Baby and OES relationship- Help!
We have a 6 month old baby, and a 1.5 year old OES named Sunny. So far they've sort of lived separately, as we've been a bit leery of Sunny stepping on or french kissing the baby. Sunny is very obedient, and doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body. But, she can sure get excited at times, and whether excited or not, she steps on our feet all the time. For those reasons, we put a baby gate up to separate them when we put the baby on a playmat on the floor. And we don't really like the idea of the baby eating doggie drool, so we haven't really let Sunny get kissably close too often. And there's always the fact that Sunny's an animal and no matter how unaggressive she is, animals can always surprise us and shouldn't be left alone with a baby. But that being said, these two have to live and thrive together! So now that the baby is getting close to crawling and is old enough to handle more germs, I'm confused as to how to transition the babe/pooch relationship to one of buddies instead of roommates. I guess what I want is for them to play together and to like one another, with making sure they're both safe. The baby already loves Sunny, she laughs at anything Sunny does; but Sunny is showing a wariness of the baby (probably because she's been told so many time to leave her alone-oops) Any suggestions from anyone who's dealt with this baby/dog relationship before? |
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I don't have any advice, but I wanted to say what a great avatar picture you have - it really made me smile  |
| I raised three kids with three large dogs.
But I did the opposite of what you've done. While I nursed the babies, the dogs were at my feet or had a head on my lap. They quickly learned "gentle" or "soft." When the babies were laying on their blankets, the dogs were laying next to me or to the blanket. They learned not to step on the blanket. Dog kisses were encouraged. There are many studies out linking childhood allergies with a too clean environment - no wonder my kids are so healthy.  I remember my son discovering that Gravy Train actually makes gravy in your mouth - yuck!
When the kids sat in the highchair, they would drop dog cookies or toys for the dogs. As soon as they were old enough, I had them set the dog food bowl down. When you read to your child, have Sunny sit next to you. Teach your child to gently pet Sunny. There are going to be times that Sunny will bump into your child, knocking him or her down. Accidents happen and don't panic over it. Your child and Sunny will learn to watch out for each other. |
Mom of 3 wrote: I raised three kids with three large dogs.
But I did the opposite of what you've done. Very good advice. This is the same advice we give to people with our dogs that have children later on. I have one here in town that had a baby girl added to the family when she was over 2 years old. The dog had been around children but not living with little ones in their own house. We told them to let the dog come close, sniff & lick the baby when they first brought it home. This way the dog understands the baby belongs to everyone. I marvel at how wonderful this dog is with her little girl who is now over a year old & toddling around. I've seen her be very agile running past the baby & also get very excited when I show up & bump the baby & "plop" down goes baby! Baby learns how to drop down & dog immediately goes over & checks on the baby. I've also seen the baby decide it was time to stand up & the dog was the closest thing to grab onto to stand! The dog is very patient & lets the baby grab her hair to gain leverage to stand. Keep in mind tho' that these parents are also teaching the little one what is proper in treatment of the dog at the same time as teaching the dog the same about the baby. |
| I agree w/mom of 3. As someone who just raised an OES w/infant and currently raising an OES puppy with toddler... I think you're at a disadvantage with separating them so much when your lo was an "infant."
