"Where can I get OES puppies" advice on the street
A stranger with 2 kids yesterday said they were looking for a dog and where could they get one like mine, how much it cost, etc. It threw me off a bit, because the questioning was more directed and intentful (than the usual "what kind of dog is this" we get many times daily), in a way which made me think he was serious, so I didn't mind giving him more specific advice. I told him that he should go on-line and learn as much about the breed as possible, before deciding on the OES. Read about health issues, grooming and care, training, etc. I also directed him to the OESCA website to read the breed standard (and not to mind silly terms like "pot-casse ring") so that he is familiar with what he should be looking for in a sound dog. As far as price, I told him he should expect to pay about $900-$1000 for a great pet-quality pedigreed puppy, or about $1500 and above if he cared that the parents had ribbons. Above all, to check for health and temperament, and ask the sellers many questions to make sure they are serious, knowledgeable, patient and purposeful about their animals, and not merely in it for the money. Did I miss anything important? What do you guys usually answer in such situations? |
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| I think your pricing is fairly off unless you were recommending that these people buy from a BYB. I really don't know what your intentions were. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I think your pricing is fairly off unless you were recommending that these people buy from a BYB. I really don't know what your intentions were.
Ditto.... I usually recommend people really dig in and learn about the breed, directing them here first, and to OESCA and OESOCC. |
I keep a handful of "OES.ORG" business cards (sent with the x-mas card this year from Ron...Thanx Ron!  ) and hand them out with the advise that reading the forum is a good source of info on the breed. I also keep the phone # of the local Sheepdog rescue to hand out to those who are interested in an adult sheepie.  I usually figure that theyll then learn about things like OESCA on the forum, if they bother to do much research here.
I must admit, I do spend a bit of time emphasizing the fact that these are pretty high-maintenance dogs . It bugs me when people get all enthused about the "no shedding" aspect of sheepies   |
ButtersStotch wrote: I think your pricing is fairly off unless you were recommending that these people buy from a BYB. I really don't know what your intentions were.
What would you say are the right prices, then? I'm not up on prices because I haven't been shopping for pups lately. Almost 2 years ago, I paid $500 for my pup, but I realize I got a great price thru a personal connection to the breeder. |
| Tell them to go to www.oldenglishsheepdogclubofamerica.org & then to bring up the breeder referral list. This will bring up a list of breeders that have met additional criteria in order to be included on this list. They are members of the national club also. They can start by selecting breeders by state if they like & go from there on contacting them via e-mail or by phone.
And I agree with the others on the price. I would say anything below $1200 I'd be skeptical of. $1500 & up is more like it. Whether the parents "have ribbons" or not or titles or not really doesn't come into play. It's the health testing of the parents & knowlege of the breeders & of what pedigrees to put together that you are paying for. |
| We do get a lot of questions on the street about our dogs, don't we?
Most of the time I don't mind, but there are days I think I'll just scream if another person asks me "what kind of dog is this." |
Cadenza wrote: We do get a lot of questions on the street about our dogs, don't we?
Most of the time I don't mind, but there are days I think I'll just scream if another person asks me "what kind of dog is this." "what kind..." doesnt bug me....I hate "oh look, a labradoodle!"  |
ravenmoonart wrote: Cadenza wrote: We do get a lot of questions on the street about our dogs, don't we? Most of the time I don't mind, but there are days I think I'll just scream if another person asks me "what kind of dog is this." "what kind..." doesnt bug me....I hate "oh look, a labradoodle!" And recently I've been getting "is he a Portuguese Water dog"? |
Cadenza wrote: ravenmoonart wrote: Cadenza wrote: We do get a lot of questions on the street about our dogs, don't we? Most of the time I don't mind, but there are days I think I'll just scream if another person asks me "what kind of dog is this." "what kind..." doesnt bug me....I hate "oh look, a labradoodle!" And recently I've been getting "is he a Portuguese Water dog"? me too!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I laughed really loud at the PWD!!! I was asked 3 times in 1 walk
(time to quit the home haircts) |
Cadenza wrote: What do you tell people on the street when they ask you where to get an OES? I tell them about where I have gotten my OESes and give them an oes.org business card.ravenmoonart wrote: I keep a handful of "OES.ORG" business cards (sent with the x-mas card this year )/ If anyone needs some cards, drop me an emailravenmoonart wrote: I must admit, I do spend a bit of time emphasizing the fact that these are pretty high-maintenance dogs . It bugs me when people get all enthused about the "no shedding" aspect of sheepies Me too, on both counts. Willowsprite wrote: I usually recommend people really dig in and learn about the breed, directing them here first Ditto...I give them a card, and talk about nothing but my rescue dog and rescue in general, and that occasionally puppies are available. But I also mention about how long puppyhood is for these guys and how much patience is required. After they see how much energy and exuberance my 6 1/2 year old has, I think they understand.Cadenza wrote: We do get a lot of questions on the street about our dogs, don't we? Yes. Tonight I gave out three cards between the restaurant, the parking lot and the ice cream joint. Really!Again, if anyone needs some cards, drop me a line, lemme know how many you'd like. An address might be helpful. On the front, the cards have Quote: the oes.org logo, contact info for Joan and me, "visit the sheepdog forum http://forum.oes.org ". On the back it has Quote: New England Old English Sheepdog Rescue 781-259-8173
http://www.neoesr.org - Grannie.Annie@neoesr.org" there is also lots of room to write on the back, but because of the heavy plastic coating only a "Sharpie" magic marker will work well. |
| The cards really are handy. Ive been writing the web address for the oes forum on the back of my own business cards for years. A lot of the people I wind up talking to are tourists, for whom local info is useless anyway. |
Ron wrote: there is also lots of room to write on the back, but because of the heavy plastic coating only a "Sharpie" magic marker will work well.
