opinions about Lucky's pedigree?
Any input is greatly appreciated...we really don't know a thing about this. Quote: I ordered a 4 generation pedigree on Sampson (Lucky's father)if you want a copy I can send it when I get it. He has 59 Championship Blood lines back to England and Sweden dating from the early 60's. Sampsons GG Grandfather Will'm Shakesfur 23 AKC Championship bloodlines in Lucky from each parent, in usa, canada, united kingdom, sweden. |
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| Pedigrees can tell you somethings, but not everything. Depending on who you got him from, you would expect champions in the background. If I read it right she is talking about the puppies father's pedigree - which is only part of the story. You really want the puppies pedigree, which you can and should get when you register him in AKC. Researching what that pedigree means can be great fun- and also frustrating - as you try to find out all you can about the dogs in your guys ancestry.
Kristine (Mad Dog) has a great pedigree site where you can research many of the dogs in your puppies blood lines http://www.furcertain.com |
| Breeding and pedigree stuff is a huge subject. It sounds like you're interested in learning how it all works? There are quite a few people on here that explain the science of breeding and pedigrees very well so I'm sure one of them will pipe up with more info but, just some basic info:
A reputable breeder will always provide you with at least a four generation pedigree and, usually, most, if not all should be champions within just that 4 generation pedigree. Sometimes all dogs don't get shown to championship for special reasons but the breeder wants to keep those qualities in their breeding program so they are bred despite not finishing their championships. If you take any OES's pedigree, whether they're from a reputable or backyard breeder back to the 60s it's pretty normal to have a lot of champions since OES all derive from a certain gene pool and branched out from there. More important than the pedigree, is how the breeder uses what they've learned from it to better the health, temperament and all around soundness of his or her dogs. Even a good pedigree doesn't necessarily mean that a dog is worthy of showing or breeding. Every litter even from the top breeders in the world has dogs that they know will be better specimens of the breed than others. It doesn't make them bad dogs, some are just better representations of the breed than others and those are the ones that are shown and bred. It's kind of just like how I'm better looking than my sister even though we have the same parents.  |
Quote: It's kind of just like how I'm better looking than my sister even though we have the same parents .
ha ha ha I get it!! That is funny though.... ok so if I take the numbers from Luckys parents and grandparents, that would show his pedigree? We have no interest at all in breeding or showing...just wanted a family pet. And truly he is probably the best pup I've ever had...mellow, smart and gentle..love him. When I got the email, it made me think of some of the posts I've read on this forum about how any OES that costs less than a certain amount of money probably isn't good and to be careful of health issues etc. If I look up the numbers from his parents & grandparents, what exactly am I looking for to be certain he is a healthy dog etc? The breeder seems nice enough and is always available for questions etc. He likes to stay in touch and likes updated pictures of Lucky. I have his phone & cell phone along with email in case I ever have questions and to just stay in touch. He even drove 5 hours each way to take him to a different airport so Lucky would have a direct flight and not have a stop over. I never even heard of back yard breeders and all the horror stories I've read here......I hope Lucky is ok  |
| If you have the registration numbers for his parents and grand parents etc, you can look them up by that (or name, but reg # is faster) at www.offa.org (OFA)
If their name pops up, there should be a screen that lists what health screening was done and submitted, plus any known relatives will also have reported health testing results listed there, etc. Fascinating stuff! If you haven't registered Lucky with the AKC yet, I'd encourage you to do so. What if you decide you want to compete with him in obedience or rally or agility some day? If you wait too long the cost to register him goes up QUITE a bit. By the way, the Will'm Shakesfur dog, does he have a kennel name? Tanglewools perhaps? Do you have Lucky's dam's pedigree as well? You can go to the furcertain site Kerry mentioned and upload pedigrees. Always greatly appreciated. So what is his registered name going to be? Does his breeder have a kennel name?
Kristine |
| Hmmm I don't know if the Will'm shakesfur dog has a kennel name. How do I find that out?