I always nursed with the dog ....as exactly described right there with head on my lap. That way you can knock the dog and push him down every time they have those hyper moments. Your adjustment should be just fine. Dogs to a degree know when something is fragile by YOUR reaction to it. I also fully agree that even though everyone (mine sure was) fears their lo getting trampled by the dog or in my case... pushed to the ground with head slamming into tile .........you quickly learn, your toddler who is not as fragile anymore (or maybe not as fragile as you think) will be FINE. Then again, I'm a parent who doesn't flinch when my lo is screaming from a fall unless there's blood or they're not moving. I just tell them you'll be fine, stay where I am, and carry on my business. Besides I ain't raising wimpy boys 
So I guess I'm saying pull the gates down, and just deal with the huge headache (which is what mine was at times ...lol) of having to scream to the big dog to be CAREFUL while teaching your lo not to grab onto the dog inappropriately. As long as our adult dog wasn't growling, our second kid learned to walk by grabbing onto the dog to pull himself up. We just never allowed him to step or crawl on him b/c we didn't think it was fair. |
| This brings back memories! We had our first sheepie a little over 2 years before our son was born. Buford was a rescue that we got at 11 mos old, and he came from a home with 3 kids that were not taught not to torture the dog, so I was pretty scared of what his reaction to our new baby would be. When we brought Spencer home and put him in his crib, I called Buford up to his room, lifted the bumpers a bit so he could see the baby, and said, "Look what mommy brought home!" He licked Spencer's head and from that moment on, he was his protector. Took Sarah under his wing too when she was born 4 years later. Wherever the kids were, that's where Buey was. They grew up adoring him, and most importantly, they learned how to behave towards/with animals.
Good luck! It can be done - just takes patience and supervision. |
| I did the same as Mom of 3 and others above.
At the time of our preemie twins birth (now 25 yr old!), I laid the girls on a quilt on the floor and had the dogs each come sniff and check the babies out. Each got a turn, all by themselves. At the time, the 2 dogs we had were Jenny, my German Shepherd, and Daisey, our basset. No issues, no problems. Over the years, we always had 2-6 dogs as the kids were growing up. I am a dog lover, trainer and met hubby at training classes - so having multiple dogs is our life. 
My grandkids have grown up with our dogs, as well as their OES's. The kids are used to being kissed, and if they don't want it, they tell the dogs "no". The babies say no their own way! Of course they are supervised, and if they are being pesty with kissing they are told to stop. Yes, they have gotten knocked over as the dogs go by, but they seem to not care. Even little Will, now a year, never cries when he gets bumped over. He just gets up and keeps moving. |
| I have a 13 month old, so I'm right in there with new walker-doggie relations.
We've pretty much let Barney be around Taylor without too much intervention. Aside from the very beginning when her crying sort of bothered him (can you blame him?!), he hasn't paid too much attention to her. She loves him, though. He makes her giggle. He camps out at her high chair during meals. When she was first learning to stand she'd use him to pull up and she would lay back and use him as a pillow (All this VERY carefully monitored). He was great with all that. I've been meaning to ask this, though, so I'll ask in this thread... Barney has bad hips. A few weeks ago Taylor was walking and, being a new walker, is unsteady and she plopped down on Barney's hips. He growled and turned his head toward her (not snapped, but it looked like it). Then a week or so later the same thing happened but he snapped too. What should I do? I know it's because she's landing on a sensitive area of him, but now I basically have to follow behind her every second when she's near the dog to make sure she doesn't plop down accidentally on him. It's stressing me out, really. Any suggestions? I don't want to have to follow her so closely because I want her to be able to explore the house without me being an inch behind her, and I don't want to separate Barns either... |
| For Taylor and Barn's sake, I would probably keep the contact more limited as she learns to get her balance.
Taylor can learn that Barney's hips hurt(yes, even at her age) and she needs to leave them alone. Encourage Barney to stay in certain safe locations, Taylor-proofed, as she wanders around without you. When they are together, with you, start encouraging the correct behavior from both of them. Teach Taylor to approach Barney from the front or side, not the back, in order to limit the possibility her putting pressure on his hips, for instance. |
| Our children are now 26 and 22. When our first was born we had two sheepies and they had been our 'children' until Alison was born. When we brought her home we put her on the floor on a nice blanket and let Duffy and Sherman totally inspect her sniff her and kiss her. They were gentle and sweet--from that moment on she belonged to them and they were her keepers. We were careful to watch at first but soon learned that they new how to behave and how to look after her. They were always near when she was awake and most often slept beside her crib or at her door. They absolutely felt it was their duty to sit by her high chair and 'clean' up as she ate when she grew to that point. They loved her droppings!!