I'm sorry, we can do all-matte cards next time... 
I carry them around in my wallet with my business cards. |
| definately way way off on prices............... for healthy not puppy mill oes |
Ali wrote: definately way way off on prices............... for healthy not puppy mill oes
Hi. Ali. How do breeders usually price their puppies? It must be difficult coming up with an actual dollar amount for something that ultimately becomes a priceless experience. It's almost like selling a piece of art. |
Cadenza wrote: Ali wrote: definately way way off on prices............... for healthy not puppy mill oes Hi. Ali. How do breeders usually price their puppies? It must be difficult coming up with an actual dollar amount for something that ultimately becomes a priceless experience. It's almost like selling a piece of art. You figure out what you have in the breeding, whelping & raising the litter costs and them you divide it amongst the average number in a litter. Most of the time we end up spending more than we get back when we sell the pups. If we average it out over several litters (this would be over several years) & break even, we figure we are doing good. It is definitely not something we make any money on. |
Ron wrote: [I give them a card, and talk about nothing but my rescue dog and rescue in general, and that occasionally puppies are available. But I also mention about how long puppyhood is for these guys and how much patience is required.
Oh, gee, thanks, Ron. So you're the reason I have to spend endless hours talking people completely new to the breed out of a rescue dog.
I know you're just following your heart, but this is not the breed for an inexperienced dog owner to begin with. I've lost count of how many people with no clue about the breed have called me up on young problem dogs I've been fostering and demanded to adopt them. They just MUST have a rescue dog. They just must have our youngest and they just know based on her adorable picture this is their heart dog. Then the local rescue coordinator and/or I just must explain to them why this is a really, really bad idea and we HATE bursting people's kind-hearted bubbles 
I've had people ask me about the dog's pedigree, how well she fit the standard (well, if you squint you can imagine she's an OES She's a very adorable dog - what more do you need to know?!) and if her parents were OFA'd. HELLO! The encouraging news is that some people are finally asking the right questions, just of the wrong source.
So I beg of you who advocate rescue dogs as the be-all source for dogs, please, please be honest with prospective adopters and tell them: 1) a number of the younger ones especially are given up for behavioral/temperament and/or health problems. They are more often than not the recycled product from the very breeders we beg them not to get puppies from in the first place. That doesn't mean they aren't worthy of a good home or that we don't  the people who have the patience and skill and dedication to adopt them. It does mean they often require a very special, experienced home. There have been one or two I couldn't live with on a long term basis. One especially. I loved her. I fought hard for and worked harder with her. But she made me question why I love dogs, and that maybe I should take up a less stressful hobby, like skydiving. This is not the appropriate introduction for a home we want to develop into another one that "can't live without an OES". We want them seriously hooked FIRST before we throw the tough cases at them
2) many rescues don't like to adopt dogs out to inexperienced homes for the reasons above so they will constantly be pushed to the bottom of our waiting list until the "right" dog comes along. We've had one such "could place with anyone" dog in the last two years and we did indeed save her for a great but inexperienced home. 3) Because of the above if they have their heart set on a rescue dog they should seriously consider a more mature dog, probably 5 years old and up, or be prepared for a significant wait. 4) only very rarely does OES Rescue have puppies. I can think of two apparently purebred litters in the country in the last two years, not counting the one some rescue inadvertently bred themselves  . They are more likely to have mixed breed puppies and many of these are fabulous, but the other half of their genetic make-up can often only be guessed at, so that takes the predictability out of the equation.
