Obedience training question

We have a really solid recall on Morgan, and even a 99.99% reliable drop on recall. Now I need to add a good finish. is it easier to train the finish to heel for the recall in obedience (and is that acceptable for the recall?) I sort of have to have this down by the 19th

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kerry wrote:

Kerry, I'm confused. Are you asking about whether to train a right or a left finish?

For the right finish, dog goes to YOUR right and around you to heel position. In the left finish, sometimes called swing finish, dog swings around to your left and ends up in heel position.

Personally I find it easier to teach the left finish. Added benefit: dog is less likely to be out of sight :lol:

For rally and Open obed, they should know both. Rally, for obvious reasons, open because of the finish after the broad jump where going around (right) may be a better option for a big dog.

If that's NOT what you asked, apologies.

Whatever you do train the finish separate from the recall (you can piece it all together) because many dogs learn to anticipate and go straight to heel, skipping the front, because we tend to reward for the last part of an exercise, They're not stooopid. Why do the stuff in betweeen? :wink:

It pays to work fronts seprately, and then work recall to front and stop and reward that a lot. Work the finish separately by putting dog in heel position and YOU step in front to face them and ask for which ever finish you want (I usually train one and then the other to save them some confusion) Only problem is that some dogs get sooo excited about this exercise that all they want to do is finish. That's a stage and a good sign. They work though it.

Now, what did you REALLY ask about before I launched into my mini lecture that probably completely missed the mark :wink:

I also was confused......kerry???

I feel like part of the sentence is missing - Is it easier to train the finish like in obedience or what??

Anyway - do as Kristine says. :lol:

I teach mine both ways (right and left) - Chewie does either fine.

Simon wierdly came trained to do the swing (left). I found that odd, as a basset would do better doing the around to the right finish easier, given the body they have. :roll:

Anyway, we did rally, so he ended up learning both as well.

Shoot I replied to this and it disappeared

Anyway - thanks. You managed to hit the nail on the head. I have trained the recall and the drop without a finsih to make sure he isn't confused that they are one and the same. He has a decent finish (to either side) for rally, but there are guide wires

I needed to know which was better to use on the recall in obedience. I guess we will do the left

It's actually fun to know both.

You have the option of sending them either way. If you are good at thinking on the fly, under pressure, you could send him whatever way he seems more inclined after he fronts. All sorts of options!

Depends on the dog too. Some really thrive on the mental game and love it. Others get thrown a loop if you mess with the routine.

I am just curious as eventually we (guess it should be "I" as Harry has never said whether he desires this) would like to go into a novice obedience ring.

Would we need the "drop" on the recall at the novice level?

I thought that was only required at the higher levels and that Harry needs to come "front" on the recall exercise before signaled to "finish". I would like to be sure before we go into yet another ring and make fools of ourselves.

SheepieMommy wrote:

In AKC obedience the DOR (drop on recall) is only required in the Open ring, i.e. for his CDX.

You train the drop seperate from the recall as well. Many don't polish it until after their dogs have their CD because during the training process it can slow the dog's recall down as they tend to anticipate a drop (anticipation is a natural and healthy part of training) and slow down and some times even drop themselves.

Later it becomes easier to go back and forth. I do with Belle, But even with her if I drop her even once or twice, when I call her in on a straight recall she will usually anticipate to some degree.

Some use different commands on the recall. "Come" if they plan to drop the dog, "front" for the straight recall. I don't know that Belle has ever caught on to the distinction but then again she did understand the difference between wait (dynamic stay command - you will be told to move from this stay and where to go as well) and stay (static stay - I will be returning to you) while the youngest generation is still struggling with the basic STAY concept.

I'm sure I trained her more thoroughly, but, really. :roll:

This is not a terribly hard concept. You'd think. :wink:

SheepieMommy wrote:

As Kristine said - only required for competition at the higher level - but I think its a safety issue, especially if you are likely to let your dog off lead.

I also like to know my dogs are over prepared before we go into competition, but that's just me :roll:

kerry wrote:

I also like to know my dogs are over prepared before we go into competition, but that's just me :roll:

Over prepared is excellent for both handler and dog's confidence. Drop on recall when only a straight recall is needed is overkill and it's one of those rare exercises it's probably better to NOT train in its entirety before a dog has his CD. And, frankly, lots of dogs get their CDs who never go on to get a CDX, so never need a drop on recall. So not a prerequisite by any stretch for hitting the Novice ring.

Mind you, teaching a dog to drop at a distance without the recall can indeed be a life saver. That's where I start. Che is starting to get it. The girls are so-so on the idea :lol:

To me, and I could be wrong, it can be somewhat of a special challenge to teach an OES due to their legendary velcro-ness. BUT, then again, many are also pigs and/or play hogs.

I'm teaching Sybil to sit at a distance, I'll do the drop later, the same way I'm starting the sit: by getting her revved with her ball. You want it, you sit. The minute her butt hits the ground, I toss the ball. It works with her because her natural tendency when she sees the ball is to want to run out a bit to anticipate (there's that word again) where the ball will land. I.e. I use her natural inclination to want to cheat to get her where I want her (away from me) and then I ask for a sit, which she is likely to give me because (contrary to what one would sometimes think :wink:

) she does know what sit means and she really, but really wants me to throw the ball.