I never really kept them apart she did get her share of soft kisses sometimes in the face--but I never really worried about that. Both were gone when Justin was born but he was soon introduced to the new 'puppy' and we had to really watch HIM and make sure the puppy was ok. I guess I just felt that I knew them well enough to trust that they were going to accept the children and they did. |
| Thanks everyone for the great advice! I've already started letting Sunny lick the baby now! It's already made a big difference, Sunny loves the baby now, so I'm excited- I think they're going to be great friends now
Yeah, I sort of thought I was being overly protective, I guess I just needed encouragement and permission to loosen up Keep the advice coming, I'm learning a lot!
Something I'm also concerned about is that Sunny paws randomly at stuff (or just the air sometimes). And it seems like she does it more around the baby. I've gotten scratched really badly at times. We've tried to get her to stop, but with minimal success. So that's what I'm most worried about, that even with close supervision, in the blink of an eye, the baby might get seriously hurt from Sunny's exuberant pawing. We keep her claws short, and filed, so it's more how hard she paws that does the damage. Any advice on that? Thanks again, I'm getting more hands on and practical advice from your responses than I have from all the dog training books in our local library combined! |
You can try to prevent the paw by stopping it in the middle of the air, which is what I do, but thankfully .....the dog won't be going to the baby asking for food or to go potty, so the owners have a better chance than the baby to get pawed from my experience. Great huh? 
Now we've had many paws going straight at our baby, but thankfully our dogs aren't the most coordinated so haven't hit him and when they do, it's realllllllllllllllllly no biggie. The dog (just the pup b/c any time our adult oes does it, she REALLLY didn't mean to and it was very light and unharmful) gets thrown in the crate for a few secs, maybe even screamed at a bit
With that said, it may (is bound to) happen, and truthfully... you'll probably just deal with a crying baby, worse a scratch, even worse blood from the scratch ...which will heal. I had to have several people tell me that a LOT with my first because I was also worried. Now, I get it, and just continue to tell myself if they aren't going to die from it, they'll be fine because if not, I'll be stressing over something I can't control ...and don't we all have enough on our plates? Sometimes I get mad at my pup for pawing me b/c he's left a huge mark on me and it hurt like major hell, but then I feel bad because he was just trying to be nice to me and get my attn (usually to pet him more or for me to hug him b/c he's very affectionate). |
barney1 wrote: Barney has bad hips. A few weeks ago Taylor was walking and, being a new walker, is unsteady and she plopped down on Barney's hips. He growled and turned his head toward her (not snapped, but it looked like it). Then a week or so later the same thing happened but he snapped too.
What should I do? I know it's because she's landing on a sensitive area of him, but now I basically have to follow behind her every second when she's near the dog to make sure she doesn't plop down accidentally on him. It's stressing me out, really. Any suggestions? I don't want to have to follow her so closely because I want her to be able to explore the house without me being an inch behind her, and I don't want to separate Barns either... Then I guess you have to ask yourself this: how will you react when he bites her, which he is well within his canine rights to do for her inflicting substantial pain? If the answer is "I'll put the dog down or try to get rescue to take him" (I'm not saying you would do either, but do please keep in mind that a number of rescues won't rehome dogs with bite histories no matter how justified the bite for liability reasons), then for Barney's sake separation is probably the kinder, safer thing to do till the kid reaches a more trainable age. You can't train Barney out of it for the simple reason that he is in pain and would have been fully justified to bite her twice already, but instead limited himself to warnings. I give him a lot of credit. What a sweet dog.  But that's a lot to ask of a dog, you know? And every time she falls on him just ups the probability that he'll bite the next time. In his mind he's tried to warn her, but she's proven she can't take a hint. He's a dog. He doesn't understand that humans are born with such limited cognitive function. Let alone such poor motor skills The fact that he's limited himself to warnings so far speaks very well of his basic temperament given his condition, but any dog can be pushed too far. So you have to ask yourself if it's worth the risk to both of them?