5) there really aren't that many rescue dogs (purebred OES, that is - lots of great shaggy mixes that may or may not be part OES, though) any more overall, and in certain parts of the country rarely at all, so now in some areas they become dependant on rescues who are willing to ship. We've been screamed at for our unwillingness to ship and have had more inquiries from East and West coasts, including Canada, than I care to remember. I just firmly believe we should be honest with people. Especially and self-servedly so I don't get to be the bad guy who bursts their bubble. If they know all of this and still want a rescue dog and don't mind patiently waiting for the right dog, bless them :kiss: But really these are the very people who should be sent in search of a breeder who will teach them how survive OES puppyhood and back them up throughout the process as needed. Now, having said that, please, please DO send every OES experienced home you can find to us!!! Especially if they're passionate about training dogs. These are the homes rescue dogs desperately need. There has to be a good fit, and a rescue dog is not interchangable with either a dog or a puppy from an experienced and caring breeder who breeds for health and temperament and will hold the puppy buyers hand as long as it takes. No foster dogs right now  My vet is off rehabilitating our latest problem child, bless her heart. I get to train my own hooligans for a change. Have a great weekend.
Kristine |
Oh puhleeze. 
It's my job on the street to steer them away from BYBs and get them to visit here and/or get talking to a rescue person for a more in-depth interview. As mentioned I do go into some of the less glamorous aspects of sheepdog ownership, but I don't think that it's a time to be starting a 30 minute dissertation and evaluation. I'm sorry it causes you to be the bad guy and have to tell people they're not right as adoptive homes for this breed, but I thought that's one of the primary job descriptions of a placement director. No? PS Just so you know: Jake (my first rescue OES, a 106 pound aggressive/dominant biting dog) was my first ever dog, and he was placed with us after extensive discussions with the NEOESR placement director, and it was a great fit. I think. |
| I guess you can say i actually try to steer people away from the breed compared to other people i run into who would answer "Oh, i love my boxer. He's the best and the calmest dog ever, and I got him here... they have a litter now."
It really depends on the type of person, if I'm being completely honest, to how I answer. i also mention the high maintenance of the breed, but if they're already stated something absurd like searching for a dog and paying a ridiculous price of $500 ...then everything I say is negative. If a family like my own comes up to me with questions, I'm more positive about the grooming, etc. |
Joahaeyo wrote: I guess you can say i actually try to steer people away from the breed compared to other people i run into who would answer "Oh, i love my boxer. He's the best and the calmest dog ever, and I got him here... they have a litter now."
It really depends on the type of person, if I'm being completely honest, to how I answer. i also mention the high maintenance of the breed, but if they're already stated something absurd like searching for a dog and paying a ridiculous price of $500 ...then everything I say is negative. If a family like my own comes up to me with questions, I'm more positive about the grooming, etc. How do you sheepdog veterans balance the need to promote the breed and discouraging inept people from having the breed? I mean, it is a worthy mission to try to discourage passive and inept dog owners from owning a sheepdog (or any dog for that matter), but OTOH I really wish the breed was a little bit more popular, because they are great dogs. Except for grooming exigencies, OES are a fairly adaptable breed and fit well in many environments. Owners just need to have realistic expectations as far as their animals' needs, and everything should be fine. And also, many of you involved in breeding have already pointed out the scarcity problems in the gene pool. |
ChSheepdogs wrote: You figure out what you have in the breeding, whelping & raising the litter costs and them you divide it amongst the average number in a litter.
But don't you take into account regional market considerations as well? If in a bad economy the market won't bear the prices you are asking, and you have an 8-pup-litter on your hands, aren't you forced to reduce the prices? Similarly, a silly movie with a sheepdog comes out and all of a sudden everybody wants sheepdogs, don't you get to raise your prices? II'm sure this is first and foremost a labor of love, whether you are a champion breeder or BYB there's no way one can become rich making puppies, unless you are a puppy mill. |
Cadenza wrote: ChSheepdogs wrote: You figure out what you have in the breeding, whelping & raising the litter costs and them you divide it amongst the average number in a litter. But don't you take into account regional market considerations as well? If in a bad economy the market won't bear the prices you are asking, and you have an 8-pup-litter on your hands, aren't you forced to reduce the prices? Similarly, a silly movie with a sheepdog comes out and all of a sudden everybody wants sheepdogs, don't you get to raise your prices? II'm sure this is first and foremost a labor of love, whether you are a champion breeder or BYB there's no way one can become rich making puppies, unless you are a puppy mill. When we breed a litter, what the market can bear never comes into play. We don't breed often enough for that. 1 maybe 2 litters a year if that. We skipped a breeding with one of our really nice girls last time around because the timing just wasn't right for either Cathy, me or the people she lives with. And every litter is always bred hoping we can find great homes for our pups after we have decided which to keep for ourselves but if they don't come along, the pups stay with us. A responsible breeder is prepared to keep every pup in the litter if necessary. So no, what the market can bear doesn't come into play for us. And yes, it is always a labor of love......for the betterment of the breed. |
| market never comes into play here either. And i only breed every 2 or 3 years............. I don't breed for anyone but me. I do take into account what the going price is in our area as well. but i also think what i hve put into the bitch re: heatlth testing, titles that have been acquired, and her quality as well as the stud she is mated to and his quality etc.
i know that prices vary around the country. Also if i am exporting as well. Right now i have a list of people that are waiting and have been for 2 years. It just wasn't time for me to have a litter the past couple of years since her last litter. This one is going to be a bit of a logistical challenge but will do okay. |
Ron wrote: Oh puhleeze.
