought it to be a rage disorder but again never checked for anything else. So I guess I need to find a new vet.
YIKES! That's a pretty casual, off the cuff remark from a vet considering the seriousness of Rage Syndrome. Rage has purportedly occurred in OES, but it's extremely rare. It's hard to diagnose in any event. More typically even in the breeds that are "known" for the disorder (springers & cockers) some of the incidents attributed to rage were probably displays of dominance aggression. I'd be looking for a new vet too. Hopefully when his ears clear up that will help with the biting. 
Kristine |
Mad Dog wrote: Mim wrote: ^^^^^^^ Good point! You just reminded me thyroid problems often lead to heart problems that resolve once you sort out the thyroid imbalance. Lisa, Mim - I thought about the thyroid connection - you're both spot on with the symptoms, but, Lisa, yeah, his age makes me wonder too. I don't even bother testing my guys for thyroid function till they're 2-3. I know onset can be earlier than that, roughly around sexual maturity?, so perhaps as young as a year -- maybe even less (Kerry?) But for an 8 month old to already (potentially) have those severe symptoms at such an early age? Morgan was diagnosed through a blood test when he was less than two, actually 15 months I think. Thinking back I should have had him tested even earlier. Of course being my dog he is a little off on his symptoms - he has no temperment issues, he doesn't like the heat at all (most hypothyroid dogs can't stand the cold) and has never had the stamina of Marley - which is why we had him tested. He does pant up a storm though - maybe we should have some cadio testing, maybe they'll give us a rate when have the Newf done Kristine |
Anonymous wrote: yeah I live in schererville indiana
You may want to check out Purdue University's Animal Behavior Clinic: http://www.vet.purdue.edu/animalbehavior/ There should be lots of resources in Chicago that I'm not familiar with. We have a lot of members from the Chicago area that may be able to help. Please do join the forum and keep us posted. Nita Midwest OES Rescue - Indiana |
| Oooh... ear infections can be extremely painful. Getting near the ears can surely provoke a bite if the dog is suffering. I would think this could be a possible cause for the biting if the ear infection has been going on for a while. So the first thing is to get the ear pain/infection under control. If I was going to pet him in the meantime, I would stroke under the chin rather than the top of the head. Some dogs can be head-shy or become so if they have sore ears.
Quote: he really didnt even take time to chack him out all he said was he thought it to be a rage disorder
My opinion, this guess about rage syndrome was a copout unless this vet has a lot of experience with this dog. Please consider seeking a new vet... it's unfair and unprofessional to simply throw a dog into a "rage" category without eliminating all other possibilities. A quick exam and a "diagnosis" of rage can unfairly end a dog's life. If you have no idea what vet in your area is going to be good, consider contacting a shelter, rescue, kennel club in your area and get some recommendations on who will give the best physical exam. Call and ask if the exam will be thorough meaning ears, eyes, mouth, lungs/heart, whatever they call the leg extensions where they check for hip problems, belly, etc. Don't hold back when voicing your concerns or requesting certain things be checked. You are the only one who knows your dog so you are the only on one who can speak for him. Please, please... keep us posted? We want you to be able to work this out or find someone who can help. |
| If he had a bad ear infection a few months ago, even if you finished the drugs it might still be there. Sometimes it takes a few doese to clear. also, the vet might want to do a culture on his ears. My dog just got cultured for an ear infection that would not go away and it ended up being the MRSA virus in his ears. Multi resistant staph infection. He was pretty sick. Although he would run and play a few minutes and then get extremely tired...If we went near his ears or head, he would growl. Highly unusual.
If the ear infection is bad, he could also be suffering from a loss of equilibrium causing him to get dizzy which might scare him enough to snap at someone. A Vet visit, to another vet, is definately in order. Perhaps someone here on the forum lives nearby and can recommend a vet? Good luck. |
| A caring vet wouldn't make a snap judgement on the "rage" issue. Some vets do tend to classify certain breeds depending on what their clientele brings them. But they should still never just throw out a generalized statement like that. Check with other sources for another vet & make an appt. now so you aren't making an appt. when the dog is really very ill. Let the vet know the medical history of the dog including any meds it is on now and the family environment. They will have suggestions. |
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