Kristine |
| It's so good to see so much advice and real life stories, this is helping SOOO much!! We weren't really keeping them separated, we just weren't putting the baby on the floor too much with Sunny, and we didn't let Sunny lick her when we were holding her. We were paranoid about germs while she was super little, but it's all changed lately!! Thanks mostly to all of your encouragement and advice! So here's the scoop...
Sunny and the baby, Allie, are doing wonderfully now that they're actually together a lot . Although I don't leave the baby alone with Sunny and walk away, they're together and within sniffing/licking range way more now, and they are LOVING each other. Sunny can't lick Allie enough, especially her hands and face, (sigh, I wash Allie a million times a day, but it's ok, I'm getting used to it, and I'm relaxing about it too). And ever since we started Allie on solids, Sunny is right there to lick her feet in the high chair and watch for any handouts!
And Allie loves loves loves touching Sunny's fur. She lets out a shriek of glee whenever she gets a handful. Currently, she always tries to "eat" the handful of fur. It's pretty cute. And we've realized that Sunny is the best toy we could have ever got for Allie. All Sunny has to do is sit and lie down a couple times and the baby is in hysterics! Although I'm still concerned about Sunny accidentally pawing at the baby during one of her hyper moments, it hasn't happened yet. And she seems to respect the play mat that Allie lies on, she knows not to step on it- most of the time. And they "play" together through the playpen mesh; Sunny noses at Allie's hands and licks them and whimpers, and Allie squeals. We're working on Allie being able to ride Sunny. So far, Sunny gets a bit freaked out, so we're going slow on that one. Anyway, I just wanted to give an update and let everyone know that we're having a blast with the babies (Sunny is still considered our firstborn!)
I have a great photo of Allie and Sunny cuddling up together, but I can't figure out how to post it in a thread. I'll get it up sometime here once I figure it out. Of course, keep the advice coming, Allie is only 7 months old and not very mobile yet, so we've got a long way to go still!!! I'm just waiting for Allie to start crawling to see if Sunny's herding instinct is going to kick in. She herded my husband and I when she was a pup, so we'll see! Again, thank you so much for your posts, it's been so awesome! Take care everyone! |
| I can tell from your photos that Allie and Sunny just love, love, love one another. Those have got to be some of the biggest baby and sheepie grins I have EVER seen. Sooooo cute.
If it helps your concerns about germs, there is lots of research out there that shows that kids who are exposed to dogs/cats from a very young age are less likely to suffer from allergies like asthma and eczema. The theory is that early exposure to common germs enables our immune systems to learn the difference between common stuff like dog and bad stuff like infectious diseases. Here's a web link but there is lots of research out there now. http://www.webmd.com/asthma/news/20050321/pet-dogs-may-keep-infants-from-wheezing Also I thought you might be interested in this research showing that babies are able to identify the emotional content of dog barks and whines. No wonder your to adorable, happy chappies get on so well together. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/158266.php I agree though you are wise never to leave them unsupervised together. Thanks for your update and the adorable photos. |
| Sounds like everything is going great! The only thing I would caution against is letting the baby "ride" Sunny. It would probably look cute now but as the baby gets bigger & it becomes a habit it's won't be good for Sunny. Especially if older kids are around & see her doing so. I just err on the side of caution on these type of things. |
| ^^^ I so agree (and I found out about 8 years after it happened that my daughter used to ride my poor Max when no one was around - and she was a tiny 6 y/o!!) I also think babies should never ever be allowed to grab the dogs hair or fall on them or climg on them or hurt them in any way. I am not saying it is to protect the baby, but the poor dog. He/she never asked for this new person to come in and take away all of his/her attention, the least you can do is protect them from the terror! In my experience they will be more than happy to stay away from an untrained baby |
| So glad that things are going well. I found that as the children grew and became more mobile--the dogs know how to stay just far enough away to be in the clear.