It's my job on the street to steer them away from BYBs and get them to visit here and/or get talking to a rescue person for a more in-depth interview. As mentioned I do go into some of the less glamorous aspects of sheepdog ownership, but I don't think that it's a time to be starting a 30 minute dissertation and evaluation. I'm sorry it causes you to be the bad guy and have to tell people they're not right as adoptive homes for this breed, but I thought that's one of the primary job descriptions of a placement director. No? PS Just so you know: Jake (my first rescue OES, a 106 pound aggressive/dominant biting dog) was my first ever dog, and he was placed with us after extensive discussions with the NEOESR placement director, and it was a great fit. I think. I know. And that's great. But another rescue placed such a dog with a woman in Wisconsin who ended up getting badly bitten. In addition to the unfortunate extensive medical repercussions for that poor woman, as well as unfortunate "PR" for rescue, legal aspects also come into play. Annie and I have talked about that. Each rescue handles that risk and liability differently. We don't have a placement director. We have a rescue coordinator who does most of the pre-screening of potential adopters. After that she consults with the foster home, often me, who also generally speaks with the potential adopters and together they decide if it's a good fit. However, since I'm listed as the back-up contact person, I happen to get a fair number of the initial inquiries as well. If there's any doubt, usually about the suitability of the dog for placement at all, it goes to the entire rescue committee, that is, all six of us, all but one breeders, one who also happens to be a vet. Not a step we take lightly. Nobody said rescue was for the faint of heart, right? If you see your job as primarily to steer people away from BYBs, what I'm telling you from experience is that when you're talking to people who are inexperiended with the breed and don't have a lot of other large breed dog experience either, you're not necessarily doing them or rescue any favors by exclusively pushing rescue. Most of them aren't going to end up with a dog from us in any event, though we'll certainly accomodate them if we can. But our first obligation is to the dog. I have no problem telling such potential owners how to find a good breeder. Since many don't necessarily want a puppy, if we're lucky some (reputable) breeder in the Midwest will have a nice, well socialized, well trained dog to place for whatever reason. A much better experience for them more often than not. In exchange, a number of breeders, including several on the committee, have urged their experienced owners (people who've purchased puppies from them in the past) to consider a rescue dog if they don't have dog for them, which works out well for us since most of the dogs we need to place require experienced owners. That's the kind of bigger-picture, flexibility that's needed. Steering people away from undesirable breeders is not enough - you also have to steer them towards getting the right dog, both for their sake as well as the dog's. We've been surprised how many first time owners are contacting rescue these days. Partially due to the political climate, but also economics. They want perfection, and they want it cheap. I'm sure you, too, remember a time when there was a better dose of reality involving rescue and people understood they were potentially taking on very worthwhile often special needs dogs, and that was part of the appeal: giving a dog a second chance. These days rescue is touted as the morally superior equivalent of getting a dog from a (good) breeder. Well, it isn't. It still takes a special kind of person to live with many of these dogs, and those are the homes we desperately need. So please make sure you include a good dose of reality when you promote rescue. And if you come across someone in the Midwest who doesn't have any other dogs and has experience dealing with dog aggression, PM me. Seriously. We desperately want to give a certain dog a chance, but it's definitely going to take the right home. Kristine |
Cadenza wrote: But don't you take into account regional market considerations as well? If in a bad economy the market won't bear the prices you are asking, and you have an 8-pup-litter on your hands, aren't you forced to reduce the prices? Similarly, a silly movie with a sheepdog comes out and all of a sudden everybody wants sheepdogs, don't you get to raise your prices? No, no and no. |
As far as the whole rescue vs puppy question when talking to people "on the street" goes...I try to (within time constraints...as Im usually working when this comes up!) to discuss both, partially because rescue sheepies are very rare in my area (and difficult to transport from out-of-state), and because my feeling is that which is a better fit depends on a lot of factors...one of these is dog-experience, but even more important (in my opinion) is personality. I happen to be (for instance) a much better doggy "rehaber" (is that really a word?  ) than puppy raiser. Im not sure why, but my 1st pup, Bert, was a real struggle for me, after having previously having had rescues. Thank goodness I had a close friend who is a trainer, willing to help me out, or else Bert would probably be a complete mess!