I did already register Lucky...His name is Sir Lucky Charm (my kids picked that one
Luckys parents are Sampson the Great & Lovey Diamond Girl The name of the kennel he came from is: Victoria's Angel's. I really really like the breeder...He is a great guy and seems to genuinely care for his puppies. Oh they also mentioned they will be featured as the sole representation of the English Sheep Dog breed for the year 2009 in the August edition of Dog World Magazine. I'd like to get a copy...not sure where to get one. Edited to add: Thank you so much for the links... I typed in the numbers for the health issues and thier names came up and the finds were either "good" or "normal"....I went through all 12 of them!!! I'm glad Luckys parents and Grandparents had these tests done...that's got to be good right?? I went to the furcertain site and none of them showed up except Duke Blue of West Wind....Lucky's GG.... |
| Sorry, I don't know what Dog World is, but if you google it I bet you can find something.
Cute name, by the way! Based on the info you posted I'm able to create (below): I was hoping his parents or maybe some of his parents' parents would be in my working database so I could build you a fuller pedigree, but no such luck. If the breeder sent you an actual pedigree <?> the Shakesfur dog would show up with his full registration name which includes his kennel name, that's typically how show dogs are registered. If you don't have a full pedigree and you're interested you can always take Lucky's registration number, go to www.akc.org, go to Shop and order a 4 or 5 generation pedigree for him. You can get an online research one which is really all you need, but anyway: Pedigree of: Sir Lucky Charm DN24281603 Date of Birth: 4/12/2009 Colour & Markings: Owner: +-- +-- | +-- +--Carol's Oliver Holmes DN11151305 | | +-- | +-- | +-- +--Sampson The Great DN020604407 | | +-- | | +-- | | | +-- | +--Bedazzeling Lucy DN05586904 | | +-- | +-- | +-- +--Sir Lucky Charm DN24281603 | +-- | +-- | | +-- | +-- | | | +-- | | +-- | | +-- +--Lovely Diamond Girl DN20688204 | +-- | +-- | | +-- +-- | +-- +-- +-- I ran both of his parents through the OFA database and drew a blank on his dam, though interestingly his sire was apparently DNA tested for degenerative myelopathy last month (normal). Not something I've ever seen done with an OES before. Anyway, unfortunately neither parent has hip clearances on record since they have to be two to get their clearances, perhaps something the breeder intends to rectify when they're old enough. Maybe he did preliminary x-rays or something. Did you get any health info on the parents? Kristine |
| wow, thanks so much Kristine! I ran Lovey's (Lucky's mother) sire..I think and he had the hip test done and it was normal.
maybe once they turn 2 the breeder will have the tests done on Lucky's parents. Are you familiar with the kennel he came from? |
Cathy227 wrote: Edited to add: Thank you so much for the links... I typed in the numbers for the health issues and thier names came up and the finds were either "good" or "normal"....I went through all 12 of them!!! I'm glad Luckys parents and Grandparents had these tests done...that's got to be good right??
I went to the furcertain site and none of them showed up except Duke Blue of West Wind....Lucky's GG.... Missed that edit. So you have a 2-3 generation pedigree? Perhaps I have the wrong Sampson the Great (though AKC is pretty careful about not duplicating names )The one with AKC reg # DN20604407? His parents don't have any OFA numbers and he has one only for DM, which is not something we customarily test for in OES, so that's interesting.
His dam is not in the OFA database either if her reg # is DN20688204? Lovey Diamond Girl per AKC? Are we looking at the same pedigree?  
Who do you have for Sampson the Great's parents and Lovey Diamond Girl's parents? Thanks! Kristine |
| yes that's them...Lovey Diamond Girl's Sire should be Brenda's Shaggy Prince Buddy Boy...he had the hip test done and Lucky's father Sampson the Great had the test done that you are talking about. When it said "normal" I just assumed it was the hip test. I didn't realize it was a DNA test and isn't commonly done with OES, so I guess it's may not be so great it was done...not sure what to think about that. What's strange is Sampsons grandfather is Duke Blue of West Wind and on this certificate it has his registration number and also a DNA# Maybe that has something to do with Sampson having that DNA test done? Weird.