Your pictures are adorable--snuggle buds! |
sheepiezone wrote: So glad that things are going well. I found that as the children grew and became more mobile--the dogs know how to stay just far enough away to be in the clear.
This conjures up visions of OES clinging to the chandeliers.
I once crated my nephew to buy my dogs some quiet time. I have a picture somewhere of three of them staring in at him, absolutely delighted with the turn of events and they love kids, but he was literally running them into the ground. Actually it was his idea. When he wasn't practicing heeling with Belle (Indian name: Sainted Dog of Endless Patience and Tolerance), he had me put a slip lead around his waist and he'd pretend he was the dog. He did a pretty mean heeling pattern, too. Though his recall was so-so.  Months after he first met them he ran around barking at inopportune moments, much to his mother's embarrassment. On the plus side, no one ever asks me to babysit anymore
Kristine |
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Mad Dog wrote: sheepiezone wrote: So glad that things are going well. I found that as the children grew and became more mobile--the dogs know how to stay just far enough away to be in the clear. This conjures up visions of OES clinging to the chandeliers. I once crated my nephew to buy my dogs some quiet time. I have a picture somewhere of three of them staring in at him, absolutely delighted with the turn of events and they love kids, but he was literally running them into the ground. Actually it was his idea. When he wasn't practicing heeling with Belle (Indian name: Sainted Dog of Endless Patience and Tolerance), he had me put a slip lead around his waist and he'd pretend he was the dog. He did a pretty mean heeling pattern, too. Though his recall was so-so. Months after he first met them he ran around barking at inopportune moments, much to his mother's embarrassment. On the plus side, no one ever asks me to babysit anymore Kristine I guess that with my two children--the dogs were introduced to the kids when they were newborn and experienced every phase of their development. From the beginning (the dogs were both actually there first) the dynamics as the kids grew was a natural progression. At each stage as the kids began to be more mobile, the dogs figured out how to stay clear when they didn't want 'kid time'. And generally were involved with most of the activities--especially meal time! We just never found that we had to separate them or create boundaries--it just all worked. Maybe the difference was that they were not introduced to the household at a time that they were able to terrorize the dogs. I was not a nervous mom--my attitude was that the children would be introduced to our lifestyle-- and everything in the household did not revolve around them. They learned to function (within reason) to the activities and creatures in our household and grew up to be well adjusted young adults. The dogs and the kids were and are well adjusted creatures! |
Sunny'sMom wrote: ...We're working on Allie being able to ride Sunny. So far, Sunny gets a bit freaked out, so we're going slow on that one.
Please say you're not serious about encouraging Allie to ride Sunny.  This is definitely not respectful behavior to the dog and may encourage your child to believe all dogs are as tolerant as Sunny. It can also cause physical damage to the dog.
These irresponsible actions that parents think are so cute actually land many dogs in rescues. Or worse.  |
Maggie McGee IV wrote: Sunny'sMom wrote: ...We're working on Allie being able to ride Sunny. So far, Sunny gets a bit freaked out, so we're going slow on that one. Please say you're not serious about encouraging Allie to ride Sunny. This is definitely not respectful behavior to the dog and may encourage your child to believe all dogs are as tolerant as Sunny. It can also cause physical damage to the dog.These irresponsible actions that parents think are so cute actually land many dogs in rescues. Or worse. Ok, I'd better speak up before my previous post offends any more people . I wasn't going to clarify at first because I thought it was obvious that I was joking, but I feel the need to defend my post. We took one photo of Allie, as a 5 month old baby, with her legs over Sunny (my husband held her in the air, over top of Sunny, not actually making any contact). Just to have the photo, that's all. Sunny didn't even realize what was going on. We will NOT be having Allie ride Sunny, it's just a running joke with our friends and family because they all think that Sunny is so huge (My dad always asks me "when are you going to buy a saddle for that dog? She's huge!"). I've actually yelled at people before because they've actually let their kids ride their dogs. Dogs may be able to pull a sled as a team, but they are not "beasts of burden", they're not meant to bear that kind of weight on top of their backs. I'm a bit of an animal activist.