Also, referring to one of Cadenza's questions, why would we really want sheepdogs to become "more popular"? Yes, they are great dogs, but loving them as I do, I have to admit that Im glad that if I go to petfinders (a site for finding rescue/shelter dogs) there are usually only about 50 or so...compared to literally thousands of Labs, or Jack Russels! |
Cadenza wrote: Joahaeyo wrote: I guess you can say i actually try to steer people away from the breed compared to other people i run into who would answer "Oh, i love my boxer. He's the best and the calmest dog ever, and I got him here... they have a litter now." It really depends on the type of person, if I'm being completely honest, to how I answer. i also mention the high maintenance of the breed, but if they're already stated something absurd like searching for a dog and paying a ridiculous price of $500 ...then everything I say is negative. If a family like my own comes up to me with questions, I'm more positive about the grooming, etc. How do you sheepdog veterans balance the need to promote the breed and discouraging inept people from having the breed? I mean, it is a worthy mission to try to discourage passive and inept dog owners from owning a sheepdog (or any dog for that matter), but OTOH I really wish the breed was a little bit more popular, because they are great dogs. Except for grooming exigencies, OES are a fairly adaptable breed and fit well in many environments. Owners just need to have realistic expectations as far as their animals' needs, and everything should be fine. And also, many of you involved in breeding have already pointed out the scarcity problems in the gene pool. Because........ I hate people having what I have esp. when i know they're most likely unable to care for them ($$$) or put the time in. I'm like that when anyone for ANY breed asks me about 'how can I get a puppy" since I'm known as the dog person to many of my friends. I rather just direct them to rescue b/c the reputable breeder route gives me a headache b/c I already know they won't get it. |
Yes, I admit it, I am "Debbie Downer" when it comes to random folks asking about getting an OES. 
Most people that come up to me like the look of the dog and aren't really interested in the grooming or training requirements. I try and emphasize the amount of work they can be, and the costs involved, trying to insert a reality check into the process. If they are persistent, I steer them to OESCA. I, like Laurel, am not necessarily interested in increasing the popularity of the breed. I'm glad the Obamas picked a PWD! Laurie and Oscar |
| I'm a sucker for research, research and then some research!!
IMO if the person isnt keen enough to get on the web, go to the library or whatever they need to do to find out about dogs in general and the dog they want in particular then they're not keen enough to cope with owning a dog. Yes I wonder if I'm a bit evil myself
So I tell everyone they are a great breed with lots of exercise and grooming needs and that they absolutely must do research and that if they have a vet then they should talk to their vet as well. Then its up to the individual as to how they get their dog. If its rescue, great, if its a puppy great, whatever works for them. Mind you here in Victoria it seems like whichever way you go its a long wait. |
ravenmoonart wrote: Cadenza wrote: We do get a lot of questions on the street about our dogs, don't we? Most of the time I don't mind, but there are days I think I'll just scream if another person asks me "what kind of dog is this." "what kind..." doesnt bug me....I hate "oh look, a labradoodle!" HAHA I get that too bla! |
| My worst has been - Oh look a miniature sheep dog!
Sorry - just sets me off. |
spacegirl21 wrote: "what kind..." doesnt bug me....I hate "oh look, a labradoodle!"
HAHA I get that too bla! If you do, it may be time for a new groomer.
Honestly, though, I think that's the dumbest one I've heard to date
People tend to know mine are OES. Instead I get a lot of. "OH! It's an OES!! I grew up with one!" And then we get the fond memory stories. But not enough to make them want to get another one apparently
We do "Meet the Breed" kind of events at show some times. I used to make the mistake of bringing Belle whose perfection lulls people into thinking this is a good breed to own. Macy is too much like Belle for comfort in this regard, so from here on out I intend to bring Sybil. If she can't make people think 20-30 times before they decide the OES is a good breed for them, no one can.
Kristine |
kerry wrote: My worst has been - Oh look a miniature sheep dog!
Sorry - just sets me off. Huh? Why do they think that? Because he's shaved, or just beacause they think all sheepies are 100lbs plus? People always seem to think that Eggbert (my boy) is a puppy, because he's a smallish guy at 60lbs or so
Here's another peeve of mine...people insisting that there must be something "wrong" with Bert's blue eye Its almost always tourists, since most Alaskans are used to walleyed huskies. |
| Because she fits the standard at 22.5 inches and is square and not leggy? I have no idea why they said that but it still, apparently, bugs me |
Mad Dog wrote: People tend to know mine are OES. Instead I get a lot of. "OH! It's an OES!! I grew up with one!" And then we get the fond memory stories. But not enough to make them want to get another one apparently Kristine we get a lot of that too, but since I spent 5 hours grooming and bathing yesterday I can see their point
Oh and Poor Sybil. |
Mad Dog wrote: We do "Meet the Breed" kind of events at show some times. I used to make the mistake of bringing Belle whose perfection lulls people into thinking this is a good breed to own. Macy is too much like Belle for comfort in this regard, so from here on out I intend to bring Sybil. If she can't make people think 20-30 times before they decide the OES is a good breed for them, no one can. Kristine I run into the same "Belle" problem with Chewie. I get people loving him and all his hair and calm, friendlyness. I am very careful to stress *they are NOT all like this*!!!!! |
| Walk around with a Komondor and no one really cares about your Old English. I think I enjoy explaining what a guard dog is to people more than anything and getting back, "Oh, so he's aggressive?" as Bear is leaning into them or their children for petting and hugs and kisses. Yes, he's very clearly "aggressive." People have a very hard time distinguishing between a guard dog doing his job and a dog that bites for other reasons.