That won't work with Belle who was taught to retrieve a dumb bell, but only does it to humor me, or rather, to con me into giving her cookies, but could otherwise care less about retrieving anything but sheep. However, she's an oinker, so I toss those disgusting big yellow cheese balls. She follows them out (away from me) and then I tell her to sit or down. Then I release her by tossing her reward BEHIND her, thus, again, achieving the elusive distance I need to work on the sit or down at a distance.

Of course, you can always put them in a stay and ask for a position other than the one you leave them in and thus get a start on the utility signals exerices (the signals themselves have to be taught seperately and up close to begin with). You don't NEED to teach them to do the same on a verbal, but I think there is some value to teaching the dog to change position by both signal or verbal command.

Why not just pick one (entice dog away from you OR leave in a stay and you create the distance)? Because they are not the same thing in the dog's mind - most just don't generalize very well. Being able to do both gives you more to work with. You'll need a sit at a distance for the go-out for instance.

All of these things are so much fun to teach even if you never see the inside of an obedience ring. The dogs LOVE it because you're playing to their natural inclinations or drives.

The truly important component before entering the novice ring (beyond a sit, a down, and a solid stay and come when called, plus the stand) is ATTENTION.

Sybil knows all of the novice exercises quite well, except maybe the stand which she fidgets on. Her attention span, however is QUITE variable. First you teach it, then you proof it every which way to Sunday. That's where being overprepared is a darn good thing. So what many people do is start teaching the open and utility exercises while fine-tuning the heeling for the novice ring so the dog has a lot of variety to work on. You don't have to do it this way. I didn't with Belle. But I do now. Even with that, you learn that every dog is different and you just train and compete to their strengths.

Kristine

well we worked on the finish last night and this morning (half heartedly) apparently since he really knows what I mean by "heel" he just will jump to it and finish left. I think we are okay there.

I need to proof his stand.... got to think about that one. and when you say attention - I assume you just mean they are focused on you?

Having never even watched a real obedience trial all the way through (I admit it I find it boring) Our entry should be interesting (hope to dog we aren't first)

kerry wrote:

Having never even watched a real obedience trial all the way through (I admit it I find it boring) Our entry should be interesting (hope to dog we aren't first)

I love watching obedience. OK, I love watching good teams. Dogs that wander all over can be painful to watch.

Yes, attention is basically dog watching you. Without it, it's kind of hard for them to stay in heel position :roll:

And Novice A is practically never first. Watch the B dogs first and you'll get the hang of it. You've attended run-thrus, I take it? That will teach you the flow of things. Mentally knowing what you're doing next helps you keep the connection with your dog. Also, nice "judges" at run-thrus will give you handling tips if you ask them and help you avoid the worst of the handler errors.

Order (sorry if you already know this);

1) Heel on leash. **
2) figure 8 around human posts
- then sit dog (usually) roughly where indicated; give leash to steward
3) stand for exam
4) off lead heeling pattern
5) recall

-- PUT LEASH BACK ON DOG BEFORE LEAVING RING!

6) you come back in in groups of some predetermined number of dogs to do the sits and down.

**Judge will show the first handler in the ring the heeling pattern before the class starts. After that, watch the other handlers. Your heeling will be smoother if you have a clue what's coming next. The judge uses the same pattern for all dogs in the class, usually if not always it's the same pattern for B and A. The pattern will be repeated for the off leash heeling, so it's a really good thing to know.

Heeling consists, typically, of an L. There will be (usually) a couple of sits, a slow, a fast, some normals to transition out of those paces, a right turn, a left turn and a couple of about-turns.

Handler errors. There are many!

Here is a biggie: the stand for exam. You start in a sit, this is when your leash comes off. Judge says: "stand your dog and leave when ready"

You can give stand command (teach a kick-back stand so the dog doesn't step forward) or you can (in novice) gently (!) position your dog for the stand. Typically, you want the dog standing four square. One, it looks prettier. Two, and more importantly, a dog standing square is less likely to move.

When dog is standing to your satisfaction (you try not to take all day to get them there), you press lightly on their withers a couple of times. (not required! Why do many do this? Because when you push against a dog like that, the dog's natural inclination is to push back, securing it in the stand.

OK, NOW, before you do ANYTHING else, get your hand OFF your dog, stand up straight, MAKE SURE YOU ARE IN HEEL POSITION and THEN give your stay command and go NO FURTHER THAN SIX FEET AWAY. No less either. Practice knowing how far with a six foot leash. Most judges will give you a hint if they feel you're stepping too far away. Especially in the A class.

Why do I emphasize this? Because there is an unwritten rule that your dog has every right to bite the handler in the butt if they incur handler error deductions on this exercise especially. I.e. it's a common place where people get dinged, even while the dog was perfect. And it's an easy exercise to get a perfect score on when the dog knows how to stand. Why give points away?

Teaching the stand is just proofing, proofing and more proofing. One exercise where conformation dogs usually have the advantage. Belle can do this in her sleep. Mace is on her way there. Sybil and Che have to be reminded not to jump up on the judge, wiggle, kiss the judge so exuberantly they move out of position, drop to the ground and belly up for rubs. All the usual :roll:

Kristine

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