I have Sampsons parents as: Carol's Oliver Holmes & Carol's Dazzeling Lucy. Lovey's parents are Brendas Shaggy Prince Boy & Brendas Shaggy Trixie Ann. I don't really understand what all these names (pedigree) mean though. Does it just mean that all have been registered with AKC? |
Cathy227 wrote: Are you familiar with the kennel he came from?
Victoria's Angels? Sorry, no. It's customary for a kennel to register dogs with their kennel name. Like Tanglewools Will'm Skakesfur, with Tanglewool being the kennel name. That's because they're proud of that they breed and they want the dogs to be easily recognizable as a say "Bahlamb's dog" or a "Lambluv dog" or whatever With this in mind, Lucky should rightfully be Victoria's Angels Sir Lucky Charm. The AKC limits the numbers of letters you can use, but I think that would have worked
Kristine |
| geez.....I wish I would have found this forum before getting Lucky. I had no idea about any of this!! I was just looking for a lovable family pet. Oh well......
He is really unique though. On his jet black back is a great big white marking in the shape of a horse shoe!! Hence the name Lucky  |
Cathy227 wrote: yes that's them...Lovey Diamond Girl's Sire should be Brenda's Shaggy Prince Buddy Boy...he had the hip test done and Lucky's father Sampson the Great had the test done that you are talking about. When it said "normal" I just assumed it was the hip test. I didn't realize it was a DNA test and isn't commonly done with OES, so I guess it's may not be so great it was done...not sure what to think about that. What's strange is Sampsons grandfather is Duke Blue of West Wind and on this certificate it has his registration number and also a DNA# Maybe that has something to do with Sampson having that DNA test done? Weird.
I have Sampsons parents as: Carol's Oliver Holmes & Carol's Dazzeling Lucy. Lovey's parents are Brendas Shaggy Prince Boy & Brendas Shaggy Trixie Ann. I don't really understand what all these names (pedigree) mean though. Does it just mean that all have been registered with AKC? Basically, yes. But the important numbers are the corresponding ones you find on the OFA site. If somebody doesn't beat me to it, I'll explain when I get back from herding. And thanks for the additional pedigree info! I've added Lucky to the database and am working on expanding his pedigree. It probably won't be online right away (updated), but shortly. Off to play with sheep! Belle is off to play with sheep, I mean. Not me. I don't play with sheep 
Fall flat on my derriere over goats, yes, you betcha!
Later. Kristine |
Cathy227 wrote: geez.....I wish I would have found this forum before getting Lucky. I had no idea about any of this!! I was just looking for a lovable family pet. Oh well......
He is really unique though. On his jet black back is a great big white marking in the shape of a horse shoe!! Hence the name Lucky None of this makes him a bad dog. It's just information. The more you know....it does help. Few of us knew any of this stuff before we got our first OES. None of us to date loved them any less. 
I still say he's aptly named. He found you, right?
KB |
| Yes, he found us. We were actually going to go with a breeder that lives locally to us. She seemed extremely knowledgeable and seemed to have super great dogs. We decided not to go with an OES because we go to Orlando and the east coast a lot and didn't want to board the dog. Mom dog sits our little Bichon, but wasn't thrilled about a huge OES. We put the whole thing on hold. When I was talking to a girlfriend about OES, she purchased (Lucky) and then found out there are deed restrictions in her developement and couldn't have large breed dogs.
Well the first OES we were going to get was born on the 13th...my lucky number and I figured I'd name him Lucky. The current Lucky was born on Easter Sunday with a horseshoe on his back and the breeder named him Lucky.......we decided to take him. It turns out we stay at the Residence Inn suites when we travel...they are 2 bedroom apartments and they take dogs!!!! For $75.00 it turns out Lucky comes with us whether we stay a day, month or year!! I was really upset at first about not taking the puppy from the breeder here...she seemed awesome and I learned a lot from her. Raw diet and lots of other stuff. I bet her dogs are absolutely beautiful. Oh well.....it turns out we really love Lucky and there couldn't be a better fit!! |
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