And concern was expressed about fur pulling- we don't let Allie pull on Sunny's fur; fur pulling is a sure fire way to get bit or growled at, as it hurts and annoys the dog. I sure don't like it when Allie pulls my hair! We're teaching her how to pet Sunny, and in the teaching, sometimes she grabs on (she's 7 months old right now, so she wants to grab onto everything). When this happens, we gently pry her little fingers off of Sunny's fur and tell her "no, be gentle" and show her again "how" to pet Sunny. She never really pulls on Sunny's fur, it's more of a clutch as she's discovering the texture. We pry her off before any pulling could happen. We love Sunny to bits, she's our first born child, and our baby's older sister, and we would never do anything that would hurt her or stress her out just for the sake of something cute. Sunny's even written into our fire escape plan. It's a pretty simple plan, but it erases any doubt of what to do in case of emergency- I get the dog, my husband gets the baby. I know that statements made in jest can sometimes be misinterpreted over the internet, and I think that's what happened here. I should have put a winky face behind it, I always try to use emoticons to explain the tone, but I left it out on that statement. Sorry for the misunderstanding. |
I'm sure you love your dog and child completely. Unfortunately, many people actually DO let their kids treat a big dog like a pony and it generally ends up bad for both the child and the dog. We've had several dogs surrendered to our rescue because of bites to children during this type of "play". Many rescues will not take a dog with any kind of bite history so most are euthanized. 
The dogs we rescue are my "kids" and I'm passionate about them. Most of us here know to take some things with a grain of salt (or cup of tea  ) Thanks for clarifying the situation. 
Nita Midwest OES Rescue |
Sunny'sMom wrote: And concern was expressed about fur pulling- we don't let Allie pull on Sunny's fur; fur pulling is a sure fire way to get bit or growled at, as it hurts and annoys the dog. I sure don't like it when Allie pulls my hair! We're teaching her how to pet Sunny, and in the teaching, sometimes she grabs on (she's 7 months old right now, so she wants to grab onto everything). When this happens, we gently pry her little fingers off of Sunny's fur and tell her "no, be gentle" and show her again "how" to pet Sunny. She never really pulls on Sunny's fur, it's more of a clutch as she's discovering the texture. We pry her off before any pulling could happen.
that's how we trained our kids too
You have to remember on the forum as well that sometimes strangers will find a post in a search and you know if it's written on the Internet - it must be right  which could have caused some of the reactions you got.
Dogs can be beasts of burden with backpacks you know or in harness. But I agree they are not (supposed) to be ridden directly. |
| Thanks Nita, I was worried that I had offended people, thanks for understanding that it was just a misunderstanding It's great that you're working to rescue OES's, I applaud your efforts!
kerry wrote: Dogs can be beasts of burden with backpacks you know
or in harness. So true! We had a pull harness for our Samoyed, and I've wondered how Sunny would take to it. We're just afraid that it'll undo her "no pulling" training Which we worked very hard to implement, and now with baby in tow, is more important than ever.  |
| Chewie is a weight pull Champion with 2 different organizations (the only OES on record for both) and it makes NO difference in his behavior and manners.
It is one of the (many ) sports that he really enjoys. Getting his harness out means I get the bouncy Chewie doing the happy dance!
Here are 3 pictures of him - doing weight pull, obedience, and taking Best In Show all in the same day: 
And pictures doing sledding: 
and still having a good time with the kids at 4-H camp as the Therapy Dog on duty to help the homesick kids: 
If you have the knowledge, training, equipment and desire, these dogs can do a LOT more than you give them credit for. |
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