These days, I walk with giant sunglasses and headphones on because it's too much of a circus to stop every time someone has questions. I know that sounds rotten but, sometimes, I just want to walk. I know a fully corded Komondor is interesting to see (and even more interesting flanked my two big OES) and I try to be accommodating but sometimes I like to walk to relax and not be Sally Spokesperson. |
ButtersStotch wrote: These days, I walk with giant sunglasses and headphones on because it's too much of a circus to stop every time someone has questions. I know that sounds rotten but, sometimes, I just want to walk. I know a fully corded Komondor is interesting to see (and even more interesting flanked my two big OES) and I try to be accommodating but sometimes I like to walk to relax and not be Sally Spokesperson. Ive been working on figuring out how to (semi-politely) avoid my dogs fan club at the weekly market, since many times, if Im walking with them, its because were on our way to the "potty area", and my poor pups are often quite desperate!  "theyareoldenglishsheepdogstheyvebeenshavedhiseyeisfinenotheydontbite...
But they DO need to PEE!!!!" |
| Someone asked if Marley was a "doodle" yesterday... but in all fairness she has a funny haircut right now.
And for all of you that want to sway people from getting an OES, feel free to borrow Walter, he lunges and growls at anyone we see while walking! |
Willowsprite wrote: Cadenza wrote: But don't you take into account regional market considerations as well? If in a bad economy the market won't bear the prices you are asking, and you have an 8-pup-litter on your hands, aren't you forced to reduce the prices? Similarly, a silly movie with a sheepdog comes out and all of a sudden everybody wants sheepdogs, don't you get to raise your prices? No, no and no. Hi, Willowsprite. Well, earlier it was pointed out my estimated prices for pups was "way off." But if prices of puppies are essentially divorced from market considerations, then OES puppies are commodities that are essentially "priceless," i.e., the seller gets to decide whatever he or she wants. So if you assume that this is the case, you can't really say that a breeder's puppies are overpriced or underpriced, since is no market to consider in guiding the valuation. This is econ 101 stuff. I got my pup almost 2 years ago from a nice breeder who was a long time acquaintance of a co-worker. I visited him at his home, and though not an ostentatious residence, he and his wife were obviously living comfortably, and raising dogs as a serious hobby. He said he worked on a litter maybe once every 2 or 3 years, and his focus was making sure his pups were going to good owners. He knew I was serious, and I told him I had some experience with an adult OES growing up. He said his usual asking price was $800, but in consideration of our common friends, he asked me to make an offer, which I did ($500) and he accepted it without any hassle. His puppies were beautiful, mostly white heads, the parents (on-site) had great sheepdog temperament had pedigrees AKC and health checks. I'm sure he could have gotten more for his pups, so were his prices "way-off"? Maybe, but did he care? Not one iota. Perhaps he wanted to recoup some of his expenses, but he was more interested in doing good by his puppies. He also has called me a few times since then, just to ask how my boy is doing. Contrast this with the experience I had trying to get a Saint (before I gave up). I went and got recommendations from breed clubs, and finally located a champion breeder in the state at a reasonable distance from me who had a litter, and called him. After covering some basic information, I asked if could I make appointment to see them? Yes, but I had to agree to their price of $2500 per puppy first, before he'd make an appt. I told him that seemed like a lot, I had to think about it. At which point he lost interest in answering my questions about the pups or the breed. So each of these breeders priced their puppies according to their personal priorities and expectations, without regard to market. I wish more breeders would be like the former, rather than the later. Regards, Cadenza. |
Cadenza wrote: I got my pup almost 2 years ago from a nice breeder who was a long time acquaintance of a co-worker. I visited him at his home, and though not an ostentatious residence, he and his wife were obviously living comfortably, and raising dogs as a serious hobby. He said he worked on a litter maybe once every 2 or 3 years, and his focus was making sure his pups were going to good owners. He knew I was serious, and I told him I had some experience with an adult OES growing up. He said his usual asking price was $800, but in consideration of our common friends, he asked me to make an offer, which I did ($500) and he accepted it without any hassle.
His puppies were beautiful, mostly white heads, the parents (on-site) had great sheepdog temperament had pedigrees AKC and health checks. I'm sure he could have gotten more for his pups, so were his prices "way-off"? Maybe, but did he care? Not one iota. Perhaps he wanted to recoup some of his expenses, but he was more interested in doing good by his puppies. He also has called me a few times since then, just to ask how my boy is doing. I am almost afriad to ask this question................you mentioned your breeder works on a litter every 2-3 years & has the parents on site. So is he using the same bitch & stud dog for the litter every 2-3 years? If so, how old are they when he is not using them any longer & how does he continue to breed at that point? If he owns both the stud dog & the bitch then he is obviously not having to pay out a stud fee for breeding (other than the price he paid when he bought the stud dog). So that knocks off somewhere around at least $1500.00 or more from the expense of breeding a litter. At least that's the minimum around my neck of the woods for a stud fee of a nice stud dog with a good pedigree & all health clearances. |
| I wish I had an opening-a-can-of-worms emoticon. |
ButtersStotch wrote: I wish I had an opening-a-can-of-worms emoticon.
Yeah, I suppose you are right on that one.  |
| We get here OOOOh a "Dulux dog" Never what sort of dog is it?
I dont say anything now because that is more how they are known in OZ because of the long association with the company as there icon and besides that I get tired of explaining there an OES>
My husband get embarressed walking the girls with their pink leads and foufous in there hair, not so embarrising now with a boy in the family, but he does come home from walks with sometimes a smile on his face, YEP OES are chick Magnets, they stop him and the doggies and talk to him about them.
Any single guys out there, walk an OES in long coat, guaranteed you will meet girls Syd is becomeing a HUGE chick magnet with his blue eyes & long hair I might have to take over the duties of walking him just in case   |
| I made the mistake of taking Bally on an earlier walk last week, just after school time. We walked past a house with about 20 children playing in the backyard and when they saw us they were literally dangling half over the fence and up trees to watch us and there was a chorus of "Shaggy dog! Shaggyyyyyyyyy Dogggggg!" until we were out of earshot I was sure they were going to start a riot.
Bally, of course, didn't even notice. |
| Tonks and Luna, almost 2 years ago, were $650 a piece from BYB. At the same time, a very reputable breeder, with health certs and championships was $2000 a pup. Price wasn't an issue for me; I had more than the $2000 set aside and earmarked for my dog. My mistake was going window shopping for dogs and falling in love with the BYB pups. What I tell people when they cringe at the $2000 vs the $650 is that in the first year Tonks and Luna probably cost me an additional $3000 each in repeat vet visits and specialty training and "problem solving" books. And that is a conservative estimate, and does not include regular things like food and crates and vaccinations.
The moral to my story is that the better bred dog, the more educated breeder, the one doing it with the betterment of the breed in mind, and not just their financial well being may cost more up front, but will save money in the not-so-long run!!!! |
lisaoes wrote: We get here OOOOh a "Dulux dog"
Never what sort of dog is it?I dont say anything now because that is more how they are known in OZ because of the long association with the company as there icon and besides that I get tired of explaining there an OES> My husband get embarressed walking the girls with their pink leads and foufous in there hair, not so embarrising now with a boy in the family, but he does come home from walks with sometimes a smile on his face, YEP OES are chick Magnets, they stop him and the doggies and talk to him about them. Young people often call out "oh a paint dog" to Tiggy. It cracks me up! Dulux would freak, they've spent all that money on adverts and the teens and 20 somethings dont remember the brand just the dog and that its paint.
Wayne was embarrassed by the hair ties at first too but now happily explains to everyone that his wife does ALL the grooming, and yes it takes hours and yes she's cute and no she cant see without the top knot.
Its always the ladies who stop to oh and ah and ask questions.  |
| erm am I the only one who get's "Mommy look a Polar Bear"?
I am amazed at the number of older people who used to breed "Dulux" dogs that I come accross - "Oh yes of course you did" is running through my mind. If ever I am asked where they can get one I just refer them to the Kennel Club and their list of OES breeders, but it is very rare, as an aweful lot of my conversations about Archie generally contain "He must take a lot of looking after?" or "where do you get him groomed?" I generally do not get the feeling at least in my experience that people see these as a casual trial breed to own. |
| We also get "Look it's a Dulux dog!" Or "Look it's a Durex dog!"
Most people say "Oooh that must take a lot of grooming" which I don't mind as it's true. I bravely walked through a gang of teen boys a few weeks ago (It was walk through them or turn back & not go to the park) who were standing, some sitting on the floor, some casually defacing the bench & bin. Ru was happily peeing on everything so I was thinking "Don't pee on them, don't pee on them" this situation could go either way as usually they either love him or hate him. On this occasion they decided they loved him, and that he was in fact a polar bear. He licked the one on the floor, luckily much to his amusement, I just carried on walking at full speed 
The one that really makes me mad is "Ugh I bet he's hot" well, it's half 8 in the morning, or late in the evening, in England, even in the summer it's only 15-18 degrees. I have a jumper/hoodie on. No, he is NOT hot. He always pants when he walks. I wouldn't walk him if it was over 21, certainly not during the day |
Archies Slave wrote: erm am I the only one who get's "Mommy look a Polar Bear"?
Not where I live, no!
Although, I do like to point out to the customers who really like my dogs, that the polar bears in my art (they are one of my most favorite subjects ) are really just sheepies in disguise!
 |
| That picture is so beautiful. I've missed seeing your art! |
lisaoes wrote: My husband get embarressed walking the girls with their pink leads and foufous in there hair, not so embarrising now with a boy in the family, but he does come home from walks with sometimes a smile on his face, YEP OES are chick Magnets, they stop him and the doggies and talk to him about them.
Any single guys out there, walk an OES in long coat, guaranteed you will meet girls Syd is becomeing a HUGE chick magnet with his blue eyes & long hair I might have to take over the duties of walking him just in case My husband wishes he'd bought a sheepie when he was in his 20's as he said he said George is such a babe magnet. I don't like to burst his bubble and tell him its REALLY George the girls are interested in |
| He knows (as do I). But indulge us our fantasies, please. |
Mim wrote: lisaoes wrote: We get here OOOOh a "Dulux dog" Never what sort of dog is it?I dont say anything now because that is more how they are known in OZ because of the long association with the company as there icon and besides that I get tired of explaining there an OES> My husband get embarressed walking the girls with their pink leads and foufous in there hair, not so embarrising now with a boy in the family, but he does come home from walks with sometimes a smile on his face, YEP OES are chick Magnets, they stop him and the doggies and talk to him about them. Young people often call out "oh a paint dog" to Tiggy. It cracks me up! Dulux would freak, they've spent all that money on adverts and the teens and 20 somethings dont remember the brand just the dog and that its paint. Wayne was embarrassed by the hair ties at first too but now happily explains to everyone that his wife does ALL the grooming, and yes it takes hours and yes she's cute and no she cant see without the top knot.Its always the ladies who stop to oh and ah and ask questions. Here is the Dulux Dog--took this picture when I was in Dublin a few weeks ago! Had not ever seen this before--wouldn't have know what you were referring to had I not just been there!  |
| this was posted on the forum ages ago, but I bookmarked it and still go watch it every once in a while. I love the Dulux adverts!
http://www.worthdoingworthdulux.com.au/ |
Darth Snuggle wrote: this was posted on the forum ages ago, but I bookmarked it and still go watch it every once in a while. I love the Dulux adverts!
http://www.worthdoingworthdulux.com.au/ I would love to see a "making of" program about that ad!!! |
ravenmoonart wrote: Darth Snuggle wrote: this was posted on the forum ages ago, but I bookmarked it and still go watch it every once in a while. I love the Dulux adverts! http://www.worthdoingworthdulux.com.au/ I would love to see a "making of" program about that ad!!! Actually aren't the dogs members of the family to a member here? or is it the performance list? I believe they were well trained pups |
| It was filmed in Sydney, Australia, 8 dogs involved in the Ad, dogs and bitches and at the end of the filming 2 girls came into heat in the last few days before filming wound up The boys were very good under those circumstances. Still behaved really well and filming finished with no delays due to tempting sheepie girls.
Prior to filming the ad, a couple of months of all the 8 training together, production on the ad took 8 weeks.
All in the ad are Champions and some retired from the showring and all 8 have had obedience training so they all worked well together along with their handlers. |
| slightly on the slightly off-topic, my husband was walking katie the OES this evening when he heard someone shout, "look honey it's one of them Siamese dogs!"
i'm not sure what to do other than laugh! last night 3 men stopped him to comment on what a beautiful dog she was. hmm.... |
| Bob also wishes he had a sheepie 35 years ago . Chauncey is also a " chick magnet ". |
| I had Zach at a rest stop several weeks ago and a woman approached me and said "that's the most beautiful POODLE I've ever seen" . She wanted to know if he was a toy or a standard . Before I could think I blurted toy and that he was bloated because he just ate . Zach is a solid 100 lbs and in full coat |
bestdogs wrote: I had Zach at a rest stop several weeks ago and a woman approached me and said "that's the most beautiful POODLE I've ever seen"
. She wanted to know if he was a toy or a standard . Before I could think I blurted toy and that he was bloated because he just ate . Zach is a solid 100 lbs and in full coat LMAO |
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